DPP Ubers Rising From the Storms - An Uber Stall Team

Hi. It’s been a couple of months since my last Uber team, so I figured it’s time to create another one.

Overview:
Despite me alternating between OU and Ubers in team posting, I am still very much an Ubers fan. I love the metagame more than the other metagames. This team I’m using is a variant of stall, being slightly more offensively geared to take advantage of the entry hazards put up during the slow-mo part in the early game. I don’t believe anyone has used this team before-at least not the exact same content. But anyways, this team peaked me at #5 (probably could’ve gone for more but I stopped once I reached #5). And later on, I managed to shoot up from nothing to #6 on a different account using this team. In other words, this has been my most successful team.

Bragging aside, like my OU team, this team contains a star- Giratina-O. Like Theorymon, I’ve been unable to make a team without a specific Pokemon. While Theorymon can’t make a Wobbuffettless team, my teams generally gear towards this Pokemon, if I’m not using normal Giratina of course. Now as the metagame progresses, the team slowly gets outdated, with the rise in Payback Forretresses and higher usage of Giratina-O to go alongside a Deoxys-S leads. The team still nets me an average of 6:1 win-loss ratio, though.

Playstyle:
To achieve the most success with this team, risky decisions usually produce the best results. If you’ve locked your opponent into a disadvantage, predict their switch in and keep them at a disadvantage. While it may sound obvious to all of you, it is only utilized by few players on ladder, and on a team that wants to set up entry hazards ASAP this tactic becomes almost a necessity to save time and secure chances of winning. This is what the team is built upon: an offensive mindset with defensive members, and as contradictory as that sounds, it allows matches to end quicker while retaining the defensive core of stall. Just because it’s stall doesn’t mean you cut down on the predictions just because you think you have stuff to cushion the blow.


Team



Note: The EV spreads I post in here may not be the EV spreads I use. I will not tell you which ones I lied in. There are some extremely subtle hints though.

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Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP/ 28 Atk / 196 Def / 32 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

The new Groudon- I don’t know it spreaded but I’m fairly sure I was the first person to use Impish Groudon lol. But anyways, this thing sets up Stealth Rock, and uhh beat up Dialga leads as well as outrunning twash’s Groudon by one point lol. Choosing between Lum Berry and Leftovers bugged me a lot; Lum berry helps me get that Stealth Rock against Darkrai, but Leftovers help against Bulk Up Dialga and surviving a Lucario assault after SR + Spikes. This leads because I don’t have a better lead, except maybe Forretress but I’d rather keep some kind of edge against Kyogre with the sunlight and all.

Earthquake is for the obvious STAB and the ability to break down Dialga, while Dragon Claw helps a lot against Rayquaza, Lati@s, and Giratina-O. SR is obvious enough and Roar is something I’ve been testing recently, and it works with the entry hazards flying around. Bulk Up was in Roar’s slot because it helps against RP Groudons and endgame BU Dialgas, so I might actually go back to that.
Groudon also provides weather control-which can either be good or horrible. Often times, Groudon finds itself switching into Thunders or some physical attack to remove the rain which can plague my team is thoroughly abused. This trait allows Groudon to be an incredible suicide bait, potentially changing the game’s momentum upon its last breath.

The EV spread is simple for the most part. It survives 2 CB Outrages from Jolly Rayquaza-perhaps the strongest you’ll ever see. Extras are dumped into Attack and Speed for extra oomph.

I suppose this is all I can say for Groudon. I’ll let you all in a little trick though: Against Kyogre leads, I like to switch to Blissey to absorb their attack, then move right back to Groudon. This usually catches their physical attacker-often Scizor, off guard and nets me the Stealth Rock I need. It works 99% of the time, because no right minded person would keep a Scarf/Specs Ogre against Blissey while it’s Sunny.

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Giratina-o @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 86 HP/116 Spd/216 SAtk/92 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Substitute
- Thunder

I suppose it’s not fitting to put the star of the team in the second slot, but I don’t feel like shifting the order around. Whatever, I guess.

People are finally starting to realize the utility that Giratina-O has. Great news, great news…but for those of you still questioning its viability, and find Theorymon’s 16 pages worth of Giratina-O analysis too long to read, let me list what this Pokemon can do

First and foremost: Giratina-O is perhaps the best offensive spin blocker in the game. Unlike its cousin, this thing can threaten a quick sweep if not stopped promptly. With Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, and Spikes to go along this, the opponent struggles to switch around, knowing that 25%+ of their health can potentially be stripped. Giratina-O has the bonus of resisting Forretress’ only weakness, while Forretress resists all four of Giratina-O’s weaknesses. This is THE reason behind Payback Forretress, really. Payback Forry’s a pain but Giratina-O can at least severely dent it to disuse (or kill it if it’s raining with Thunder). That means for Giratina-O’s life, the entry hazards shall remain on the field. If they don’t have a Ghost, well sucks for them because I get to spin all of theirs away.

Secondly: Ghost, Levitate, Substitute, Calm Mind, and loads of power to boot- Giratina-O is a pretty good stall breaker, plowing through Blissey like cake. Again, THE reason some people actually go for CMBliss, which I have covered . CMed Dragon Pulse annihilates Latias at the price of its own life. But getting rid of Latias makes Kyogre’s life so much easier, so it’s death is not in vain. I’m pretty sure no one else in stall would love swapping into this. Levitate means no Toxic Spikes/Spikes damage., and with the increase of stall or Deoxys-S, this ability is invaluable. Switching into a Groudon’s Earthquake doesn’t hurt either.

It has immunity to Trick, and can set up to take advantage of it.

Anyways the next thing up is that you may ask why I went for Thunder on the last slot. It was originally Shadow Ball, and SBall has been working great for me. However, my numerous encounters with twash on ladder pinpointed by Cro-Ogre weak (CM/Rest/Surf/Sleep Talk), so I reluctantly switched to Thunder…and it worked very nicely for me. Thunder also allows Giratina-O to beat up Forretress, as the numbers of Forries using Payback are increasing. A CMed Thunder should severely dent Forry, and from there I can throw a Dragon Pulse for safety’s sake.

Oddly I’ve been considering something I thought I’d never will: using Timid Giratina-O. At the price of not getting past Latias, Giratina-O revenges Adamant Swords Dance Rayquaza and a weakened Lucario-preferably after they used Close Combat so that Dragon Pulse does >70% to it (or OHKO with Thunder in rain). No I am not swapping to Aura Sphere if I go for Timid. Losing bulk kinda tips me off though-I like surviving Spacial Rends and OHKOing Palkia afterwards, hopefully opening a Kyogre sweep. Or maybe I CAN still put bulk on at the price of some power, due to the entry hazards around. Hmm…

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Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Payback
- Toxic Spikes

Forretress is the team’s landmine-it sets up entry hazards surprisingly easily due to its numerous resistances-particularly Dragon and Ice, while Spinning away Deoxys-S leads’ entry hazards. Forretress plays a central role in Uber stall and is perhaps the only reason people use Fire Punch/HP Fire Deoxys-S leads lol. Forretress resists every single of Giratina-O’s weaknesses and thus often finds free switch ins.

Anyways, the premise is simple. Predict an Outrage, bring it in, and get a layer. Predict Blissey, and get a layer. Toxic Spikes is notable here as it destroys CMBliss pretty badly, as well as severely limiting Wobbuffet’s lasting power. Payback is simple: Smack Giratina-O and hope it doesn’t have Thunder or the odd HP Fire. It feels great to smack Gira-O on the switch though.

Forry provides the team with an essential Dragon resist. Although Forry can not do much back to the likes of Garchomp when they’re stuck Outraging, it can build up entry hazards and when Forry dies, Groudon can take its place. That and they can’t come back in forever due to entry hazards (SR in Ray’s case, TS+ Spikes in Chomp’s case). Toxic immunity is extremely helpful as well. This little shell finds so many switch ins its ridiculous.

The EVs are geared towards Special Defense to take on Spacial Rends and Giratina-O’s Dragon Pulses. Sometimes, being able to survive random Flamethrowers in the rain helps, while other times, not being 2HKOed by Latias’ Thunder can save the day.


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Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 136 Atk/252 Spd/120 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Flamethrower
- Outrage
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder

This is the glue.

You don’t see Scarfkia on stall teams all that often. But unlike other stall mine is more offensively minded. Palkia just fits in as the checker of things.

Anyways early in the game this serves to absorb Water Spouts from Kyogre, and later on Blissey can take that role. It stops DDRay from plowing through my team, and revenges Darkrai too. But I’m sure you’re all aware what Scarfkia does. I personally don’t like Scarf Palkia myself, but “he fits”.

The moveset is a slight alteration of the standard set: Spacial Rend and Thunder are practically staples. Unfortunately Spacial Rend just loves to miss at the worst times so I’m sort of considering Dragon Pulse over it. Call me crazy but it really does miss at the worst times. Flamethrower is chosen over Fire Blast for accuracy stuff, mainly due to Spacial Rend missing with 95% accuracy so I can’t imagine how much more will Fire Blast miss…but I suppose I’ll change this to Fire Blast if the extra power becomes suddenly needed. This was originally Surf, but it helps to works in both ends of the weather,

Finally, there’s Outrage. Y’all might be confused as to why I put Outrage in there instead of another move like Surf. Outrage is indeed quite unexpected and helps beat up Lati@s and weakened CM Ogre. With Refresh, the former is especially hard to beat, so Palkia can come in the first time they’re in and Outrage. This act often catches them off guard and nets me a free kill. However, if they catch on, I can always use Forretress the next time they come back in (as they probably would get a lot of CMs on the first switch in anyways). Outrage also provides me with a reliable attack to pick off scraps because of Spacial Miss >_<. Outrage spam has won me a game before-in a 4-1 situation.


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Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def/6 Spd/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect

As much as I hate using Wishbliss due to it being nearly impossible to get in the cartridges (especially with good IVs and nature), Shoddy Battle has it there, and might as well use it.

On a team that makes a lot of switches, Blissey is practically necessary to sponge hits from the likes of Choice Specs Dialga and Scarf Palkia. Blissey passes Wishes around, especially to Giratina-O, who lacks a form of recovery and would very much appreciate this. Seismic Toss for reliable damage against Mewtwo and Darkrai, while Toxic is almost mandatory so I can get rid of Lati@s

I am considering of changing this set to SToss/Toxic/Ice Beam/Softboiled, simply because without Ice Beam I can not touch Ghosts and Rayquaza/Garchomp suddenly loves me (though the latter probably eats a Toxic Spikes). Ice Beam also does something to Giratina-O, even if it’s only 22%. But meh, I’m sticking with Wishbliss at the moment

Well yeah this is Blissey what more can you expect me to say?

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Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP/184 Def/72 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Rest

This is the late game sweeper, and don’t tell me Rest sucks without Sleep Talk. It may seem so against offense, but it aids very strongly against stall and Lugia. With Toxic Spikes around, restoring health and status becomes crucial.

Kyogre is the second weather inducer, blocking sunny day abuse. Combined with Groudon, the two creates a powerful fort that cuts down on practically ANY weather abuse. So no more Ho-oh, Heatran, and Shiftry (even though Kyogre eats a Grass Knot) plowing through my team. Out of all the sets possible, I decided to go for the Calm Minder because it seems to cause a lot of pain in today’s metagame, as Palkia can not stop it easily. Scarf Palkia is especially harassed as it is forced to use Thunder to even have a shot to break through this, and they usually don’t spam Thunders because Groudon is present. That combined with Spikes, Stealth Rock, and poison damage from Toxic Spikes will end Palkia’s life quickly while Kyogre could be yawning at Palkia’s attempts to eliminate it. Kyogre is extremely tough to kill due to its typing and 140 base Special Defense.

So you may ask, why Ice Beam instead of Sleep Talk. I chose Ice Beam for Rayquaza, Garchomp and most importantly, Calm Mind Giratina. Doing extra damage to Palkia and Lati@s never hurts either. Also you may ask why the nature and EV spread-I tried to make Kyogre extremely bulky to survive a Swords Danced Dragon Claw from Rayquaza, as well as a Swords Danced Earthquake from non Life Orb Groudon, while the speed is there to outrun Lati@s and Gengar after it is Tricked a Choice Scarf.

Because Payback Forretress can not beat Rest/Talk Giratina-O, this is where Kyogre steps in to save the day.

I’m considering of changing this back to Modest so I can OHKO Darkrai with Surf


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Credits: Not really-I made this team all by myself >_>. However, credits go to Theorymon and twash. Theorymon pinpointed my SubSeed Skymin weakness (which I can not cover), while twash pressured me with Calm Mind Kyogre which forced me into using Thunder on Giratina-O. Also again I stole the threat list from twashley

Threat List /!\

Below is a threat list sorted via Ubers / Non-Ubers, detailing how I would tackle the Pokémon listed. Yes, I stole this from twash

The Ubers
Darkrai: Well uhh…I usually let Forretress take the sleep since there’s no one better to take it. Then I go to Kyogre/Blissey and hope to stop it. This is quite annoying though, and this is why I’m reconsidering Surf back on Palkia.

Deoxys: See Deoxys-S below

Deoxys-A: Focus Sash leads are annoying. Groudon is generally surviving Grass Knot though and can Earthquake. Forretress walls non HP Fire variants, Palkia is faster and can Spacial Rend. Giratina-O walls those without Ice Beam/Shadow Ball. This is a generally annoying Pokemon, though.

Deoxys-D: Forry can set up TSpikes on it if it doesn’t have Taunt, Giratina-O is probably faster and can Sub on it, and CM away. Blissey can Toxic if it doesn’t have Taunt. Kyogre can CM/Rest quite nicely on it


Deoxys-S: Groudon Earthquakes twice for the KO sometimes. Forretress can Rapid Spin, unless they have a Ghost or the rare HP Fire.


Dialga: This stuff is unpredictable-BU Dialga is often taken care of by Groudon, but Groudon’s EQ won’t do much after a few Bulk Ups, meaning I have to Roar it away. Specs Dialga is taken care of by Blissey, SR leads lose to Groudon one on one, and mix Dialga can be played around by prediction kinda, but it is pretty annoying overall.

Garchomp: Groudon walls Scarf pretty easily, and so does Kyogre. Swords Dancer loses to Kyogre, Choice Banded Outrages can be taken by a combination of Groudon and Forretress, while Giratina-O can swap in on a Choiced Earthquake.

Giratina: Kyogre for the most part-with CM and Ice Beam it’s not getting past it. Forretress can set up more hazards if it tries to spin block.

Giratina-O: Pretty annoying-I have to use a combination of Forretress, Kyogre, Palkia, and my own Giratina-O to defeat it. However, one of them is almost certain to die though.

Groudon: Kyogre can Surf it to death and Giratina-O can swap into Earthquake. Sometimes I can use my Groudon as a cushion. Of course, since it is grounded, it takes Toxic Spikes and Spikes upon switching in, severely cutting its longevity.

Ho-oh: Kyogre forever wall. But if that’s not enough Giratina-O can back up by being resistant to everything Ho-oh has bar Punishment, which is only seen on Scarf anyways (which is walled by Forry), Also, Stealth Rock cuts half of its health.

Kyogre: Palkia absorbs Specs Water Spouts, Blissey absorbs everything else. SubCM is taken down by a combination of Groudon and Blissey (and if I got TS before it switches in life becomes SO much easier). CM/3 attacks is walled by the same combination, while CMRestTalk is smashed by Giratina-O.

Latias: Blissey has Toxic, Forretress can Payback Refresh versions and Palkia can Outrage in emergency situations (which has happened a lot).

Latios: Despite it being stronger, it’s pretty much dealt in the same way as Latias

Lugia: Simple. Forry sets up entry hazards, Blissey can Toxic, and Kyogre can wall Lugia all day as long as it doesn’t have Thunder. Giratina-O can stop Trick should it have it.

Manaphy: TG/3 Attacks is walled by Blissey. TG/Surf/Grass Knot is walled by Giratina-O while TG/Surf/Ice Beam is walled by Kyogre. Groudon can mess around Hydration too.

Mew: I don’t like this thing it needs to die. Seriously though I got no counters :/ (closest was when I had Shadow Ball on Giratina-O)

Mewtwo: Annoying because of its versatility. Kyogre walls CM/Taunt if it doesn’t have Thunder, Blissey walls those without Aura Sphere. Forretress can hurt it with Payback in back up, and Palkia can revenge weakened versions. Giratna-O can switch in on a predicted Aura Sphere/Trick/Flamethrower and beat it up or set up.

Palkia: A few options here: Blissey walls Scarf, Forry can take Spacial Rends, Groudon lols at Thunder. Kyogre’s presence forces Palkia to use Thunder or it will lose as Kyogre gets Calm Minds. Giratina-O can often survive a blow and OHKO back with Dragon Pulse. SubPunch Palkia is annoying, though, so I try to predict between Kyogre/Blissey to stop it

Rayquaza: My switch in is Groudon for scouting purposes. The Swords Dancer is stopped by Kyogre. Forretress can switch in on lured Outrages and set up or “hurt it” with Payback. Palkia revenges DDRay.

Shaymin-S: While special attacking versions are walled by Blissey, SubSeed Skymin is truly the team’s bane and I have to work around with Palkia and a few luck to stop it.

Wobbuffet: Toxic Spikes mainly. I’ve seen some dumb Wobbs trying to Encore my entry hazards early game and get punished later on. Kyogre can severely dent it with Surf too.

The Non-Ubers

Blissey: Forry set up, Blissey can Toxic CMBlisseys, Kyogre and Giratina-O can CM up in their respective methods. Groudon can also hurt with Earthquake, while Palkia can Outrage it if no other options remain.

Forretress: Kyogre can Surf it to death, while Giratina-O can wall Rapid Spin and punish with Thunder. Palkia can Flamethrower in the sun.

Lucario: Groudon survives a +2 Life Orb Close Combat and OHKOes with Earthquake. Besides that though I don’t know….though perhaps making Giratina-O Timid solves this issue...

Ludicolo: Forretress can Toxic Spikes and Spikes on it, Giratina-O can Substitute on it while it only tickles the Sub with Grass Knot. Giratina-O can Calm Mind so it is nothing more than a feather and punish with boosted Dragon Pulses. The Sunlight from Groudon also removes his abilities from play.

Metagross: Groudon and Kyogre. Forry can set up Spikes/TS sometimes. Palkia can Flamethrower in the sun

Ninjask: Groudon.

Scizor: Groudon can generally come in. It won't like Kyogre's Surf. Forretress can set up on CBScizor, and once again, Flamethrower from Palkia in the sun.

Skarmory: Spikes spun away by Forretress, Kyogre can Surf, Palkia/Giratina-O can Thunder it to death, in the sun Palkia can Flamethrower it.

Tyranitar: Groudon absolutely laughs at the CB set and can Earthquake it back for the KO. Forretress can set up on Choice Banded Crunches, Kyogre can Surf and doesn’t take TOO much from Tyranitar.


Team Building Process:
We start out with the star and the focus:

This can lead up to many many options. After many teams I made with him, I looked for something with entry hazards. That can be Deoxys-S, Skarmory, and Forretress. Deoxys-S is out of the equation for now because I don't want to make another offensive team. I remembered the classic Forry + Giratina combo, and I wanted a Spinner with all of those Deoxys-S leads, and stuck Forry in



Okay now we need a Stealth Rock lead. There's Groudon and Dialga. Groudon became the first pick due to not being a Steel type and Drought.



Since we're going stall, there's another staple I forgot to put in




Alright now most of the weaknesses should be covered. However, the first thing that popped into my mind here was "Choice Specs Water Spout" and now it's either Palkia or Latias. Rather than going for the standard "place Latias in a stall team" and a defensive mindset, I went for Palkia to add some revenging touch on the team



Looks great. But uhh...the team is Calm Mind Giratina weak. It also hates Ho-oh's Sacred Fires and Darkrai is troublesome. Oh yeah Taunt CM Mewtwo gives the team problems too in a way. And with that Kyogre immediately springs to mind.





Yeah I know this is a lame team building process list, but I can't possibly remember EVERY thought that went into this team.

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Thank you for reading, and I hope you enjoyed it and the team.

This is a superb team. Great Job.

Unfortunately, I can not think of a way to deal with for weaknesses without messing up the synergy...However, I personally wouldn't make Giratina Timid because I feel you'd lose too much power and bulk...but if you can find a useable spread than by all means do it.

I honestly can't think of anything else...seriously though, this is excellent. :)

Hey jib jub.

You know I think this is an excellent team from the countless times we have played recently, and because of that I feel I should weigh in.

Now you've stuck Thunder on Giratina-O you obviously have lessened your Rest Talk Kyogre weakness which makes me a lot happier. Choice Specs Kyogre still looks a bit of a git to this team on paper (good luck passing Wish to Palkia against things like Garchomp and Rayquaza), but we both know there are ways around that by playing well (and Stealth Rock!).

Substitute + Focus Punch Palkia also causes you trouble as you know, but generally it's revealed late-game when really it needs to be bought out early-game against this team due to Toxic Spikes.

Rayquaza looks really, really frustrating for this team. As you say, Rayquaza is often hitting max damage against Palkia with ExtremeSpeed. A +2 Rayquaza with Life Orb also does 83.91% - 99.01% to Kyogre with Dragon Claw, and unfortunately many people keep their Rayquaza for late-game (when Groudon is likely weakened too). Just because I get overly paranoid about these things, I would support a move to Timid on Giratina-O, just to outspeed Adamant Rayquaza (if it's Timid it is far less of a threat to Kyogre). If you go for the suggested Timid nature I would also use an EV spread of 200 SpA / 116 SDef / 192 Spe. This allows you to survive a Modest Spacial Rend from Palkia after Stealth Rock 66% of the time (Timid fails to OHKO). Unfortunately, Lustrous Orb Palkia is far more troublesome but you should be able to play around it with Forretress to Palkia. Giratina-O will manage to OHKO 4 HP / 0 SDef Palkia 87% of the time after Stealth Rock, as well as outspeeding Rayquaza.

I would consider moving the Attack EVs on Groudon to Special Defense which will help you survive a +1 Dragon Pulse from Soul Dew Latios (goes from a 28% OHKO to 7%, which is more useful than the slight extra power in my view). Also means there is only a 53% chance to OHKO with SR instead of 66%. Again, it seems like a small change but if the Attack EVs are just for "extra power" it might come in handy against non-Grass Knot Latios! It also means that maximum Special Attack Latias will fail to OHKO with Grass Knot on average. Finally, it lessens the chance of Dialga OHKOing you with a Timid Choice Specs Fire Blast. (All of this provided you run the 28 SDef, instead of 28 Atk). I've been really nitpicky at this part especially because they don't really seem to be doing anything so I think you should move them (although for all I know that isn't your true EV spread!).

I also would prefer to see Spacial Rend stay on Palkia over Dragon Pulse. Spacial Rend is a 95% OHKO on 4 HP / 0 SDef Garchomp (accuracy factored in) as opposed to a 74% chance to OHKO with Dragon Pulse, seeing as you probably want to keep those Attack EVs. It is more handy against Choice Band Garchomp stuck on Outrage, or Swords Dance + Life Orb Garchomp (don't want to get hit with Earthquake after!). Perhaps the main reason for keeping Spacial Rend over Dragon Pulse would be the critical hit rate..which has saved me many times and probably saved you a couple too. I fear you will lack power if you go down the Dragon Pulse route.

My final suggestion is to put Surf on Palkia over Flamethrower. I know it goes down to the whole "double weather" thing, but I can see Surf being so hugely useful for the simple reason of Darkrai. Dark Void / Nasty Plot / Dark Pulse / Focus Blast Darkrai causes your team a lot of trouble, and a rain-boosted Surf will OHKO Darkrai after Stealth Rock / Life Orb damage. I personally think this is pretty vital as late-game Darkrai is going to cause you problems regardless (Forretress can't touch it, Blissey won't exactly like Focus Blast, and so on). It's definitely one of those Pokémon you can "play around" but Surf makes life much easier against Darkrai. Surf still does a ton to Scizor, OHKOing it with 2 layers of Spikes 66% of the time. Forretress, probably the biggest worry, is still 2HKOed in the rain. Forretress is definitely worrying but nowhere near as worrying as Darkrai is, so I support a move to Surf. The whole "OHKO vs. 2HKO" on Forretress thing is pretty huge, but it's even more important on Darkrai!

I apologize for this has been less of a rate and more of a "random discussion about what I would do", but I am sure you would have read it all because you are like that! :D. I have been so ridiculously nitpicky in this rate and I apologize for that too, but on a team like this I have to...Anyway, 5 starring, this really is an excellent team and it has been a pleasure playing it.

/edit: ugh, never realised it was that long. Apologies!!

This is an excellent team, Jibaku. Since it is almost perfect, i can only give my opinions. Put those extra Ev's on Groudon into Special Defence for random spacial rends and sunny day surfs. Put Toxic over Dragon Claw on Groudon, since you can really take pokemon by surprise that way! (I.e. Lugia, Giratina, oposing Groudon). I guess i won't be able to persuade you to go back to Rest Talk tina - o but it is much better on stall x.x

The team is perfect, nothing else can be taken out or put in, without ruining it's balance. Great RMT Jibs =D