Wynaut

One year and one day ago, Wynaut was unbanned in UU in accordance with the removal of the "NFE's are automatically put into the same tier as their evolution, unless they have a significant advantage over their evolution." policy. However, it was not unbanned in OU. It was brought up in this PR thread, and the unbanning of Wynaut had considerable support, including that of two admins.

However due to the inconsistency of having a Pokemon banned in a higher tier but not a lower, and the inefficiency of testing which would be the result, it was shut down.

Since every single other Pokemon is now tiered purely on its individual strengths, I propose we remove this last artefact of a now discredited philosophy, and unban Wynaut in OU. If it proves itself strong enough to be put forward as a suspect, then it should be tested and maybe banned. However, Wynaut is so much weaker than Wobbuffet (190/58/58 defensive stats against 95/48/48, and 159 max speed not 181) that results from testing one simply can't be directly transferred to the other.

It's not exactly relevant, but I and many of the people I have spoken to about this suspect that after initial hype wears off, Wynaut is unlikely to hold a place in OU at all, which makes it seem kind of perverse to have it banned.

I strongly support this. Pokemon shouldn't be grandfathered in to any tier, but should exist there solely on their own merit.

Yeah let's do this. I highly doubt Wynaut will be as big of a threat in OU as its big brother Wobbuffet was.

Anybody that knows me knows that I've advocated a Wynaut test, but I've also been on the edge about his placement.

after initial hype wears off, Wynaut is unlikely to hold a place in OU at all, which makes it seem kind of perverse to have it banned.

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That's a horrible claim to make. There is absolutely no supporting evidence and is there to influence others. For Wynaut to do it's job it only needs to take one hit against offense, usually taking place against choiced pokemon. Using X-Act's Defensive EV calculator thing, his most effective spread is 152/204/152 with +SpD, when foregoing speed. Using this, he can come in (though not directly, usually), and cause the end of whatever he's facing. Some calcs:


Now against any other pokemon, these calcs would be satisfying. But Wynaut can countercoat better than anything else thanks to Shadow Tag, making all of the above numbers instead swing in his favor. If he takes out one pokemon, he really has done his job. Best part is that he can take out nearly any pokemon the user chooses, unlike other pokemon which has limited circumstances. Stall has an even larger issues with Wynaut. Without the raw power to strike Wynaut down, he can encore support moves or weak offensive moves and allow another pokemon to set up on the resist, much like Wobbuffet does now in Ubers.

You can call his defensive stats a joke, but he can take his fair share of abuse and it's really his ability that makes him an issue. All of the above cases cannot switch out, messing over a large majority of the pokemon he can come in on. The calcs above are in no sense meant to prove he's broken or likewise, it's to put perspective on the issue. He's not a pushover. So am I opposing a test? Of course not. What I am opposed to is the views that a large majority of users have towards Wynaut's effectiveness and the presentation of the matter at hand.

Veedrock said:

Anybody that knows me knows that I've advocated a Wynaut test, but I've also been on the edge about his placement.

after initial hype wears off, Wynaut is unlikely to hold a place in OU at all, which makes it seem kind of perverse to have it banned.

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That's a horrible claim to make. There is absolutely no supporting evidence and is there to influence others.

competitive arguments said:

<snip>

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So am I opposing a test? Of course not. What I am opposed to is the views that a large majority of users have towards Wynaut's effectiveness and the presentation of the matter at hand.

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Fair enough, that part of the post was unnecessary which is why I specifically stated that it was "not exactly relevant" and that it was only a "suspicion". Nothing more. Maybe it should not have been there at all, but it was not the point or focus of the OP, just a little thing saying how I and many other people think of it competitively. It was not intended to convince anyone, just to give people an idea of the opinion of a sizable number of the public.

I don't know how strong Wynaut will be in OU, or how much use it will get. I and many other people do have a strong suspicion that it will be used much less than any other Pokemon considered a suspect, perhaps little enough for it to fall out of OU (however, we will be sure to limit and remove these pre-conceived biases during any testing), but that is not the reason for this thread or the point of my argument. My argument for unbanning Wynaut comes from purely philosophical grounds, and the apparent lack of a competitive argument for its banning strong enough to ban it without testing.

Veedrock's damage calculations tell me that you're going to sacrifice Wynaut for one of the opponent's Choice users, essentially, since the damage they inflict are too much for Wynaut to do anything else after taking one Pokemon out (unless you're also going to run a Wish Pokemon just to support Wynaut, and a Pursuit Pokemon can easily prevent you from doing this as well). So, at the end of the day, you take out one Choice Pokemon in exchange for Wynaut.

If Wynaut were to be legitimately banned, it would probably be due to Encore rather than due to what Veedrock said. Wynaut's maximum speed of 159 outspeeds neutral base 61 Speed Pokemon with no EVs and lower. Pokemon with such base Speed stats usually deploy their EVs anywhere else. We're basically saying that Wynaut would outspeed these common Pokemon in Standard: Blissey, Bronzong, Dusknoir, Forretress, Hippowdon, Machamp, Snorlax; sometimes also Empoleon, Magnezone and Tyranitar. Now I don't play Standard or anything, but I can visualise instances where a faster Encore against a few of those Pokemon would be deadly. For example, Blissey uses Softboiled as Wynaut switches in, Wynaut uses Encore, fucked up Blissey. I think this is the most deadly aspect of Wynaut, not its ability to kill Choice users.

In fact, from what I recall, that was the reason that it was banned in the first place.

Wobbuffet was banned on the proven idea that "shadow tag + encore = bullshit", and Wynaut is more than capable of doing exactly the same thing to plenty of decent defensive stuff in OU.

I guess the argument can be made that some of these Pokemon can run more Speed, but for half of them running Speed is prohibitively expensive EV-wise.

I wouldn't be especially opposed to testing Wynaut, but I really think that the original intent was solid, and that if "Encore + Shadow Tag" has been deemed broken once, it's not a far cry to say that it will again.

X-Act said:

If Wynaut were to be legitimately banned, it would probably be due to Encore rather than due to what Veedrock said. Wynaut's maximum speed of 159 outspeeds neutral base 61 Speed Pokemon with no EVs and lower. Pokemon with such base Speed stats usually deploy their EVs anywhere else. We're basically saying that Wynaut would outspeed these common Pokemon in Standard: Blissey, Bronzong, Dusknoir, Forretress, Hippowdon, Machamp, Snorlax; sometimes also Empoleon, Magnezone and Tyranitar. Now I don't play Standard or anything, but I can visualise instances where a faster Encore against a few of those Pokemon would be deadly. For example, Blissey uses Softboiled as Wynaut switches in, Wynaut uses Encore, fucked up Blissey. I think this is the most deadly aspect of Wynaut, not its ability to kill Choice users.

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I agree with this, but I think this is overestimating Wynaut's potential. The metagame can adapt to Wynaut. For example, Blissey and Machamp can run 56 Spe EVs to outrun Wynaut. Empoleon, Magnezone and Tyranitar only need 16 EVs. Trying to Encore Forretress is usually a bad idea, as it means Forretress can get more Spikes or Toxic Spikes up. Usage of Pokemon who are vulnerable to Wynaut's Encore like Blissey and Snorlax could drop, or these Pokemon could resort to Shed Shell. If the metagame adapts, Encore will not be as useful (as well as the infamous Encore + Tickle + allied Pursuit user combo). Consequently, Wynaut may not be as gamebreaking as some people predict it will be.

Seven Deadly Sins said:

In fact, from what I recall, that was the reason that it was banned in the first place.

Wobbuffet was banned on the proven idea that "shadow tag + encore = bullshit", and Wynaut is more than capable of doing exactly the same thing to plenty of decent defensive stuff in OU.

I guess the argument can be made that some of these Pokemon can run more Speed, but for half of them running Speed is prohibitively expensive EV-wise.

I wouldn't be especially opposed to testing Wynaut, but I really think that the original intent was solid, and that if "Encore + Shadow Tag" has been deemed broken once, it's not a far cry to say that it will again.

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I dunno. While Encore + Shadow Tag is a lethal combination, it's a lot more broken on Wobbuffet IMO since he can come in and do it several times in the match thanks to his tremendous bulk. Wynaut, especially if he's running max Speed, is going to be taking boatloads of damage if he accidentally switches in on an attack instead of supporting move, meaning that he can only really pull off the strategy once in a match. If the setup after is foiled, Wynaut will have essentially been useless. Wobb can at least come in and try again if it screws up.

There's also quite a risk whenever it's time to bring in Wynaut to Encore. If, for example, he tries coming in on a Curselax, who's likely to use Curse, but decides to Body Slam instead, Wynaut will have failed his job already.

Also, against the pokemon that X-Act mentioned, only Blissey and maybe Hippowdon & Swampert (though Earthquake will still hurt, 2HKOing easily even without Stealth Rock) will be in any serious trouble:

Bronzong: Commonly uses Hypnosis and Trick Room, both of which will make life hard for Wynaut. Not to mention Wynaut is dead if it comes in on Explosion.

Dusknoir: 47.1% carry Shadow Sneak as a Ghost STAB, Wynaut isn't gonna be Encoring this.

Forretress: Is only in trouble if Magnezone is on the opposing team since it's commonly out there to set up Spikes, which are a bad thing to Encore.

Machamp: Wynaut is screwed if Machamp uses Payback on the switch, and the threat of Dynamicpunch is always lingering.

Snorlax: Commonly spams Body Slam to try and paralyze things, and almost always carries Crunch for Ghosts, which it can use if it predicts Wynaut coming in.

Empoleon, Magnezone, Tyranitar: These almost never run min Speed EVs anymore AFAIK.

It just seems to me like running max Speed isn't going to help much, I'd rather pump Wynaut's defenses more (I was using 8/124/124 EVs for Defenses) so he can actually take neutral hits without being 2HKOed. This will at least give him more of a selection of Encore targets rather than limiting it completely to walls.

Just a little extra note: Wynaut has to be especially careful in this offensive metagame due to the large amount of U-turns being churned out by things like Scizor, Gliscor, Flygon, Celebi, Infernape, Jirachi, etc. I'm not sure how well Wynaut would do against offensive teams with stuff like U-turn being common.

In the list of "Blissey, Bronzong, Dusknoir, Forretress, Hippowdon, Machamp, Snorlax; sometimes also Empoleon, Magnezone and Tyranitar", there are a few things to point out. I don't see the problem with running a little extra speed on Blissey or Machamp. Both of their EV spread aren't exactly crucial to their success, and they can easily affor to run 56 Speed EVs. This also goes for Empoleon/Magnezone/Tyranitar, who need almost no investment to outspeed, and most standard sets do already. Bronzong and Forretress can already be trapped by Magnezone. It's easily better for trapping and killing Forretress, because you're not potentially sitting there while it Spikes up on you. Both (imo) do equally well against Bronzong, except that Wynaut cannot really do anything by itself except PP stall until Bronzong struggles if it comes in on SR or Hypnosis or something, but I think that was a shoddy glitch, so it possibly needs a partner to Pursuit Bronzong with. I think it's pretty safe to ignore Dusknoir, who is steadily on the decline, and at worst it could just use Shadow Sneak against Wynaut, making it unable to be countered and bypassing the speed game.

This leaves Hippowdon and Snorlax. Mainly Hippowdon, since it's pretty risky to switch Wynaut into Snorlax using anything other than Curse. Body Slam does 34.4% - 40.9% to 152 HP/204 Def Wynaut (which by the way doesn't outspeed Snorlax with this EV spread). Obviously Crunch and Return do more, and Fire Punch and EQ do less (Fire Punch only doed 20.6% - 24.4%, but since this Wynaut doesn't outspeed Snorlax pre-Curse, it's taking at least 54% before it moves against Lax). Hippowdon does 41.5% - 49.1% with EQ, but it has a lot more moves that Wynaut can come in on safely... again, however, without any Speed Wynaut doesn't outspeed Hippowdon, and if it runs more speed, the calcs become significantly worse (check below for more Lax/Hippo calcs).

Not to mention Veedrock's calculations specifically say Wynaut is foregoing speed. If it *doesn't* forego the speed and opts to go +Spe and 252 (to hit 159), then it gets the following defenses: 369 HP / 183 Def / 183 SpDef (using 8 HP / 124 Def / 124 SpDef / 252 Spe) . The calculations then become:

Obviously a lot more deadly, since most of these are likely/guarenteed OHKOes with SR on the field.


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Here are the other Hippowdon/Snorlax calcs, using the speedy EV spread, which outspeeds them. The Snorlax calcs are a little redundant but whatever.

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs 8/124 Wynaut: 51.4% - 60.7%
Curse Snorlax Fire Punch vs 8/124 Wynaut: 25.5% - 30%
Snorlax Earthquake vs 8/124 Wynaut: 33.9% - 39.9%
Snorlax Body Slam vs 8/124 Wynaut: 43.2% - 51.4%
Snorlax Return vs 8/124 Wynaut: 51.7% - 61.3%
Snorlax Crunch vs 8/124 Wynaut: 54.1% - 64.3%

Only the first two Snorlax calcs are really safe for Wynaut to switch into. This will only give Wynaut "two" safe moves to come in on (though possibly three in some cases) on Snorlax. Wynaut can come in on anything besides EQ on Hippo, but it's not exactly a guarenteed way to take out Hippowdon.



tl;dr- what Bologo said. His first paragraph sums it up pretty well. Wynaut lacks both the bulk and the crucial speed points to do his job.

Lets take a more detailed look at what Wynaut could outspeed and Encore in OU.

OU Pokemon that Wynaut can outspeed / how many Speed EVs they need to avoid this:
Pokemon who often (by the latest stats) run a non offensive move and are viable targets are underlined.

Tyranitar / 8
Dragon Dance is on 36%, but those run plenty of Speed for Encore to not be an issue (and Crunch is going to blow Wynaut away). LeadTar could have some problems, but 8 EVs is tiny. Boah is outsped, and could have problems if Wynaut comes in on a Substitute, but switching a Psychic type with 48 base Def into Tyranitar is an insane prediction.

Magnezone / 16
45% of Magnezone run Substitute, they run 84 Speed anyway.

Swampert / 16
70% of Swampert run SR and few have speed, but only a minor EV change is required to avoid this problem. Dropping 4 points from HP or Def will rarely make a difference.

Empoleon / 16
45% of Empoleon run Substitute and 23% run SR, but a vast majority use more than 16 Speed already.

Blissey / 56
Blissey would likely be the most common target of this strategy (unless it invests in Speed) as it has low offensive power and often uses non threatening moves. Thunder Wave or Toxic would cause Wynaut annoyance at least, but it should normally be able to Tickle Blissey 6 times or stall it out of Softboiled PP. 56 EVs is a noticeable loss, but only 14 points which would cause less than a 4% drop in its ability to take Special hits if taken from SpD. Compare that to over 40% of Skarmory declining 6% recovery per turn to avoid Magnezone death, and it seems insignificant.

Machamp / 16
27% of Machamp run Substitute. Others have some problems, but even with the resist Wy takes 38.3% - 45.2% from DynamicPunch (without CB) and there is confusion on your side.

-Speed Swampert / 80
Relaxed MixPert does have a problem with Wynaut, but if it uses EQ rather than SR it will deal a hefty 50% - 59% and can force Wynaut into a prediction war with Ice Beam (which deals 24.1% - 28.6%, so two EQs and an Ice Beam either KO or leave Wynaut as death fodder).

Hippowdon / 120
Another Pokemon that has problems with Wynaut, but again its Earthquake deals a solid chunk of damage (50.6% - 59.6%), so Wynaut is not going to be happy if it comes into the wrong move. Still a decent target.

Dusknoir / 136
Would be a great target if it was not for:
| Dusknoir | Move | Shadow Sneak | 47.1 |
and the fact that it is immune to Counter. A Wynaut switching into Duskull has a high chance of either being able to do nothing thanks to Shadow Sneak (other than encore a STAB SE move) or coming onto an offensive move it can't even Counter. The best that could be hoped for would be to waste Pain Split or W-o-W PP.

Bronzong can't outspeed with just an EV change.
Wynaut would love switching in on the screens or SR from Bronzong, but the chance of Hypnosis, Trick Room, Trick (with an "always go last" item), or Explosion make it risky. Can trap and Counter to death Bronzong Encored into EQ/Gyro Ball.

Forretress can't outspeed with just an EV change.
Another prime target for Wynaut, any move but Explosion will give Wynaut a free run. However, if Encored into using a multi layer type of Spikes it will be fully laid which somewhat compensates the player who lost Forry. Also, 27% already run Shed Shell for Magnezone which could let a player get 3 layers up, then switch out for free!

Snorlax
Snorlax can do solid damage with it's STAB attacks:
Body Slam: 42.5% - 50% with no Atk, 86.7% - 102.1% with max Atk and CB
Return: 50.9% - 59.9% with no Atk, 103.9% - 122.3% with max Atk and CB
Curse/Rest Snorlax (just over 50%) would have major trouble if Wynaut comes in on the right move.

Also, for comparison since there was some testing done in UU here is a list of UU Pokemon that Wynaut can outspeed: Clefable, Weezing, Torterra, Omastar, Aggron, Azumarill, Chansey, Donphan, Hariyama, Regirock, Registeel, Tangrowth, Rhyperior, Spiritomb, Slowbro, Steelix.

There are a significant number of Pokemon who the Encore/Trap combo could be effective against, however against almost all of them it is far from risk free. It can still do the same thing as Wobbuffet, but to far fewer Pokemon (No Speed Breloom, Metagross, Skarmory, Scizor, and Vaporeon sit between 159 and 181, and the rest have to invest 88 less EVs in order to outspeed it) and importantly with much greater risk. Yes Wynaut is not going to be 1KOed by much, but it can't shake off STAB attacks and Counter/MC back comfortably if it comes into the wrong move. Every Pokemon above other than Blissey who would usually use a non offensive move (and so be a target for Encore) can either deal 50% or more damage, get a free full set of Spikes/Toxic Spikes, threaten with Explosion, or use frustrating non direct offence move.

It's worth noting that freely removing Pokemon, or blocking the option to escape, under specific conditions is nothing new, Dugtrio, Magnezone and the Pursuiters (most notably Tyranitar) can all KO Pokemon which the owner would like very much to switch out. Those tend to do better against frail Pokemon, those with weaknesses to Ground, Electric, or Dark respectively, or those at low health. Wynaut (with the Encore/Shadow Tag combo at least) would seem likely to do better against very slow Pokemon using a move which does no damage.

Edit: and Bologo said much of this while I wrote/ate. Should've refreshed to check for new posts.

I would like to note that I said "if Wynaut were to be legitimately banned, it would probably be due to Encore". That implies that it still needs to be legitimately banned, and, as such, I would support a test.

There's no point for me or us to use theorymon to ban a Pokemon; rather, I much prefer a Pokemon to be banned legitimately. If theorymon turns out to be correct, then ban it. I think that Wynaut's banning is definitely not as clear-cut as, say, Kyogre's, Mewtwo's, or, indeed, Wobbuffet's, and hence it wouldn't hurt to make him a suspect and test it like we did with Garchomp, Lati@s and friends.