In-game tiers (RBY + GS)

I'll likely create a thread for each generation seperately as to not make discussion too messy. Anyone interested can weigh in...I did have tons of offer for help and appreciate it, but in order to keep this one centralized I'd like to keep the final say on all of it.

Criteria and guidelines for in-game tiers:

The best possible Pokemon is one that is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and takes 1 hp damage from everything, while also learning every possible HM, heals itself automatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best ones possible.

The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run through of the game. Those will be put in High tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in Low. Things that are neither efficient nor inefficient, for example Pokemon that have some opportunity cost but end up as good as High ones, will be put in the Middle.

Resources are available, but come with the cost of not being able to give it to other Pokemon. Giving Super Potions is fine because you can buy them and you have almost infinite money in the game. Giving a Pokemon a TM like the Dig in RBY cannot simply be assumed as there is likely lots of competition for it. The less competition there is for a TM, the more likely it is that the Pokemon in question can get said TM. A buyable TM can always be assumed, of course.

Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded runs with luck manipulation through resets, and aim for the absolute fastest time, but the real time spent on them is usually much, much more. Just assume you want to play through in a relatively low time frame.

Team size is actually by far most efficient if you use one member, but I'm assuming something more like 3 members as otherwise you get extremely centralized lists with starters and earlygame Pokemon at the far top and everything else is pretty much too shitty to bother with.

Here is a start of the RB tier list Altmer and I have worked on. Yellow is different enough to make a different list or to denote something about it when the RB one is done.

High

Bulbasaur
Charmander
Squirtle
Spearow*
Pikachu
NidoranF
NidoranM
Diglett (+Dugtrio)
Abra
Geodude
Doduo*
Staryu
Mr. Mime
Snorlax
Zapdos

Mid

Caterpie
Rattata*
Sandshrew*
Clefairy
Jigglypuff
Oddish
Meowth
Psyduck*
Mankey
Poliwag
Bellsprout
Slowpoke*
Farfetch'd*
Gastly
Drowzee
Exeggcute
Rhyhorn
Jynx
Magikarp
Lapras
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Articuno


Low

Weedle
Pidgey
Ekans
Vulpix*
Zubat
Paras
Venonat
Growlithe*
Machop
Tentacool
Ponyta
Magnemite
Seel
Grimer
Shellder
Onix
Krabby
Voltorb
Cubone
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Lickitung
Koffing
Chansey
Tangela
Kangaskhan
Horsea
Goldeen
Scyther
Electabuzz
Magmar
Pinsir
Tauros
Ditto
Flareon
Porygon
Omanyte
Kabuto
Aerodactyl
Moltres
Dratini

Not tiered

Mewtwo
Mew

Spearow: possible drop to Mid
Rattata: possible raise to High
Sandshrew: possible raise to High
Psyduck: possible drop to Low
Vulpix/Growlithe: possible raise to Mid
Slowpoke: possible drop to Low
Farfetch'd: possible drop to Low
Doduo: possible drop to Mid
I'd appreciate input on these, as Altmer and I were somewhat doubtful on them:

Spearow: possible drop to Mid (I lean towards High, Altmer Mid)
Rattata: possible raise to High (I lean towards High, Altmer Mid)
Sandshrew: possible raise to High (I lean towards High, Altmer Mid)
Psyduck: possible drop to Low (unsure)
Vulpix/Growlithe: possible raise to Mid (unsure)
Slowpoke: possible drop to Low (much like Psyduck)
Farfetch'd: possible drop to Low (I lean towards Mid, Altmer Low)
Doduo: possible drop to Mid (unsure)

I'd put rattata more towards high just for it's sheer use as a HM slave.


I'd recommend Spearow stays in High,because it can be caught almost immediately after starting and It's Base stats are better then Pidgey's at that level;most notably in speed and attack.
And as Fearow and Pidgeot;as you can see Fearow reaches base stats almost equal to Pidgeot's,but only 4 levels after it would evolve in Pidgeotto.The main difference is in the beginning Spearow is superior,but as final forms Pidgeot is more defensively minded.
----------Fearow---Pidgeot-----
HP : -----65---------83
Atk: -----90---------80
Def: -----65---------75
Spc:-----61---------71
Spe: ----100---------91

Vulpix and Growlithe
Well compared to how late you get them,they seem pretty suckish;However,Arcanine and Ninetales are both very useable.
Ok first off Arcanine is superior in every Base stat except for Spe and Spc
Arcanine:Speed isn't to much of a letdown only 5 points,but 20 point's on Spc is a little disapointing(Then again,Arcanine ins't exactly a wall)Att is impressive;Overall pretty decent Poke.

Ninetales:Good speed and Spc,but other stats at pretty disappointing.I'm not to sure what to say,good at spreading the status for bulkier opponent pokes(I'm thinking about Lorelie of the E4 the most)

-------Arcanine----Ninetales----
HP : -----90---------73
Atk: -----110--------76
Def: -----80---------75
Spc:-----80---------100
Spe: ----95---------100

Overall I think Growlithe should be moved to mid and if he is stay there because of late accessability.
I think Vulpix should stay low personally,as stated in the above paragraph(Sorta like one)

Still going to edit some more.

Sorry for the lack of updating in a while, me/Altmer didn't meet up as often as I'd have liked so I decided to finish the RB list by myself. Yellow list will come soon.

Base stats aren't that relevant, unless you have like zero base stats. Movepool, leveling opportunity and such are better.

Yellow

Changes from RB:
Bulbasaur High -> Mid
Mankey Mid -> High
Farfetch'd Mid -> Low

Meowth Mid -> N/A
Jynx Mid -> N/A
Weedle Low -> N/A
Ekans Low -> N/A
Koffing Low -> N/A
Electabuzz Low -> N/A
Magmar Low -> NA

High

Charmander
Squirtle
Spearow*
Pikachu
NidoranF
NidoranM
Diglett (+Dugtrio)
Mankey
Abra
Geodude
Doduo*
Staryu
Mr. Mime
Snorlax
Zapdos

Mid

Bulbasaur
Caterpie
Rattata*
Sandshrew*
Clefairy
Jigglypuff
Oddish
Psyduck*
Poliwag
Bellsprout
Slowpoke*
Gastly
Drowzee
Exeggcute
Rhyhorn
Magikarp
Lapras
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Articuno

Low

Pidgey
Vulpix*
Zubat
Paras
Venonat
Growlithe*
Machop
Tentacool
Ponyta
Magnemitew
Farfetch'd
Seel
Grimer
Shellder
Onix
Krabby
Voltorb
Cubone
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Lickitung
Chansey
Tangela
Kangaskhan
Horsea
Goldeen
Scyther
Pinsir
Tauros
Ditto
Flareon
Porygon
Omanyte
Kabuto
Aerodactyl
Moltres
Dratini

Not tiered

Weedle
Meowth
Ekans
Jynx
Koffing
Electabuzz
Magmar
Mewtwo
Mew

EDIT: Sorry, I assumed wrongly when I read the not-tiered Pokemon. For some reason I thought they had yet to be tiered.

Electabuzz is in Low in RB, and it's unobtainable in Yellow, so I don't know what you're talking about.

We're assuming no trades. That's a part of it. If not Gengar would be higher.

GOLD/SILVER

High

Chikorita
Cyndaquil
Totodile
Spearow
Rattata
Mareep
Wooper
Gyarados [Event]
Drowzee
Abra
Sudowoodo
Machop
Eevee (Espeon)
Ho-oh [Gold]
Lugia [Silver]

Mid

Pidgey
Hoothoot
Sentret
Caterpie
Geodude
Jigglypuff
Sandshrew
Gastly
Bellsprout
Poliwag
Magikarp
Slowpoke
Oddish
NidoranF
NidoranM
Snubbull
Mankey
Miltank
Magmar
Jynx
Tentacool
Chinchou
Doduo
Lapras
Snorlax
Suicune
Ho-oh [Silver]
Lugia [Gold]

Low

Pikachu
Weedle
Ledyba
Spinarak
Zubat
Clefairy
Togepi
Ekans
Dunsparce
Unown
Onix
Hoppip
Paras
Goldeen
Ditto
Pineco
Yanma
Sunkern
Exeggcute
Wobbuffet
Venonat
Scyther
Pinsir
Heracross
Koffing
Grimer
Magnemite
Voltorb
Aipom
Vulpix
Growlithe
Stantler
Marill
Diglett
Meowth
Psyduck
Tyrogue
Girafarig
Tauros
Electabuzz
Mr. Mime
Smeargle
Farfetch'd
Natu
Qwilfish
Krabby
Shuckle
Staryu
Shellder
Corsola
Remoraid
Seel
Lickitung
Tangela
Eevee (Jolteon)
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Eevee (Flareon)
Eevee (Umbreon)
Horsea
Gligar
Delibird
Swinub
Teddiursa
Phanpy
Mantine
Skarmory
Ponyta
Cubone
Kangaskhan
Rhyhorn
Murkrow
Slugma
Sneasel
Misdreavus
Porygon
Chansey
Aerodactyl
Raikou
Entei
Dratini
Larvitar

N/A
Kabuto
Omanyte
Bulbasaur
Charmander
Squirtle
Articuno
Zapdos
Moltres
Mewtwo
Mew
Celebi

Crystal changes:
Poliwag: Mid -> High (obtainable much much earlier)
Suicune: Mid- > High (event now)
Staryu: Low -> Mid (Water Stone available much earlier)
Exeggcute: Low -> Mid (Leaf Stone available much earlier)
Growlithe: Low -> High (available much earlier AND Firestone available much earlier)
Eevee (Vaporeon): Low -> Mid (Water Stone available much earlier + Surf HM, other Eeveelutions don't have sufficient movepools to become better)
Ho-oh: to Low, since you need to hunt down Raikou and Entei AND do the sidequest only to obtain it post-Elite Four
Lugia: same as Gold Lugia, AKA Mid
And some Pokemon are unavailable in Crystal.

CRYSTAL

High

Chikorita
Cyndaquil
Totodile
Spearow
Rattata
Poliwag
Wooper
Gyarados [Event]
Drowzee
Growlithe
Abra
Sudowoodo
Machop
Eevee (Espeon)
Suicune

Mid

Pidgey
Hoothoot
Sentret
Caterpie
Geodude
Jigglypuff
Sandshrew
Gastly
Bellsprout
Magikarp
Slowpoke
Oddish
Exeggcute
NidoranF
NidoranM
Snubbull
Mankey
Miltank
Magmar
Jynx
Tentacool
Staryu
Chinchou
Doduo
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Lapras
Snorlax
Lugia

Low

Pikachu
Weedle
Ledyba
Spinarak
Zubat
Clefairy
Togepi
Ekans
Dunsparce
Unown
Onix
Hoppip
Paras
Goldeen
Ditto
Pineco
Yanma
Sunkern
Wobbuffet
Venonat
Scyther
Pinsir
Heracross
Koffing
Grimer
Magnemite
Voltorb
Aipom
Stantler
Marill
Diglett
Meowth
Psyduck
Tyrogue
Tauros
Electabuzz
Mr. Mime
Smeargle
Farfetch'd
Natu
Qwilfish
Krabby
Shuckle
Shellder
Corsola
Seel
Lickitung
Tangela
Eevee (Jolteon)
Eevee (Flareon)
Eevee (Umbreon)
Horsea
Gligar
Delibird
Swinub
Teddiursa
Phanpy
Mantine
Skarmory
Ponyta
Cubone
Kangaskhan
Rhyhorn
Murkrow
Slugma
Sneasel
Misdreavus
Porygon
Chansey
Aerodactyl
Raikou
Entei
Dratini
Larvitar
Ho-oh

N/A
Mareep
Vulpix
Girafarig
Remoraid
Kabuto
Omanyte
Bulbasaur
Charmander
Squirtle
Articuno
Zapdos
Moltres
Mewtwo
Mew
Celebi

Ho-oh needs to be Low in Crystal; it's such a pain to get and by the time you do you've likely completed the whole game already

Is order within tiers not specified? Because there is no way Chikorita is higher than Cyndaquil and Tododile and Abra lower than Drowzee in Crystal.

It's roughly in Pokedex order, definitely not ordered for capabilities within a tier. Sometimes I'd screw this up when moving Pokemon around from tier to tier, I plan on fixing that later.

RBY is in Pokedex order, GSC is in Johto dex order. I'm assuming that when we get round to RSE we will be using Hoenn dex order; FRLG will use Kanto dex order again.

I really think that these things need more gradients. Comparing your RBY tier list to something like Fire Emblem 8, you have half as many tiers for listing twice as many entries.

I really think that it is possible to rank everything even within tiers, especially the higher tiers (which actually matter). Regardless, I think there needs to be more separation than "everything fits into one of three groups." It seems very unfair that utterly useless Pokemon like Larvitar, Misdreavus, and Unown are ranked on the same tier with things like Onix and Scyther.

Five tiers seems reasonable, as it allows you to separate "amazing" from "above average" and "below average" from "completely and utterly worthless."

To address one specific listing: I think that the legendary dogs belong higher on the list, as their relative level ranges from "astounding" from the time they're first available to "decent" by the end of the game. If you encounter one early on, you should definitely chuck a ball at it, and if you succeed in capturing it, you'd be out of your mind not to make use of it. Suicune definitely belongs in the top tier. The others aren't quite as good (Entei doesn't learn Flamethrower until level 51 and Raikou only has Bite and Spark to work with) but they're definitely "better than average."

Wait, Tentacool at low in RBY? That thing has a massive special even at a low level, and I don't think many in game trainers have Earthquake. Psychic might be a problem, but again, massive special. Not to mention it gets STAB'd surf action.

I'd consider moving Onix and Heracross up to mid, as Onix is easily the first accessible Rock/Ground type, since it's traded it gets more experience, you can farm magnemites on route 38/39 for Metal Coats to evolve it into Steelix, and an early Steel type is a very good thing, although it does require you be able to trade with someone.

Heracross comes very early, and although it doesn't get a good STAB move until late in the game, it can run a simple (Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk/Return or another physical move) set until it learns Megahorn, which you can replace either Curse or Return with and you can defeat many people with it alone. You can also save money on things like PP Restores and Potions since Rest and Sleep Talk circumvent PP and HP issues.

Kannon, Onix can't evolve in-game, as evolution requires a trade. However, Onix is quite useful early on, especially considering the first gym leader, Faulkner (flying/normal types). Onix comes by trade, meaning that it gets 50% bonus experience gain, which is also nicel; disobedience isn't really an issue since Onix's level will probably not outstrip your badge level (and besides it's going to become obsolete pretty quickly anyway).

Okay, first things first, the nidorans need their own tier. They are the gods of RBY in-game, and that needs to be known. At their final stage their TM movepool is gigantic, they learn Strength, Surf. and Cut, and have relatively humongous stats for ingame. And to top it off, Nidoking/Queen are available as early as Mt. Moon with very little training required.

While articuno is hard to get, I think you could consider it for high tier since it kills Lance and agatha AND bruno by itself with little to no training. Rhyhorn seems like it should be lower. It's only available in the safari zone, and as you know the later you catch something the less statexp it has and the more it sucks. Also, it doesn't evolve until level 55 or so and you'd have to give it your earthquake or dig TM since its natural movepool is garbage until the later levels. Also, Graveler completely outclasses it in-game imo, but I guess that shouldn't count against it in tier placement. I think I'm alone on this, but Vaporeon is great in-game with super high special STAB surfs, it can sweep anything, even grassers. And you could always give it Ice Beam or Blizzard if grass gives you trouble. Plus it's so easy to get, just buy your free eevee a stone and bam, you have a new powerhouse to your team with no effort on your part. Clefairy I think is great in-game since it's fully evolved so early on and can learn so many TMs and has good stats for when you get it if you choose to evolve it right away. The only downside is its rarity, but should that really be enough to pull it all the way down to mid?

As for the asterisk'd pokes, I don't feel like writing a detailed paragraph for each so:

Spearow: High
Rattata: High
Sandshrew: High
Psyduck: Low
Vulpix/Growlithe: Low
Slowpoke: Low
Farfetch'd: Mid
Doduo: High

if you want my reasoning just ask

also, sorry for the bump

420 said:

as you know the later you catch something the less statexp it has and the more it sucks.

Click to expand...

I think capture time has less to do with statexp (which will probably make a difference of only a few stat points) and more do to with the fact that a Pokemon isn't as "useful" if it can't be used for the first half of the game.

here's our draft of rs (just posting this to link it to Fireburn)

-High-

Treecko
Torchic
Mudkip
Lotad
Taillow
Ralts
Whismur
Makuhita
Aron
Numel

-Mid-

Zigzagoon
Seedot
Wingull
Shroomish
Abra*
Magikarp
Geodude
Tentacool
Machop
Electrike
Magnemite
Oddish
Carvahna
Zangoose

-Low-

Poochyena
Wurmple
Surskit
Slakoth
Nincada [Ninjask + Shedinja]
Goldeen
Marill
Nosepass
Skitty
Zubat
Sableye
Mawile
Meditite
Plusle
Minun
Voltorb
Volbeat
Illumise
Doduo
Roselia
Gulpin
Wailmer
Slugma
Torkoal
Grimer
Koffing
Spoink
Sandshrew
Spinda
Skarmory
Trapinch
Cacnea
Swablu
Seviper

Abra: Mid or High?
Whismur: Mid or High?
Zubat: Low or Mid?
Koffing: Low or Mid?

You might be interested in visiting the Fire Emblem forums like Serenes Forest where similar tier lists have been discussed a long time.

Based on my experience in Red/Blue I would make top tier like this:

Squirtle
Abra
Staryu
Tentacool
Pikachu
Zapdos

And possibly

Nidoran
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Diglett

I've found Water-types are, in most cases, the best in the game. They're valuable for beating Geodudes in earlygame and once they get Surf they tide through the endgame easily. So for them it's just a matter of availability and what they have to offer in other moveslots. Squirtle's a starter and can hit hard both physically and specially. Staryu comes at level 30 in the Seafoam Islands, just in time to level it up at Cinnabar, and it can learn Recover, Ice Beam/Blizzard, and Thunder/bolt. You can get Tentacool at level 35 or 40 the moment you leave Fuchsia and it has a monstrous Special, but its movepool isn't quite as good as Staryu's.

Abra would probably be number one but it's tricky to catch and train. It kills Rocks just as well as Water-types, and it makes a lot of otherwise tricky parts of the game much easier. And of course it learns Recover and Psychic by level-up.

Diglett's a weird case because it's pretty much only good for beating Lt. Surge. However, it's really good at that, and considering that your other Pokémon probably aren't, it deserves a high spot.


Edit: I'm running through Blue right now.

Just tested, Kadabra actually gets beaten by the Slowpokes in Rock Tunnel. Don't know where I got the idea that he tanked them; they can Headbutt him to death.

Pikachu works better in early-game than I remember. It's self-sufficient as long as you team it with something that can kill Rocks. Although it's probably not yet ready to solo Misty by the time you hit Cerulean (it needs to be about level 22 to have a better-than-even odds), Pikachu's great against your rival and loves the experience it can get from the Waters in the S.S.Anne. Once it gets Swift it can even try killing Grass-types and the Digletts in Diglett Cave.

Mekkah, in R/S you absolutely need to put Groudon and Kyogre in high. Not only because they can be captured just by following the storyline (without useless deviations like the Regi trio), they come at an acceptable level (45) and most importantly they have Bulk Up/Calm Mind. Thanks to the stat up move and their powerful STAB, they can sweep some of the most difficult elite four (notably Drake and Steven) almost efforlessly (cm on, how difficult can be set upping on Shelgon or Skarmory?). I won my R/S playthroughs countless times only because of the cartridge legend (no matter how cheap it can seem - they are that good).

Zigzagoon should be high tier for sure, it's easily the best utility Pokemon in the game and any extra slots should go to Zigzagoons. Even in Emerald, where the item drops you get from low-level Zigzagoons aren't as good, it still deserves high tier, if only for being one of the few Pokemon that does something useful while warming the bench. It also is useful as an HM slave, making a fine dumping ground for useless attacks like Cut and Rock Smash, and if you catch a Linoone later on (not that hard) you can teach it Strength.

Koffing belongs near the bottom due to having a generally bad movepool. It's not statistically good enough to justify using it considering how late it comes.

Castform isn't listed, and neither is Kecleon. Both are sort of novelty, but Kecleon gets points for actually being not totally useless as an attacker.

Aron doesn't deserve high tier. Not evolving until level 32 hurts it a lot. It levels up slowly (it's on par with Magikarp), and most of the moves it learns naturally aren't 100% accurate; Metal Claw, Take Down, and Iron Tail can all miss, and using an Earthquake TM on Aron seems like a waste. Also take into account that Metal Claw is its only STAB until level 48, unless you decide to delay evolution; by that point, the game is practically over. Aron is mid tier at best, and I'd put it in the bottom half of the tier.

I'm loving that we're doing ingame tiers.

Anyway, A few thoughts that work in all of RBY:

Growlithe and Vulpix need to be Mid. Ember isn't too great for a while but it's still good for Erika (and in Yellow, Koga) and can evolve whenever you want it as stones are readily available. If you didn't get Charmander they're your best Fire-type bets.

Rattata needs to be High for sure. Hyper Fang late is good enough, but getting it early is a lock. If you give it just one of the three hard-to-get TM's for hitting rocks (Bubblebeam, Dig, Ice Beam), you have an amazing Pokemon with good speed and movepool.

Spearow can stay in High, with Peck early and Drill Peck late. Always nice to have an in-game flyer to save on time too, and this one can fight so it's not just an HM slave. Fast and strong enough as well.


Doduo needs to be low in GSC, as you get it so late and by that time you could have a Fearow or Pidgeot at a higher level. It's a good Pokemon but waiting that long isn't worth it.