DPP OU Team Beautiful Death

I've been using this team for a few months now, so I guess now's as good a time as any to retire it and try something new. It started out as just a fun team (it even used to have Flareon!) but I was enjoying myself so much that I started to sail up the ladder and eventually decided I may as well just get to the top before I retire it. I obviously win a lot with it, but it just doesn't feel like a top-tier team if you know what I mean? I'll occassionally go on losing streaks of 2-3 games which is just unacceptable at this level. I don't normally post RMT's (I've only posted one in all my time at Smogon!) but I recently let Havak use it and he seems to be having fun and success with it so why not?



Yeah, nothing unique here. Sorry! This is a pretty typical Platinum team. The ultimate goal here is to remove anything that stops Infernape from sweeping and then let him loose.



Metagross @ Occa Berry
Adamant
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Very standard lead at the moment...I had a lot more success with it a few months ago when Azelf was the big dog but now people have caught onto it and his impact has been limited a bit. I think the main advantage this had was that many people expected Stealth Rock or Trick and seldom expected to be smacked by 405 Atk in the first turn.

Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch gets Azelf and Aero out of the way early, whilst EQ + BP in conjunction with Occa Berry puts LeadApe on his arse. Other common leads like Tyranitar, Gengar and Jirachi all lose out. The only common lead I ever really switch out of is Bronzong. The Fire-resist berry also occassionally allows me to catch out a Scarftran who might otherwise give Infernape problems later. After taking out the opponent's lead, I'll look to use Explosion on anything worthwhile. A true suicide lead.



Starmie @ Leftovers
Timid
Natural Cure
160 HP / 40 Def / 92 SpA / 216 Spe
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

Starmie will always have a special place in my heart but this is the teamslot I've always been the least comfortable with. Salamence is such a key member of this team that I'd really rather keep SR away. It's also bad news for Infernape who is already delicate enough. Only one of my team resists Spikes and I hate TS so I feel a Spinner is neccesary.

She's excellent at switching into random assortments of threats and forcing them away or just generally stalling against something like Vaporeon or Blissey till an opening comes up. Most importantly perhaps, she counters DD LO Gyara thanks to the defensive investment, and handily deals with enemy Infernape.

With the already high usage of CBTar and the increase in popularity of CBScizor, I think this is the last time in the forseeable future that I'll have a Starmie on one of my teams. Having said all that, she has been a great team member.



Salamence @ Choice Specs
Modest
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump

That's right - Specsmence! I'll occassionally have people shout at me and call me a noob for using this over the admittedley superior DDMence or MixMence but that's usually just because they're bitter that their switch-in just got OHKO'd. I'll usually take every chance to switch this guy in and start raining death down on the opponent. Tbh, I rarely predict with this guy and just rely on the Dragon attacks. They're so powerful that even Steel types lose huge chunks of their health. Interestingly enough Hydro Pump sees a lot more use than Fire Blast here. It's neutral coverage and high base power make it a great choice when I'm in a tough spot.

I do die a little inside when I get walled by Blissey though so I did test out DM/FB/BB/Roost MixMence for a week or so and found him to be very effective but his lack of a consistent sweeping attack led me to make the decision to go back to Specsmence and his formidable Dragon Pulse.

Intimidate is massively helpful in all sorts of situations.



Swampert @ Leftovers
Relaxed
200 HP / 228 Def / 80 SpA
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Stealth Rock

Swampert is such a fantastic Pokemon and functions as the lynchpin of the team and my "go-to-guy." Very rarely fails to lay Stealth Rock unless I get stung by a surprise HP Grass from Heatran or Zapdos. Stealth Rock is obviously incredibly important to both Scizor and his U-Turn and Infernape. Not much to say here, you all know how this guy rolls.

Hydro Pump gets the nod here as it allows him to combat Rotom formes a little better (usually 3HKOs whereas Surf 4-5HKOs and Waterfall is just crap against a Poke that spams WoW). Sometimes I get to unleash a Torrent boosted Hydro Pump which packs a lot more power than most people are used to seeing from a Swampert.



Scizor @ Choice Band
Adamant
Technician
208 HP / 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 8 Spe
- Bullet Punch
- U-Turn
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Another set that has decreased in effectiveness as it becomes more and more popular. I wouldn't be surprised if next months usage stats show that the Choice Band set has surpassed the SD set...it is far more effective after all. Pursuit takes care of the usual suspects that completely shut down Infernape such as Starmie and even Tentacruel and stops Gengar from his revenge-killing duties. U-Turn chips away at Pokemon such as Zapdos, Rotom and Gyarados to put them in Infernape's KO range. Bullet Punch is insurance against a lot of sweepers and a fantastic one at that. Superpower doesn't see much use except on the odd Blissey who wants to stay in and Flamethrower me.



Infernape @ Life Orb
Naive
12 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Ice

If Carlsberg made Pokemon it would probably be this chimp right here. The best late game sweeper since Deoxys-E in my opinion. Most importantly, he doesn't require any set-up (note that my team has zero set up Pokemon as I have came to question the value of set-up moves in Plat). I hold this guy back for as long as possible then break him out when I can see the opponent is defenseless against him. Flamethrower over Fire Blast and I have never once regretted that choice...by the time 'Ape comes out the opponent is usually sufficiently weakened that Flamethrower can do everything that Fire Blast can.

EVs are a little different here. This dude lands at 342 Speed, one point ahead of the old standard 'Ape who runs at 341 (I understand people are starting to run 330 now so I might change that sometime). This is mainly because I'm quite weak to enemy Mixape myself if the foe manages to Pursuit away my Starmie so it's nice to have a revenge killer.

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Threat List

Problem Pokemon in Red.

Tyranitar = Swampert's a great switch into pretty much all variants but if for some reason I suspect a CB Crunch I'll head to Scizor instead. Metagross is a decent counter to if he stays alive long enough. Scizor can revenge kill DDTar's with Bullet Punch.

Gyarados = Starmie's a good switch-in to bulkyish Gyarados but LO variants cause me a bit of concern. Starmie can still come in but any prior damage can spell her doom. If worst comes to worst I can whittle him down with Swampert's Ice Beams + LO + SR damage and then try to revenge kill with Scizor's BP. Can be a bit desperate at times but I'm fairly certain I've never been outright swept by a Gyarados.

Infernape = Starmie is a great counter and my own Infernape can usually revenge kill. Scizor's Bullet Punch can do aroung 40-50% in the worst case scenario. Metagross' Occa Berry sometimes allows me to pick him off easily.

Azelf = Thank God people tend to waste this thing as a lead because an offensive Azelf can cause me a whole shitload of headaches. Scizor can do around 80% with Bullet Punch and Azelf usually can't OHKO Salamence but this one can be a bit ugly.

Electivire = Swampert shuts the thing down all day unless it has HP Grass. Metagross can take it head-on. Infernape can revenge kill if it gets down to about 80ish%. Only one electric attack on my team which limits his potential too.

Heracross = Life is Hera-weak. Salamence is my best switch in and he's a shaky one at the best of times. Plenty of chances to revenge kill him though and Scarf versions usually don't have the power to be too problematic.

Salamence = Swampert comes in quite happily but I need to be wary around LO Draco Meteors and rely on one of my Steel types to lighten the load. Scizor's Bullet Punch helps to ensure that DDMence very rarely sweeps me.

Togekiss = Togekiss is pretty gay, I imagine I'd have a lot more problems with this thing if it wasn't so rare. Scizor's Bullet Punch 2HKO's the less defensive versions (30% chance of 2HKOing 252/0 versions and that's without factoring in SR). Sala's Draco Meteor tears him apart. I was in two minds about whether to put this dude in red but with Zapdos and Rotom's omniprescency, this thing is just too rare for me to worry about too much.

Gengar = Scizor's bitch...Bullet Punch is an OHKO if he stays in and Pursuit OHKOs regardless of switch. Starmie can revenge kill, Pert 2HKOs.

Lucario = A bit paper-weak to this thing but I've never been swept by it as it just can't set up on anything except Scizor locked into Pursuit. Even resisted Bullet Punches and Dragon attacks leave too much of a dent for Lucario to set up safely, especially when you consider his Life Orb. Weak to SpecsLuke, but who isn't?

Starmie = I try to Pursuit this chap ASAP but I need to be careful about switching into Surf. Spinner versions are never a problem and offensive versions get 2HKO'd by Swampert if they get past Scizor.

Weavile = Scizor, Swampert, Metagross, even Infernape in a pinch.

Dugtrio = Not too weak to this guy, Infernape is the only guy who's especially vulnerable to a revenge kill...Metagross can defend himself with his high defense and Bullet Punch if neccesary.

Porygon-Z = This guy hits like a nuke.

(I'm starting to regret adding so many new Pokemon to the threat list round about now)

Machamp - This guy is so tough to counter but I have plenty of power to get rid of him...Mence OHKOs and Gross, Ape and Scizor 2HKO. Sometimes I'll just explode on him when I see him as a lead because he is so friggin' annoying.

Snorlax = Scizor and Metagross do well, Infernape can revenge kill if I don't let him get too many Curses.

Zapdos = Swampert's usually my first switch in as he can survive HP Grass provided the opponent doesn't have LO. Salamence has little to fear if he does turn out to have HP Grass and can OHKO with ease. Scizor wears him down with repeated U-Turns. Still a bitch to fight.

Suicune = Probably the biggest threat to the team. If you have a bulky Surf/Ice Beam/CM/Rest Suicune on your team then you have a good chance of beating me if you're not stupid. My lack of set-up presence means I can't even threaten him whilst he sleeps. I just pray that Metagross is still alive so I can BOOM. I need to hit this guy hard and fast. LOCune isn't as much of a problem but he still has the potential to leave a mark in my team.

Breloom = I do have problems with Breloom but I don't think it's because I'm neccesarily weak to it...it's probably more to do with the fact that Breloom is a dick. I usually let 'Gross or 'Pert sleep and use Salamence to force him out.

Ninjask = No phazer so I need to be wary but they almost always lead and I can normally beat them with some clever use of Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch. If they do complete the pass, I can always Explode on the recipient.

Metagross = Swampert's as good a switch-in as any. They usually lead and I can use my Metagross to strip them of aout 60% of their health from the get-go. Salamence can get in and OHKO if I'm careful. Infernape revenges.

Heatran = Starmie, Swampert and Salamence all like to switch in to him. Infernape can even help out in a pinch.

Celebi = Scizor loves to switch in and seems to spend 90% of my matches paralysed as a result. Salamence is a safe switch in if I watch out for Thunder-Wave and can OHKO with Fire Blast. Infernape OHKOs too.

Jirachi = Metagross and Swampert counter CM versions, Scarf versions don't have the offensive power or the coverage to trouble me.

Mamoswine = Tricky to switch into but Swampert can come in once or twice and this guy just really can't switch into anything on my team.

Yanmega = Show me a team without Blissey, Zapdos or Rotom that isn't weak to Yanmega. Double Bullet Punches are a godsend. I'm thankful not many people use late-game Yanmega.

Kingdra = Swampert can handle DD versions but if it's one of those Restalking versions I have to use Metagross, Scizor or even use Mence and hope he doesn't Sleep Talk Outrage. Rain Dance teams are always tough...

Roserade = Salamence only fears certain Weather Balls and HP Ice. Scizor can sneak in and OHKO with Bullet Punch before I get hit by HP Fire. Infernape revenges.

Scizor = A bit problematic in the hands of a smart opponent. Doesn't get many chances to switch in though and usually wears himself down before he can do too much damage (Roosting versions are dangerous though).

Gliscor = Swampert and Starmie can switch in and KO...Salamence can OHKO once I've established that they aren't Jolly Ice Fang variants. Infernape revenges.

Empoleon = Another one of those "if you have one of these you can probably beat me." I've been in matches where I've been sailing to victory only for this guy to pop up and sweep me.

Magnezone = Scizor is such a key member that losing him to this creep really hurts my team. Thankfully I'm usually U-Turning all over the place so the opponent has to play well to trap him. Swampert counters HP Grass-less versions. Lack of Electrical resists means this thing hurts.

Flygon = Swampert manhandles him, Scizor revenge kills, Infernape revenge kills Scarfless versions.

Rhyperior = Swampert takes him on. Starmie, Salamence and Infernape can OHKO. Scizor does shitloads with Bullet Punch.

Rotom-A = Usually use Swampert and his Hydro Pump (Leaf Storm versions are problematic as a result). I sometimes bring Mence in to him and the opponent can't help but try to burn him only to get blown away by Draco Meteor.

____________________________________

So there we are. RMT!

Swampert needs more defense / hp or else it will be OHKOed by salamances +1 life orb outrage. I'd suggest using the standard spread: 252 hp / 216 def / 40 sp. atk.

Since i actually have a winning record against this team, i feel i have the right to comment. Out of the 2 or 3 times i beat this team, the member you always had trouble with was my Substitute Life Orb Heatran. It gets a free switch in on Scizors CB locked Bullet Punch / Pursuit, and it says Starmie and Pert are your first switch ins. Life Orb Hidden Power [Grass] easily OHKOs Pert, and usually OHKOs Starmie with SR down. Salamence is also being 2HKO'd by Life Orb Fire Blast after SR.

Thank god though, this is pretty rare Heatran set. Very nice team though, and youve beaten me with it, so obviously youve showed you can work around the potential Tran weak.

I've used this team for maybe a week now, and I had a great deal of success with it for the most-part. Especially in the first two days, as I managed to beat some major players and get to 19th on the leaderboard, before as you say, it became a bit predictable and I wasn't able to employ the 'same-old' strategies like I did at first. It's a very good team though, as it has kept me in the top 50 the whole time I've used it (I think I'm still there now).

I must admit, I never really had a problem with Azelf. Even when it wasn't a lead, I was able to toast it with either Metagross or Scizor, but if you had problems with it then I'll take your word for it as you've obviously used the team more than me :)

Gyarados is of more concern than I thought it'd be, as I've been completely swept by DD Gyarados maybe twice. One time through Starmie being done-in by Pursuit; and another when everything had a bit of prior damage and Metagross was down already (so I couldn't use that favoured duel Bullet Punch revenge kill technique I've come to love).

Suicune is a worry, but I've never lost to one yet. I think you have enough of a 'check' against it. If you can predict the Rest, Metagross is in. You can Earthquake first and fake the Choice Band thanks to Occa Berry, then Explode the next turn as they'll be unlikely to switch out. If it comes to it, you can risk Infernape using Close Combat or a 'Mence Draco Meteor (follow by a Bullet Punch if you fail to KO and can just about end it).

Zapdos with HP Grass is a slag, I'm not sure how I always beat it. But with the advent of Scizor, they invest heavily in physical Defence, so a Draco Meteor is usually the best choice once you can lure them into trying to hurt Swampert. Infernape can revenge kill them under 50% most of the time.

Porygon calls for a Bullet Punch.

You're right on the Yanmega, if it's in the hands of a good player. I'll always Bullet Punch it with Metagross, then most of the time try and get Scizor in after assessing the situation to get Scizor in. Then U-turn and set up Stealth Rock with Swampert ASAP, it's usually over for Yanmega then.

Empoleon is trouble.. Magnezone with Magnet Rise sucks too.

But honestly, there's not much wrong with the team. After using it myself, I can't really find much area for improvement. Starmie tends to be the 'weak link' so to speak, but it's often helped an incredible amount as well. Without Rapid Spin, stall teams give this team even more of a nightmare as it's incredibly tough to get Infernape in with all those entry hazards. Starmie is one of the few that can do damage to Rotom. This helped me bring down Imperfectluck, as when combined with Stealth Rock and a bit of smart-switching, I was able to bring it down, Rapid Spin and have enough prior damage to sweep.

The only other problem is relying on Meteor Mash, Hydro Pump, Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. These moves have often cost me matches, and by often I mean over 50% of the time. I hate resorting to moves with such accuracy, but there's really not much alternative. I considered Iron Head over Meteor Mash, but Meteor Mash continues to be the worst move in the game by tempting you with that power and Attack raise chance; then missing all the time.

But yeah, it's a great team and IMO, can't be improved. So it's best to just retire it and start something new. It's great fun to use though and I enjoyed it. Thanks Lee. Give this team a 'Beautiful Death'.

Nasty Plot Fire Blast from Infernape to 4 HP/0 Sp Def Salamence: 79.15%-93.35% OHKO with SR up.

This calculation above is why you should switch to standard Mixape
(keep EVs) and change Flamethrower to Fire Blast which, after an NP, rivals SD Luke's Close Combat.

sora13 said:

Nasty Plot Fire Blast from Infernape to 4 HP/0 Sp Def Salamence: 79.15%-93.35% OHKO with SR up.

This calculation above is why you should switch to standard Mixape
(keep EVs) and change Flamethrower to Fire Blast which, after an NP, rivals SD Luke's Close Combat.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what Lee said: Most importantly, he doesn't require any set-up (note that my team has zero set up Pokemon as I have came to question the value of set-up moves in Plat)

There is absolutely no guarentee that Ape will get a Nasty Plot. Hidden Power [Ice] is going to help a lot more late game than Nasty Plot would, and Plot-less Ape is a lot better late game than those with plot, seeing as almost every team has Salamence from my recent laddering experiences. It also gives Lee an efficient revenge killer to MixMence, something that an Infernape lacking Hp Ice cannot do.

panamaxis said:

Swampert needs more defense / hp or else it will be OHKOed by salamances +1 life orb outrage. I'd suggest using the standard spread: 252 hp / 216 def / 40 sp. atk.

Click to expand...

I'll bear it in mind. Thanks.

august said:

Words about Heatran

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Haha yeah, now that you mention it I was supposed to mention that any HP Grass Heatran is a bit of a dick. By the time I realise he has HP Grass I'm usually burying my Swampert and Starmie needs to start thinking twice about switching in.

Havak said:

Big Post

Click to expand...

Thanks Havak, I really appreciate your insight (now even moreso than usual as I know you've tested the team a fair bit). I haven't had a big problem with the low accuracy moves tbh...I guess you're just unlucky. ;(

sora13 said:

Nasty Plot Fire Blast from Infernape to 4 HP/0 Sp Def Salamence: 79.15%-93.35% OHKO with SR up.

This calculation above is why you should switch to standard Mixape
(keep EVs) and change Flamethrower to Fire Blast which, after an NP, rivals SD Luke's Close Combat.

Click to expand...

august hit the nail on the head here...I don't want to be dependant on finding a set-up turn especially on a Pokemon as notoriously frail as Infernape. You say that OHKOing Salamence with SR and one turn of setup is reason enough to change my set. That's cool and all but my Infernape OHKO's Salamence without SR, without any setup. I just don't stand to gain enough by running Nasty Plot.

As for Fire Blast, I did say in my op: "Flamethrower over Fire Blast and I have never once regretted that choice...by the time 'Ape comes out the opponent is usually sufficiently weakened that Flamethrower can do everything that Fire Blast can." I'm not an accuracy freak by any means as you can see by the presence of Hydro Pump, Meteor Mash, Fire Blast etc elsewhere in my team but for the duties that my Infernape is here to carry out, Flamethrower is by far the best option.

Thanks guys.

I have battled tons of times against this team, and it works pretty well, but I see one poke giving you lots of trouble: gyara, specially if it is LO or your starmie is not at 100%.
You say you can weaken it with swampy IB and then revenge kill with Scizor BP, but Swampy is 2HKOed by LO gyara, and IB won't do much damage
LOZapdos is another problem to this team, hitting mence very hard and OHKOing the rest of your team (unless metagross still has the berry, which means it can explode on it)

Vaporeon is a pokemon that gives your team trouble, since it can wall most pokes of your team

I've always found that Celebi running a moveset something along the lines of Perish Song / Leech Seed / U-Turn / Recover is a good way to counter Calm Mind Suicune because it's forced to switch out due to Perish Song and Leech Seed slowly wears it down while sapping HP. Recover + LS is the most annoying combination to set upon your opponent and it greatly utilizes Celebi's solid defenses. Even so, boosted Ice Beams will hurt Celebi but it's really doing just as followed and getting out of there; 1st/2nd turn, proceed to do either Perish Song first and Leech Seed second, vice versa; 3rd turn, Recover if any substantial damage was taken; if not, U-Turn to a bulky Water or something that Suicune can't do much damage to, then wait until Perish Song activates. Another possibility that comes to mind is replacing Metagross with Bronzong; he walls Suicune nicely and can sleep him with Hypnosis and then you can bring out one of your sweepers such as Salamence and mop up the floor with Draco Meteor, or if he already has up some Calm Minds you can attack from the physical side with your CB Scizor or Infernape. A lot of people want to go for all out offense with Salamence because they prefer the sweeping potential that it has, so most times they will go for a BandMence, and in your situation, SpecsMence, but MixMence is a great asset to nearly any team due to his large coverage. He can put a noticeable dent on about half the threats you listed, even though he can't hope to switch in on something like Kingdra's Outrage for example. As for Azelf, Tyranitar will almost always take him down since most Azelf run a moveset consisting along the lines of Psychic / Explosion / Fire Blast and Stealth Rock or Nasty Plot as a filler, and only fears a Hidden Power Fighting (which isn't too common nowadays) or a boosted Grass Knot. He is also a great Zapdos counter in general due to the Special Defense boost from Sandstorm and won't take too much from moves such as Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Grass. Possibly use a CB Tar over Scizor to counter those two maybe? Try it if you want, but just throwing out suggestions.

Sorry if this was less of a rate and more of a discussion on how you can fight off those threats that give you a hard time. Greatly structured teams like this don't really need much help because even a small change can abrupt the delicate balance within the team. Well I hope you consider some of these things and I'm wishing you the best of luck with your next team. Good luck Lee! =)

Beautiful death = lee? Damn, didn't know that I beat lee :P.

I agree with the OP, this is a good team, it is not a great team (especially compared to lee's last marowack team, now that was great). Lee's a great player and reached no.1 with this team, but that's to the credit of his play.

Metagross wants to be scarfed imo. It can at least be a good counter against gyara. I'm not big on a lead blowing up early anyways and you need that all rounded revenge killer. Keeping maggy alive longer will also help against PZ. Maggy becomes a problem, but I think it's worth it. You can even keep bullet punch even if it looks redundant as a plan B. Looking at the threat list, that should give you a viable tool against a lot of those big threats, you just lose your specialist lead, that's all.

Not too much to say after that really, changing too much of your team would be silly (might as well build a new one if you want to change more than 2 members on a team). Good luck lee. My personal belief is that this team can be great for laddering (as shown by your results) but a bit problematic in tournaments, where you have to win every game and not just most of it.

PS: Why is it that when lee posts a team he automatically gets 5 stars. I'm not trying to get lee down, he hasn't done anything wrong. My beef is that a team only gets a good rating here if either A. it is made by a very good player, B. if it got really high on the ladder or C. it has some kind of gimmick, either a new set that no one's used to seeing or off the charts presentation. I've seen lots of great teams here, every bit as good as this that get no credit at all (A,B nor C don't need to be met for a team to be good).

Had to get that off my chest, it's not good for anyone when good teams don't get noticed.

Let's avoid double posting (still trying to figure things out with this team)

Also, Lee gets five stars because mods / people with badges can give a thread stars. Lee may have done it himself, or his team is just that good. Either way it doesn't matter too much does it?

animenagai said:

PS: Why is it that when lee posts a team he automatically gets 5 stars. I'm not trying to get lee down, he hasn't done anything wrong. My beef is that a team only gets a good rating here if either A. it is made by a very good player, B. if it got really high on the ladder or C. it has some kind of gimmick, either a new set that no one's used to seeing or off the charts presentation. I've seen lots of great teams here, every bit as good as this that get no credit at all (A,B nor C don't need to be met for a team to be good).

Click to expand...

A) Obviously Lee is a very good player as he reached number 1.
B) It got to number 1...
C) well nothing here.

Lees Marowak team involved lots of UU pokemon and it still got very high on the ladder so I guess that is a "gimmick".

panamaxis said:

A) Obviously Lee is a very good player as he reached number 1.
B) It got to number 1...
C) well nothing here.

Lees Marowak team involved lots of UU pokemon and it still got very high on the ladder so I guess that is a "gimmick".

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Once again, I'm not dogging on lee. He did nothing wrong, this is a good team, it should get recognised. I'm just talking about all the other teams that didn't.

I've played both teams btw, and I can safely say that the marowack team is head and shoulders better than this one, given their respective time frames. It's got nothing to do with how OU or gimmicky it was, it just played better.

This is a great team Lee, and its success speaks for itself, but I have a few minor nitpicks to bring to your attention. Most teams that employ the tyranitar>Gyarados stratagy hurt this team as your starmie, your main gyarados counter, is easily revenge pursuited by tyranitar opening you up to gyrados late game. Now I know that "When this poke is down this one owned you!!!!!11" arguments are garbage, but tyranitar can take out starmie 90% of the time, so just somthing to watch for.

I also see that you acknowledged you're zapdos weak, and I'm sure you can play around this. But if mence has taken too much resisual damage, then an offensive or toxistall zapdos can really hinder this team. Toxistall is more potent because it has the ability to hit ape, your main revenge killer, with toxic severely limiting its ability to do it's job in sweeping or coming back to kill zapdos later.

I admire your success with this team and I'm sure these minor points are things that you can play around and your results speak for themselves.

-chaos 9

Beautiful death = lee? Damn, didn't know that I beat lee :P.

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Haha yeah, you did. But I think I'm still like 4-1 against you, right? :) I agree with what you're saying about the team having a lot of faults though (and I liked the Marowak team better too!)

Well dude, I love how you pass this team off as your own when in fact you barely made any of it. You didn't even give credit where it's due (you and I both know who I'm talking about). You even agreed not to make an RMT on this team, and when you did you gave away the Scizor and Swampert EV spreads my friend spent months perfecting. But what people do for a little internet fame. =/

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You know, I have absolutley no idea what you're talking about to the point that I'm just going to assume that you're a troll. I'm loling at the fact that you say your "friend" spent months perfecting those EV spreads when I'm fully aware that those EV spreads are ineffective according to X-Act's app. I'm actually not gonna delete your posts just yet because I would fucking love to see your proof.

EDIT: deleted the posts now, PMing user.

The only problem I can see on this team is nape not hitting max speed. I think winning a speed tie is much more important then 12 atk evs. Idont see how boosting Napes CCby 3 points helps.

Arguable it's more beneficial for Infernape to move last against other Infernape due to the defense drops of Close Combat.

Lee, how did you come up with those ev spreads?
The placement of evs suggests to me that you must have used a damage calculator to make the scizor able to survive some special attack it would have otherwise been unable to live through (with those evs in hp instead), and the swampert to be able to get some certain xHKOs.
-Personally like panamaxis stated, I'd

Then again, on a tyranitar spread I used I put some random evs in special defense before without any real purpose.

The only reason I'd consider not deleting his posts is because then he could return (assuming he isn't banned on top of that) and state that your deleting his posts is proof of your guilt and attempt to cover up the trooth.

As for NPnape, it can tear through some stall teams (IPL was forced to add starmie into his team to combate nape), so it does have some merits. However, I wouldn't recomend it in your team for the obvious reasons discussed above. Your spread is much better for a cleaning sweeper.

I personally recieved criticism for not using any set up sweepers when I posted my last RMT; it was suggested that I had to. Normally it is hard to find time, although, with the current team I'm using DDdos appears useful simply due to the added speed, but actually normally hasn't swept nearly as well as CBdos.
The above doesn't really have much to do with your team, but would at least be ramblings in agreemet with your decision to not include any set up sweepers.

I would suggest swampert perhaps as a lead, but the now common lead-metagross may simply be explosion happy and blow up on it (protect?). It would counter the associated increase in lead-apes (which typically lack grass knot; protect could be used to scout, however, if you add it). Protect may simply be a waste of a move; I don't know.
Really, this is a solid team, and it is generally rather hard to make suggestions to the team's syneregy and function without actually using it to gain experience with it.
If Havak hasn't mentioned anything, I certainly can't.

Lee, I believe I've played you before. I'm not sure how often, perhaps only once or maybe more. I just remembered the name, and then being surprised to see this interesting name I've not seen before up exceptionally high on the leaderboard.
Unfortunately, my memory isn't good enough to remember the results, or even what team I was using to play you with. If I payed attention to your name at all enough to remember it, it suggests to me that you probably won (or at the very least it was a good/hard battle).
...hmm, actually, thinking more now, I remember a battle against a user of specsmence, where they got a crit with draco meteor on my swampert, and I commented "=/", to which they stated it would have OHKOed anyway, and after my retort (that it typically only does ~90%) they calmy pointed out that they have specs (which I was a bad enough played not to figure out from the lack of leftovers and lifeorb recoil).
-If that was use, I apolagize for being somewhat of an offensive/ignorant player lol.
If that wasn't you, well, then there are more "noobs" who use specsmence and manage to OHKO many things that otherwise survive. Being caught off guard and losing to something is no reason to wine and complain, and certainly doesn't mean that you are a noob for using it.
In my above example from a battle, it would have been a OHKO against my shaky counter regardless, but a mixmence would have simply died to ice beam after swampert barely hung on. I would not at all say one is inferior to another; even while one can be inferior to another in the context of a certain team.

Eh, I'm not sure if I provided much substance in my post which is for the most part ramblings that I wrote down, but for the most part I don't think I'm proposing any real changes, and only theorymoning in support of your current decisions.

Good team. Getting to 1 on the leaderboard speeks for itself.
I get the same fealing (of a team not being good) often; sometimes way to many game seem like they could have gone either way, and I just barely won them (through luck, it seems).

TeaBag said:

Arguable it's more beneficial for Infernape to move last against other Infernape due to the defense drops of Close Combat.

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That argue may hold true for starter Infernape, but considering the chipped 12% HP from SR and LO recoil that may spell otherwise. Without any significant EV, Infernape does roughly 79-93% dmg.

Lee said:

Haha yeah, you did. But I think I'm still like 4-1 against you, right? :) I agree with what you're saying about the team having a lot of faults though (and I liked the Marowak team better too!)

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lol You even remember the score. Mind you, so do I. It was around a year ago after I qualified for the World Cup as a sub. I felt pretty confident. At the same time, your team was here on smogon and it was the only team I saw you use. Despite being confident, despite knowing your team EXACTLY, I still couldn't beat it no matter how many times I played it.

The only reason I sound negative in this thread is because I know what Lee is capable of, and this is not his best.

Not that I'm gonna lose to him ever again though, butbeing second best in the world deserves some respect :P

I was actually referring to my score against you specifically with this team but that story made me smile! :)

Lee said:

I was actually referring to my score against you specifically with this team but that story made me smile! :)

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Funny that :P

Very solid team, Lee. I appreciate the creativity too (you don't see many SpecsMence's nowadays, or at least I don't. And the no set-uppers thing is pretty cool).

*****

While I can't think of anything major that would make this team better, have you ever tried using SR on Metagross (maybe over Bullet Punch?) and either Protect or Roar on Swampert? Protect Pert is a pain in the ass, and you know full well how helpful Roar is :)