Ban Torment

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2475839&group_id=186888&atid=919095

"The interesting thing about Torment is that it never prevents the
execution of any move, only its selection." - How Torment should work, from
the move restriction guide on Smogon.

Here is a log of a recent battle to show how Torment is currently bugged:

Faster Torment Heatran vs. my Choice Scarf Tyranitar.

Heatran used Substitute!
Tyranitar used Earthquake!

Heatran used Torment!
Tyranitar can't use Earthquake due to Torment! (this part is wrong, I
should use Earthquake because Torment only blocks the selection of a move,
not its execution)

Heatran used Toxic!
Tyranitar used Struggle! (this is wrong, Tyranitar should theoretically use
Earthquake here given what happened in the previous turn. Tyranitar failed
to use Earthquake, and as such, should not be prevented from using
Earthquake this turn. If it worked properly, this turn should be a Struggle
because the previous turn would be an execution of Earthquake)



This means that right now, if a Pokemon is faster than you, they can always prevent you from using the move you used last turn. Heatran is faster than most bulky Pokemon, and most Pokemon only have one move to hit Heatran. Gengar can abuse similar factors (including much greater Speed), as can Crobat or Aerodactyl.

For those questioning the importance of this bug, I have lost twice to it since I started playing OU again (which, when you consider that I've lost something like 8 times, and 3-4 of those were due to me not properly loading my team so I was fighting without some important EVs, is quite a hefty proportion).

We have a precedent for banning bugged moves (Fly).

Unlike some bugs (the current glitch with Bounce and paralysis, for instance), this bug is actually an increase in power. Moreover, it is impossible to avoid. In this case every single successful use of Torment is bugged.

In light of the seriousness and nature of these bugs, I call for Torment to be banned from the ladder and Smogon Tournaments until it is fixed.

I'm ok with banning it with the idea that it will eventually get fixed and only if Doug or someone else (Colin too) agree to handle fixing it. To be honest, Torment Heatran without the bug is quiet good so I'd like to keep the viability of it around, just not completely axe it.

Basically agreeing with Obi

Huh, I didn't know that...didn't even know people actually used Torment in battles to begin with, but whatever. Good find before people caught on and fucked it up for everyone.

makes sense to me Obi.
Fly was fun lol.
But my LO yanmega with protect laughed at it all.
Good times.

Well, i consider torment banned.
Although i've never seen anyone use it.

Hmm, well Torment does have SOME competitive use so I say we should ban it for now. Fly was fun, though.

what was/is bugged about Fly?

sorry i'm fairly new. =X

Fly's base power was through the roof, effectively OHKOing everything, if I recall correctly.

Fly had a glitch where it would do impossible amounts of damage (in the thousands of percent and above) to Pokemon; even things like Hoothoot could OHKO things like Regirock with Fly.

I agree that it should be banned, as i thought trick should be banned until it was fixed. However, it shouldn't take very long to fix (I'm assuming here), and it's not all that popular anyway. A fly-like ban should suffice.

Syberia said:

"Ban Trick"

You can't differentiate between that and Torment, as they're both "bugged" in the since that they're not a 100% simulation. Which is your basic argument, is it not?

Click to expand...

I thought Trick was fixed?


Edit: Bounce Glitch: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2503042&group_id=186888&atid=919095

I wasn't aware. Deleted.

So this post isn't a complete waste of time, though, I'll agree that things that don't work correctly should be banned, if they give any advantage whatsoever.

What is the Bounce glitch, btw? I don't think I've ever used the move on Shoddy.

It was fixed. I only mentioned Trick to compare and contrast that bug with Torment. I believe that the Torment bug is more worthy of being banned because it's impossible to avoid the bug. You could use Trick (when it was bugged) without abusing the bug, in theory. I wouldn't have opposed a Trick ban, I was really just adding that in there. I'll take it out since it's confusing people.

I agree with a temporary ban on Torment, since at current this bug is abusable. Not much else to be said.

why ban it can't they just fix it

Normally I'd say deal, but this is a moderater, not just some user complaining. I do see this possibly being abused, but it's not much different than, say, Yawn (though it is bad game mechanics, I'm aware)

EDIT: @stormtrooper: it's not always that easy. Trick took quite some time to get fixed.

Damn. I was expecting this to be a joke topic and I was all ready to laugh.

Glad my Move Restriction Guide came in handy.

Anyhow, I looked at the Shoddy code and it shouldn't be hard to fix. The part where the move gets cancelled if it was the last move used needs to be removed.

I say give it a temporary ban, till it's fixed. I never heard of the bounce glitch, so fine to know.
EDIT: I also banned the move from my tournament

This is just like the glitch for Rain dance, where if you use it twice, it stops ;_;

darkartisan said:

This is just like the glitch for Rain dance, where if you use it twice, it stops ;_;

Click to expand...

No it isn't. The Torment glitch puts the Torment user at a huge advantage, whereas the Rain Dance glitch (if it exists) puts the Rain Dance user at a disadvantage.

Veedrock said:

Normally I'd say deal, but this is a moderater, not just some user complaining.

Click to expand...

You should judge ideas on their merit, not who says them.

I do see this possibly being abused, but it's not much different than, say, Yawn (though it is bad game mechanics, I'm aware)

Click to expand...

What's the problem with Yawn?

yawn did hit pokemon even while flying, diving, digging, or bouncing but i dunno how that is comparable to this. also i thought the yawn glitch got fixed so if there is a totally different one, please tell me so i can edit this post lol.

I'd insert an Anti-Obi comment here, what with him being the worst mod on Smogon currently and all, according to some Trou post, but I really can't be fucked.

As it looks, Torment is a little like Taunt: Most people with choice items Tormented would switch without wait.

Because of the it works (no using the same move consecutively) and the fact that it's making things Struggle, I actually wonder the effects of it ingame, if choicers also start Struggling when Tormented. As far as things go, Shoddy is too untrustworthy for testing moves, and to me, Torment testing should be placed under Wifi Only, so once we know how it works in the metagame (utterly inferior to Taunt) then we can fix it in Shoddy.

Also, I can't believe I'm agreeing with the same guy known as a hypocritical ass and an awesome guy stating this, but stating that Torment should be banned may be pretty good overall. However, as I stated before, it should be stated in a wifi battle how long 5 turns of Torment runs through. If it's correct, then it may look like this...

Fagtran used Sub.
Gaydar used EQ.

Fagtran used Torment.*start counting from here*
Gaydar can't EQ thanks to Torment.

Fagtran used Sub.
Gaydar can't EQ thanks to Torment.

Continue this until the fool runs.

But in all sincerity, Obi, who the fuck runs Torment these days when Taunt is obviously tactically superior and Encore is a simply darksided version of the move?

We already know how Torment works on Wi-Fi. Shoddy has it wrong, as I posted. You seem to be confused as to how Torment works.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/torment

Taunt and Torment are completely unrelated. That's like asking "Why would anyone ever use Flamethrower when Earthquake exists?". They serve different purposes, and different Pokemon use them.

Raverist said:

But in all sincerity, Obi, who the fuck runs Torment these days

Click to expand...

I've been fucked over quite a few times by Torment-Heatran, and now I know why... So yeah, people do in fact abuse this.