A Latios Discussion Thread

Latios Discussion Thread


Welcome to my first discussion thread on smogon! I hope this would be an understandable english because my english isn't so realy good.

So let's begin.

First of all we'll look to its Base Stats, which are 80 HP / 90 Atk / 80 Def / 130 SAtk / 110 SDef / 110 Spe.

So you see that Latios seems to be a special sweeper with 130 Base special attack. Also the special defens is with 110 good. So we could say that Latios is played specially and not physically.

Latios on the defensive
Resist: 2x Grass, 2x Electric, 2x Fire, 2x Psychic, 2x Water, 2x Fighting
Weak: 2x Bug, 2x Ghost, 2x Dragon, 2x Dark, 2x Ice
Immune: Ground


Now just look on the typing of Latios. It has 6 resist. 3 of the resist are often in uber (Electric, Fire and Water). So Latios could realy good be switched in in a Waterattack of Kyogre, a Fireattack of Groudon or an Electric Attack of Latias. But on the other side it has a lot of important weaks in uber. So the Dragon Weak and the Ice Weak make the biggest problems for Latios in Uber. In Uber there are many Pokemon that use Dragon Attacks (Rayquaza, Groudon, Palkia, Dialga, ...), this makes it even more difficult to switched in in alot of teams. Also the Ice Weak could be a big problem because in Uber we just now there are many dragons and dragons are weaked of Ice attacks, so Ice Attacks like Blizzard, Ice Shard, Ice beam are often used in Uber. Good Pokemon to use these Ice attacks are Lugia, Mamoswine, Abomasnow, Kyogre...

Latios on the offensive

Now we know something about the defensive character of Latios, now we'll speak about the offensive character of Latios.


Movesets


Latios @ Soul Dew
EV Spread: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Calm Mind
~ Thunder
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Recover
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Latios @ Soul Dew
EV Spread: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Calm Mind
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Refresh
~ Recover
---


Latios @ Soul Dew
EV Spread: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Draco Meteor
~ Thunder
~ Grass Knot
~ Recover
---

These are the most common sets I know if someone know other sets of Latios feel free to post it!


notable Moves

At least here are the notable moves of Latios to use in uber:
- Calm Mind
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Energy Ball
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Light Screen
- Memento
- Psychic
- Recover
- Refresh
- Reflect
- Roar
- Safeguard
- Thunder
- Thunderbolt
- Trick



That's all for now!
Some damage clculations will be added soon as possible (maybe on the weekend)

Feel free to post all about Latios!


Happy discussion!

Are we supposed to discuss a certain topic of Latios here? Tier placement? How it fares in Ubers? etc

We are discussing how well it fares in Ubers, and if it has any more viable sets in the Uber metagame.

I use the Dragon Pulse/Thunder/CM/Recover set and have found Recover to be nearly useless. I use it maybe once in 20 games, and it is never necessary. I usually use it when a wob comes in on me and I don't want Latias to die yet. I use heavy offense though. A team that is more switching-oriented may want to use recover, but they really should be using latias anyway. I am seriously considering the use of Draco Meteor in the last slot. There are a lot of things that think they can come in on my Latios with no problems, like Haban Chomp, Groudon, and Dialga on Thunder, or Wob in general. Also, Dragon Pulse misses the OHKO on Latias. For all these reasons, Draco Meteor would be a nice one-time answer to those threats. I plan on testing a set with Dragon Pulse, Thunder, Draco Meteor, Calm Mind. I'll tell you how it went when I am done.

Hidden Power Fire is another option that you didn't list in the main post. Honestly it isn't needed though. Dragon Pulse + Thunder already kos Scizor. Latios can pretty much ko anything with Dragon Pulse and another move, it is that powerful. Dragon Pulse + Dragon Pulse/Thunder 2hkos the whole tier. The only things that fails to 2hko is blissey and steelix, and maybe registeel, so not bad.

Latios is highly underrated. A Soul Dew Draco Meteor off Timid Max SpAttk does ~98% on average to the most specially defensive Groudon set in the Smogon Analysis (252 HP 60 SpDef) Many pokemon cannot even survive a neutral Draco Meteor at full health, such as min/min Dialga, Darkrai, and Mewtwo. Blissey is quite possibly the only safe switch-in, but Wobbuffet handles her nicely. Heads up, few pokemon win, and of those that do win, few can emerge unscathed from a Draco Meteor.

PS I think that once the damage calcs go up, people will start to realize how much a STAB Draco Meteor hurts coming off 538 SpAttk.

PPS Which damage calc is the one that gives % damage? The one I've been using only gives numbers, and finding percents manually is sort of tedious.

Legends Never Die`s Latios



Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 192 Spd/240 SAtk/76 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder
- Surf / Calm Mind / Ice Beam


This set is extremely good at sweeping once entry hazards and the rain is out. Switch this in after a Kyogre is out stuck on Water Spout. When he switches, you Dragon Dance. Of course, the opponent thought you would have went for Thunder and switches to scarf Garchomp/Dialga/Palkia. This is now not the case as you are now faster than all three of them. If done correctly Latios can sweep through many guys.
This is not a "gimmick." I've been using this set for a pretty long time and Latios is definitely not a weak point of my ubers team.
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I tried that myself, and had great success with it.
It`s fun when people try to outpredict you and send in Scizor on it, only to be hit with a +1 Thunder (I was running Calm Mind).

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Evs:252 attack/192 speed/76 special attack
Hasty Nature/Naive Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw/Outrage
-Draco Meteor
-Thunder

Unlike Latias, Latios has the ability to 2hko Scizor with Thunder even without many evs invested in its special attack. Also Draco Metoer will do heavy damage to Groudon, Dialga and opposing Latias(latter will be ohkoed by a+1 Dragon Claw).
This set works only with entry hazards, one layer of spikes and SR should be sufficient in most cases.After one DD Latios does 46.47% - 54.75% with Dragon Claw to a 252def/252 special def calm Blissey, which means it can't toxic stall you with spikes and sr up.
It does 89.39% - 105.59% to scarfed Chomp or other non bulky variants a ko with one layer of spikes factored in.
Draco Meteor does 85.40% - 100.50% to max hp Groudon without any investment in special defense, which means it is a sure ko after one layer of spikes and sr.
Also Draco Meteor will do 88.53% - 104.41% to offensive Dialga, and 92.92% - 109.63% to standard CM Taunt Mewtwo/Lo Mewtwo.
As you can see even with all 252 evs invested in its attacks Latios will still be able to breack through walls with Draco Meteor and Thunder, while being able to beat Blissey too making it a extremly dangerous mixed sweeper when pulled off correctly.
But it has some downfalls too, which should be mentioned: Without at least one layer of spikes, you will lack the power to beat things like Blissey, Groudon and Dialga.
Also it has no means to beat bulk up dialga and a specially bulky Fortress cannot be 2hkoed by Thunder. Fortunately there is a way to eliminate both: Magnezone
If you are really worried about Bulk up Dialga, a Magnezone is the perfect teammate for Latias, so you can even go with a Hasty Nature allowing you to take hits from Kyogre fairly well. As Scizor is 2hkoed by Thunder it will most likely use Bullet Punch when you have nailed it on the switch, the perfect moment for Magnezone to switch in and set up a substitute.
Once Scizor Forrtress and Bulk up Dialga/Sr-Dialga are gone, nothing will stand in your way. Also safe DD for lategame, because you will find it extremly hard to sweep with Dragon Claw, which is only for scarfers and Blissey, so try to soften up your opponent's team with Draco Meteor and Thunder first and finish them off with a DD and Dragon Claw.

Uh, a lot of things can sweep with SR and a layer of spikes. That takes off 25% HP from most pokemon, especially in the Uber tier. Only Garchomp, Groudon, Lati@s, and Lucario take less than full damage. It's really not that easy to get a layer of SR AND a layer of Spikes, even with Deoxys-e, since there are leads that are tailored to prevent it from setting up hazards, such as Shaymin-s and Darkrai. Ho-oh is also a problem in sun, and I doubt this set can OHKO Mewtwo or Darkrai.

Chii said:

Unlike Latias, Latios has the ability to 2hko Scizor with Thunder even without many evs invested in its special attack

Click to expand...

Don't Latias and Latios have the same base special attack?

PokeN3rd_Pwnz0r said:

Don't Latias and Latios have the same base special attack?

Click to expand...

Nope. Latios has 20 more base Special Attack.

Private Piplup said:

Uh, a lot of things can sweep with SR and a layer of spikes. That takes off 25% HP from most pokemon, especially in the Uber tier. Only Garchomp, Groudon, Lati@s, and Lucario take less than full damage. It's really not that easy to get a layer of SR AND a layer of Spikes, even with Deoxys-e, since there are leads that are tailored to prevent it from setting up hazards, such as Shaymin-s and Darkrai. Ho-oh is also a problem in sun, and I doubt this set can OHKO Mewtwo or Darkrai.

Click to expand...

Actually, the set does 116% minimum to Darkrai with Draco Meteor, while minimum HP Mewtwo is always OHKOed after talking Stealth Rock damage (taking a minimum of 92% from Draco Meteor). I myself am skeptical of these Dragon Dance Latios sets, but I am not going to judge them until testing them myself. In fact, I have been meaning to test several versions of Dragon Dance Latios for a while now. I will report back later when I feel that I can make an accurate assessment of the concept of Dragon Dance Latios sets in Ubers.

Additionally, I will likely test a Choice Scarf Latios with Trick. I know its in other options already (and was used during suspect), but the idea of a Choice Scarf Dragon revenge killer with Trick sounds worthy of some testing in Ubers to me. It will probably have problems with Scizor, but I can always take advantage of Pursuits with Pokemon that can use the time to set up, or simply lure and kill Scizor before it starts spamming U-turn.

I tried that Latios and in my opinion it is completely outclassed by Latias.

Latios @ Soul Dew
EV Spread: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Calm Mind
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Refresh
~ Recover

Unlike Latios, she has the Ability to set up on almost all Specially Based Attacks, (I managed to set up on Specsed Spacial Rends once), I often find myself in situations where my opponent brings in a scarved Dialga on my +1 Latias and I can use it as set up bait, something Latios couldn`t do, I was using a different EV Spread, it was 252 Hp, 192 Spd, 64 SpA and a Timid Nature, non-scarf Garchomp couldn`t revenge kill it, and still with a 408 Special Attack (pre Calm Mind) It could still hit hard.
However, it has a tougher time facing Ho-oh.
In short, I think it`s outclassed by Latias, and Safeguard is way better than Refresh, with Safeguard Darkrai is NOT a check, as Dark Pulse can be used as set up bait, in fact a Dark Pulse does less than 25% to a +2 Latias.
I know I said much about Latias, but they are almost the same, and I think that it can`t be wrong to talk about her here.

For both Latias and Latios, my favorite set to run is Dragon Pulse/Recover/Grass Knot/HP Fire (in the sun of course). In the Sun, everything besides Blissey or full-health Ho-oh is hit hard. HP Fire is great for OHKOing Scizor and Forretress, and Grass Knot covers Groudon and Kyogre. Everything else is swept by Dragon Pulse.

This is similar to the Recover/Meteor/Thunder/GK set in the OP, but I like the set I posted for a few reasons. First, I like Pulse better than Meteor because it is actually capable of sweeping a team, and only Scarfers, Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Skymin outspeed Latios. Meteor is insanely powerful, but after at -2 things can absorb it much more easily, and Pulse 2HKOs everything it needs to anyways. Second, Grass Knot and Thunder are redundant in that Thunder covers Kyogre and Grass Knot covers Groudon and Kyogre. HP Fire is preferable to hit steels because even in the rain, HP Fire outdamages Thunder against Forry and Scizor, the two most important Steels in ubers (besides the Dragon-neutral Dialga), though I guess it hits Lucario or Metagross in the rain harder.

Although that all-special Dragon Dance set does look pretty awesome. I'll have to try that because I really could see it sweeping even at just +1 Speed.

umbarsc said:

For both Latias and Latios, my favorite set to run is Dragon Pulse/Recover/Grass Knot/HP Fire (in the sun of course). In the Sun, everything besides Blissey or full-health Ho-oh is hit hard. HP Fire is great for OHKOing Scizor and Forretress, and Grass Knot covers Groudon and Kyogre. Everything else is swept by Dragon Pulse.

This is similar to the Recover/Meteor/Thunder/GK set in the OP, but I like the set I posted for a few reasons. First, I like Pulse better than Meteor because it is actually capable of sweeping a team, and only Scarfers, Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Skymin outspeed Latios. Meteor is insanely powerful, but after at -2 things can absorb it much more easily, and Pulse 2HKOs everything it needs to anyways. Second, Grass Knot and Thunder are redundant in that Thunder covers Kyogre and Grass Knot covers Groudon and Kyogre. HP Fire is preferable to hit steels because even in the rain, HP Fire outdamages Thunder against Forry and Scizor, the two most important Steels in ubers (besides the Dragon-neutral Dialga), though I guess it hits Lucario or Metagross in the rain harder.

Although that all-special Dragon Dance set does look pretty awesome. I'll have to try that because I really could see it sweeping even at just +1 Speed.

Click to expand...

Latios obviously runs the set better, than Latias, as Latias is better off calm minding, rather than attempting to sweep with little or no boosts. I never got the concept of using Draco meteor on Lati@s, because it simply makes the Lati@s easily open for revenge killing, but it does gain a kill, on most things. I wouldn't just slap recover on Latios either, because he's rather fragile, especially on the physical side, and majority of the time with Latios, you're better off attacking the enemy and revenge killing with your next poke.

Draco Meteor is an awesome move on Latios, not Latias, the damage output is amazing.

I know this shouldn't be a Latios vs. Latias discussion, but Latias does run that set well. Whenever I've granted a free switch-in with Latias (like against Skymin, Kyogre, or Impish Groudon), I've always found outright attacking to be far more useful than trying to set up a Calm Mind sweep, and so many teams are unprepared for a 3-attack Latias. In fact, Latias may even be more useful because it actually can switch in on things and still pose a threat, but I'm not going to get into that.

i used that exact latias set on two of my previous teams and i can attest to how powerful it is. It's even better now that every fucking team seems to be running forry

Which set did you use?