|Aug 6th, 2009, 10:35:37 PM||#1|
Join Date: Aug 2008
A no-setup team thats ranked Really high on the leaderboard!! (OU RMT)
Depends on what you classify as really high
anyways this is a team that I came to grips with after lots of adjustments
The team originally started out as a way for Nasty Plot Togekiss to sweep, but it turns out that a +4 Aura Sphere (no life orb or anything) barely 2hkos blissey, and how often does togekiss get to +4 anyway?
in addition, Togekiss's SR weakness and slow speed made it dependent on one or 2 twavers as well as a spinner, and that was just asking for way too much
So I built this team that doesnt need to setup to win, and allows very few oppurtunities for the other person to set up
on with the team
Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP/160 Atk/96 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
Machamp is probably the best antilead out there nowadays. Encore is what makes it so good, I encore as the other person uses stealth rock, meaning they have to switch and I can get a free sub up.
Once I have a Sub, the combo of Dynamicpunch and Stone Edge is only resisted by Gliscor amongst the common OUers. Dynamicpunch has an 100 percent confusion rate, Stone Edge for flyers like Zapdos. Stone Edge also 3hkos the bulkiest of rotoms(a fun fact) but I rarely stay in for 3 turns waiting to get WoWed!
Machamp is also fairly bulky, you're gonna need something like a choice specs azelf psychic to ohko this thing. Gengar's non life orb shadow ball is like a 3hko so no worries there.
As a side note, Machamp really shuts down Ninjask leads if you think about it.
Team Synergy: Switches into Tyranitar and Scizor Uturns if they come out vs Latias
My entire team except infernape can take psychic attacks aimed at Machamp, as for flying attacks, well they dont exist.
Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
Another one of the remaining members from the togekiss team, Modest Specs Latias is no joke. If I manage to take down Blissey, This thing can Draco Meteor, switch out, come back in and Draco Meteor again. Repeat a couple of times vs stall, and I win!
Against nonstall teams, I actually like to Surf first because it lets me 2hko incoming Scizors, as well as 2hko all but the bulkiest of Tyranitars.
Dragon Pulse is for reliable Stab but I rarely use it now that I think about it, I might switch it out for Roost, if I tricked my scarf away
Speaking of which, Trick is also another move that I rarely use, but It helps me take care of things that like to set up, like curselax, cm jirachi, etc
I chose Modest over Timid because the only thing im missing out on outspeeding is Salamence, and Modest really gives Latias the power to 2hko Scizor and Tyranitar
Team Synergy: Takes Ground/fighting attacks, fire attacks aimed at jirachi/celebi
its main counters are TTar, Scizor, Metagross, Blissey and Snorlax
I can bring in Machamp against all of them, I bring in Celebi vs Metagross
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/176 Spd/80 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
The weak link to my team, altho it has sweeped a number of times. It also beats Stall to a degree, but Jirachi cant really set up in the face of Swampert and Hippowdon EQs
Its also not that powerful until it gets to like +4 or 5, so I thought about using CM suicune here with either Sub or Rest
The only reasons why I stuck with Jirachi was because it can prevent a sweep by enemy lucarios if they have used close combat once, then I outspeed and can Psychic
It also doesnt lose its recovery due to Sandstorm so thats always a plus
Psychic Thunderbolt has pretty good coverage, except that it has no chance vs Tyranitar
I am looking to Replace this, if Possible
Team Synergy: Tyranitar, Blissey, Snorlax and Heatran threaten it. I switch in Machamp or Scizor on the first 3, and Latias on Heatran
Scizor (M) @ Occa Berry
EVs: 176 HP/252 Atk/80 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- Brick Break
This is actually one of the best scizors Ive used. Most people opt for Choice Band, but then again, the theme of the team is no-setups, and a Scizor locked into Bullet Punch is just begging to get Dragon Danced on
with Occa Berry, Magnezone cant OHKO me so I can superpower for some good damage or Uturn out
The one time I had this out vs a Heatran, a scarf flamethrower managed like 65% but it may have been poorly EVed
This also stops DDTTar sweeps if Machamp is down, as Occa Berry lets me survive the Fire Punch
Pursuit vs Latias and Gengar, Uturn to switch out of things like Meanlook Umbreon, Bullet Punch for priority
Team Synergy: Takes Ice Shards for Latias, checks Tyranitar for Latias, Some good bulk so I can 2hko Flygon with bullet punch but flygon cant 2hko me
Prevents Gengar from ruining my team, Pursuits Latias
If rotom comes in, I either sac Celebi or bring in Latias for the Meteor
Gyarados and Kingdra are bigger problems but nothing my team cant handle if my team is at respectable health.
Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 232 HP/36 Spd/240 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grass Knot
Tinkerbell with a twist. I intially used the regular Tinkerbell set, but then I realized I didnt have a Stealth Rocker!
You know the drill, Twave for anything, if ground types come in I grass knot them
speaking of which, this Celebi is ridiculously good at luring out Scizors and Tyranitars and putting them at low health ranges so Latias can precede to sweep almost uncontested.
Metagross will be hard pressed to OHKO this thing so I can Twave them to make it easier for me to handle
Team Synergy: 7 weaknesses isnt too attractive but it does provide for a Ground and fighting resistance. Tinkerbell can beat its usual counters so this celebi switches out against very few things except Salamence
If salamence comes in, I usually sac something thats already at low health to either bring in Scizor or Infernape
Infernape (M) @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk/232 Spd/24 SAtk
Lonely nature (+Atk, -Def)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast
Probably the best revenger in the game and heres why:
Most fast scarfers are good but they lack power and are pursuitted too easily
Think about them, Gengar, Azelf, Latias, Flygon
Well Flygon isnt weak to pursuit but it isnt a lock to outspeed DD Salamence
I use a different set than whats on the smogon analysis, I chose to opt for a physically based Scarf Ape
Close Combat easily decimates ScarfTran, DDTyranitar, and some other stuff
Uturn to deal some nice damage to infernape's usual switch ins, aka Starmie and Latias
Stone Edge to kill Salamence and Gyarados
Fire Blast to kill Agiligross and to prevent myself from being unable to touch Hippowdon
My only complaint about this thing is that Close Combat cant OHKO Flygon and Kingdra(It comes very close to), but HP Ice is almost out of the question because it doesnt do anything to anybody except Flygon and gliscor
Stone Edge is almost always better
Team Synergy: Not much because Infernape has very few definite counters outside of starmie and Latias but both are weakened by Uturn
It acts as a safety net to all boosters listed in the analysis of moves, and, lets be honest here, It can ill-afford to switch into attacks aimed at my other pokes, all of whom are bulkier than this flying monkey
and Ill post a threatlist within due time
Last edited by never_again; Aug 7th, 2009 at 4:59:28 PM.
|Aug 6th, 2009, 11:05:02 PM||#2|
CAP Playtesting Expert
Join Date: Feb 2008
Taking a brief look at your team, I notice no attempt at team synergy other than Latias/Scizor, who as you pointed out, do work together well. For the most part, the team looks like it was given little thought and thrown together willie-nillie. You said this is ranked really high on leaderboard; was that a lure to RMTers or is there some truth to that? Take in mind I'm not bashing the team (in fact, some of my best teams were thrown together in five minutes or less from instinctive impulses) but it's easier to rate if we can get an honest estimate of the team's success.
Some things I've nitpicked:
Machamp: Sure it seems to do alright against Metagross, Aerodactyl, and Infernape leads, but what about Azelf. From my experience, Psychic does at least 95%.. not the kind of damage you want to be taking. My question here is what do you do when you encounter Azelf leads? Tyranitar would make a great Pursuit supporter as Azelf will likely Psychic as you switch. Then you Pursuit and they've done no harm and are out an exoectedly short-lived, but valuable player.
Celebi: Not the best of ideas to use Tinkerbell with SR and Grass Knot. Leaf Storm and Earthpower are invaluable in today's metagame. This is my newest favorite set and is truely a terrific threat when played correctly.
Scizor: I haven't done the calculations myself, but Occa Scizor seems to be a waste. I'm sure Scizor wouldn't like to eat a Fire Blast even if it takes half damage. the trick to using CB Scizor is not getting to trigger happy, literally. You don't want to use Bullet Punch to early in the game in fear of getting trapped by Zone. Most players won't want to sacrifice anything to Bullet Punch so early in game anyway and are likely to switch to an appropriate counter.
Infernape: seems like a weak link to me. I'd try some bulky SR/Pursuit Tyranitar here, which would provide awesome synergy along-side your entire team. Of course, Celebi won't appreciate taking 16+% damage each turn, but a replacement shouldn't be too hard. Just experiment!
|Aug 7th, 2009, 3:45:07 AM||#3|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Well if your using Jirachi for a sweep, then i would go Azelf, that would cancel out a fire weakness and overall Azelf has better stats for a sweep. A ground immunity is also welcomed. Heres a build you might want to try.
Azelf @ Life Orb.
56 HP / 232 SpA / 216 Spe
Explosion (always a good choice for a tough situation)
Psychic (STAB + Life Orb will do wonders)
Grass Knot (great type coverage)
With Azelf's already high ATK, explosion will laugh at Blisseys and will let you safely switch in.
Oh no. When Sarah finds out she'll tell mom and mom'll tell dad and he'll say, "Not now, I just got home from work."
Last edited by BonDog; Aug 7th, 2009 at 4:37:25 PM.
|Aug 7th, 2009, 5:34:27 AM||#4|
i've been crawling through the falling
Join Date: Jul 2007
First thing to note here is that your team is horrifically weak to quite possibly the #1 threat in this metagame - SD Lucario. With the standard moveset of SD/Close Combat/Crunch/Extremespeed @ Life Orb, it:
-OHKOs Machamp with Close Combat
-Close to OHKOs Latias (80.46% - 94.70%) with Extremespeed. That's about a 50% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock taken into account.
-Your Jirachi can outspeed, but it requires Lucario to be at -2 sp.Defense to OHKO. It's not too good a check but you still get OHKOed with Close Combat.
-Outspeeds and OHKOs your Celebi with an SD LO Crunch.
-Obviously OHKO's Infernape with Extremespeed after an SD.
Now, this SD Lucario weakness also ties in with your pretty big DD Gyarados weakness. After a DD, Gyarados with DD/Waterfall/EQ/Bounce can hurt you quite a bit:
-Bounce OHKOs Machamp and Infernape, but you can be lucky and Stone Edge as it Bounces on you. However "Stone Edge worst move in Pokemon" will probably miss.
-Earthquake can OHKO Jirachi (86.88% - 102.23% without LO) after a DD.
-Just like Lucario, Gyarados can OHKO Latias after previous damage with Bounce (81.13% - 95.36% without LO).
-Scizor isn't touching Gyarados.
-Celebi gets outsped and OHKO by Bounce, since you aren't running any bulk.
So, in order to amend these two weaknesses, may I suggest a DD Bulky Gyarados over your Jirachi? A set along the lines of:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant - 156 HP / 108 Atk / 100 Def / 144 Spe
Could really help you out against these threats. Replacing Jirachi with Gyarados opens you up to some new type weaknesses, but they are pretty well covered:
-Electric goes to Latias & Celebi
-Rock goes to Machamp & Infernape
Gyarados can wall any Lucario without Stone Edge (those with Stone Edge can be taken down by Celebi anyway) and with Intimidate + Stone Edge, it fixes your Gyarados weakness as it provides you with a nice check to it.
Not much else to say really, pretty solid team. Good luck!
|Aug 7th, 2009, 12:46:37 PM||#5|
Join Date: Aug 2008
I have indeed considered Azelf, but its pitiful defenses make it extremely prone to Scizor coming in on a predicted attack to Bullet Punch me
Also, its dependency on Explosion for Blissey makes it a one time only thing, and if Blissey protects or switches out, then Im screwed
vs Azelf leads, I usually Stone Edge and then switch out to Scizor to trap it or Bullet Punch it to prevent SR
Infernape is a great Scarfer because it is the only thing with over 100 base speed that doesnt get pursuited to death
It also has just the right combination of high power moves to revenge things
I will take your thoughts about Celebi into consideration, but if I dont get a Tyranitar then I will lack SR on my team
@ Giant Enemy Crab
Im actually banking on being able to force Lucario to Close Combat against my Machamp, or to bring in Jirachi then switch out to something to take the Close Combat
if it is at -1, coupled with one or 2 rounds of life orb, Jirachi should be able to finish it
As for Gyarados, Ive been trying to fit it into the team but it is SR weak and just isnt fast enough after one DD to outspeed Scarfers, and it can ill afford to switch out in fear of a Flygon Stone Edge or something
|Aug 7th, 2009, 2:04:01 PM||#6|
Join Date: Aug 2008
Hi flyingsolo, maybe you should consider Magnezone over Jirachi, really can help out Latias and let it spam those dragon attacks.
I'd say something along the lines of:
Magnezone @ Leftovers
40 HP/252 SpA/216 Spe
-Toxic/HP Ice/HP Fire
I'm a big fan of this set. Obviously trapping steels is totally awesome because they are the only things that can resist those Specs DPulse and Draco Meteor. Toxic is a neat move that covers just about everything that Magnezone has difficulty with, like Swampert, SpD Zapdos, and help stall Blissey a lil. HP Ice provides good coverage, deals some modest damage against stuff like Latias, Rotom, and hurts Dragons badly (like Flygon). HP Fire 1hkos scizor and forry, but I was never a big fan because switching Maggy in can be fairly risky and if its stuck on Bullet punch or Pursuit, its stuck and you can just sub up and kill it anyway.
Magnet rise if you want to kill metagross and bronzong that badly, since only they run EQ usually. I don't bother with it because Bronzong is easy pickings for Scizor and Infernape, Metagross are mostly lead nowadays too. I opt for Explosion; you mortally wound Blissey or kill 53% of the time, which allows Latias to just absolutely spam those DPulses/Meteors everywhere and deal major damage.
Find Me on Shoddy @ chenman333, dave333
|Aug 7th, 2009, 4:55:06 PM||#7|
Join Date: Aug 2008
you know I originally had Magnezone but then replaced it because I ran a set of
as you can see, I was forced to switch out more times than not thanks to its dreadful speed without a sub up, as well as being unable to touch things like gliscor, zapdos and latias
I never considered using sub toxic magnezone, but right off the bat I can imagine it having a hard time against things like sub cm latias and, well basically anything that can get a substitute up
As for hte last moveslot, Explosion does look attractive for being able to knock out blissey, but without magnet rise, its not like magnezone can get a sub up in the faces of metagross and bronzong!
not to mention Magnezone's inability to OHKO both Bronzong and Metagross
P.S. I have switched from SuperPower to Brick Break on Scizor because Dual Screens were getting really annoying, and Scizor cant OHKO things like Magnezone and Heatran anyway
I am sticking with Occa Berry at the moment because it can save me from stuff like DD Babiri Tar Fire Punch, Tinkerbell Celebi with HP Fire, DD Salamence with Fire Blast(I have survived it the one time it was used against me by a DD Mence)
and random things with HP Fire
Brick Break also breaks Empoleon Subs without the -atk and -def.
|Aug 7th, 2009, 5:18:41 PM||#8|
Join Date: Aug 2008
SubCM Latias gets wrecked by Scizor, so that isn't something to worry about.
You can still run Magnet rise with Toxic/TBolt/Sub, as Toxic deals with Swampert handily. Overall, very little of what you are facing is going to try to get a Substitute up. Common substitute users are Jirachi (needs to CM a few times first, giving you free hits), Suicune (...), Machamps (yeah...), Rotom as of late (you break sub with TBolt), etc.
Those examples you gave are all neutered by Toxic, which is cool.
Bronzong is a play toy for Scizor, and I don't see Metagross being too large of a problem either.
Find Me on Shoddy @ chenman333, dave333
|Aug 10th, 2009, 11:57:24 PM||#9|
Join Date: Aug 2008
as promised, after a busy weekend, a threat list
i stole the format from papainfernape altho im sure others have used it before him
P.S. now that i have pasted it, the little gifs look cute
Aerodactyl: itll get Stealth Rock up but not much else, it cant do much agaisnt Machamp and will get Stone Edged or Encored
Alakazam: Scizor, Infernape Uturn or stone edge
not a big problem
Azelf: Scizor, ill survive the flamethrower with Occaberry
beyond that Ill have to use Infernape
Blissey: Latias can trick it, Jirachi can set up on it altho less reliably, Scizor, Machamp, Infernape
Breloom: Most of my team outspeeds it but it can come in on Infernape Stone Edge or Latias Surf. At which point ill let Machamp take the sleep then outspeed and break the sub with anybody
Bronzong: Scizor uturn, Infernape fire blast, Celebi HP fire, Machamp
Celebi: Scizor's U-turn, I can survive the HP fire with Occa, Infernape uturn, Latias Draco Meteor
Cresselia: Scizor, Jirachi can set up, Latias can trick
Dragonite: Latias outspeeds, Infernape outspeeds after dragon dance and stone edges it
Dusknoir: not much except it cant do much against my pokes either
Electivire: Latias outspeeds even with modest, Infernape Close Combat
Empoleon: it cant set up anywhere, but if it does on Latias Surf or something Infernape can Close Combat
Flygon: Infernape can outrun Adamant scarf Flygon and OHKO if it has taken some damage with Close Combat
Forretress: Infernape, Latias, Celebi, Jirachi can set up
Gengar: Scizor, i can survive hp fire with Occa. Occa is pretty useful isnt it?
Gliscor: Latias Surf, cant do much against celebi
If it is weak, Infernape Fire Blast or Jirachi Psychic
Gyarados: Cant setup except for Scizor, but I can uturn out for some good damage to either celebi or Infernape for the Stone Edge. If it doesnt have Earthquake it cant OHKO Jirachi and I OHKO with tbolt
Heatran: Latias can Switch in, Infernape close Combat
Heracross: Scizor, Infernape Fire blast
Hippowdon: Latias, jirachi CANT setup so Im still looking to replace it
Infernape: Latias can take a HP Ice but Infenrape will outspeed cus im Modest. my own Infernape can Close Combat it
Jirachi: I might get a Magnezone jsut for scarf Jirachi, but Jirachi can get a sub up. Celebi can take a few Iron heads and Paralyze it. Infernape can outspeed and Fire blast it
Jolteon: My only chance is to Close Combat it with Infernape.
Kingdra: Infernape can outspeed it after a Dd or even after a rain boost and OHKO it with Close Combat if it has taken Life Orb damage or any other kind of damage
Latias: Scizor, Infernape Uturn/Stone Edge
Lucario: Cant setup anywhere as Latias still does some pretty heavy damage with Specs Pulse. other than that, if its at -1, Jirachi outspeeds and KOs with psychic
Machamp: Celebi, Jirachi, Latias
Magnezone: Infernape for scarf, nonscarf gets massacred even by Scizor
Mamoswine: Scizor, Celebi, Jirachi can psychic it if its at low health
Metagross: Celebi, Machamp, Infernape Fire Blasts
Ninjask: Machamp Encore
Porygon-Z: Scizor, Infernape outspeeds and Close Combats
Rhyperior: Celebi Grass KNot, LAtias surf, Bullet Punch, Close Combat
ALL Rotom-A: scarf variants get pursuited. nonscarfs get Draco Meteored
Salamence: Scizor, Infernape outspeeds and Stone Edges
Scizor: Celebi HP fire, Latias can catch it and 2hko it with surf, infernape
Skarmory: celebi, Jirachi, Specs surf and infernape
Smeargle: annoying, I might go with lum on machamp to beat this
Snorlax: Machamp, Infernape Close Combat
Starmie: Scizor, Infernape can catch it with uturn
Suicune: Celebi, Jirachi can calm mind along side, Latias can trick
Swampert: Latias, Celebi
Togekiss: Jirachi can get a sub up, Latias trick or meteor, infernape stone edge
Tyranitar: Bullet Punch, I brick break dd babiri and i survive the fire punch with occa
Umbreon: Scizor, Infernape
Vaporeon: Celebi, Jirachi can set up
Weavile: Scizor, anything Infernape does
Zapdos: Stone Edge, Draco Meteor