Pesky Pixie - A Celebi Discussion Thread

Celebi Discussion

I've been meaning to get around to posting this thread, but have been busy with analyses and schoolwork. Celebi is an interesting dude in Ubers, and has some worthwhile sets. I've tested several with mixed, but overall positive results. And as Theorymon is apt to point out, Celebi cannot be completely divined by numerical analysis, it has to be experienced.

I will not be posting Celebi sets that are performed better by other Pokemon. These include things like the SubSeeder, which is outclassed by Jumpluff and Skymin because Celebi's bulk over them is negligible and easily compensated by the superior speed and movepool of the other two. Choice Celebi sets are outclassed readily by things like Mewtwo and Palkia.


Support Lead
Celebi @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/128 Def/128 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Grass Knot
- Recover / U-turn
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This plays similarly to the Groudon support lead. The idea is to use Thunder Wave and set up Stealth Rock. Celebi has enough bulk to live through attacks like Ice Beams from Mewtwo and Kyogre and Fire Punches from Groudon, so you can reliably get up Stealth Rock, although paralysis is preferred. The last move is up to you: Recover can help you gain health and stall for parahax, while U-turn makes sure that Wobbuffet doesn't anally rape you. This set works well on any Ubers team that isn't a stall team.

Perish Song
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Perish Song
- Recover
- U-turn
- Grass Knot / Leech Seed
---
This is a stall team's answer to things like BU Dialga, Cro Kyogre, and assorted Sleep Talkers, although I found such duties kind of redundant on mine. But that's probably because I like using CM Latias. Either way, don't even think of replacing U-turn, if only because of Wobbuffet being able to lock you in and murder you if you do replace it. If you want to use this set, try it on a Modern Stall team like Jibaku's, replacing Kyogre with it. I don't have the highest opinion of this set, but I can see why people would like it.

Calm Mind Pass
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/80 SDef/176 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Grass Knot
- Recover
- Baton Pass
---
Things like Palkia, Dialga, and pals don't get Calm Mind, so they can benefit from being passed a few. Also, another one of your Pokemon, even if it gets Calm Mind, can benefit from forgoing the move in exchange for coverage. You may want to try this with Wobbuffet or Screen support, but otherwise you can setup on stuff like Kyogre stuck in Thunder/Surf or against the new Groudons. Since you outspeed Kyogre and resist Water and Electric, you can counter it provided you avoid an Ice Beam.

Swords Dance Pass
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: Undetermined
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Recover / Leech Seed / Substitute
- Baton Pass
---
Even fewer Ubers get Swords Dance, and it is easy to sweep on the physical side against many Ubers, since there is no equivalent of Blissey. If you can pass to something like Dialga, Palkia, Mewtwo, or by some miracle Deoxys-A (accomplished via Celebi taking a hit likely buffered by screens and then passing), your opponent will probably shit himself. There isn't much documentation on this set, but you probably want to use Wobbuffet or Screens to help you pass.


Anything I missed? I know several of you have opinions on Celebi probably more educated than mine, so I would like to hear them!

I don't know much about celebi, but i do think that the subseeder set is viable; after all, jumpluff's 75/ 70/ 85 and Skymin's 100/ 75/ 75 defenses are much more frail than celebi's 100/100/100, especially considering the former two both lack recover.

Swords Dance Pass
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: Undetermined
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SpAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Recover / Leech Seed / Substitute
- Baton Pass

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I think you meant Jolly there

V97 said:

I don't know much about celebi, but i do think that the subseeder set is viable; after all, jumpluff's 75/ 70/ 85 and Skymin's 100/ 75/ 75 defenses are much more frail than celebi's 100/100/100, especially considering the former two both lack recover.

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I think Jumpluff's Sleep Powder, Encore, and Chlorophyll make it a completely superior choice, while Skymin's greater speed and Serene Grace Air Slash allow it to accumulate more Leech Seed damage(resulting in more recovery).

Celebi is a good choice for a sub seeder or simply a seeder, due to its excellent typing for ubers and bulk. It can set up on groudon, Lugia, Blissey, Kyogre(choiced), Palkia, Wobb just to name a few. Special defense is definitely the way to go, since it will be able to wall cs Palkia(no crits..), Cs Dialga, many Kyogres ( scarf does around 50% so swichting in Ice Beam won't be punished too hard), also only few Groudons have Fire Punch, so you can even counter Rock Polish Groudon. I prefer the Recover, Leech Seed, Hp ice/fire, Grass knot set. U turn is a good option too over the the hp of your choice.
It works well in stall of course, since it will cause many switches due to the absence of other grass types(Skymin isn't common at all), but it is usable in bulky offense as well, since many pokemon like to receive passive recovery(bu Dialga, Groudon, Ray), also it allows you to get consistant advantage over your opponent by using leech seed and uturn and is rather weather independent(although it prefers rain)

V97 said:

I don't know much about celebi, but i do think that the subseeder set is viable; after all, jumpluff's 75/ 70/ 85 and Skymin's 100/ 75/ 75 defenses are much more frail than celebi's 100/100/100, especially considering the former two both lack recover.

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I`ll have to disagree, the lack of speed really hurts it, and the better defenses and Recover won`t help you much.

I tested the SubSeeder and found myself thinking the following:

My team would be bitchin' if only I got rid of this damned thing.

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Chlorophyll Jumpluff is the fastest thing in Ubers, and has Sleep Powder and Encore to easily check threats. Skymin has a base 127 Speed and Seed Flare to force even more switches. Celebi's higher defenses still don't let it tank against the powerful assaults in Ubers. Basically, there are better options for both Bulky Offense and Quickstall, the team styles likely to use SubSeeders.

EDIT: The team I used was almost a carbon copy of Jibaku's Rising from the Storms team, but with Celebi over Kyogre. Also, this is not to say that Leech Seed isn't good on Celebi. I'm just saying that if you make Leech Seed the point of the set, you can find better Pokemon. But if you use Leech Seed defensively, like on the Perish Song set, you can find success.

Just a little edit:

Even fewer Ubers get Swords Dance, and it is easy to sweep on the physical side against many Ubers, since there is no equivalent of Blissey. If you can pass to something like Dialga, Palkia, Mewtwo, Rayquaza or by some miracle Deoxys-A (accomplished via Celebi taking a hit likely buffered by screens and then passing), your opponent will probably shit himself.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, and for the SubSeeder set, although Celebi has less Speed, it's not just plucked out of the air by Scizor, who's really common in Ubers now (U-Turn would do a lot, but you can save yourself by Subbing while he U-Turns).

I think what makes Celebi a unique Leech Seeder is its ability to seed the first switch in and then scout the following switch in with U-turn and pass to something that can set up on it, which will happen quite often since Fire is very rare (only hooh and mixed dialga can use it effectively) and special attacks like ice beam won't hurt too much due to its defenses and the passive recovery by seed and leftovers.

Kyogre can use them too, and I think Ice Beam will hurt Celebi alot.

Timid Ice Beam vs. max / max || 399 Atk vs 328 Def & 404 HP (95 Base Power): 168 - 198 (41.58% - 49.01%)

Modest Ice Beam vs. max / min || 438 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (95 Base Power): 254 - 300 (62.87% - 74.26%)

Celebi can possibly outstall it with protect and substitute, I still think Skymin does the job better.

Here are some calcs for Palkia vs max max Calm Celebi.

Timid Spacial Rend vs max max Calm Celebi: 32.67% - 38.61%

Timid Lusterous Orb Spacial Rend vs max max Calm Celebi: 38.86% - 46.04%

Timid Fire Blast in the sun vs max max Calm Celebi: 77.72% - 91.58%

Timid Fire Blast in clear weather vs max max Calm Celebi: 51.98% - 61.39%

Timid Fire Blast in the rain vs max max Calm Celebi: 26.24% - 31.19%

If my calcs are right, Palkia needs both a Life Orb AND sunny weather to always OHKO Celebi with Fire Blast!

Rock Polish Groudon would probably be a great recipient of the Swords Dance passer, as if you get +2/+2 on Groudon it's almost always GG. I've tried one the other way around (passing speed to a SD Groudon) and it rapes teams quicker and easier than many of the threats you listed, due to the ability to boost speed, the bulk to take priority attacks, and 150 base attack.

Um, Celebi really shouldn't be used as a dedicated Baton Passer like you have above. Mew completely overshadows its ability to pass anything, as long as its a dedicated passer. Furthermore, Celebi has less options to pass (mew can pass everything), and it has a whole host of weaknesses in addition to the ones from its Psychic-typing, which Mew doesn't have; theres a lot more ways to hit it for huge damage, which is not good for a dedicated BPer.

However, as a sweeper who uses Baton Pass as a method to escape or pass its boosts on as a last ditch effort, Celebi can actually be a better choice than Mew. Celebi as a BPer is a whole different animal than Mew, it should not be played in the same way. Rather as a CM sweeping Celebi. Then you can BP out of Scizor and Wobbuffet, and also pass your boosts to a Pokémon like Mewtwo if you are about to die.

Mew may be able to baton pass more types of passes, but if you're talking just about swords dance, isn't it really useful to also be able to baton pass leach seed?

Wrong V97, you can only Baton Pass Leach Seed when you are affected by it.
And Mew has Taunt.

You don't need to Baton Pass Leech Seed. It affects your opponent's Pokémon, like a stat drop, so it stays in as long as they stay in. U-turn is much better with Leech Seed, because Leech Seed will generally cause switches, and with U-turn you can scout these and maintain the advantage.

EDIT: It also lets you get out of Wobbuffet, who can turn you into set-up bait (not that Baton Pass doesn't); just make sure that it doesn't Counter though, or that you're switching in a Ghost-type.

Unless running Perish Song, I normally run Baton Pass over U-turn. U-turn means the Pokemon gets hit by an 80 Base Power Pursuit, and to be honest, Scizor is likely to use Pursuit more often seeing as Celebi is never found with Hidden Power Fire in Ubers, plus it commonly runs Roost so can it afford a misprediction. The damage you do with U-turn is often negligible anyway. The main downside is when facing opposing Perish Song Celebi + Wobbuffet, but you should always switch out ASAP when facing Perish Song Celebi in Ubers anyway.