Ninetales (Gen 4, full revamp)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ninetales


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[OVERVIEW]

<p>While Ninetales sits uncomfortably in the UU tier crowded with many other Fire-types, failing to impress with a somewhat meek Special Attack attribute, it finds redeeming value with one crucial aspect. Ninetales has a pretty unique movepool that notably includes Hypnosis, Nasty Plot, and Energy Ball for a type that notoriously has restricted movepools. Ninetales may be a little unusual, but it still proves to be an effective special sweeper in UU nevertheless.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hypnosis / Hidden Power Rock
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Ninetales has an adequate Special Attack stat, but after a Nasty Plot boost Ninetales will reach 522 Special Attack, which is high enough to deal serious damage. The basic strategy is to use Hypnosis to place an opponent to sleep, which allow Ninetales to set up easily. Fire Blast and Energy Ball provide optimal coverage, hitting everything except Flying-types. Hidden Power Rock could replace Hypnosis if you feel like hitting Moltres and Swellow for super effective damage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>This set is very simple to use; start by sending Ninetales in on a Pokemon it forces out, such as Steelix or a Choiced Fire-type attack, and proceed to Nasty Plot on the switch. If you opt for Hypnosis however, you may put a slower enemy or a counter to sleep, and then proceed to use Nasty Plot. The accuracy of Hypnosis can be troublesome, so Hidden Power Rock can be an alternative to increase your coverage, stopping other Fire-types with Flash Fire from forcing you out, and furthering your chances to pull off a sweep. Without Hypnosis however, you will have a challenging task trying to threaten opponents with Ninetale's adequate Special Attack and to score Nasty Plot boosts on predicted switches. Flamethrower is a solid choice as a STAB move, because Ninetales cannot afford to miss; however, Fire Blast is preferred, as it adds extra power to guarantee a OHKO on standard Registeel with Stealth Rock in play. Flamethrower will deal 87.36% - 102.75% to standard Registeel, leaving the potential to miss a OHKO. Energy Ball deals with Water and Rock-types.</p>

<p>Life Orb is generally the best item option to give Ninetales extra power. It allows you to 2HKO both Probopass and Hypno with Fire Blast. Leftovers is a generic option to replenish HP loss from entry hazards and improve survivability. If you choose to use Hidden Power Rock instead of Hypnosis, Life Orb will be a better option, because you will force fewer switches if you receive Leftovers recovery when switching into entry hazards and you reveal that you are not carrying Choice Specs right away.</p>

<p>Ninetales works great alongside Venusaur because it is neutral to Ground attacks but it can still come in on Water attacks. With Venusaur in, it can threaten bulky Waters with a STAB Grass attack and force them to switch out. Defensively, bulky Waters are peachy with Ninetales. Bulky Waters like Slowbro, Milotic, and Mantine generally manage attacks launched at Ninetales well. They are capable of handling Altaria and Camerupt, which could be a bothersome for Ninetales.</p>

[SET]
name: Double Status
move 1: Hypnosis
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Overheat / Fire Blast
item: Wide Lens
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is not as threatening as the previous set but it could still be useful to spread status. Double status is a simple concept: place something to Sleep the first turn, and hope to inflict something with Will-O-Wisp on the switch. Energy Ball paired with your STAB move should suffice for decent coverage. However, you will miss out on hitting Flying-types.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The set is quite simple but requires prediction to pull off double status. You put an opponent to sleep with Hypnosis and use Will-O-Wisp on physical attackers to burn them. Overheat is more preferred for extra damage because you will be switching out most of the time, while Fire Blast is another option if you think Ninetales will hang around for a while and eventually be a late game sweeper for you. Energy Ball provides extra coverage to harm Rock and Water-types. Wide Lens is required for this set to boost the pitiful accuracy of Hypnosis, Will-O-Wisp and Fire Blast. Overheat has high accuracy and it will hit most of the time.</p>

<p>Like mentioned in the other set, Venusaur make an excellent switch-in after Ninetales, since it has an excellent bulk from both sides, while coming in on Water-type hits. Defensively, bulky Waters can handle Arcanine and other Fire-types that can easily switch in on a Will-O-Wisp, and attempt to scare away Ninetales. Arcanine has the ability Flash Fire and can switch in on your Fire attacks on this set. Slowbro and Milotic are the perfect candidates to handle Arcanine because they can take the physical attacks thrown at them and Arcanine has trouble dealing with bulky Waters.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast
move 2: Energy Ball
move 3: Extrasensory
move 4: Hidden Power Rock
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Speed

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>A Choice Specs set gives Ninetales a needed boost to attack without the risk involved with setting up Nasty Plot, and in addition to increasing type coverage. Overheat is a preferable choice if you like to hit and run, while Fire Blast can be used continuously and can be exploited late game. Energy Ball deals with bulky Waters and Rock-types. Extrasensory helps against Fighting-types that resist Fire moves, such as Blaziken and Hariyama.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>What distinguishes Ninetales from other Fire-types in UU is access to a Grass move (other than Solarbeam), which grants the freedom to choose a different Hidden Power type and further coverage. This distinct advantage is shared only with higher tier Pokemon like Infernape (Grass Knot) and consequentially carves a niche for Ninetales in UU. Although, Houndoom will often overpower Energy Ball with STAB Dark Pulse against Water-types, due to higher Special Attack, it still does not have the same diversity as Ninetales.</p>

<p>The EVs given to this set give Ninetales just enough Speed to outpace base 95 Pokemon, since it will no longer tie with base 100 due to the Speed drop caused by Hidden Power Rock. In UU, the only other base 100 speed Pokemon that could potentially out-speed you with Hidden Power Rock are other Fire-types. The extra EVs were placed in HP, though they may be placed back into Speed if opposing Ninetales are a concern. You could go with a basic 252 SpA / 252 Speed spread if you are not planning to use Hidden Power Rock, so you can tie with other base 100.</p>

<p>Since this set often requires switching out, a reliable bulky water with access to a recovery move, such as Milotic and Slowbro work great alongside Ninetales. A Venusaur working with Ninetales will incur frequent hits from Ninetales constantly switching out.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Ninetales is a unique Pokemon that has access to both Hypnosis and Nasty Plot. Ninetales is a great asset to any team because it can come in on Fire-type attacks, spread status, and is still be a fearsome sweeper. Ninetales potential to hurt walls is helped by entry hazards such as Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. With Toxic Spikes on the field, it has a chance to beat its counters and provide extra damage at the end of every turn. Ninetales scares away common Steel-types in UU today such as Steelix and Registeel, which allow you to use Hypnosis or Nasty Plot, either way you have the upper hand if you switch in on them.</p>

<p>The Pokemon that are a bothersome to Ninetales are Flash Fire users such as Arcanine and Houndoom who can slow Ninetales down and will usually force Ninetales to switch out. An appropriate bulky water is required to frighten both Houndoom and Arcanine and the perfect candidate that works great alongside Ninetales is Milotic. Milotic can aid Ninetales because it can take constant hits directed at them and can easily replenish its HP with Recovery. Ninetales also has a hard time dealing with Chansey and Clefable who invest heavily in both HP and Special Defense. Hariyama works great alongside Ninetales who can really threaten opposing Clefable and Chansey. With its titanic HP it can take a number of Seismic Toss and Hariyama usually doesn’t mind switching in on status because of the ability Guts. Ninetales has trouble dealing damage to bulky Waters without a Nasty Plot. Venusaur can take attacks from bulky waters and attempt to scare them away with a STAB Grass Move. A common strategy for Ninetales – which separates him from other Fire-types in UU is to use Hypnosis on a counter or a slower Pokemon and proceed to use Nasty Plot.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Dark Pulse has more neutral coverage than Extrasensory, but there is never much reason to use it when it never surpasses the damage output of STAB Fire Blast or Overheat. Grudge can be helpful to let a team member set up if you can strip away all the PP of an opponent's main attacking move. For example, you can deprive Milotic of Surf or remove all of Chansey's Seismic Tosses. Confuse Ray and Safeguard are also available, but are poor choices when compared to her other options. Ninetales can use Calm Mind but usually Nasty Plot will be more effective. Substitute is another option which allows you to avoid Toxic users such as Moltres and Clefable.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Chansey is a bane to Ninetales like any other special attacker. In addition to doing paltry damage against it, attempts to status Chansey are thwarted by Natural Cure. Prospects against enemy Clefable are similarly grim, as it has an innumerable amount of status options it can use to quickly put Ninetales out of commission. Without a Nasty Plot boost, Altaria also stops it with its incredible bulk, as Hidden Power Rock will deal around 73.29% - 86.30% on 4 HP / 0 Special Defense Altaria with Stealth Rock in play after a Nasty Plot boost.</p>

<p>In general, Ninetales is pretty vulnerable to bulkier Water-types, unless it gets a much needed Nasty Plot, as non-STAB Energy Ball will do less than you think even when it is super effective. SleepTalk Milotic could especially be devastating to Ninetales if it switched in on a predicted Hypnosis.</p>

<p>Without Hidden Power Rock, Ninetales can give opposing Fire-types an easy time to switch in on. Houndoom, Blaziken, and Arcanine all will have little trouble, while Sub-Roost Moltres will be a complete nightmare. Mixed Typhlosion can force out or faint Ninetales in most cases if it has Earthquake. Without Extrasensory, Hariyama would also stop Ninetales easily.</p>

Why do you still have Hidden Power Ice and Electric as the main Hidden Power options? What do you hit specifically with Hidden Power Ice, Altaria? Mantine with Electric? For pretty much any other flying type, you will hit harder with your STAB fire move than you will with a super effective Hidden Power. That seems pretty antiquated to me. Blaziken and Houndoom can take pretty much anything Ninetales can throw at it if you use those types, which I think is a bigger concern now.

Hidden Power Rock would give you a super effective weapon against other fire types and the best coverage overall. In exchange, you only lose your speed tie to timid Specs Typhlosion, jolly/timid Charizard, and Subseed Shaymin. None of them immediately threaten Ninetales. I definitely think it would be the best option by far. You could use Hidden Power Ground or Water for opposing Fire types as well, but you are once again walled by Altaria. It probably should not even be a slashed option because the speed ties lost with Hidden Power Rock is such a non-issue. You should only be trying to out-speed positive base 95 speed Pokemon.

franky said:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ninetales

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• Revamped two sets, mostly left Double Status alone
• Added Hidden Power Rock on two sets
• Removed leftovers as an option on the second set
• Changed EVs to reflect the speed difference using Hidden Power Rock
• Swapped Dark Pulse for Extrasensory on the Choice Set, since it has more use.

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hypnosis / Hidden Power Rock
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Ninetales has a modest Special Attack stat, but after a Nasty Plot boost Ninetales will reach 522 Special Attack, which is high enough to deal serious damage. This set is very simple to use, put slower enemies or counters to sleep with Hypnosis, then proceed to use Nasty Plot. The accuracy of Hypnosis can be troublesome, so Hidden Power Rock can be an alternative to increase your coverage, stopping other Fire-types with Flash Fire from forcing you out. Without Hypnosis, you will have an unfortunately challenging task trying to threaten opponents with Ninetales to score Nasty Plot boosts on predicted switches. Flamethrower is the preferred Fire STAB here because Ninetales cannot afford to miss, however, Fire Blast adds extra power to guarantee a OHKO on standard Registeel with Stealth Rock in play. Flamethrower will deal 87.36% - 102.75% to standard Registeel, leaving the potential to miss a OHKO. Energy Ball deals with Water and Rock-types.</p>

<p>Life Orb is generally the best item option because the extra power it gives you will be more useful, especially if you fail to get any Nasty Plot boosts. Leftovers is a somewhat generic option to mitigate damage from entry hazards and improve survivability. If you choose to use Hidden Power Rock instead of Hypnosis, Life Orb will be a better option, because you will force fewer switches if you receive Leftovers recovery when switching into hazards and you reveal you are not carrying Choice Specs right away.</p>

<p>Ninetales works great alongside Shaymin and Roserade. Shaymin can easily come in on attacks directed at Ninetales, and while Roserade is neutral to Ground attacks, it can still come in on Water attacks. Shaymin and Roserade both threaten bulky waters with a STAB Grass attack and force them to switch out. Defensively, bulky waters are peachy with Ninetales. Bulky waters like Slowbro, Milotic, and Mantine generally manage attacks launched at Ninetales well. Bulky waters are strong against Altaria and Camerupt. which could be a bothersome for Ninetales.</p>

[SET]
name: Double Status
move 1: Hypnosis
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Overheat / Fire Blast
item: Wide Lens
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is not as offensively threatening as the previous set, but it's very useful nonetheless. Sleep an opponent and hit physical attackers with a burn. Overheat is suggested as your STAB move, since you'll be switching out more often than with the sweeper set. If you think Ninetales will hang around for a few turns, or maybe pull off a sweep late in the game, go with Fire Blast. Similar to the common Rapidash in many ways, but Ninetales isn't as worried by Water-types as her equine counterpart is. Wide Lens is should be the designated item option, to give a slight accuracy boost to Hypnosis, Will-O-Wisp and Fire Blast.</p>

<p>Like mentioned in the other sets, both Shaymin and Roserade make excellent switch ins after Ninetails, since they both have the ability Natural Cure and won't mind Thunder Waves from the opponents attempting to cripple Ninetales. Defensively, bulky waters can handle Blaziken and other Fire-Types that can easily switch in on a Will-O-Wisp and attempt to scare away Ninetales. Slowbro handles both of Blaziken's STAB attacks and threatens with Surf.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast
move 2: Energy Ball
move 3: Extrasensory
move 4: Hidden Power Rock
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>A Choice Specs set gives Ninetales a needed boost to special attack without the risk involved with setting up Nasty Plot, in addition to increasing type coverage. Of the two best STAB options, Overheat is a preferable choice if you like to hit and run, while Fire Blast can be used continuously and is superior late game. Energy Ball deals with bulky waters and rock types. Extrasensory helps against Fighting-types that resist Fire moves, such as Blaziken and Hariyama, to hit for super effective damage. Thick Fat Hariyama will take little damage from your attacks otherwise. Hidden Power Rock will be your best Hidden Power option, since it hits opposing Fire-types like Blaziken and Houndoom, which all of your other attacks are weak against. Among other Hidden Power options, Water could also be used against Fire-Types without lowering your speed, but is walled by Altaria. Conversely, Hidden Power Ice is a OHKO for most Altaria, but then coverage is lost against Fire-Types. </p>

<p>What distinguishes Ninetales from other Fire-Types in UU, is access to a Grass move (other than Solarbeam), which grants the freedom to choose a different Hidden Power type and further coverage. This distinct advantage is shared only with higher tier Pokemon like Infernape (Grass Knot) and conseqentially carves a niche for Ninetales in UU. Although, Houndoom will often outdamage Energy Ball with STAB Dark Pulse against Water-types, due to higher special attack, it still does not have the same diversity as Ninetales.</p>

<p>The EVs given to this set give Ninetales just enough speed to outpace base 95 Pokemon, since it will no longer tie other base 100. In UU, the only other base 100 speed Pokemon that could potentially out-speed you with Hidden Power Rock are other Fire-Types and Shaymin. The extra EVs were placed in HP, though they may be placed back into speed if opposing Ninetales are a concern. </p>

<p> Since this set often requires switching out, a reliable bulky water with access to a recovery move, such as Milotic and Slowbro pair well with it. A Shaymin working with Ninetales will incur frequent hits from Ninetales constantly switching out, so it is recommended that Shaymin carries Rest to heal off the damage.</p>

[Other Options]

<p> Dark Pulse has more neutral coverage than Extrasensory, but there is never much reason to use it when it never surpasses the damage output of STAB Fire Blast or Overheat. Grudge can be helpful to let a team member set up if you can strip away all the PP of an opponent's main attacking move. For example, you can deprive Suicune of Surf or remove all of Blissey's Seismic Tosses. Confuse Ray and Safeguard are also available, but are poor choices when compared to her other options. Ninetales can use Calm Mind but usually Nasty Plot will be more effective. </p>

[EVs]

</p> Since Ninetales should be timid nature, max Special Attack and Speed while placing the remaining 4 EVs anywhere but in HP. An odd base HP already reduces Stealth Rock and Sandstorm damage, so 4 EVs in HP would be detrimental. Should you decide to use Hidden Power Rock, which requires a 30 Speed IV, you can no longer tie the base 100 Speed Pokemon and should aim only to beat base 95. 220 Speed EVs lets you beat those, so you are free to put the remaining 36 EVs in HP. </p>

[Opinion]

<p> While Ninetales sits uncomfortably in the UU tier crowded with many other Fire-Types, failing to impress with a somewhat meek Special Attack attribute, it finds redeeming value with one crucial aspect. Ninetales has a pretty unique move-pool that notably includes Hypnosis, Nasty Plot, and Energy Ball for a type that notoriously has restricted move-pools. Ninetales may be a little unusual, but it still proves to be an effective special sweeper in UU nevertheless.</p>

[Counters]

<p> In UU, Chansey is the bane of Ninetales like any other special attacker. In addition to doing paltry damage against it, attempts to status Chansey are thwarted by Natural Cure. Prospects against enemy Clefable are similarly grim, as it has an innumerable amount of status options it can use to quickly put Ninetales out of commission. Without a Nasty Plot boost, Altaria also stops Ninetails if it carries Earthquake, as Hidden Power Rock is squarely only a 2HKO even with Choice Specs and Stealth Rock damage accounted for. </p>

<p> In general, Ninetales is pretty vulnerable to bulkier Water-Types (Slowbro, Lanturn, Mantine, etc), unless it gets a much needed Nasty Plot, as non-STAB Energy Ball will do less than you think even when it is super effective. Sleep-Talk Milotic could especially be devastating to Ninetales if it switched in on a predicted Hypnosis.</p>

<p> Without Hidden Power Rock, Ninetales is pretty easily disposed of by competing Fire-Types. Houndoom, Blaziken, and Arcanine all will have little trouble, while Sub-Roost Moltress will be a complete nightmare. Mixed Typhlosion, can force out or faint Ninetales in most cases if it has Earthquake. Without Extrasensory, Hariyama would also stop Ninetales easily. </p>

Click to expand...

*Highlighted Changes*

Halfway in, you started spelling Ninetales as Ninetails, so I fixed that.

I just flat out removed Substitute from your Nasty Plot set, because really, any opportunity you have to set up a Substitute you should just Nasty Plot. I guess you avoid statuses using Substitute, but if you are not going to be using Hypnosis, you will be far better off with better attacking coverage.

The double status set you wrote is nearly identical to the one already on the analysis, so you may as well keep that one relatively untouched (except for more emphasis on Wide Lens due to the accuracy drop in Hypnosis).

I bascially re-wrote the entire Choice set incorporating all of my suggestions, because the one here I think is largely ineffective.

I changed Other Options and EVs to reflect the changes I made also.

^So with HP Rock reducing Ninetales' speed, 220 EVs are required to outpace base 95s, not the 216 that you mention.

@ OP: On the first set, you should remove any mention of Chansey with Flamethower / Toxic / Wish / Protect, as it simply has no competitive use. On the Specs set, more emphasis should be placed on comparisons with Houndoom. For instance, Dark STAB + much higher special attack means that its Dark Pulse outdamages Ninetales' Energy Ball on any Water type without a secondary type that makes it either resistant to Dark or 4x weak to Grass. I would also put Extrasensory as an option on the set (mainly for Hariyama, a very common threat) as it is genuinely something that Ninetales has over Houndoom.

Thanks Lemmiwinks, I added your suggestions.

Edit - Come to think of it, what do you hit harder with Dark Pulse than you would STAB Fire Blast/Overheat? It might be better to replace Dark Pulse with Extrasensory, and keep Hidden Power Rock.

You should slash in HP Rock on pretty much every set for many reasons:

Firstly, Moltres. Moltres walling and forcing you out is the opposite of what you want, because with a free Sub, SubRoost Stall Moltres is very annoying / dangerous.

Secondly, (Flash) Fire Pokemon. Arcanine and Houndoom wall this set, and cant even be hurt by a +2 Fire Blast like Blaziken can. With all of the fire types running around, you need something to hit them Super Effective at least, giving Magmortar a free attack can spell Death for almost any Pokemon.

Thirdly, Altaria. Altaria is a bitch, and hitting it Super Effective is a big plus, especially when some variants cant hurt Ninetails too badly, allowing it to easily set up.

Hidden Power Electric does shit-all, and Altaria isnt as common as the Fire Types, making Hidden Power Ice quite inferior to Rock.

Yea. Other than that it looks alright, grammar isnt my thing, so ill leave that up to the grammar pros like Katherine :D.

My 2 cents.

Alright, I got around to editing the Nasty Plot set, and expounded upon the entire revamp by altering Other Option slightly, adding EVs, writing an Opinion that does not sound like it was written the day Diamond/Pearl were released, and by touching on Counters a bit.

Where's the Team Options section?

Like mentioned in the other sets both Shaymin and Roserade make excellent switch ins to Ninetails.

Click to expand...

are you joking

Chris is me said:

Where's the Team Options section?



are you joking

Click to expand...

I can write a Team Options section tomorrow if nobody cares to do it beforehand.

Fire/Grass/Rock gives unresisted type coverage, I am relatively sure. It hits everything for at least neutral damage.

Great options, however. Ninetales really is an underrated Pokemon by all means.

Apparently, you have already writted up and shown the sections to Caelum. Get them up soon, please.

franky said:

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hypnosis / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Ninetales has a respectable Special Attack stat and after Nasty Plot, it will reach 522 Special Attack which is high enough to detriment a number of pokemon in UU. (sounds weird. "detriment" is not the right word in this context. Cosmic Jeff's edits would work here) This set is very simple (better proofreading please), use Hypnosis to put a slower pokemon or a counter to sleep and proceed to use Nasty Plot. If the accuracy of Hypnosis is troubling you, Substitute could go in that place instead. Use Substitute to threaten the opposing pokemon (remove "to switch out") and scout out the opponents next pokemon. Behind a Substitute, you would proceed to use Nasty Plot and commence with sweeping. Substitute also allows you to battle with Clefable and Chansey who run Flamethrower / Toxic / Wish / Protect. You are immune to Flamethrower and Substitute will allow you to dodge status. Flamethrower is (removed "more") preferred because Ninetales cannot afford a miss while Fire Blast adds extra power to guarantee yourself a OHKO on standard Registeel with Stealth Rock in play. Flamethrower will deal 87.36% - 102.75% to standard Registeel and has a chance to miss OHKO. Energy Ball deals with Water and Rock-types.</p>

<p>If you want more type coverage and you have an effective sleep support on your team or don't prefer Substitute, you could place Dark Pulse on the last slot. You could replace your Energy Ball to Hidden Power Ice to hit Altaria but you would lose coverage on Water-types.</p> (Probably a mention of HP Rock here)

<p>Life Orb gives you extra power to 2HKO both Probopass and Hypno with Fire Blast while Leftovers will help alongside Substitute to recover HP loss from Substitute. Leftovers is something you would prefer if you mind the 10% HP drop and prefer more survability.</p>

<p>Ninetales works great alongside Shaymin and Roserade. Shaymin can easily come in on attacks directed at Ninetails, while Roserade is neutral to ground attack but can still come in on water attacks directed at Ninetales (come on man, did you even proofread this? you spelled the pokemons name wrong...). Shaymin and Roserade threaten bulky waters with a STAB Grass attack and force them to switch out. Defensively, bulky waters are peachy with Ninetails. Bulky waters like Slowbro, Milotic, Mantine and Slowking can work great and take the damage directed at Ninetails. Bulky waters can handle Altaria, Camerupt which could be a bothersome to Ninetails.</p>

Click to expand...

Fire Blast should probably be the first option over Flamethrower. 81 base SpAtk is not much, 9tails would love that extra power.

Also, the prose here really needs some work both grammatically and structure-wise. You can follow Cosmic Jeff's post for a more thorough guide to making changes, I got discouraged when I saw that you spelled "Ninetales" wrong on multiple occasions. You spelled it correctly but then spelled it incorrectly later on in both the first and second sets. Making spelling errors here and there is one thing but there really isnt any excuse to misspell the name of the pokemon youre writing about as many times as you did =\

Also, I dont really buy the argument that Moltres walls Ninetales. With Nasty Plot and Substitute, I don't see how Moltres is going to get past Ninetales, while it can just stat up and fire away with Flamethrower. What is Moltres going to do? 9tails is faster, subs to be immune to Toxic and it is already immune to Flamethrower. Moltres can probably outstall Fire Blast versions with Pressure but I don't think Ninetales really gives a shit about Moltres other than that. HP Rock is a cool option, like it is on every fire type, but I'm not really sure if it warrants a whole move slot.

Moltres can Air Slash, or SubRoost stall, depending on the variant while taking lol damage from Fire attacks. Once Ninetails runs out of Fire Blasts....(which it will, even if they break the sub every time Moltres can sub more than 4 times). It would be really silly to leave Ninetails in on Moltres, but with HP rock it can take out Moltres while also hitting other Fire Types who also wall Ninetails.

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hidden Power Rock
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed

This is how this set should look, with possible mention of Substitute and Hypnosis in the set comments, along with other Hidden Powers. Without Hidden Power Rock, Altaria, Fire-types, Mantine, etc. all wall you to pieces, and Fire-types are even more common in UU than they were when this set was updated with Hidden Power Rock. Leftovers and Flamethrower are very nonsensical, as Ninetales should be going as offensive as it can to make up for its average Special Attack.

;edit: Okay, I believe the overall consensus is to include both HP Rock and Hypnosis on the set with Substitute and other Hidden Powers in Set Comments.

RL; The most effective version of the set is meant for the main move listing, while other versions to reflect separate play styles and usability can be listed in Set Comments. I suppose Flamethrower deserves immediate mention on the set, though (it still 2HKOes Calm Chansey at +6).

and jrrrrrrr, I honestly kind of disagree (but am in no way affiliated with HeYsUp!!) for reasons already stated by RL, HeYsUp, and Polis4Rule.

diin, I really think that Hypnosis and Substitute are good enough to deserve places in the 4th moveslot.

| Ninetales | Move | Energy Ball | 87.9 |
| Ninetales | Move | Nasty Plot | 82.7 |
| Ninetales | Move | Flamethrower | 55.1 |
| Ninetales | Move | Hypnosis | 52.1 |
| Ninetales | Move | Fire Blast | 40.0 |
| Ninetales | Move | Dark Pulse | 14.9 |
| Ninetales | Move | HP-Water | 14.6 |
| Ninetales | Move | HP-Rock | 11.0 |
| Ninetales | Move | Calm Mind | 6.2 |
| Ninetales | Move | Other (10) | < 4.7 |

Click to expand...

As you can see, Hypnosis is the fourth most common move on Ninetales. It should definitely be in the set. Same with Flamethrower, since you are actually walled by Moltres and the like if you use Fire Blast, but NP + FT will let you beat it. If you go by stats, Hypnosis should be the main option on the last moveslot, and Flamethrower should be the main option over Fire Blast. Even Dark Pulse is used more than HP Rock, which leads me to believe that you guys are just theorymonning the set out. And if we're going to do that, we might as well just include Substitute since it basically just flips Moltres off, turning Fire-types into set-up bait.

And I don't really understand where people are getting this "Ninetales is walled by other Fire-types" reasoning from. What is Moltres going to do to Ninetales other than Toxic? Its weak Air Slash isn't going to do much to Ninetales' 100 base SpDef, and after you get to +6 SpAtk I'm pretty sure Flamethrower will deal enough damage to beat the stalling. Also, I find it hard to believe that Moltres wins if it comes into Stealth Rock as Ninetales NPs. Everyone is completely forgetting Hypnosis too. Ninetales is one of the fastest Fire-types in the game, so its not like Fire-types even have that advantage. I think you guys are really overestimating Moltres and really underestimating Ninetales. Moltres can put up a good fight but it really doesn't do anything to scare Ninetales away, either.

Either way Im just surprised that this thread is still open with the low quality and the errors found in the OP =\ Franky can you please update the OP with the changes suggested in this thread so that we can make some progress here.

Here, lets see how this goes (vs SubRoost stall Moltres, 40 SpA EVs and 252 HP EVs, and Air Slash and Flamethrower as attacking moves). This situation assuming Ninetails has Flamethrower, Substitute, Energy Ball, and Nasty Ploy @ Life Orb.

Note: the 40 SpA EVs dont matter at any point.

Ninetales uses Substitute
Moltres switches in

Ninetales uses Nasty Plot
Moltres uses Substitute

Ninetales uses Nasty Plot
Moltres uses Air Slash
Ninetales Sub fades

Ninetales uses Nasty Plot
Moltres uses Air Slash (35.54% - 42.16%)

Ninetales uses Flamethrower
Moltres uses Air Slash (35.54% - 42.16%) + (35.54% - 42.16%)
Ninetales has 28.92%-15.68% left
Moltres sub faded

Ninetales uses Flamethrower (67.19% - 79.17%)
Moltres uses Air Slash
Ninetales FAINTED
Moltres has 27.08%-39.03% left.


Note: Substitute isnt even on the usage stat chart, so dont even bring up "Air Slash isnt as common as Toxic". Every Ninetales without Substitute loses to ToxicStalling Moltres.


Hidden Power Rock is a must. Jrrrrr with all due respect, not everyone uses Ninetails anymore, considering Houndoom is available, its really not ALL theorymon. Considering you needed to "Theorymon" Substitute as a set to beat Toxic Moltres. Pick a side, do the usage charts mean its the best set? If so, then Substitute shouldnt be on the set, meaning Toxic Moltres still beats Ninetales. If you disagree with the usage charts, then Hidden Power Rock should go on the set for superior coverage. Either way, you are fighting uphill :(.

Even Pre-merge people used HP Rock to deal with other Ninetails, Altaria, Mantyke etc.

Ninetails main advantage over Houndoom is the coverage gained from Energy Ball, and completely sacrificing its perfect coverage for a 60% accuracy attack, or Substitute is definititely the wrong thing to do, especially with such a low SpA.

So again HP Rock in the fourth Slot (Hypnosis can be slashed, I guess. But Substitute should go to OO or SC).

HeYsUp said:

Here, lets see how this goes (vs SubRoost stall Moltres, 40 SpA EVs and 252 HP EVs, and Air Slash and Flamethrower as attacking moves). This situation assuming Ninetails has Flamethrower, Substitute, Energy Ball, and Nasty Ploy @ Life Orb.

Note: the 40 SpA EVs dont matter at any point.

Ninetales uses Substitute
Moltres switches in (ninetales = 75%, Moltres = 50%)

Ninetales uses Nasty Plot
Moltres uses Substitute (ninetales = 75%, Moltres = 31.25%)

Ninetales uses Nasty Plot
Moltres uses Air Slash
Ninetales Sub fades(ninetales = 75%, Moltres = 37.5%)

Ninetales uses Nasty Plot
Moltres uses Air Slash (35.54% - 42.16%)(ninetales = 40%, Moltres = 43.75%)

Ninetales uses Flamethrower
Moltres uses Air Slash (35.54% - 42.16%) + (35.54% - 42.16%)
Ninetales has 28.92%-15.68% left
Moltres sub faded (ninetales = 28.92%-15.68%, Moltres = 50%)

Ninetales uses Flamethrower (67.19% - 79.17%)
MOLTRES FAINTS before Ninetales

Moltres uses Air Slash
Ninetales FAINTED
Moltres has 27.08%-39.03% left.

Click to expand...

Thank you for illustrating exactly what I said. Ninetales beats Moltres in the situation you just described, every time, and it that is assuming Ninetales even uses Substitute and doesn't just use Hypnosis. It also assumes that Ninetales needs to get to +6 just to beat a Moltres at <35% HP when it could just go for a 2hko instead. If Ninetales just uses Hypnosis, Moltres is even more fucked. How is Moltres walling this set again? In the situation you just described, you lost Moltres and are now stuck facing a +6 Ninetales.

HeYsUp said:

Hidden Power Rock is a must. Jrrrrr with all due respect, not everyone uses Ninetails anymore, considering Houndoom is available, its really not ALL theorymon.

Click to expand...

I never said that HP Rock is a bad move on Ninetales. In fact, I even supported its addition to the set. I simply stated that only 10% of Ninetales users agree that HP Rock is worthwhile, whereas more than 50% of Ninetales users think that Hypnosis is worthwhile. The analyses are supposed to reflect common sets, and Hypnosis is almost 5 times as common as HP Rock so it should definitely be the "main" option. An overwhelming majority (9 out of 10) of Ninetales users do not think that HP Rock is their main option in that moveslot, so why should the analysis say that it is?

HeYsUp said:

Considering you needed to "Theorymon" Substitute as a set to beat Toxic Moltres. Pick a side, do the usage charts mean its the best set? If so, then Substitute shouldnt be on the set, meaning Toxic Moltres still beats Ninetales. If you disagree with the usage charts, then Hidden Power Rock should go on the set for superior coverage. Either way, you are fighting uphill :(.

Click to expand...

My theorymon example was to demonstrate how your type coverage argument was irrelevant when you consider what people actually use. Yeah HP Rock is great in theory, but people don't use it, so it doesn't deserve to be the main option. The analyses are supposed to reflect what sets people are actually using, not what sets look the best on paper.

HeYsUp said:

Even Pre-merge people used HP Rock to deal with other Ninetails, Altaria, Mantyke etc.

Click to expand...

I have already acknowledged that people use HP Rock. More people use Hypnosis and Dark Pulse. FFS more people even used HP Water than HP Rock.

HeYsUp said:

Ninetails main advantage over Houndoom is the coverage gained from Energy Ball, and completely sacrificing its perfect coverage for a 60% accuracy attack, or Substitute is definititely the wrong thing to do, especially with such a low SpA.

Click to expand...

Even though Substitute has clear advantages (destroys Flamethrower + Toxic Chansey), I was just mentioning it to show how worthless theorymon is when trying to make these sets. Other Options is there for a reason.

HeYsUp said:

So again HP Rock in the fourth Slot (Hypnosis can be slashed, I guess. But Substitute should go to OO or SC).

Click to expand...

No way. Hypnosis is what you will see on more than 50% of Ninetales. It deserves to be the main option because it is the most likely to be on a Ninetales set. What isn't clear about that? HP Rock deserves to be slashed next to it.

I agree that Substitute should just go in the set description or OO though, as it is worthwhile in some cases as I have shown against Moltres and some Chansey, but its uses are limited.

Edit: Will re-write the entire thing due to the posts above. Will get everything up soon which I initially saved in Microsoft Word and was deleted by my brother. I have been very busy btw. This was written long ago, I have a better version.

With the argument between HP Rock, I had it mentioned in the sets

and Rock allows you to hit both Altaria and Mantine and hit opposing Fire-types.

Click to expand...

The posts above me makes me want to put HP Rock in the main sets.

jrrrrrrr said:

Thank you for illustrating exactly what I said. Ninetales beats Moltres in the situation you just described, every time

Click to expand...

I hope you're kidding...lol. If you werent (which logically you wouldnt be because its C&C), why are you trying to desperately find a way to keep these two moves? Stealth Rock is very hard to keep on the field (if you dont take extra precautions, which many teams dont need to) with Hitmontop around, and it needs to be mentioned how important SR is in the Set comments like other analyses. (I know you'll hate this example) E.G. in the Blaziken analysis I have to mention "This set needs Stealth Rock kept on the feild, otherwise Pokemon X and Y can survive too easily". All that needs to be done is have HP Rock as the main option, and put Hypnosis in a slash and say "Walled by moltres if you opt for Hypnosis, so make sure you have Stealth Rock on the field".

jrrrrrrr said:

I never said that HP Rock is a bad move on Ninetales. In fact, I even supported its addition to the set. I simply stated that only 10% of Ninetales users agree that HP Rock is worthwhile, whereas more than 50% of Ninetales users think that Hypnosis is worthwhile. The analyses are supposed to reflect common sets, and Hypnosis is almost 5 times as common as HP Rock so it should definitely be the "main" option. An overwhelming majority (9 out of 10) of Ninetales users do not think that HP Rock is their main option in that moveslot, so why should the analysis say that it is?

My theorymon example was to demonstrate how your type coverage argument was irrelevant when you consider what people actually use. Yeah HP Rock is great in theory, but people don't use it, so it doesn't deserve to be the main option. The analyses are supposed to reflect what sets people are actually using, not what sets look the best on paper.

Click to expand...

Yet you're suggesting Substitute. It works both ways, if you think it should be 100% based on usage, then use terrible moves like Dark Pulse (well pretty terrible) slashed with Hypnosis. If not, HP Rock deserves a slot. Again, uphill battle my friend.

jrrrrrrr said:

I have already acknowledged that people use HP Rock. More people use Hypnosis and Dark Pulse. FFS more people even used HP Water than HP Rock.

Click to expand...

The attention of players is no longer on Ninetales tbh, Houndoom is almost always better (except for Speed, the only reason to use ninetales). Saying "only 10% of Ninetales users use HP Rock, so its bad.", is like saying "Empoleon (completely random and probably made up example) is only used 10% of the time, so its bad". This is where our knowledge of Pokemon comes in, and where we (in C&C) make the judgements based on experience of the metagame and Pokemon, and even logic.

jrrrrrrr said:

Even thoughSubstitute has clear advantages (destroys Flamethrower + Toxic Chansey), I was just mentioning it to show how worthless theorymon is when trying to make these sets. Other Options is there for a reason.

Click to expand...

@ bolded.....dude....

Thats grasping if I have ever seen it lol. NO one uses that set. Its terrible. Other options is exactly where Substitute belongs, for reference.

jrrrrrrr said:

No way. Hypnosis is what you will see on more than 50% of Ninetales. It deserves to be the main option because it is the most likely to be on a Ninetales set. What isn't clear about that? HP Rock deserves to be slashed next to it.

Click to expand...

I think we can use our discretion (as a community) and pick the more reliable (and obviously in many people's opinions, better) option (HP Rock) vs the more common option (HypnoMISS). This isnt a case of Fire Blast vs Flamethrower, because Fire Blast has a higher damage output over time, so dont bring that up ^_^.

jrrrrrrr said:

I agree that Substitute should just go in the set description or OO though, as it is worthwhile in some cases as I have shown against Moltres and some Chansey, but its uses are limited.

Click to expand...

Its not ever worthwhile (except for the basic "Sub blocks status" argument for every fast Pokemon). Ninetales is almost always better of Nasty Plotting, or even risking hypnosis than wasting a moveslot. OO at best. Not to mention your Chansey argument was quite pathetic :/

The analysis is used to show what moves are competitively most viable on a pokemon and naturally the slashes should reflect the order of those choices. What "dumb" players do isn't really of our concern.

HeYsUp said:

I hope you're kidding...lol. If you werent (which logically you wouldnt be because its C&C), why are you trying to desperately find a way to keep these two moves? Stealth Rock is very hard to keep on the field (if you dont take extra precautions, which many teams dont need to) with Hitmontop around, and it needs to be mentioned how important SR is in the Set comments like other analyses. (I know you'll hate this example) E.G. in the Blaziken analysis I have to mention "This set needs Stealth Rock kept on the feild, otherwise Pokemon X and Y can survive too easily". All that needs to be done is have HP Rock as the main option, and put Hypnosis in a slash and say "Walled by moltres if you opt for Hypnosis, so make sure you have Stealth Rock on the field".

Click to expand...

Ok, if Ninetales would greatly benefit from SR then I would agree that it should be mentioned in the analysis. You just theorymonned HP Rock out, so I was trying to illustrate how dumb applying theorymon is in these analyses.

HP Rock is not used competitively, so it does not deserve to be the main option. What is so hard to understand about that? 5 times as many people choose Hypnosis over HP Rock as their main option, why should the analysis not reflect that?

HeYsUp said:

Yet you're suggesting Substitute. It works both ways, if you think it should be 100% based on usage, then use terrible moves like Dark Pulse (well pretty terrible) slashed with Hypnosis. If not, HP Rock deserves a slot. Again, uphill battle my friend.

Click to expand...

Once again, I already told you that I don't think Substitute belongs anywhere else except for Other Options. I was using it to illustrate how theorymon should not be used when making analyses. I don't know what uphill battle you are talking about with HP Rock since usage statistics are clearly on my side.

HeYsUp said:

The attention of players is no longer on Ninetales tbh, Houndoom is almost always better (except for Speed, the only reason to use ninetales). Saying "only 10% of Ninetales users use HP Rock, so its bad.", is like saying "Empoleon (completely random and probably made up example) is only used 10% of the time, so its bad". This is where our knowledge of Pokemon comes in, and where we (in C&C) make the judgements based on experience of the metagame and Pokemon, and even logic.

Click to expand...

Ok, this is a Ninetales analysis, not a Houndoom analysis. I know that there is a difference between the two. I also never said that HP Rock is bad.

Let me explain this for you, even more clearly:
1) The analysis of Ninetales is supposed to reflect and describe movesets that are actually used by Ninetales
2) 5 times as many people use Hypnosis compared to HP Rock
3) Hypnosis is actually used on a majority of Ninetales sets
4) Hypnosis should be the main option.

Its not like we're talking about HP Rock getting even 25% of usage here. 9 out of 10 Ninetales users don't agree that HP Rock was worthwhile. No matter how good you THINK the move is, people don't use it. End of story.

HeYsUp said:

Thats grasping if I have ever seen it lol. NO one uses that set. Its terrible. Other options is exactly where Substitute belongs, for reference.

Click to expand...

I completely agree. NOBODY USES THAT SET. So what were you saying about adding HP Rock over Hypnosis again?

HeYsUp said:

I think we can use our discretion (as a community) and pick the more reliable (and obviously in many people's opinions, better) option (HP Rock) vs the more common option (HypnoMISS). This isnt a case of Fire Blast vs Flamethrower, because Fire Blast has a higher damage output over time, so dont bring that up ^_^.

Click to expand...

Your opinion on a move does not matter. You are not the patron saint of pokemon. Nobody cares what one person thinks of Hypnosis, because >50% of battlers use Hypnosis on any Ninetales set. The overwhelming majority of Ninetales users disagree with you, so why should we accept the opinion of one player when making the analysis. Weren't you just trying to advocate using the discretion of the "community"? It's not like I'm proposing some radical change here, I'm just advocating using the community's usage statistics to illustrate what should be on the set.

Obviously, in many peoples opinions, Hypnosis is better since it is used 5 times as often. If what you were saying is true, more people would actually use HP Rock over Hypnosis. IF there is ever a time where HP Rock gains more usage than Hypnosis, I will agree with making it the main option. However, common sense dictates that we use in the analysis what people actually use in battle. I really can't understand why you are arguing this. HP Rock is not a common move, period. Analyses reflect the common move choices made by players. HP Rock is a deserving option and should be in the comments or as a slash next to Hypnosis, but clearly most people think Hypnosis is a better option. You're right about one thing, this is nothing like Flamethrower vs Fire Blast, in this case Hypnosis is actually used and HP Rock isnt.

The first moveset should be NP/ Energy Ball / 1)Flamethrower or 2) Fire Blast / 1) Hypnosis or 2) HP Rock

Originally Posted by diinbong
Leftovers and Flamethrower are very nonsensical, as Ninetales should be going as offensive as it can to make up for its average Special Attack.

Click to expand...

Come on guys.... there is something seirously wrong with this mentality. Yes, Ninetales doesn't have the brute offensive strength but as a community there are some people who like to play conservatively. Leftovers doesn't have as much merit since there is considerably less weather in UU, which is a major point for using Leftovers over Life Orb on EVERY sweeper and it not being foolish. Flamethrower being a nonsensical option on any Fire type pokemon is an absolutely nonsensical statement, as it is the most powerful 100% accurate move of the type (if you think 95 base power is weak, you need help). I thought it was general consensus to always slash Fire Blast / Flamethrower and Hydro Pump / Surf for that reason alone. You may like the extra power, but for consistency and common sense you certainly can't go wrong with Flamethrower or Surf on any Water or Fire Pokemon in any situation.

With that being said, Choice Specs needs a lot of work:

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast
move 2: Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Flamethrower / Hypnosis
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed

Okay, I bolded what should probably be changed on the set. I'm going by Jumpmans analogy of how to use Choice Pokemon, using the model of Specsmence, as many Choiced sets on these analysis are getting away from this. So let me explain:

So with a Choice Pokemon, your going to want to be hitting and running since thats the whole damn point of a Choice Pokemon, especially a Flash Fire one like Ninetales. There shouldn't be crazy amounts of prediction. Fire is resisted by Water, Fire, Dragon, and Rock... So Energy Ball removes two from that list and HP Rock removes the only UU Dragon along with other Fire Pokemon. So when you play this its a simple, "how many fire resists are left? I either go with Fire Move, or other move." That is why I changed the order of the moves; Fire + Rock has slightly better neutral coverage than Fire + Grass just to follow the format of an analysis. So in looking at other moves, Dark Pulse accomplishes absolutely nothing, as does Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric. Extrasensory only helps for Hariyama and again that is crazy unnecessary prediction. As for the Fire attacks, Overheat for the big hit, Flamethrower for cleaning, its just that simple. You really don't need Fire Blast because it is a bad compromise of the two (if your sweeping with a choice pokemon you want 100% accuracy, or the shear power and FB is still less accurate and powerful than Overheat). You can argue about Heatran using Fireblast and why shouldn't Ninetales, but that comes down to to moveslot syndrome, as Heatran gets the trump card in Explosion. With that being said, if you do opt for Fire Blast, you would probably be better off with Hypnosis as the fourth option just to completely shut down the counter so you can Fire Blast freely for the rest of the match. Make sense?

jrrrrrrr said:

Ok, if Ninetales would greatly benefit from SR then I would agree that it should be mentioned in the analysis. You just theorymonned HP Rock out, so I was trying to illustrate how dumb applying theorymon is in these analyses.

Click to expand...

Its not theorymon for the last time. I use HP Rock, im having a hard time believing that you even use ninetales (making your theorymon argument work severely against you at that :/).

jrrrrrrr said:

HP Rock is not used competitively, so it does not deserve to be the main option. What is so hard to understand about that? 5 times as many people choose Hypnosis over HP Rock as their main option, why should the analysis not reflect that?

Click to expand...

Again just because more people use it does not mean its better. Please just test the two out?

jrrrrrrr said:

Once again, I already told you that I don't think Substitute belongs anywhere else except for Other Options. I was using it to illustrate how theorymon should not be used when making analyses. I don't know what uphill battle you are talking about with HP Rock since usage statistics are clearly on my side.

Click to expand...

What people like to use does not matter in this case because firstly, ninetales is not very common at all, I have not seen a recognizable player use it at all. Hidden Power Rock, from my experence, is better than Hypnosis. The uphill battle was with Substitute, but it still applies now because you are arguing that people who use Dark Pulse (...) know better than the people in C&C arguing for HP rock (im not the only one).

jrrrrrrr said:

Ok, this is a Ninetales analysis, not a Houndoom analysis. I know that there is a difference between the two. I also never said that HP Rock is bad.

Click to expand...

Good, now your right about something.

jrrrrrrr said:

Let me explain this for you, even more clearly:
1) The analysis of Ninetales is supposed to reflect and describe movesets that are actually used by Ninetales
2) 5 times as many people use Hypnosis compared to HP Rock
3) Hypnosis is actually used on a majority of Ninetales sets
4) Hypnosis should be the main option.

Its not like we're talking about HP Rock getting even 25% of usage here. 9 out of 10 Ninetales users don't agree that HP Rock was worthwhile. No matter how good you THINK the move is, people don't use it. End of story.

Click to expand...

HP rock is the better, not to mention the more reliable option. From my personal experience, where as yours is based of the usage stats.

jrrrrrrr said:

I completely agree. NOBODY USES THAT SET. So what were you saying about adding HP Rock over Hypnosis again?

Click to expand...

No one uses it because its terrible, completely different scenario.

I was just pointing out that by using that example you just admitted to not playing UU enough or having enough experience in it. You assumed FT+Toxic Chansey was good just because Blissey can use it. What does that tell you?

jrrrrrrr said:

Your opinion on a move does not matter. You are not the patron saint of pokemon. Nobody cares what one person thinks of Hypnosis, because >50% of battlers use Hypnosis on any Ninetales set. The overwhelming majority of Ninetales users disagree with you, so why should we accept the opinion of one player when making the analysis. Weren't you just trying to advocate using the discretion of the "community"? It's not like I'm proposing some radical change here, I'm just advocating using the community's usage statistics to illustrate what should be on the set.

Click to expand...

More people on this thread agree with me, just because People use a move more does not make it better. For example, pre-abomasnow banning, Blizzard was more popular than Ice Beam. So thats like saying we should give all Pokemon who learn Blizzard, that over Ice Beam. Usage stats are for reference, they are not rules set in stone. Again please actually use Ninetales w/ Hypnosis, then HP rock and hopefully you will see the consequences of relying on 60% accuracy with horribly frail defenses and no Focus Sash.

jrrrrrrr said:

Obviously, in many peoples opinions, Hypnosis is better since it is used 5 times as often. If what you were saying is true, more people would actually use HP Rock over Hypnosis. IF there is ever a time where HP Rock gains more usage than Hypnosis, I will agree with making it the main option. However, common sense dictates that we use in the analysis what people actually use in battle. I really can't understand why you are arguing this. HP Rock is not a common move, period. Analyses reflect the common move choices made by players. HP Rock is a deserving option and should be in the comments or as a slash next to Hypnosis, but clearly most people think Hypnosis is a better option. You're right about one thing, this is nothing like Flamethrower vs Fire Blast, in this case Hypnosis is actually used and HP Rock isnt.

Click to expand...

Again, usage stats are not law, and I was refering to people who are posting in this thread. Because a move is uncommon, does that mean its bad? No. In a perfect situation, where everyone was great / amazing and the like (well no one would use ninetales..but whatever), thats maybe when you can use Usage stats set in stone. For a Pokemon that is 90% outclassed by Houndoom, you have to wonder if these people even used ninetales for competitive reasons, or for flavour?

jrrrrrrr said:

The first moveset should be NP/ Energy Ball / 1)Flamethrower or 2) Fire Blast / 1) Hypnosis or 2) HP Rock

Click to expand...

I'd put Fire Blast > FF, and HP Rock > Hypnosis. Oh but then I would be breaking the holy laws of the usage stats! How I would be sinning :(

husk said:

The analysis is used to show what moves are competitively most viable on a pokemon and naturally the slashes should reflect the order of those choices.

Click to expand...

Exactly what im saying, thank you. Jrrrr this is what im trying to say, but in a sentance.

Ok it has become obvious that you just argue for the sake of arguing, no matter how wrong you are.

HeYsUp said:

Its not theorymon for the last time. I use HP Rock, im having a hard time believing that you even use ninetales (making your theorymon argument work severely against you at that :/).

Click to expand...

YOU use hp rock. MOST PEOPLE use Hypnosis. The analysis is not a personal opinion section for the pokemon, it reflects what MOST PEOPLE use.

HeYsUp said:

Again just because more people use it does not mean its better. Please just test the two out?

Click to expand...

Once again, I already said that HP Rock has merits. However, since more people use Hypnosis, it should be the main option. If I wanted to use Ninetales or if I was facing one, what do you think would be more useful: what 55% of people use or what 12% of people use? Can you use some common sense, please?

HeYsUp said:

What people like to use does not matter in this case because firstly, ninetales is not very common at all, I have not seen a recognizable player use it at all. Hidden Power Rock, from my experence, is better than Hypnosis. The uphill battle was with Substitute, but it still applies now because you are arguing that people who use Dark Pulse (...) know better than the people in C&C arguing for HP rock (im not the only one).

Click to expand...

What does Ninetales' usage have to do with what moves people use on it? From YOUR experience, HP Rock is good. From EVERYBODY ELSES experience, Hypnosis is more worthwhile. I can't believe you cant understand this.

HeYsUp said:

HP rock is the better, not to mention the more reliable option. From my personal experience, where as yours is based of the usage stats.

Click to expand...

Well, take that up with the 90% of people that DONT use HP Rock. My argument based off of real usage statistics is far superior to your argument which uses what just you *think* is more reliable. Obviously, 90% of Ninetales users disagree with you.

HeYsUp said:

No one uses it because its terrible, completely different scenario.

Click to expand...

If Hypnosis is terrible, and 5 times as many people use Hypnosis than the move you are suggesting, what does that say about the move youre suggesting?

HeYsUp said:

More people on this thread agree with me, just because People use a move more does not make it better. For example, pre-abomasnow banning, Blizzard was more popular than Ice Beam. So thats like saying we should give all Pokemon who learn Blizzard, that over Ice Beam. Usage stats are for reference, they are not rules set in stone. Again please actually use Ninetales w/ Hypnosis, then HP rock and hopefully you will see the consequences of relying on 60% accuracy with horribly frail defenses and no Focus Sash.

Click to expand...

Once again, it doesnt matter what one or two people think in this thread. The analysis is supposed to demonstrate what people use. People don't use HP Rock. People use Hypnosis. Do you really not get this?

How is 100 base SpDef "frail"? Ninetales is also faster than almost everything in UU, it would more than likely get 2 chances to hit with Hypnosis, giving it at least one free Nasty Plot in the process.

HeYsUp said:

Again, usage stats are not law, and I was refering to people who are posting in this thread. Because a move is uncommon, does that mean its bad? No. In a perfect situation, where everyone was great / amazing and the like (well no one would use ninetales..but whatever), thats maybe when you can use Usage stats set in stone. For a Pokemon that is 90% outclassed by Houndoom, you have to wonder if these people even used ninetales for competitive reasons, or for flavour?

Click to expand...

I never said that HP Rock is bad. I am saying that Hypnosis is better, and a majority of people who use Ninetales agree with me and not you. On top of that, you keep bringing up Houndoom...why wouldn't you want to use Hypnosis to differentiate yourself from it? Your reasoning fails on all counts.

HeYsUp said:

I'd put Fire Blast > FF, and HP Rock > Hypnosis. Oh but then I would be breaking the holy laws of the usage stats! How I would be sinning :(

Click to expand...

You wouldnt be sinning, you would be suggesting an inferior moveset that does not reflect what a majority of people use.

HeYsUp said:

Exactly what im saying, thank you. Jrrrr this is what im trying to say, but in a sentance.

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Are you joking? You have GOT to be joking. If HP Rock was competitive, more than 15% of users would use it. We aren't talking a difference like "HP rock is 40% and hypnosis is only 50%". You could face 100 Ninetales and on average, only 11 of them would have HP Rock, while 52 of them would have Hypnosis. A HUGE majority of people think that Hypnosis is more competitively viable than HP Rock. If they didn't, they would use HP Rock over Hypnosis! Do you really not get this?

The analysis is supposed to show what people use competitively. 52% of people use Hypnosis competitively. 11% of people use HP Rock competitively. What should the main option be?

OK, I'm going to put a stop to this childish bickering. Unfortunately, I deleted the PM franky sent me with his updated version so, I'm going to ask that people don't post a whole lot until he adds it (I could lock it and then have him PM me again but whatever, I'll see if more people reply and ignore me to determine if I'll lock it again).

Actually, the analysis is suppose to show what is most effective. The majority of beginner / average players rely on our analysis to construct their move sets so I'm not quite sure if it is entirely permissible to argue that the statistics should drive the analysis when I'd argue that our analysis drive the statistics. Statistics are a resource, but they aren't an end-all thing

Anyway, what the hell are you guys arguing about? Just slash it, if we are arguing this seriously about the order of slashes that's just absurd.

Caelum its not like we're talking about good players using HP Rock and bad players using Hypnosis. NOBODY used HP Rock. If Ninetales moves were put into tiers, HP Rock would be NU. I said that HP Rock is worthy of being there simply for type coverage, I just find it ridiculous that people could sit here and say that something that is used on 1/2 of all ninetales sets is not a worthy competitive option.

Obviously, Ninetales users think that Hypnosis is more effective. I never said that stats should be the sole driving force behind putting things there, its just that the stats are so overwhelmingly tilted against HP Rock that you can't really ignore them. HP Rock looks good on paper, but for some reason that nobody is caring to explain, it is not used competitively.