Policy Review Policy Review - CAP Analyses

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Stellar

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If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. The posting rules for Policy Review threads are contained here.
Doug thought it would be a good idea to bring these issues up, so here we go.

CAP will soon be embarking on a mission to revamp the analyses for previous CAP Pokemon, namely those from Syclant up to Stratagem. However, a problem presents itself.

Do we mention other CAP Pokemon in an analysis?

If we mention other CAP Pokemon, we will be making the analyses for the 'CAP' ladder. If we do not, the analysis will be focused on the 'playtesting' ladder which lasts for a much shorter period of time. But are these analyses meant to focus on the Pokemon in the 'standard' OU environment or the CAP metagame? It should also be mentioned that if we decide to focus analyses on the CAP metagame, each analysis will need revision following the creation of a new CAP. There is no precedent for this, as each analysis tends to vary.

  • Syclant DOES NOT reference other CAP Pokemon.
  • Revenankh DOES reference other CAP Pokemon.
  • Pyroak DOES NOT reference other CAP Pokemon.
  • Fidgit DOES reference other CAP Pokemon.
  • Stratagem DOES NOT reference other CAP Pokemon.
  • Arghonaut DOES NOT reference other CAP Pokemon.
  • Kitsunoh DOES NOT reference other CAP Pokemon.
  • Cyclohm DOES NOT reference other CAP Pokemon.

When should the analysis be written?

As any C&C diehard would tell you, playtesting experience is the basis for any good analysis. However, based on the current analyses, this 'golden rule' was ignored. The analyses were written prior to extensive playtesting and man, does it show. Things like Air Cutter Stratagem, which might I add, isn't even in its final movepool, are present when it is obvious they shouldn't be. But people need a basis to work from when using the new CAP during the playtesting period. Last night, Doug brought up an excellent idea. It is as follows:

Write a rudimentary analysis based on theorymon to be published at the beginning of the playtesting period. This would give people some idea of how to use the CAP. As playtesting continues, people will see what works and what doesn't and address their Pokemon accordingly. At the end of playtesting, those who participated will be asked to participate in the writing of a more 'in-depth' analysis based on actual playtesting experience. This was largely the case with Cyclohm. Magmortified wrote an analysis based on theorymon which people used as a starting point. Afterwards, an organized attempt at writing a complete analysis was made. This seemed to work well. So, I'm going to push for such an idea in the future.

Quality of CAP Analyses

I would like to hope that in a project with so many dedicated C&C contributors that quality would not be an issue with CAP analyses. Once again, this isn't the case. This is probably due mainly to the the fact that most of the analysis were written prior to extensive playtesting.

I'll give a few examples of what is wrong with the current analyses.

[SET]
name: Rest + Sleep Talk
move 1: Lava Plume
move 2: Grass Knot / Leech Seed
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Battle Armor
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 32 SpD / 88 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Pyroak can serve as a decent status absorber if need be. Lava Plume again provedes a reasonable chance of Burn while Grass Knot covers Bulky Waters and Grounds. Rest and Sleep Talk are the bread and butter of the set allowing Pyroak to absorb Status and hopefully inflict them off in his sleep.
The comments in this particular Pyroak set would not be considered adequate by any C&C standard. Defensive sets like this should include damage calculations against common enemies. It also doesn't help that the EVs are not explained in either this set's comments or in the EVs section.

[SET]
name: Sub CM
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Paleo Wave / Weather Ball
move 4: Earth Power / Flamethrower
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
ability: Levitate
evs: 64 HP / 96 SpA / 96 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
This set plays much like Sub/CM Raikou, except with much better speed and special attack, in exchange for less durability. This set is best used in Sandstorm, because <Rockmon> will become a very fast special tank with all the boosts.
Let's slow down for a minute. In a supposedly finished analyses, we are still referring to the CAP as <Rockmon>? This screams 'written WAY before the CAP process was finished'. I think this is actually pretty embarrassing.

[SET]
name: LO Attacker (Technician)
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Ancientpower
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Fire Blast / Vacuum Wave / Air Cutter
item: Life Orb
ability: Technician
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Not to mention the fact that Air Cutter isn't even in Stratagem's movepool.

As you can see from the above examples, past analyses aren't really 'great'. They need a lot of work. Although I'll be running a project to revamp them, I'm mainly bringing this up so that quality will be stressed in future analysis endeavors. Obviously, Team Options will be added to older analyses.

The Future: A CAP Analysis Process Guide

In the next few weeks, I plan to work with some of the CAP 'bigshots' to write an in-depth guide for writing a CAP analysis. Things to mention would include:

  • When to write 'briefer' analysis.
  • What to include in the 'briefer' analysis.
  • When to write the final analysis.
  • Quality expectations with examples as to what 'to do and not to do'.
  • How to write each of the sections without skimping on the details.

As CAP is a community project, I would love to hear from some of the community members as to what they think should be included in such a guide. All comments would be greatly appreciated!
 
I think that what you have proposed is a great idea, since a lot of the CAP Analyses look pretty strange to me.

You pretty much covered what to write and what to cover in the "rudimentary" analysis. It should pretty much be based off of theorymon. As playtesting progresses, people can comment on what works and what doesn't. The best sets and EV Spreads can be placed on the final analysis, which is then posted in the CAP Info.

As for quality expectations, I think that describing how each individual move(including those with slashes) do to benefit the moveset, and help the CAP perform whatever job its been assigned to do. Afterwards, describe other options for EVs or items for the set if applicable (i.e. Life Orb or Leftovers on DD Gyara?) Then, describe how this set performs a significant role in a team, what kind of team(bulky offense/stall/offense) it should be used on, and what Pokemon pair well with the CAP and its moveset.
 

tennisace

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I don't think the rudimentary analysis should be more than a couple skeleton sets; why should I bother doing an analysis twice when I can just include sets that seem to work the best during playtesting, and use the playtesting thread as a "rudimentary analysis". Do it once, and do it right imo. The full analysis should be consistant with the rest of Smogon analyses.

As for the "do we include CAP Pokemon in the analyses" issue, we need to figure out what metagame we're building Pokemon for first. If we're making Pokemon for the extended CAP metagame, we need to revamp the analyses constantly, because the metagame will wildly shift. This is how CAP is most of the time. However if we're making them for the "Playtest" metagame, there's no point in making analyses of these Pokemon if the metagame exists for a specific amount of time, then disappears forever. Heck we don't even have to keep the Pokemon after we playtest them.
 
Yeah, I'm with tennisace in that the preliminary analysis should be just a couple of possible sets with few or no comments.

One thing I'd like to mention is some of the EV spreads suggested. I'm sure they're more or less fine, but I really think they could be more consistent with the Smogon analyses.

What I'm talking about:

Arghonaut said:
[EVs]

<p>36 Atk / 220 Def Adamant is recommended because it will get you an extra point in Attack compared to using 120 Atk / 136 Def Impish. </p>
I have never understood this. What makes that one attack point so important that a generally defensive Pokemon is willing to lower its Defense stat from a possible 317 down to a measly 281? I wouldn't have noticed this, except that the Swampert analysis only recommends a +Attack nature on the Choice Band set.

I brought this up on the server yesterday, and a few people argued that the extra Attack was necessary. But when you consider that so many players use Arghonaut on stall teams, and a surprising number of Stall teams depend on Arghonaut to survive a Salamence, Impish really sounds more appealing.

Excuse my semi-offtopic rant, if you will. As I said yesterday, I'd be glad to help out with the analysis revamps.
 

Plus

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As I said before, I'm looking forward to this, and I think these analyses really need some working to do. I really don't like the sets that much and I'd much rather make my own sets and work off of that as opposed to some of the sets in the analysis, mainly because they actually work in the metagame, and the majority of sets are pure theorymon. CAP 8 Analysis, however, went great and I think that we can set a bar for this kind of stuff as opposed to some of the terrible variations of common sets in the analysis.
 
I'm by no means an expert on writing in any way, but I'd like to sort a few things out:

Analysis should start as soon as the necessary information regarding the pokemon is completed (This means movepool). Most Stat Spreads have calculations pre-prepared, and a good idea is apparent from a mile away (anything with 100+ Atk or Spec Atk will have a choice item set, no matter what). Dubious sets probably should be left until they can be tested. If they are convoluded, then they can wait until we can be certain they can work.

Briefer anaylsis should be once movepool is completed, and should contain initial obvious sets.

Analysis should be based on the CAP metagame. Until the playtest period is over, we are theorymoning how it will do against other CAPs, but remember that playtest lasts only two weeks. At all other times that CAP will be tested against other CAPs, plus, since the analyses are to educate how a new pokemon is used, they likely won't be needed for the playtest period because no one knows how the pokemon will be used correctly at that time.

Final analysis should be all but done by the time playtest is over, but final comments regarding how well it does against other CAPs should be added (maybe within 3-5 days of the end of playtest?).
 
I agree with Billymills here. Most of the time, CAP Pokémon will be used against other CAPs. If the analysis is written without taking into account other CAPs, it would be useful only during the playtesting period. But this is a non-sense, because we write these analysis after the playtesting period, so people would not have any chance to use the analysis for the metagame it was tailored for. And if this will require a revamp after every CAP, I'm still all for this, and willing to help with the analysis of the sets I tested so far.
 
This has never been the case in the past. All analyses were written way before the playtesting period ended. (or without playtesting in the cases of the first few CAP)

e.g.

Kitsunoh Analysis was finalized: March 14, 2009
Kitsunoh Playtesting Ended: March 31, 2009

edit: I realize that your entire post has tense issues so you might be bringing this up as a suggestion. I can't really tell. Your current post looks like you are saying this is how CAP has been.
Well, I admit it was quite unclear. Yes, I know analyses were done before playtesting in the past. What I want to say is that, if we do analyses in the future after playtesting - like all of us seem to want -, then it would be absurd if we do not take into account the CAP metagame. Heck I remembered, when we did that "Metagame Analysis" thing with sbc that I suggested even to mention OU Pokémon which use different moves in CAP (the most common case being Zen Headbutt Metagross)

Hope it is clearer now.
 
Honestly, once we revamp them now, I doubt they'll need constant updates. For the most part, minor additions should be fine. For example, after Arghonaut is completed, the Syclant analysis might need some work, but the Pyroak analysis would need very little. Then there are times when we really wouldn't need to do anything at all, like updating the Pyroak analysis for Cyclohm. Considering Pyroak and Cyclohm can't do diddly to each other, the Pyroak analysis wouldn't need any updates.
 

Stellar

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is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Well I think I've come up with a solution to one of the problems: how to handle other CAPs in the analyses.

We have playtesting (meaning dealing with the CAP in isolation) centered analyses but we add a [CAP Metagame] section that deals with how the Pokemon plays in the CAP metagame. That way, we only have to update that section in each analysis when a CAP is created that works well in tandem with the CAP / counters the CAP / etc.


<Stellar> what do you think about playtesting centered analyses
<tennisace> oh yeah that little issue
<Stellar> but the addition of a CAP Metagame section
<Stellar> to the analyses
<tennisace> i actually like that idea
<Stellar> that way we would only have to update those sections
<elevator_music> ehhh I mean its a metagame thats only around for like 1-2 weeks that we'll never see again
<DougJustCoding> I like that Stellar.
<Stellar> ok
<tennisace> the CAP Metagame section would be like one/two sentences per cap pokemon vs the pokemon in the analysis
<Stellar> about how it plays against / works with those pokemon
<Stellar> maybe a bit more than one to two sentences but yeah
<DougJustCoding> It doesn't have to include ALL the other CAPs, just the ones that are noteworthy for that pokemon.
<Stellar> yes
<tennisace> maybe two paragraphs
<tennisace> caps it beats
<tennisace> caps it loses against
<tennisace> that way we only have to update that one section each time if applicable
<Stellar> and possibly how some sets would change slightly in the cap metagame
<Stellar> move addition / etc
 
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