Finneon

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/finneon

hello QC. its me again. ive been dabbling in LC a little bit and I was on the search for a pokemon with u-turn that could lure in water-types and there didnt seem to be one! I remember seeing Lumineon had access to this move so I was like *lightbulb* and decided to use Finneon.

Approved 3/3
Rejected 3/3
GP Checks 2/2



[Overview]

<p>Even by Little Cup standards, Finneon seems like a below-average Pokemon. However, it can fill a very useful role, thanks to a very useful move rare among Water-types, U-turn. While it does not have the same raw power that Gligar and others have, U-turn allows it to perform a bait on switch which often will lure in Water-types.</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive Fish
move1: U-turn
move2: Waterfall
move3: Return
move4: Ice Beam / Surf
nature: Jolly
ability: Swift Swim
item: Choice Scarf / Life Orb
evs: 204 Atk / 44 SpA / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Finneon is often overlooked in favor of other physical Water-types like Omanyte and Kabuto, but thanks to its access to U-turn, it is able to scout teams and help you gain an advantage early on or turn the tide late-game. The main goal of this set is to lure in Mantyke and Chinchou; once they come in, Finneon can act as a pivot to a counter like Elekid or Diglett. The moveset is fairly straightforward; much like Choice Band Scizor in OU, U-turn should be your primary move. Waterfall is a strong STAB move and Return offers pretty nice coverage alongside it. Surf or Ice Beam is the best move in the last slot, depending on your preference, as they fulfill different purposes. Ice Beam can take out opponents like Shroomish and will OHKO Gligar, but Surf is good for scoring bigger hits on more durable physical opponents and will do more to Bronzor.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A Jolly nature will give Finneon 17 Speed without a Choice Scarf and 25 Speed with a Choice Scarf. The given EVs ensure an OHKO on Gligar with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock damage, provided Finneon is holding a Life Orb, as well as OHKOing Rock Polish Aron with Surf. Also, Waterfall will 2HKO standard Munchlax and U-turn will reach its maximum damage output. With the given EVs, U-turn will do around 50% to Shroomish with the given EVs.</p>

<p>The choice between Life Orb and Choice Scarf is entirely up to the user, depending on how you wish to use Finneon. A Choice Scarf will allow you to outpace other common Choice Scarf users such as Mankey and Carvanha, as well as Rock Polish Aron after a boost. However, forgoing a Life Orb will mean Finneon misses out on some vital 2HKOs on Pokemon such as Shroomish.</p>

<p>Obvious partners are for this set are Diglett and Elekid due to their ability to take out opposing Water-types. Other partners that pair well are Grass-types, particularly Shroomish for its ability to force out Water-types and start SubSeeding your opponent to death. Water-types on your team will also benefit from Finneon's ability to help lure and eliminate opposing Water-types, as do Fire-types. Wynaut can defeat this set with relative ease, assuming that Finneon is already locked in a move. Finneon is also rather frail, so most priority moves will take quite a chunk out of it. Faster Choice Scarf users are also a problem for Finneon since it has no form of priority to take them out.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Due to its scouting ability and potential to force switches, Stealth Rock will be a great asset to any team utilizing this Finneon. Spikes support is also excellent with this set; unfortunately, viable Spikers in Little Cup are few and far between. Omanyte is one of the few viable Spikers available, and it also has access to Stealth Rock and a decent offensive and support movepool. Beware of the shared Water-typing with Finneon, however, since this doubles similar weaknesses on your team.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Unfortunately, Finneon doesn't have many other options. Its somewhat decent movepool is ultimately let down by Finneon's poor stats. Aqua Tail is a viable option over Waterfall if you really want that 10 extra Base Power. Psybeam can be used to hit Croagunk for 4x super effective damage. Charm can also be used to force switches, as can Sweet Kiss, but they are both essentially gimmick options. Finneon does get Rain Dance, and so can fit on a Rain Dance team, but there are better users of Rain Dance in Little Cup.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Any strong priority move can knock out Finneon before it has a chance to do damage. If you are running a Life Orb, most Choice Scarf users will outpace you and be able to take you out. Entry hazards will wear Finneon down quickly. Snover can take Finneon's STAB moves and brings with it hail to do more residual damage and further wear down Finneon. Wynaut can trap and remove Choice Scarf variants that are locked into a move other than U-turn.</p>


edit: also if the title is wrong (I was unsure of what to put) could a mod fix it to have the right title? thanks in advance. so

Not exactly a great fan of this set when there are other viable offensive Scarf Pokemon. This set is only effective against luring in Chinchou + diggy I suppose, but it is pretty much situational and Finny becomes dead weight somewhat after that due to the low Attack stat and low Defensive stat on both ends. It doesn't have the defenses to constantly switch in and out and inflict weak U-turns. If it does need to attack, its damage output is quite lackluster.

edit: ice beam is a nice slash on this set over surf to smack grass and gligar harder.

it gets u-turn i guess but if this turns into an analysis, i want to see about other sets, finneon also gets charm, sweet kiss, bounce, payback, silver wind, ominous wind, tailwind, agility, blizzard, ice beam, hidden power, etc. i dunno how successful any combination of those will be but its something to explore in the mean time (im thinking entry hazards + charm/u-turn to keep forcing switches, as well as a special set, and maybe a support set with charm/tailwind/u-turn/waterfall)

Alan said:

-great to lure in "bulky" waters in UU, especially chinchou

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I suppose you mean LC... right?

franky said:

Not exactly a great fan of this set when there are other viable offensive Scarf Pokemon. This set is only effective against luring in Chinchou + diggy I suppose, but it is pretty much situational and Finny becomes dead weight somewhat after that due to the low Attack stat and low Defensive stat on both ends. It doesn't have the defenses to constantly switch in and out and inflict weak U-turns. If it does need to attack, its damage output is quite lackluster.

edit: ice beam is a nice slash on this set over surf to smack grass and gligar harder.

Click to expand...

yeah, i suppose. i'll try it out. i realize its rather weak but its niche usage is rather good.

kd24 said:

it gets u-turn i guess but if this turns into an analysis, i want to see about other sets, finneon also gets charm, sweet kiss, bounce, payback, silver wind, ominous wind, tailwind, agility, blizzard, ice beam, hidden power, etc. i dunno how successful any combination of those will be but its something to explore in the mean time (im thinking entry hazards + charm/u-turn to keep forcing switches, as well as a special set, and maybe a support set with charm/tailwind/u-turn/waterfall)

Click to expand...

i'll try to come up with something for all those. X__X I wasn't planning on doing a full analysis but then i realized "oh shit it doesn't have other sets on site", so i guess i kinda got stuck with it. :(

Bluewind said:

I suppose you mean LC... right?

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oof. fixed that blunder.

bumping this. i theorymonned a set i think could be viable. im going to test it some on CAP tonight/this weekend. If anyone wants to make suggestions for it, this is it

[SET]
name: Swift Swimmer (or Rain Dancer? What sounds better?)
move1: Rain Dance
move2: Surf
move3: Ice Beam
move4: Hidden Power Grass / Psybeam / Hidden Power Electric
nature: Timid
ability: Swift Swim
item: Damp Rock / Life Orb
evs: 44 HP / 204 SpA / 28 SpD / 228 Spe

why this set deserves to be on site
-with timid nature reaches 34 speed in the rain, outsped only by 11 pokemon in the teir, speed tying with 5 of those 11
-surf is for obligatory stab move, great coverage and power boost in rain, unfortunately it doesnt get hydro pump :(, ice beam takes out grass types and hits gligar for 4x damage
-hidden power grass will hit the majority of water types for super effective, hidden power electric will always OHKO offensive mantykes, after stealth rock damage, and psybeam will allow you to take out croagunk

additional comments
-modest nature can be run, but you will only reach 32 speed in the rain, allowing you to be outsped by a few more pokemon
-hp and spdef ev's give it a little more staying power against neutral hits (honestly just filler EVs)
-if running a hidden power in the last slot, run 208 SpA EVs, to get maximum power
-damp rock elongates the rain, allowing for other pokemon to benefit from it, as well as boosting your speed longer; conversely, life orb allows for higher damage output across the board

teammates and counters
-pairs well with diglett who can take out chincho, who otherwise counters this set
-also works well with croagunk and paras who gain hp from the rain, allowing them to set up easier
-chinchou, and munchlax are garunteed counters; without hidden power electric, mantyke can take on this set as well
-snover can also come in on this set and fears no attack as well as cutting out your speed boost with its snow warning ability
-without psybeam, toxicroak can come in fairly easily







ok guys, right now that set is just in the theorymon stage, so tear it apart with critiques and suggestions. :) if anyone wants to test this because they have more time/are better at little cup (neither of which are hard im sure) that would help out a lot. -bats eyes at vader and dubulous and others-


Also, if I drop off in activity in the next couple of days, its because i am going to be working and/or out of town on vacation.

okay, so really all finneon can do it the set in the OP. everything else i have tried is somewhere in between the range of fucking terrible and are you shitting me? even with rain boost surf hits like a girl. life orb is the only item worth having (unless its on a rain themed team). I didnt test the rain dance set on a an actual rain dance team, but when i did it stand alone, it was pitiful.

so with that i guess i am just bumping this to ask people to stamp it or tell me to go test more sets that may/not work.

ice beam takes out grass types and hits gligar for 4x damage

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Surf in the Rain will do more to Gligar if I'm not mistaken

bump

updated OP with paragraphs and shit. waiting for QC still. :)

edit; i probably put evolved mon's names but i meant their unevolved forms. if i did that just lemme know im really used to standard lol :(

The main goal of this set is to lure in Mantyke and Chinchou and switch in a counter such as Elekid or Diglett, respectively.

Dugtrio doesn't exist in this metagame.

bump ;-;

finneon's problem is it is mostly outclassed by other swift swim pokemon. the one niche it has that I can think of is it is the only swift swimmer with u-turn, so I think finneon might warrant a lead set along the lines of rain dance/u-turn/waterfall/filler @ damp rock to get in something like omantye or buizel with seven turns of rain to play with

The problem with that set, Kannon, is that I would never, ever use that over Voltorb. In UU, Uxie is a good rain starter over Electrode because it has support options other than Rain Dance and U-turn (like, Stealth Rock) and it can take hits and not die. Finneon dies to...ALL of the top ten leads minus Hippopotas, Gastly, and Abra (which is all of the top five). It does not take hits. It sets up rain dance and dies to priority, or gets Fake Out-ed and is outsped and killed.

Point is, Voltorb is a very better lead than Finneon.

looks like none of my ideas worked, congrats on first stamp

It isn't horrible, and it's got U-turn over Remoraid so here's a stamp.

The format for this is very wrong. There is no Teammate and Counter section and Other Options is Optional Changes.

need gp checks pls and thx 2(o)____(o)2

<breloom> FUK FATECRASHERS
<Fatecrashers> ;_;
:naughty:

GP CHECK 1/2

Deletions
Additions



Lots of obvious mistakes here unfortunately, I also tightened up the prose a bit and remedied some repetitive parts.

fake log

also update, thx

Fin Fin

GP Check [2/2]

REMOVE
ADD
COMMENT



You were a little shoddy at implementing Fatecrasher's GP check (ie. the random half-sentences floating around and uncorrected exceptions) so I'm going to withold the stamp until changes are implemented.

p.s. this is done. i think it just needs one quick last look or something.

Try to be more careful in implementing grammar checks in the future. There were about five instances where a space was missing, and that stuff won't happen if you go through them carefully. Just something to build on for the future.