Balanced Teams in OU: Discuss

For a while now, I've wondered about the presence of balanced teams in the OU metagame. I've always either run heavy stall teams (which I'd rather not discuss my experience with) or pure offense teams (which went slightly better). I guess what I'm asking is how would one go about making a balanced team correctly and make sure that they are not simply using a worse form of offense.

Many users that I have battled put in a Skarmbliss/Skarmcress/Blisscress on what would otherwise be an offensive team. But the thing is, in the matchup against an offensive team, they're walling potential is highly diminished due to the fact that their two walls cannot beat a mixape/ddtar, whereas a pure stall team can put forth stuff like Cruel and Hippo for that job. In the area of offense, the balanced team is basically playing 4 versus 6.

Another thing I considered about balanced teams is those that use bulky set-up sweepers such as Suicune/Resttalk Gyara/BulkyGyara/Defensive Latias/etc. But these lack the power and movepools of their more offensive couterparts, are easier to wall, and an offensive team can play around them, set up, and sweep with its faster sweepers. Another downside is that these guys cannot break a stall, or have a far harder time of it than offensive teams.

It comes down to the fact that 3 stallers and 3 sweepers won't beat a specialized team, and 6 bulky pokemon...also won't beat a specialized team. Even if all the sweepers are mixed, they will still lose to an offensive team that has more powerful and faster pure sweepers (that don't need to split EV's) along with it's own mixed dudes, though the matchup against stall becomes interesting if not favorable. And since the pendulum of the metagame has swung heavily towards offense, it is quite foolish to take such a route.

My question is: how do balanced teams not only become viable, but a solid alternative to the pure teams on either side of the spectrum? I would guess that it has to do with using strong support components (eg Light Clay Bronzong), but...it's only a guess.

Or am I missing something completely?

Celetran + Bulky Water + Wallbreaker = Win. It sounds simple but that's the basis of many successful balanced teams I've seen. Yes people don't like Celetran but you can't deny it's results.

I think a difference needs to be made between what is defined as a 'balanced' team, and what is 'bulky offense'. I agree that running something like Cresselia / Blissey / Skarmory along with Infernape / Salamence / Gyarados is quite unviable, as what you're doing here is taking half of a defensive team and slapping on three sweepers heedlessly. I think this is what is generally referred to as 'balanced' teams, and is what a lot of newer players tend to do. However, running a team with Pokemon who all have some amount of bulk going for them, for example a team of Swampert / Tyranitar / Salamence / Celebi / Heatran / Lucario, is perfectly viable in OU imo.

I'm a big proponent of bulky offense and it is generally my favourite style of play. While using a slightly slower, bulkier team may sometimes become inferior to their more focused offensive counterparts in terms of pure damage output, I feel using bulky offense successfully is based less on flat out out-prediction, and so removes that element of uncertainty from matches. On a pure offensive team, if you're taken by surprise by an unusual moveset or an unexpected Choice Scarf, it can often mean you lose the game because you don't have any bulk to fall back on, and lose crucial sweepers and then don't have to power remaining to see your game through. However, haveing something like CeleTran, for example, as a backup means you aren't quite as devastated by surprises, because these Pokemon generally have enough bulk to take a hit from a usually slower opponent and not be taken out.

LR explains it better than I do. But yes by balance I pokes that have both offensive and defensive qualities like Celetran. So bulky offense is what I mean by balanced. Not half offensive pokes half stall pokes.

Defensive pokémon don't really serve as walls per se in balanced teams, they're more about coming in on something they resist and getting a support move in before a counter appears. They're good for slowing the pace of the game down a little bit.

I too find that bulky offence is the way to go, but also it's a good idea to have one or two utility pokemon that can heal status, spread status, get rid of SR, force stat boosters out of play and, if possible, heal the rest of the team. That way, you have a balanced team that has two ways of dealing with opponents: knocking them flying with a really powerful attack or attack combo, and slowly reducing them to dust.

I play "balanced" teams almost exclusively, so I would be happy to respond to this.

First of all, balanced isn't about having a mix of sweepers and walls, or anything like that. Arbitrarily throwing Blissey and Skarmory onto an "otherwise offensive team", as you put it, is probably a terrible idea (and if you are using Blissey, Skarmory, and Cresselia on the same team then you are certainly not playing balanced, lol). On the offensive side, balanced teams will seek to remove certain defensive threats through non-standard sets, lures, Pursuiters - any way possible - which will allow one or more Pokemon on the team to either sweep or open up more holes. A textbook example of this is using Tyranitar to remove Latias and Rotom and then spamming Fighting-type attacks. The only remaining Pokemon to take the hits are SR weak Pokemon such as Zapdos and Gyarados, which won't last long anyway. Infernape is particularly useful on this front, since Latias users rarely carry a second Infernape counter.

This is why I used to use U-turn + SD Scizor @ leftovers. People thought it was silly but it worked, since Scizor counters switching into U-turn will take SR damage and be swept by Scizor later in the game.

On the defensive end, balanced teams abuse the typing, stats, and movepools of "good" pokemon to never be put at a significant disadvantage in the first place. For this reason, a good balanced player will never ever ever ever ever run things like Blissey and Cresselia that are nothing more than an invitation for certain Pokemon (TTar, Scizor, Infernape, etc) to score a free kill, and things like Weavile and Porygon-Z which have almost zero defensive value are never used. Balanced teams will never give anything up "for free" unless the user misplays or the opponent is using something weird (GK Starmie is stupid).

The general idea of balanced is to break down certain walls through either pressure or tricks, while at the same time maintaining a strong defensive pose. To this end, you are severely undervaluing the power of bulky set-up sweepers (moreso Suicune and Latias than Gyarados, since it can't heal). Stall will rarely have anything to stop Suicune besides Celebi and Zapdos, both of which a balanced player loves to see since it means the opponent will likely be weakened just by spamming U-turn. Offensive pokemon have trouble breaking Suicune in general (though you have to watch out for SD sweepers). Latias is fast enough that offensive team hate it, and Stall teams can't do shit to it besides attack with Steels and Toxic with Blissey; both options are easily punished by double switching.

Also lol it isn't like balanced will split EVs just because it is a bit defensive. If I'm running Latias, it will have max Speed. Suicune will have max Defense. Skarmory will have max Defense. Tyranitar will have max Attack.

Just to give you a better idea of what "balanced" is (since I would guess by the OP and some of the responses that a lot of people don't have a good idea of it), here is a list of some of the most common elements of a balanced team:

• U-turn: the ultimate "no possible safe play" move. U-turn forces switches to rack up SR damage and keeps the initiative on your side.
• Close Combat: an incredible move for putting pressure on the opponent. Even an resistant Pokemon will not be able to switch into CC + SR more than once without fainting.
• Specialized Pokemon: balanced will frequently use item slots and moveslots for the sole porpoise of dealing with a specific Pokemon (or set of Pokemon). This is a quick way to deal with the team's weak points and force the opponent to base their strategies around Pokemon you can deal with anyway. Things like WoW + Reflect Rotom to wreck TTar; max Speed Jolly TTar to wreck Rotom; tye resist berry anything.
• Comboes: if there is a Magnezone, you had better believe that a whole lot of Dragon attacks are coming. If there is a Tyranitar, you should probably get ready for Infernape or Lucario.
• Choice Scarf sucks: I can't remember the last time I made a successful balanced team that ran a Scarf user. Limiting your options is the fastest way to get set up on and swept. Still, Choice Band is often useful, simply because it isn't easy to set up a Dragon Dance against CB Tar Crunch or a CB Salamence Dragon Claw, or whatever else you're using. Still, it is extremely dangerous to be locked into an attack that won't injure common speed boosters (I still get worried every time I use CB Tar Earthquake).

EDIT: yeah I forgot to mention trick. Scarf + Trick is another pretty basic balanced combination since it makes things like Blissey, Celebi, Forretress, etc almost use less. Trick Scarf Rotom isn't so bad since Gyara / Mence / Metagross still suck at speed boosting against it.

Also if anyone has questions feel free to ask...I will be more than happy to defend my favorite team type!

Regarding the suckiness of choice scarf: what if it is coupled with trick?

Tay, wondering what you thought about Resttalk Tar for bulky offense? It's been a staple of mine, not least because it pretty much laughs at any Latias set out there. (He's lost once to some Latias that tried Outrage or something, but that was just what the heck)

I've used scarf latias on a balanced team to some success. He is a magnet for choiced pursuit. Fun with luke.

One of the best tricks to being able to build successful balanced teams from my experience is to have a general offensive strategy while at the same time carrying resists to each type in the game, generally twice per type if possible. I've built an extremely successful bulky offense team in the past by using "Salamence + Jirachi" and "Celebi + Heatran", which were able to deal heavy amounts of damage since I did not run purely defensive sets, while at the same time being able to take hits simply because of good overall defensive stats. From my own observations, most balanced teams, if not all, should have a form of effective priority since a balanced team absolutely needs something to fall back on should Salamence or anything along those lines gets a stat boost.

On a completely different note, I think we should establish a definition of what it means for a team to be balanced in order to have a wider range of appropriate discussion for this topic, since a universal definition of "balanced teams" has yet to be known, and we cannot build a solid argument on something (a definition) that we might not agree upon.

I was all ready to make a long post, but pretty much what TAY said, lol. Saves me a bit of time....I do like scarfers a tad more but I'm very careful with them, often pairing it with trick.

Thanks for the responses. I truly had no idea what a balanced team was before now.

But I was wondering, if balanced teams have an antipathy towards a Choice Scarf, how do they go about dealing with stuff like DDMence and DDGyara? No Choice Scarf bars a revenge kill, and it goes without saying that you guys won't use Weavile or Jolteon or Cresselia. I know the point is that you don't get to that point in the first place, but it has to have happened more than once, right?

I get that Scizor can deal with a DDMence that has taken prior damage, but what if it comes in, for example, after your Celebi has just killed a Swampert? How would a player with a balanced team go about dealing with such a threat? All I've ever known is revenge killing or using a Cresselia (or hoping for luck with a Swampert).

Flashstorm1 said:

One of the best tricks to being able to build successful balanced teams from my experience is to have a general offensive strategy while at the same time carrying resists to each type in the game, generally twice per type if possible. I've built an extremely successful bulky offense team in the past by using "Salamence + Jirachi" and "Celebi + Heatran", which were able to deal heavy amounts of damage since I did not run purely defensive sets, while at the same time being able to take hits simply because of good overall defensive stats. From my own observations, most balanced teams, if not all, should have a form of effective priority since a balanced team absolutely needs something to fall back on should Salamence or anything along those lines gets a stat boost.

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Despite not using these combos of Pokemon, that was pretty much the recipe to my best team too. You can switch in on threats, take crap for damage, and hit back hard, if you have a team of bulky Pokemon with a good variety of resistances. Throw in a speedster or two, and you're set. Offense, defense, and speed, what's not to like...

But I was wondering, if balanced teams have an antipathy towards a Choice Scarf, how do they go about dealing with stuff like DDMence and DDGyara? No Choice Scarf bars a revenge kill, and it goes without saying that you guys won't use Weavile or Jolteon or Cresselia. I know the point is that you don't get to that point in the first place, but it has to have happened more than once, right?

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You use stuff that can take one or two hits from those things. I largely agree with Tay on Choice Scarf, as I find it to be an absolutely terrible item that lets your ass get set up on really, really well. It is useful for tricking because it's just not that useful of an item, but that's about it.

mtr12,
Celebi can t-wave if a salamence or gyarados try to set up on it. I also do not see how that stops scizzor from revenge killing with bullet punch (priority).
However, I'm only in this thread because I want to read the posts of contributors (such as Legacy Raider, Tay, and Flashstorm), as I find things such as this interesting. Therefore I'll try and let their posts do the talking:

From my own observations, most balanced teams, if not all, should have a form of effective priority since a balanced team absolutely needs something to fall back on should Salamence or anything along those lines gets a stat boost.

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Tay also mentioned the importance of u-turn from such things as scizor (which then implies use of bullet punch as well); lucario also gets extreme speed.

Limiting your options is the fastest way to get set up on and swept. Still, Choice Band is often useful, simply because it isn't easy to set up a Dragon Dance against CB Tar Crunch or a CB Salamence Dragon Claw, or whatever else you're using. Still, it is extremely dangerous to be locked into an attack that won't injure common speed boosters (I still get worried every time I use CB Tar Earthquake).

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Tay mentioned the presense of pokemon that set up (and boost speed) as precisely the reason behind the lack of choice scarfers.
Anyway, if you rely on choice scarfers you're bound to get owned by speed boosting pokemon meant to outspeed them (jolly DDmence; Agilligross running enough speed to outspeed nuetral +1 base 100s).

EDIT:
What exactly do you mean by breaking down walls with pressure? Most have recovery of some sort, thus making it seem like simple "pressure" isn't good enough (compared to a hard smash).

I do agree on the Choice Scarf as well, as something like DD Gyarados and T-Tar can somewhat accompany eachother on a team (I'm not talking about a combination, but just a whole) as people use things like Scarf Rotom, Starmie, etc. Can be either set-up fodder by a DD T-Tar or die from pursuit by a CB T-Tar. The thing is, with the lack of Choice Scarf, what makes a revenge killer other than priority? Is a revenge killer really needed in teams?

I play a rather Stall-Based Balance Team, different from Bulky Offense, utilizing SR+Spikes with the defensive typing-stats/moves to force switches. Also using Choice users as backup plans or to help with some Offense.

TAY already said alot of things good like(I'll list my Favs =D):
-On the defensive end, abuse typing/stats/movepools of Pokemon.
-Dont give up things "for free"
-Breaking down walls through pressure or tricks
-Specialized pokemon
-Combos
-Scarf usage for Trick
-Priority moves/Scouting

It may seem Balanced Teams have an antipathy towards a Choice Scarf. But if you can fit one in your team, it wouldn't hurt. If you do use it in your team, you have to be extremely cautious because an early false move will definitely give you an disadvantage. I'll tell you my favorite Scarfer is Gengar because it out speeds so much things, destroys shiet with its nice Sp.Atk and very nice typing. Yea, I use it to revenge kill or late-game sweep too. The nice thing is it about has Trick that people already mentioned to fuk up some common switch-ins or dent it with one move.

Yes, my options are limited because it is locked in a move, but you have to use it in an ideal situation. Back to Gengar, you have to make sure that Gengar can seriously dent something. Or see if there is nothing to stop it or kill it(T-Tar/Scizor.) If there are, you have to make sure if Gengar dies, you should have something in your sleeve that can take advantage of that revenge kill(hence, not giving things up "for free.") Like if T-Tar/Scizor Pursuits me, I know its CB, so I put it something that can set up an advantage like a SubHeatran, etc.

Edit:I think Heatran is one of the best Balanced Poke in DPPt because it forces so many switches(fares nicely againstboth offense/stall,) good Pokemon combos, nice typing, and good movepool.

Btw, I would never use something like Weavile or Jolteon in my team because they doesn't necessarily have the best typing.

Ok, I would never let a Celebi kill my Swampert until I know I have a huge advantage with something I switch in against it if Swampert dies. Hence again, "not giving up things for free." Even at 11%, I wouldn't let Swampert die yet because I know in some way I can use it as fodder or as a scout in the trouble. It is pretty obvious they would grass knot or use an attack against you. So just switch in something that can take its hit like the Anti-Celebi: Heatran. When a Mence comes in, I can put in that Swampert and scout its move. Usually though, I revenge kill Mence after its been locked by Outrage or is in OHKO range. But lets say Swampert did go down, you better hope you have other answers to it or you need to rebuild your team.

I'm a big fan of the consistency of balanced, bulky offense in OU. You can really just go on autopilot while laddering and rack up the wins, as even surprises won't faze your team too much.

I was just using a hypothetical situation with the Celebi and the Swampert. Dammit, I needed something! But I didn't think of Twaving on the set-up. I always overthink things about a DDmence.

Mixed teams can also be built like this:
Try to find a offensive combo to destroy stallteams (for example Breloom + CB Tyranitar) and put some defensive Pokemon (Walls+Tanks) onto it (Cresselia, Swampert, Zapdos, ...).

But don't let the tanks be to defensive or your opponent is going to take freeturns!
They should also be a bit offensive. (CM Cresse, SD Gliscor, ...)

I ran a fairly old-school balanced team for quite some time and had a fair bit of success with it. TAY said what I would have said, except much better, so I don't feel the need to really elaborate.

I disagree with Scarf being completely awful though. A Choice Scarf user with decent power behind them can be used well. The trick is to use it when they don't expect it, and use that surprise speed to put something down quickly. For example, Scarf Starmie is an amazing revenge killer. With speed boosters such as DD Gyarados and DD Mence being so popular, it's one of the most reliable checks against them you can find. They expect to outrun you after a Dance, and are thrown off completely when they get OHKOed by Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Even better is that you can outrun them while still putting a fair amount of EVs in HP for longevity. The key is to run Scarf where they don't expect it to surgically remove threats to your team whom you otherwise have trouble with, especially speed boosters. It can backfire, as TAY pointed out, but it can pay off as well.

I find the Choice Scarf most useful on Pokemon you wouldn't expect to use it. A choice scarf or a priority user is something that I always use just in case I misplay and get set up on. I ran a trick-scarf latias with Draco, surf, and Thunderbolt, just to slay dragons and gyrardos. You switch in on the DD, and Kill with Draco Meteor, then switch out. If they predict and switch in a wall, you just use trick the next time around.

What if they decided to Outrage right away the second time, because they knew Latias was coming in?

Nobody would predict a scarf latias would be coming in because:

| Latias | Item | Leftovers | 45.3 |
| Latias | Item | Life Orb | 25.9 |
| Latias | Item | Choice Specs | 15.8 |
| Latias | Item | Other (4) | < 7.9 |

If anything, they would predict some other counter/scarf-user and use the appropriate move, whether it be DD or an attack, or switch.