The Fury of the Storm

Saved for "Team Building Process" edit, coming as soon as possible

*Post may be deleted otherwise*

Saved for "Counters" edit, coming as soon as possible.

*Post may be deleted otherwise*

This is very close to my own team, Flash, so I think I can fix her up.

My first query is Vaporeon. Stuff hits too hard, too fast, for Vappy to be coming in and pulling off a successful wish. Referring to the top 10, a large chunk of it can beat Vap 1 v. 1. Which is why I suggest...
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Swampert @ Leftovers
Relaxed l 240 Hp / 216 Def / 56 Def

~ Ice Beam
~ Earthquake
~ Roar
~ Protect
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Protect can give some healing, always useful, and scouting, even more useful. Roar is for Phazing, and again, scouting. IB + EQ gets the best coverage IMO.

My second issue is Salamence. OH LOOK WHO IS #1! Yep, with Scizor on 1/3 of all teams, Salamence is generally getting one attack off before being revenged at the hands(claws?) of Scizor. Therefore, a different sweeper is required. I will suggest an offensive sweeper, none other than
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Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 Hp


~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge / Ice Fang
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Simple set, simple spread. Ice Fang is solely for OHKOing Mence without SR up, and maybe a little Latias killing. Stone Edge hits Zapdos, though, for an OHKO after SR and a DD.

My third (and final) problem is Magnezone. I dislike Magnet Rise, most EQ users can hit Mag hard otherwise (e.g. MixMence). I dislike that set entirely. I have an odd set that surprisingly works.
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Magnezone @ Expert Belt
Timid l 252 SpA / 220 Spe / 36 Def

~ Substitute
~ Flash Cannon
~ Thunderbolt
~ HP Fire
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Looking at the top 10 again, we see that only Blissey, Swampert, and Latias and wall him, and only Mence and Ape aren't OHKO and are faster. Flash Cannon is a very useful filler, scoring a 2HKO on Tar and an OHKO on Mamoswine. This bad boy deals ~65% to Salamence, and the same to Kingdra. I suggest you at least test this set.

I hope I helped!

Blissey is a very common switch-in to Gengar. If Gengar is using Substitute, it should probably use Focus Punch too instead of Focus Blast, because iirc Focus Punch brings most Blissey into KO range after SR damage. I agree with Bad Ass that Salamence should be replaced with Gyarados, because of the "Scizor factor" hindering a late-game Salamence sweep. Note that many people save Scizor for late-game if it's their only priority user.

I'd personally recommend otherwise with changing Vaporeon to Swampert. Shocking, I know. In this situation, changing to Swampert opens up a previously unavailable chance for Infernape to Grass Knot for the KO. In other words, don't change it unless you want to be Mixape weak.

I also take issue with using Salamence as the central core of your team. With LO, it's not likely to be lasting very long, particularly if you get locked into an Outrage. While many Pokémon (such as Zapdos, Latias, etc.) can be effective SubRoost sweepers with Life Orb, Salamence is NOT one of them. I would strongly recommend changing to a different Pokemon, such as the suggested Gyarados.

Finally, I'd take the suggested Magnezone (your previous Magnezone couldn't do jack against certain, specific Steels) and change it up as suggested, but with one minor difference-drop Flash Cannon for Thunder Wave. When Garchomp was a huge threat, you might have wanted Flash Cannon. Now, it seems a bit redundant. Thunder Wave allows you to slow down and/or cripple common switch-ins such as Latias, Tyranitar, and Heatran, even possibly turning the tables and allowing you to KO them. Other than that, your current team supports each other well. Not bad.

very good team but i recommend aqua tail over earthquake on cb tyranitar to 2ohko hippo who will try to stall jirachi,salamence,and tyranitar.

Bad Ass said:

This is very close to my own team, Flash, so I think I can fix her up.

My first query is Vaporeon. Stuff hits too hard, too fast, for Vappy to be coming in and pulling off a successful wish. Referring to the top 10, a large chunk of it can beat Vap 1 v. 1. Which is why I suggest...
-------------------------------------------
Swampert @ Leftovers
Relaxed l 240 Hp / 216 Def / 56 Def

~ Ice Beam
~ Earthquake
~ Roar
~ Protect
-------------------------------------------
Protect can give some healing, always useful, and scouting, even more useful. Roar is for Phazing, and again, scouting. IB + EQ gets the best coverage IMO.

Click to expand...

I'm afraid I have to object to this suggestion, although I appreciate the help entirely. Your suggestion to replace Vaporeon for Swampert brings up one important question: In what way can Swampert contribute to the team that Vaporeon couldn't? I specifically used Vaporeon because it beats most bulky waters one-on-one with Toxic and can provide Wish Support to the rest of my team. The only advantage to running Swampert that I see is being able to counter physical Salamence, but then I'm weak against MixApe. Overall, I feel Vaporeon contributes more to the team as a whole because your suggested Swampert works more as a standalone pokemon.

Bad Ass said:

My second issue is Salamence. OH LOOK WHO IS #1! Yep, with Scizor on 1/3 of all teams, Salamence is generally getting one attack off before being revenged at the hands(claws?) of Scizor. Therefore, a different sweeper is required. I will suggest an offensive sweeper, none other than
-------------------------------------------
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 Hp


~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge / Ice Fang
-------------------------------------------
Simple set, simple spread. Ice Fang is solely for OHKOing Mence without SR up, and maybe a little Latias killing. Stone Edge hits Zapdos, though, for an OHKO after SR and a DD.

Click to expand...

I'm glad that you expressed concern over Scizor being able to take down the main sweeper in my team, but couldn't Magnezone take down Scizor on it's own? As I have stated, one of Gengar's purposes on this team is to lure out Scizor, who will either Bullet Punch - giving me a free switch to Magnezone - or Pursuit, being a risk at being 2HKO'd by Focus Blast after a few switches into Stealth Rock.

Also, I'd like to ask: What advantages would I have to using Gyarados over Salamence? Salamence has a stronger attack in Outrage, while Gyarados requires more than one turn of setup to be a threat to the opposing team (as I'd run Jolly over Adamant to outspeed Jolteon anyways).

Bad Ass said:

My third (and final) problem is Magnezone. I dislike Magnet Rise, most EQ users can hit Mag hard otherwise (e.g. MixMence). I dislike that set entirely. I have an odd set that surprisingly works.
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Magnezone @ Expert Belt
Timid l 252 SpA / 220 Spe / 36 Def

~ Substitute
~ Flash Cannon
~ Thunderbolt
~ HP Fire
--------------------------------------------
Looking at the top 10 again, we see that only Blissey, Swampert, and Latias and wall him, and only Mence and Ape aren't OHKO and are faster. Flash Cannon is a very useful filler, scoring a 2HKO on Tar and an OHKO on Mamoswine. This bad boy deals ~65% to Salamence, and the same to Kingdra. I suggest you at least test this set.

Click to expand...

I was using this set myself before I switched over to Magnet Rise testing, but using Leftovers instead of Expert Belt and Hidden Power Grass over Fire, since Scizor does jackshit to me anyways. However, I mainly wanted to run Magnet Rise to have a safe switch-in to Metagross (after Gengar lures out Meteor Mash), which gives me many a problem with the big threat of Explosion. Is there anything I could do to help against Metagross?

Actually, I remember a specific Rotom-a sweeping set being mentioned before, which worked to the premise of using Substitute and then using Charge Beam to raise your Special Attack and then sweeping with a combination of Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fighting. Does anyone think this might work in place of Gengar? The only problem is that Rotom-a does not lure out Scizor, which really ruins the overall playability of Magnezone on the team.

MapleSandwich said:

I also take issue with using Salamence as the central core of your team. With LO, it's not likely to be lasting very long, particularly if you get locked into an Outrage. While many Pokémon (such as Zapdos, Latias, etc.) can be effective SubRoost sweepers with Life Orb, Salamence is NOT one of them. I would strongly recommend changing to a different Pokemon, such as the suggested Gyarados.

Click to expand...

Is being stuck on Outrage really a problem after Magnezone and Gengar help eliminate Steels that may try to switch in? All other non-steel types are usually OHKO'd by Outrage, barring Hippowdon, so I'd just try to bring up that point on my defense. Also, I do not run Substitute anywhere on Salamence's current set, and Zapdos and Latias play much more differently than Salamence to begin with.


*To the above posters, please note that I am not trying to ignore your suggestions. I'm only arguing for the sake of trying to decide on the best choices for my team. I'll agree with suggestions that I feel I can agree with with the given explanation.

EagleX said:

very good team but i recommend aqua tail over earthquake on cb tyranitar to 2ohko hippo who will try to stall jirachi,salamence,and tyranitar.

Click to expand...

My Tyranitar is not running Choice Band, and it is not meant to stay in on Hippowdon either. >_>

Well, the team is really SkarmBliss weak...
Magnezone can trap the Leftover Skarmoryes, but almost every team that rely on Skarmory to win are going to use Shed Shell (even if magnezone isn't present in almost every battle, i would rather be safe than sorry).
Pursuit isn't really going to kill Blissey anytime soon (52% max damage if min HP/max def calm blissey switchs out) and your team gives a lot of free switches to Blissey (Vaporeon, Gengar, Magnezone), so she can easily heal herself.

Giving Gengar Focus Punch could easily help you (use the hp fire/shadow ball/focus punch/substitute set).Salamence with Fire Blast>>>Roost/Stone Edge could further aid you with your Skarmbliss weakness (just don't use Stone Edge in the last slot, stick with Fire Blast or Roost).

Also, why Toxic >>> HP Electric? Beating Bulky Waters is nice, but countering Gyarados is better (what would you do against Taunt Gyara?). Every single member of your team can give Gyarados some problems (except Vaporeon, but the enemy won't be switching gyarados anytime soon until he finds out your M7), but you just can't let Ttar/Salamance against him, because they are both very important members and you can't afford to lose them due to a misprediction.
So, yea, why don't you test HP Electric>>>Toxic?

Hope this helps :)

EDIT: Forgot to mention it, but nice team!

Rurushu said:

Well, the team is really SkarmBliss weak...
Magnezone can trap the Leftover Skarmoryes, but almost every team that rely on Skarmory to win are going to use Shed Shell (even if magnezone isn't present in almost every battle, i would rather be safe than sorry).
Pursuit isn't really going to kill Blissey anytime soon (52% max damage if min HP/max def calm blissey switchs out) and your team gives a lot of free switches to Blissey (Vaporeon, Gengar, Magnezone), so she can easily heal herself.

Giving Gengar Focus Punch could easily help you (use the hp fire/shadow ball/focus punch/substitute set).Salamence with Fire Blast>>>Roost/Stone Edge could further aid you with your Skarmbliss weakness (just don't use Stone Edge in the last slot, stick with Fire Blast or Roost).

Click to expand...

Amazingly, I have not had any problems against SkarmBliss with this team as of late, having dealt with a few stall teams already on the Standard Ladder. For starters, I'd like to begin that the only Pokémon whom Skarmory can switch into is Jirachi, and if Jirachi lures it out, Gengar or Magnezone can get a free switch in as I please.

As for Blissey, she isn't hard to deal with as it seems, with Sandstorm negating her Leftovers recovery. My main strategy is to lure the opponent into a false sense of security by using Crunch as they Protect (expecting me to carry Choice Band), and then I use Pursuit to eliminate over half of their health at times. There, I can proceed to KO with Focus Blast from Gengar as two Focus Blasts deal well over 50% damage.

Rurushu said:

Also, why Toxic >>> HP Electric? Beating Bulky Waters is nice, but countering Gyarados is better (what would you do against Taunt Gyara?). Every single member of your team can give Gyarados some problems (except Vaporeon, but the enemy won't be switching gyarados anytime soon until he finds out your M7), but you just can't let Ttar/Salamance against him, because they are both very important members and you can't afford to lose them due to a misprediction.
So, yea, why don't you test HP Electric>>>Toxic?

Click to expand...

Trust me, I've been considering Hidden Power Electric over Toxic on Vaporeon, but I felt Toxic could support my team much better in place of a sole attacking move. For example, my Jirachi can take on most BulkyGyara by crippling with Body Slam, since Waterfall won't be doing much and Jirachi resists Stone Edge. As for offensive Gyara, I can usually get around it with smart predictions, and with Toxic, Life Orb, and Sandstorm damage going against it, it will barely be alive enough to warrant any immediate threat.

However, I might consider Hidden Power if Gyarados becomes too much of a problem.

As promised, here is my rate of the team:

Something like an hour before I found this thread, I decided that I wanted to make a team based around dragon dance mence. I made the team, then I saw this thread. To my surprise, our teams ended up very similar.

Your team: Jirachi/Vaporeon/Tyranitar/Gengar/Magnezone/Salamence
My team: Metagross/Swampert/Machamp/Gengar/Magnezone/Salamence

So we ended up with 3 pokemon in common, and a psychic/steel, bulky water, and physical hard hitter. Remarkable.

I'll just tell you what I did differently and why and you can take it as suggestions.

Metagross over Jirachi. Yeah you said you thought about gross but prefer Jirachi. I like metagross better because explosion lets you take out things that can annoy mence but not stop it (waterfall/stone edge gyarados comes to mind). Bullet punch also gives you a priority which you desire.

Swampert and Machamp over Vaporeon and Tyranitar. Yeah, I read what you said earlier about vaporeon being better than pert on the team, thus these 2 changes need to be made in tandem. Having champ instead of ttar does a few things:
1. If you go pert, you are no longer as mixape weak (plus you still have gengar to revenge it or switch in on grass knots).
2. Swampert is now your main switchin to electric attacks (jolteon, etc) which can really hurt this team.
3. No sandstorm is always a plus when your main sweeper has a Life Orb.
4. You have no status absorber, restalk machamp will give you that.
5. Solid ttar/physical mence counter, which both destroy your team (I'd honestly be more worried about ddtar than mence if I were you).

I'll just list all my differences in the last 3 pokemon here:
1. Gengar: I also picked sub gar (picks things off after mence is done, lures scizor well), but I enjoy hypnosis over tbolt as it makes it easier to get sub up, but if tbolt is working for you and you don't like the accuracy of hypnosis, then fine.
2. Magnezone: Wow, I picked the exact same moveset and even the same nickname as you O_O. I was looking to invest more speed than the standard analysis and decided to just use your spread after I saw it, it works well.
3. Mence: I absolutely love lum berry on ddmence. SS wouldn't work you down as quickly if you keep ttar and you heal your ouwn confusion at worse. I just hate getting fucked by a paralysis. I prefer a plus speed nature as a lot of checks (scarf jirachi) aim for something like 308 speed.

I think I covered everything, hoped that helped.

Yeah for starters I only found one major problem and that is the lack of coverage on fighting moves, that leads to one major problem taking down normal types. Mostly, blissey and gengars focus blast CAN'T ohko blissey it will 2HitKo bliss but with the 70% accuracy I wouldn't count on it and most ppl don't.

So this is what you need to take down blissey and keep gengar on the team since he has a spot ment for the team in my view.

Gengar @ Expert Belt
100 Atk / 156 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Levitate
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt

Alright, heres the description. Substitute to activate the focu punching time, and focus punch is only good with sub up so you don't get hit with a move then sub goes "Plop". Shadow ball to kill ghost and to 2hitko metagross and others. I replaced Hp (fire) with t-bolt since you have enough fire coverage already and don't need more. Thunderbolt for stab and to kill others that don't resist but hp (fire) can still be used for steels that plan on BP'ing this guy.

Hey, love the team. If you don't mind, I have some suggestions though...

Maybe you may want to use your gengar as more of a revenge killer. Now, I know you hate choice items but this may be your best bet against a Salamence if Magnezone is down.

Gengar w/ Choice Scarf
Nature: Modest/ Timid
Evs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/ 6 HP
Moveset:
Shadow ball
Focus Blast
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power [Ice]

This is one of the best revenge killers out there. Shadow Ball is for STAB obviously and Focus Blast is for pokemon who resist Shadow Ball. Thunderbolt is for Gyarados and HP Ice if for Salamence. Now, what you do for Thunderbolt is you switch him out against a Gyarados who is going to use Dragon Dance and then OHKO since you will still be faster. Now, just using modest will do for Gyarados but... you can use Timid if you wanna outrun a DD outrage Mence if hes in or not in an Outrage and then OHKO it with HP Ice as long as it doesnt have a yache Berry.

For Vaporeon, you don't have to do this, but, I usually switch the Speed evs for Special Attack evs so it can do more power. Now, this may not seem like the best idea but I have done some good damage to tons of pokemon with this (2HKO's skarmory and OHKO's Hippowdon who has 0 SpD evs) it can also 2HKO many other pokemon that I dont feel like listing lol.

Well, hope I helped

First off, I want to say I really love the team. I love using Jirachi, Tyranitar, and Salamence.

Anyways, onto the team:

The biggest letdown for your team is lack of a good revenge killer. If Gyarados/Salamence/Tyranitar get a DD in, it's pretty much game over. So first off, Salamence needs to be handled with a Steel that can come in on Outrage and finish it off. But you have no ice moves at all, and your steels aren't too powerful to quickly dispose of Salamence before dying. Magnezone Thunderbolts MIGHT help you, but I'm not too sure overall. It's very risky. Gyarados is just a plain old 6-0. EQ for your steels, Waterfall for others, and Ice Fang/Stone Edge for Mence. DDTar works the same way, as it can outspeed everything after a DD as well. Buffed up special defense allows him to take a Vappy Surf.

SO, to remedy the DD weaknesses, you could simply Scarf your Jirachi. Iron Head/Thunderpunch/fire punch/ filler. With this switch, you get a revenger to the DDers. You lose rocks, but that's when Vappy -> Swampert comes in. Swampert can ease the Mence situation somewhat and helps with other things, too like Rocks. Lastly, a ScarfJirachi helps by outspeeding Dugtrio, who would otherwise revenge 1/2 your team easily.

Decent team but for me it lacks speed to be an offensive team (so it seems). It's very odd that you stick Vaporeon in there for an offensive team. You lack speed and something like SD Lucario or standard DD Gyarados or AgilityEmpoleon could be troublesome, Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Earthquake / Ice Fang. Also, as a whole it looks like it doesn't hit "hard enough" to destroy stall teams today. You need some more wall breaking in order to shed through Stall teams which could be troublesome to this team. Also keeping SD Lucario and DD Gyarados in check is a must. I know Vaporeon is there to keep Gyarados in check but it does nothing less outside that but look to keep other stat boosters, especially AgilityEmpoleon who could easily pull off one agility or one sub if it decides to switch in on Vaporeon. Toxic can't touch it and surf really can't do much with pretty good base stats. I will suggest some changes to make it more "hard hitting"

Suicune @ Leftovers
Bold
EV: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 6 SpA

Calm Mind
Surf
Roar
HP [Electric] / Toxic

Suicune adds a brand new bulky water in place of Vaporeon and is still an offensive threat today. I really think this guy would blend in - it lacks speed but it has the ability to scout with roar while utilizing SR damage and sandstorm damage. Calm Mind is already dangerous after +1 so its a must. Surf + Hp [Electric] bring good attacks to the table and is able to destroy Gyarados and other threats. Toxic is there to damage opposing walls (Blissey) but leaves Empoleon open to set up (if it is last) If this isn't a good enough offensive water type you could go with 252 Speed / 252 SpA Timid with Calm Mind / Surf / Ice Beam / Hp [Electric] for more speed and quick damage.

On Gengar it is a good call to counter Lucario. The 70% accuracy is shakey to damage it. Substitute is not needed but instead try using Explosion in place of it and chaning your nature to Naive and EV spread too 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Speed. You loose some SpA but you gain the ability to take huge chunks to your most common switch in. If you are not satisfied with Gengar, i'll suggest another ghost type that counters some of the major threats today.

Rotom-O @ Choice Scarf
Modest
EV: 30 HP / 8 Def / 220 SpA / 252 Speed

Overheat / Will-O-Wisp
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Trick

This guy comes in and counters some of your major threats, e.g SD Lucario, DD Gyarados, SD Scizor, etc. it easily comes in on Lucario which would probably switch in on Tyranitar the most. Overheat will do the trick on unwanted steel types. Will-O-Wisp is another option but status is not needed right now - you could use it if you really want to weaken and cripple it rather than damage it. Thunderbolt damages Adamant DD Gyarados it also outspeeds it! Jolly could be torublesome but it could survive a waterfall. Shadow Ball allows you to hit opposing ghost types and damage for STAB. Trick is your move to screw Blissey over which is a +1 and is the common switch in to this thing vs. Stall teams. Not to mention the fact this guy brings the same immunites as Gengar but also adds more bulk and resistance. You loose the SpA base stat but you add on more safety to the team and handle your deadliest threats.

My final nitpick would be the life orb and stone edge on Salamence. Stone Edge is actually never used paired with Outrage. Outrage is just the move spammed after DD and it damages just as hard a s a super effective Stone Edge, no to mention the fact is has a shakey accuracy. The ability to wall break is much better - replace Fire Blast for Stone Edge to damage Skarmory which walls you. use the standard set 24 SpA / 252 Atk / 232 Speed. Life orb + sandstorm is decent but you could go with leftovers or expert belt for more survability. Life orb is something you might consider to finish off Gyarados + SR down, Swampert +1, etc.

Good luck with this team.

For mence, use +spe nature, jolly for yours because it has no SpA attacks. On my DDmence + Spe nature i use 220 Spe EVs, which reaches 320 speed, which allows you to outrun modest scarfed gengars after a DDm as well as outspeeding normal evset scarfrachi and luke. This would mean you can chuck some evs into Def or HP, i would think Def to weaken scizors BP and SD lukes extemespeed.

scofield said:

As promised, here is my rate of the team:

Something like an hour before I found this thread, I decided that I wanted to make a team based around dragon dance mence. I made the team, then I saw this thread. To my surprise, our teams ended up very similar.

Your team: Jirachi/Vaporeon/Tyranitar/Gengar/Magnezone/Salamence
My team: Metagross/Swampert/Machamp/Gengar/Magnezone/Salamence

So we ended up with 3 pokemon in common, and a psychic/steel, bulky water, and physical hard hitter. Remarkable.

I'll just tell you what I did differently and why and you can take it as suggestions.

Metagross over Jirachi. Yeah you said you thought about gross but prefer Jirachi. I like metagross better because explosion lets you take out things that can annoy mence but not stop it (waterfall/stone edge gyarados comes to mind). Bullet punch also gives you a priority which you desire.

Swampert and Machamp over Vaporeon and Tyranitar. Yeah, I read what you said earlier about vaporeon being better than pert on the team, thus these 2 changes need to be made in tandem. Having champ instead of ttar does a few things:
1. If you go pert, you are no longer as mixape weak (plus you still have gengar to revenge it or switch in on grass knots).
2. Swampert is now your main switchin to electric attacks (jolteon, etc) which can really hurt this team.
3. No sandstorm is always a plus when your main sweeper has a Life Orb.
4. You have no status absorber, restalk machamp will give you that.
5. Solid ttar/physical mence counter, which both destroy your team (I'd honestly be more worried about ddtar than mence if I were you).

I'll just list all my differences in the last 3 pokemon here:
1. Gengar: I also picked sub gar (picks things off after mence is done, lures scizor well), but I enjoy hypnosis over tbolt as it makes it easier to get sub up, but if tbolt is working for you and you don't like the accuracy of hypnosis, then fine.
2. Magnezone: Wow, I picked the exact same moveset and even the same nickname as you O_O. I was looking to invest more speed than the standard analysis and decided to just use your spread after I saw it, it works well.
3. Mence: I absolutely love lum berry on ddmence. SS wouldn't work you down as quickly if you keep ttar and you heal your ouwn confusion at worse. I just hate getting fucked by a paralysis. I prefer a plus speed nature as a lot of checks (scarf jirachi) aim for something like 308 speed.

I think I covered everything, hoped that helped.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the rate, scofield! It's been fun battling on the Suspect Ladder lately eh? Anyways moving on...

As I have stated previously, I have been considering Metagross over Jirachi, but I have been pondering over making a change because I am relatively unfamiliar about how Metagross plays, since many people can properly counter as I try to Explode or something. With Jirachi, I catch many people off guard with Body Slam and is relatively bulky enough to help counter Kingdra and Salamence when at full health. I'd appreciate if you told me more about how Metagross might work on this team, apart from being able to blow up because I do not like having to resort to that when my team is mainly based on resistances and overall bulk.

Running Swampert and Machamp over my current Vaporeon and Tyranitar seems like a great idea, but I have one question: Can Machamp beat RestSTalk Rotom-a by running Payback? I mainly run Tyranitar because it helps break stall and forms perfect offensive/defensive synergy with Gengar and Magnezone (the true core of my team outside Salamence). As for Swampert, I could see it working, but it seems too situationional to be honest. I could consider running Roar on Swampert to deal with stat-up Pokémon easier, so I will take that into consideration. To be honest, I haven't had too many oppurtunities to actually "WishPass" with Vaporeon. =P

On a side note, not being able to resist Electric attacks has not been a problem for my team. With Tyranitar being able to sponge the more common Thunderbolt and Discharge, I don't see it being a viable argument, although I appreciate the effort. However, Electivire is another problem, since it can hit my team rather hard if I cannot get it into KO range from Gengar's Shadow Ball, and Electivire with Motor Drive is scary for my team.

RainDance said:

Yeah for starters I only found one major problem and that is the lack of coverage on fighting moves, that leads to one major problem taking down normal types. Mostly, blissey and gengars focus blast CAN'T ohko blissey it will 2HitKo bliss but with the 70% accuracy I wouldn't count on it and most ppl don't.

So this is what you need to take down blissey and keep gengar on the team since he has a spot ment for the team in my view.

Gengar @ Expert Belt
100 Atk / 156 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Levitate
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt

Alright, heres the description. Substitute to activate the focu punching time, and focus punch is only good with sub up so you don't get hit with a move then sub goes "Plop". Shadow ball to kill ghost and to 2hitko metagross and others. I replaced Hp (fire) with t-bolt since you have enough fire coverage already and don't need more. Thunderbolt for stab and to kill others that don't resist but hp (fire) can still be used for steels that plan on BP'ing this guy.

Click to expand...

I have considered running this set myself, but I have stayed away from it because Focus Punch can really only be used when Substitute is up. If I use this set, I cannot beat Gengar with Lucario and Blissey can outstall me if it has attacking moves other than Seismic Toss.

Rezon said:

Hey, love the team. If you don't mind, I have some suggestions though...

Maybe you may want to use your gengar as more of a revenge killer. Now, I know you hate choice items but this may be your best bet against a Salamence if Magnezone is down.

Gengar w/ Choice Scarf
Nature: Modest/ Timid
Evs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/ 6 HP
Moveset:
Shadow ball
Focus Blast
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power [Ice]

This is one of the best revenge killers out there. Shadow Ball is for STAB obviously and Focus Blast is for pokemon who resist Shadow Ball. Thunderbolt is for Gyarados and HP Ice if for Salamence. Now, what you do for Thunderbolt is you switch him out against a Gyarados who is going to use Dragon Dance and then OHKO since you will still be faster. Now, just using modest will do for Gyarados but... you can use Timid if you wanna outrun a DD outrage Mence if hes in or not in an Outrage and then OHKO it with HP Ice as long as it doesnt have a yache Berry.

For Vaporeon, you don't have to do this, but, I usually switch the Speed evs for Special Attack evs so it can do more power. Now, this may not seem like the best idea but I have done some good damage to tons of pokemon with this (2HKO's skarmory and OHKO's Hippowdon who has 0 SpD evs) it can also 2HKO many other pokemon that I dont feel like listing lol.

Well, hope I helped

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This set seems relatively solid as well, as I have seen it being used on another team that was not too different from this one. Again, I share the common concern of Pokémon being able to switch in and set up on me due to being stuck on an attack, something my team cannot afford to let happen.

As for Vaporeon, shifting my Speed EVs to Special Attack seems like an excellent idea. I will give that a try since I depend on Vaporeon to eliminate Hippowdon anyways.

XxBlueCleric.xX said:

First off, I want to say I really love the team. I love using Jirachi, Tyranitar, and Salamence.

Anyways, onto the team:

The biggest letdown for your team is lack of a good revenge killer. If Gyarados/Salamence/Tyranitar get a DD in, it's pretty much game over. So first off, Salamence needs to be handled with a Steel that can come in on Outrage and finish it off. But you have no ice moves at all, and your steels aren't too powerful to quickly dispose of Salamence before dying. Magnezone Thunderbolts MIGHT help you, but I'm not too sure overall. It's very risky. Gyarados is just a plain old 6-0. EQ for your steels, Waterfall for others, and Ice Fang/Stone Edge for Mence. DDTar works the same way, as it can outspeed everything after a DD as well. Buffed up special defense allows him to take a Vappy Surf.

SO, to remedy the DD weaknesses, you could simply Scarf your Jirachi. Iron Head/Thunderpunch/fire punch/ filler. With this switch, you get a revenger to the DDers. You lose rocks, but that's when Vappy -> Swampert comes in. Swampert can ease the Mence situation somewhat and helps with other things, too like Rocks. Lastly, a ScarfJirachi helps by outspeeding Dugtrio, who would otherwise revenge 1/2 your team easily.

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ScarfJirachi, once again, makes for an interesting option, but with a simple team like this that isn't defensive enough to properly counter set-up Pokémon, would it really be viable to consider running this set? I mean, what exactly would I switch in if Gyarados switches into Iron Head? Vaporeon can switch in, but Jirachi won't be switching back in because of Earthquake. Tyranitar, Gengar, and Magnezone don't stand a chance, and I don't like having Salamence take Stealth Rock damage mid-game as it really hurts my ability to pull off a late-game sweep.

However, since I am weak to Gyarados as it is, running ScarfAchi might be a suitable option that I may test in the future, but for now, I'll be sticking to my current set.

Grimmjow said:

Decent team but for me it lacks speed to be an offensive team (so it seems). It's very odd that you stick Vaporeon in there for an offensive team. You lack speed and something like SD Lucario or standard DD Gyarados or AgilityEmpoleon could be troublesome, Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Earthquake / Ice Fang. Also, as a whole it looks like it doesn't hit "hard enough" to destroy stall teams today. You need some more wall breaking in order to shed through Stall teams which could be troublesome to this team. Also keeping SD Lucario and DD Gyarados in check is a must. I know Vaporeon is there to keep Gyarados in check but it does nothing less outside that but look to keep other stat boosters, especially AgilityEmpoleon who could easily pull off one agility or one sub if it decides to switch in on Vaporeon. Toxic can't touch it and surf really can't do much with pretty good base stats. I will suggest some changes to make it more "hard hitting"

Suicune @ Leftovers
Bold
EV: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 6 SpA

Calm Mind
Surf
Roar
HP [Electric] / Toxic

Suicune adds a brand new bulky water in place of Vaporeon and is still an offensive threat today. I really think this guy would blend in - it lacks speed but it has the ability to scout with roar while utilizing SR damage and sandstorm damage. Calm Mind is already dangerous after +1 so its a must. Surf + Hp [Electric] bring good attacks to the table and is able to destroy Gyarados and other threats. Toxic is there to damage opposing walls (Blissey) but leaves Empoleon open to set up (if it is last) If this isn't a good enough offensive water type you could go with 252 Speed / 252 SpA Timid with Calm Mind / Surf / Ice Beam / Hp [Electric] for more speed and quick damage.

On Gengar it is a good call to counter Lucario. The 70% accuracy is shakey to damage it. Substitute is not needed but instead try using Explosion in place of it and chaning your nature to Naive and EV spread too 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Speed. You loose some SpA but you gain the ability to take huge chunks to your most common switch in. If you are not satisfied with Gengar, i'll suggest another ghost type that counters some of the major threats today.

Rotom-O @ Choice Scarf
Modest
EV: 30 HP / 8 Def / 220 SpA / 252 Speed

Overheat / Will-O-Wisp
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Trick

This guy comes in and counters some of your major threats, e.g SD Lucario, DD Gyarados, SD Scizor, etc. it easily comes in on Lucario which would probably switch in on Tyranitar the most. Overheat will do the trick on unwanted steel types. Will-O-Wisp is another option but status is not needed right now - you could use it if you really want to weaken and cripple it rather than damage it. Thunderbolt damages Adamant DD Gyarados it also outspeeds it! Jolly could be torublesome but it could survive a waterfall. Shadow Ball allows you to hit opposing ghost types and damage for STAB. Trick is your move to screw Blissey over which is a +1 and is the common switch in to this thing vs. Stall teams. Not to mention the fact this guy brings the same immunites as Gengar but also adds more bulk and resistance. You loose the SpA base stat but you add on more safety to the team and handle your deadliest threats.

My final nitpick would be the life orb and stone edge on Salamence. Stone Edge is actually never used paired with Outrage. Outrage is just the move spammed after DD and it damages just as hard a s a super effective Stone Edge, no to mention the fact is has a shakey accuracy. The ability to wall break is much better - replace Fire Blast for Stone Edge to damage Skarmory which walls you. use the standard set 24 SpA / 252 Atk / 232 Speed. Life orb + sandstorm is decent but you could go with leftovers or expert belt for more survability. Life orb is something you might consider to finish off Gyarados + SR down, Swampert +1, etc.

Good luck with this team.

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I have to tell you, I absolutely love your suggestion with Suicune! To be honest, I have not been completely satisfied with relying on Vaporeon to take many hits because its defenses remain generally low to take hits, but Suicune may just have enough defenses to properly fit my "bulky offense" team, which I failed to consider previously. However, I'm worried about Suicune's spot on the team, since it may open me up to a more dangerous problem with MixApe; if I'm not mistaken, Suicune only takes around 60% from Grass Knot correct? Also, with Suicune being as bulky as it is, would Roar remains a viable option over Rest, meaning I trade survivability for the ability to eliminate counters better? I'm worried about things like Salamence switching in and Outraging me for 40%+ while all I can do is Roar.

Your suggestion to run Rotom-h over Gengar seems pretty good, but I'd like to go further in depth with this suggestion. While it seems like a good general idea, I think running Rotom-h as a Scarfer may conflict with Magnezone's role on the team as Magnezone was meant to take on Steel-types, which Rotom-h does perfectly. If I were to take on this suggestion, what would you recommend I do with Magnezone's slot?

vGX said:

For mence, use +spe nature, jolly for yours because it has no SpA attacks. On my DDmence + Spe nature i use 220 Spe EVs, which reaches 320 speed, which allows you to outrun modest scarfed gengars after a DDm as well as outspeeding normal evset scarfrachi and luke. This would mean you can chuck some evs into Def or HP, i would think Def to weaken scizors BP and SD lukes extemespeed.

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I could try running Jolly, but doesn't Tyranitar and Jirachi handle ScarfGar and Scarfachi respectively? I just thought I should point this out...


Anyways, thank you all for the suggestions you have taken time to write in response to my team. I'll make sure to keep responding accordingly, so I'd like to ask for responses to my own posts as well. Thanks!

As I have stated previously, I have been considering Metagross over Jirachi, but I have been pondering over making a change because I am relatively unfamiliar about how Metagross plays, since many people can properly counter as I try to Explode or something. With Jirachi, I catch many people off guard with Body Slam and is relatively bulky enough to help counter Kingdra and Salamence when at full health. I'd appreciate if you told me more about how Metagross might work on this team, apart from being able to blow up because I do not like having to resort to that when my team is mainly based on resistances and overall bulk.

Ah yes, metagross, a very easy pokemon to use. What I like the most about Metagross is that it is a suicide lead that doesn't play as a suicide lead. Never explode until you're sure it will kill something. The threat of an explosion is enough to scare out a swampert. But when the time comes, you will be able to explode. In the mean time spam meteor mash, it is an insanely powerful attack that rips shit up. Also, bp is helpful for picking off things that are weak but had a little bit of a boost. It can still counter a lot of the things at full health that Jirachi could. Only con is that you do lose out on paralysis support. With my spread of metagross over jirachi you have 104 less speed, 84 more attack, 4 less hp, 63 more def, and 20 less spc def. Also, it seems as if you are missing 6 ev's from your Jirachi spread, i don't know if that was a typo or if you're missing it on shoddy too. Honestly, it's up to you, I just prefer Metagross myself.

Meteor Miss (Metagross) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/236 Atk/14 Def/8 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch

Running Swampert and Machamp over my current Vaporeon and Tyranitar seems like a great idea, but I have one question: Can Machamp beat RestSTalk Rotom-a by running Payback? I mainly run Tyranitar because it helps break stall and forms perfect offensive/defensive synergy with Gengar and Magnezone (the true core of my team outside Salamence). As for Swampert, I could see it working, but it seems too situationional to be honest. I could consider running Roar on Swampert to deal with stat-up Pokémon easier, so I will take that into consideration. To be honest, I haven't had too many oppurtunities to actually "WishPass" with Vaporeon. =P

If you're that worried about rotom, you might want to use guts with payback and maybe even bulk up. I think (don't take my word for it) that guts payback should be close to a 2hko after rocks. Honestly, I just use swampert's hydro pump to take care of unsuspecting rotom most of the time. If you just want to be able to do something to rotom, then restalk dynamic punch payback works well too.

Pert Plus (Swampert) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 242 HP/52 Atk/216 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Hydro Pump

On a side note, not being able to resist Electric attacks has not been a problem for my team. With Tyranitar being able to sponge the more common Thunderbolt and Discharge, I don't see it being a viable argument, although I appreciate the effort. However, Electivire is another problem, since it can hit my team rather hard if I cannot get it into KO range from Gengar's Shadow Ball, and Electivire with Motor Drive is scary for my team.

I do agree with that, I meant more in the case if ttar is down to say 45% and your against specs jolteon, you'd be destroyed.

Just ask if you have any more questions.

The team looks relatively solid, but you, as you mentioned, have no true switch-in to Salamence. You might want to take out Vaporeon in place of

Starmie @ Choice Scarf
Timid
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Trick

This Starmie does everything Vaporeon does (except counter Bulky Waters and wish passing), but brings up a few advantages. Firstly, it has the ability to revenge kill. It can come in on most +1 sweepers and KO them. This includes switching into a Salamence as it Dragon Dances. You also have the ability to sweep once the opponent' team is weakened which Vaporeon doesn't have. Infernape has alot more problems with Starmie as well. Very few people expect a Scarf allowing you to usually get at least one surprise KO. Trick can be used to screw up Blissey and friends who can wall the average Starmie very easily.

The loss of a Bulky Water counter and a Wish Passer can be bad for your team, but I think that it is worth it. You have a few Pokemon who can take out Bulky Waters already on your team and Starmie's Thunderbolt can help you out with that. There really is no way to replace a wish passer so that will be a big loss to your team, but I think that Starmie's advantages outweigh the losses.

Flashstorm1 said:

I have to tell you, I absolutely love your suggestion with Suicune! To be honest, I have not been completely satisfied with relying on Vaporeon to take many hits because its defenses remain generally low to take hits, but Suicune may just have enough defenses to properly fit my "bulky offense" team, which I failed to consider previously. However, I'm worried about Suicune's spot on the team, since it may open me up to a more dangerous problem with MixApe; if I'm not mistaken, Suicune only takes around 60% from Grass Knot correct? Also, with Suicune being as bulky as it is, would Roar remains a viable option over Rest, meaning I trade survivability for the ability to eliminate counters better? I'm worried about things like Salamence switching in and Outraging me for 40%+ while all I can do is Roar.

Your suggestion to run Rotom-h over Gengar seems pretty good, but I'd like to go further in depth with this suggestion. While it seems like a good general idea, I think running Rotom-h as a Scarfer may conflict with Magnezone's role on the team as Magnezone was meant to take on Steel-types, which Rotom-h does perfectly. If I were to take on this suggestion, what would you recommend I do with Magnezone's slot?

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Now that I think of it - I never read the description of our introduction and wasn't aware that it was bulky offense. I usually proceed to the description. But anyways I'm not really sure but something that would replace Magnezone and keep the "bulky theme" is adding a SubAgility Empoleon.

Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Modest
12 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 232 Spe

-Agility
-Substitute
-Surf / Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam

I just think this guy would fit in in place of Magnezone without ruining the typing change but add more resistances. 88 def / 101 spD is really bulky enough and should have no problem dropping. This guy is a scary threat late-game if Blissey is removed (preferred). You have enough guys that could destroy Blissey. Although this guy could also beat standard Blissey 1v1. 529 torrent surfs can handle it but if you really think Blissey is a bothersome try Hydro Pump which will 2HKO most of the time.

As for Suicune there are many possibilities but now after finding out this is a bulky offense. You might consider a CroCune Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind / Surf. If you really desire this survability from your pokemon crocune is really effective. If you think one attack is lacking. You might want to try a shuffle set also Rest / Sleep Talk / Roar / Surf, but you'll loose the ability to boost your attacks. You take advantage of SR and SS damage though and it will help bulky pokemon finish off weakened pokemon.

I see Latias weakness w/ Calm Mind Surf Draco Meteor HP Fire. Draco Meteor after 1 Calm mind will hurt T-Tar pretty bad.
Gengar won't ko even with that much SpAtk ;o Vaporeon might wall it for sometime but then calm mind is gonna come up and ohko you with Draco Meteor. Also I see Swampert Weakness. If Vaporeons and Magenezone are dead then yeah Swampert comes in and destroys your team. And Gyarados can hurt your team pretty badly w/ DDance Stone Edge Earthquake Waterfall Idk this is what I see for common uses today. Otherwise it's a pretty solid team. So heres what I've come up with:
Salamence (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk/176 Spd/80 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Fire Blast
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Hydro Pump

Keeps Latias with +1SpAtk/ SPDef from destroying your team. Keeps Gyarados from getting +1Speed and sweeping. But for swampert I guess your gonna have to let 1 pokemon die then switch to Magenzone and Magnetrise.