np: UU - Here It Goes Again

[Caelum]

Similar to last time, I took the bold nominations for suspects that garnered a minimum of 10% and determined these as our suspects. Our UU suspects this time around around

Suspects
1 - Crobat (again??)
2 - Shaymin
3 - Honchkrow

This will now serve as a discussion thread for anything regarding UU experiences post-suspect removal. I'll unlock this thread (of someone else can) when Doug gets around to removing these guys from the ladder. Just for reference the plan is

The Plan
1. Suspect will be removed from the UU ladder to experience a different metagame.
2. After approximately a month of this metagame a process of voting with begin and using your experiences prior to the removal of the suspects and during, you will judge whether or not you believe any of the Pokemon can reasonably function in UU. It's important to remember, any decision made in voting now will not be set-in-stone and can be reexamined in the future.
3. The intended goal, in order to earn voting rights, is to obtain a rating 1600 or greater coupled with a deviation of 55 or less by the end of a one month testing period.
4. The result of the vote will determine whether a Suspect is identified as BL and if not it will be reintroduced to the UU ladder.
5. Finally, the process will begin again to determine if there are still any remaining suspects to be had in the revised UU ladder.

I want to address something quickly regarding Shaymin and Crobat. Crobat is considered a decent check to Shaymin due to higher speed and 4x resistance to Seed Flare. Naturally, I understand, that there could be a problem with voting when we remove both simutaneously. Normally, I would try to devise some mechanism that requires "special care"; but in this case I do not. Crobat, last round, was removed last round while Shaymin was not. So, you do have experiences with both a UU metagame with Shaymin where Crobat did and did not exist. This should be enough background for you to adequately determine said status of Shaymin.

Also, to give you a slight glimpse into the future. The UU testing method is slightly less rigorous than the OU suspect testing. This was necessary due to the fact that it lacks any sort of practicality to test UU in the same manner as OU, unless you want to wait years before you have a decent UU tier (do you ??). After this round, hopefully, we can begin to examine the previous votes results a la a modified Stage 3. In this stage we will make greater use of Jump's Suspect Experience Formula since these cases will be ones that are significant less obvious, so we want to get it right!


(PS: Here It Goes Again is not a good song, but the title seemed appropriate =p)

[RBG]

Ok, the ladder is up again! The suspects have been banned. However, instead of resetting the ratings, only your deviations have been reset on a scale. This is so you can keep your rankings, but so you all have to play to reach the right deviation.

Have Fun!

[SoulRed12]

Okay, so I won't run into any crobat or shaymin on the UU ladder anymore?

[MegaKick]

tested with some freinds before the reset...anyway, swellow is doing great with no crobat and honchkrow sucker punch, but misses the free u-turn on shaymin. Blaziken to, especielly since he can use the old spread for more power since he doesn't have to outspeed honchkrow

[Heysup]

I don't exactly understand what was done to our ratings, my CRE went down a lot, but my rating numbers are still like 1750 - 1950. Well I ended up #1, so no complaints :)

Espeon and Roserade have both been wrecking quite a bit, though it appears without Shaymin, Azumarill could be an issue.

[Erazor]

Originally Posted by Fat HeYsUp

I don't exactly understand what was done to our ratings, my CRE went down a lot, but my rating numbers are still like 1750 - 1950.

Thats because your deviation went way up. CRE depends on deviation, so...

On the ladder itself - sweet, I have to play soon! It looks like Ambipom's time has come once more...

[locopoke]

Originally Posted by Fat Ubers are awesome

tested with some freinds before the reset...anyway, swellow is doing great with no crobat and honchkrow sucker punch, but misses the free u-turn on shaymin. Blaziken to, especielly since he can use the old spread for more power since he doesn't have to outspeed honchkrow

Crobat and Honchkrow may be gone but Steel types still completely wall Swellow to no end so Swellow isn't that much better really.

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Just out of curiosity, why isn't Moltres banned? It got 3 noms, and there were 31 in total. It's not exactly 10% (but it said there would be a slight + - consideration in the previous vote), so is that why?

[Aerouille]

I am seeing a lot of Rain Dance teams tonight. I wonder if Shaymin and Crobat kept them in check that badly or if they are just emboldened for some other reason, it's not like RD teams were something aside from extremely good even with those two around.

I don't anticipate Azumarill to be much of a problem, even when Shaymin was around he was never eager to switch into an ice punch~

[hsb39]

Originally Posted by Fat Aerouille

I am seeing a lot of Rain Dance teams tonight. I wonder if Shaymin and Crobat kept them in check that badly or if they are just emboldened for some other reason, it's not like RD teams were something aside from extremely good even with those two around.

I don't anticipate Azumarill to be much of a problem, even when Shaymin was around he was never eager to switch into an ice punch~

Main explanation that I can think of off the top of my head is that Crobat Taunts Rain Dance leads.

[Aerouille]

Originally Posted by Fat hsb39

Main explanation that I can think of off the top of my head is that Crobat Taunts Rain Dance leads.

RD teams lead with Electrode, he outspeeds. Crobat can however taunt additional rain dancers on the team.

[Heysup]

Honchkrow was actually a nice check for Rain Dance teams, because of its terribly powerful Sucker Punch vs more frail Rain Dance sweepers.

[Giant Enemy Crab]

At the time of writing, I'm currently #4.

I've seen a rise in Offense teams, presumably because of Crobat being gone. I think i've seen a spike in Fighting types too, but I'm not too sure.

[Altair]

#11 and rising!

Anyways, I'm definitely liking this new metagame. No Shaymin means that Regirock and bulky waters can have a field day and Moltres is ripping shit apart. Also I'm finding that Blaziken+Moltres is a decent combo.

[Haunter]

Originally Posted by Fat Giant Enemy Crab

I've seen a rise in Offense teams, presumably because of Crobat being gone. I think i've seen a spike in Fighting types too, but I'm not too sure.

Indeed I've seen a lot of stall teams, Crobat, Shaymin and Honchkrow were three excellent stall breakers; now that they're gone, stall is a lot harder to beat, though mix-Blaziken is still doing its job nicely.

I miss Crobat a lot!

[Overhazard]

To be honest, with Shaymin out of the picture I don't mind Crobat's departure to much. Also my mono-Fighting team only really had problems with Shaymin and Crobat, Honchkrow is just a plus.

Edit:

Unusual amount of Feraligator leads...

[Blue_Tornado]

lol, I didn't use Crobat even once - I have never used the purple bat. I'm happy that he's gone for now, since he gave me trouble against most of my teams. Let the testing commence! (or something cheezy like that)

[tubbablubba]

All 3 of the pokes I despise on the UU ladder are all gone. This is like a christmas present or something. This month is going to be amazing. I'm working right now on team adjustments. So happy :)

[Peachfuzz]

Instantly a huge increase in the variety of leads. It's not even just Ambipom and Roserade that I expected to be everywhere. The new leads are a breath of fresh air after seeing Crobat and Crobat counters as leads for a month.

Even though stall got huge boosts in the removal of Honchkrow and Crobat, offensive teams are being used often. I do miss Honchkrow though. It's ability to punch holes in many teams defenses is like Salamence in OU.

[LonelyNess]

I think Stall took a larger hit than you people are realizing. Without Crobat, name something that has the speed + power + survivability to bring down Blaziken? Hint: you can't. Name something that can take down a Nasty Plot Toxicroak with HP Fighting / Icy Wind / Shadow Ball ? Hint: you can't. Stall took a huge hit because now it no longer has any kind of speed behind it. Sure now we don't have a fast taunt to keep the likes of Roserade from stacking spikes, but we got rid of the only form of speed and power that a stall team possessed.

If anything stall is EASIER to break now, not harder.

[franky]

I finally have a chance to let loose with my Fighting-types and use Roserade as an offensive player rather than a lead. Now Crobat is gone, its much easier and Roserade w/ Synthesis is great when you want to deal with these pesky Bulky-waters after Shaymin was gone.

[Blazebat]

I know this sounds stupid but I have had much more trouble without the suspects even though I did not use them. I found that my teams were so specialized to make sure that Shaymin, Crobat, and by extension Honchkrow, were not a threat that the new diversity of the UU tier has caught me flat footed. I have even found more trouble in using pokemon that were checked by the suspects. In particular my standard SubCM Missy has been noting but dead weight since the removal of the suspects.

[d2m]

Originally Posted by Fat Blazebat

I know this sounds stupid but I have had much more trouble without the suspects even though I did not use them. I found that my teams were so specialized to make sure that Shaymin, Crobat, and by extension Honchkrow, were not a threat that the new diversity of the UU tier has caught me flat footed. I have even found more trouble in using pokemon that were checked by the suspects. In particular my standard SubCM Missy has been noting but dead weight since the removal of the suspects.

SubCM missy can setup on Stallrein (Sub prevents Toxic, 1-2 CMs makes Blizzard not break it), which is in every freaking team I've seen so far. Hail is coming back, good thing my team has the #1 hail counter :)

Something I've noticed, though, is that Milotic doesn't seem to be as popular, which is very, very odd considering that Shaymin was the only thing that really countered it.

[Aerouille]

I was going to point out how false Haunter's comment is but LonelyNess beat me to the punch, ah well.
And on top of Crobat, I guess Haunter has never had matches extend an extra 50 turns because of sub seed shaymin, heh.

Until Blazikens start running HP:Ice Altaria will remain a good counter to them, and that's just one of a few.

[WJC3688]

SubCM missy can setup on Stallrein (Sub prevents Toxic, 1-2 CMs makes Blizzard not break it), which is in every freaking team I've seen so far. Hail is coming back, good thing my team has the #1 hail counter :)

Something I've noticed, though, is that Milotic doesn't seem to be as popular, which is very, very odd considering that Shaymin was the only thing that really countered it.

Odd, because I've seen zero hail teams and tons of Milotic. And with its #1 counter gone it has been a huge pest, being very difficult to take down with anything. I'm thinking about running Leaf Storm Roserade because of it.

The lead game hasn't improved that much, every lead is just Trick Scarf Uxie or Ambipom who are both atleast as annoying as Crobat was, if not moreso, with the occasional weather lead or Moltres thrown in.