Machamp Bulk Up/Rest Talker

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McNUTTY

McNUTTY

I didn't see a set like this in the analysis and i have been trying to test this. it works rather well as a late game victory condition much like Suicune and a status absorber. This is my first try at an analysis so any pointers would be great.

[SET]
Name: Bulk Up Rest Talker (need better name Probably its a bit of a mouthful.
move 1: Dynamic Punch
move 2: Bulk Up
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
Nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP 16 Att 240 SpD (ev's probably can be changed, but this set help with set up)
Ability: No Guard

Why this Set Deserves to be on site:
-Reliable status absorber much like the Machamp normal rest-talk set
-Sets up a Slow but powerful Dynamic Punch that when at +6 non immunes aren't going to like.
-Works like Suicune, the lack of bulk is some what mitigated by Dynamic Punches confusion rate and Fighting Types uncommon weakness's (Flying is rarely seen and Psychic is not common either.)
-sets up easily on its quite good set of resistances to Bug, Rock and Dark.
-there are other similar sets on site, but they either use Rest Talk or Bulk Up not Both

Additional Comments
-Brick Break and Guts could be used but it has huge issues setting up due to no confusion from Dynamic Punch.

Teammates
-A Pursuit user is a MUST when using this set as you will be walled all day long by Ghosts Like Rotom if you don't remove them. They Can also Remove Psychic Types like Starmie and Celebi as they could carry Psychic type moves which wreak this strategy. Scarf or Band Scizor and Tyranitar make excellent choices to do this as they can both come in on Psychic Moves, Machamp also takes Status for them Especially Burns.
-A mixed or Wall breaking parter can help weaken walls like Swampert so that Machamp could spend more time attacking rather than setting up. Infernape does a good job at this as it can run so many different sets the opponent will have to find a reliable counter or take a solid hit weakening the enemy team. Machamp again can take Status.
-Stealth Rock helps heaps as you are now looking at 2HKOing Rest Talk Gyarados at +4. This is a stall teams best hope against this set.

Counters
-GHOSTS! they are immune to the only attack on the set so they will indefinitely wall this set.
-Roarers, they stop this set easily, especially when it is only at +1 or +2
-Taunters Stop this set Cold, Skarmory does this excellently.
-Heavy Hitting Special Attackers like Starmie or Jirachi destroy the average Special Defense of Machamp.
-Zapdos walks all over this set with Roost and Pressure.

Thanks Guys in advance =)
 
i think it was in the analysis but we took it out and having a mono attack that some pokemon have immunity to is def a no go
 
Mono-attack fighting Pokemon are obviously flawed from the start, as you mentioned

I just see this in particular, being flawed, due Pokemon with the Pressure ability, such as Zapdos. It can Stall out your 4 DPs, and once you're out of DynamicPunch PP, Sleep Talk will not select it anymore, so this doesn't exactly fix the problem. (I'm not sure this is mentioned on the Sleep Talk page) The Subroost set walks alll over this.

Other than that, quite a few Pokemon easily (well somewhat due to confusion hax) stop this set, like RestTalk/Roar Gyarados, Starmie, Celebi, Skarmory, etc.

though we'll see what the QC says when/if this is moved there

EDIT: Really? Thanks for clearing that up then, I could have sworn ^^;
subroost still does p well at countering it, I suppose
 
i think it was in the analysis but we took it out and having a mono attack that some pokemon have immunity to is def a no go
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yes that is definitely an issue, but it is rather easy to remove most ghosts, especially to Scarf-Tar/Scizor running around in the metagame now days.
Mono-attack fighting Pokemon are obviously flawed from the start, as you mentioned

I just see this in particular, being flawed, due Pokemon with the Pressure ability, such as Zapdos. It can Stall out your 4 DPs, and once you're out of DynamicPunch PP, Sleep Talk will not select it anymore, so this doesn't exactly fix the problem. (I'm not sure this is mentioned on the Sleep Talk page) The Subroost set walks alll over this.

Other than that, quite a few Pokemon easily (well somewhat due to confusion hax) stop this set, like RestTalk/Roar Gyarados, Starmie, Celebi, Skarmory, etc.

though we'll see what the QC says when/if this is moved there
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Well hopefully by that stage in the game some of these threats are weakened. some do have recovery, but that is when you can boost up more. I will add Zapdos as a counter though, it does destroy this set (you need to be at +6 to 2HKO it)
Thanks for the criticism so far guys.
 
at first glance this set seems pretty bad since there are two commonly used ou pokemon that it cannot touch. it does have a few perks though - bulk up means machamp doesn't necessarily lose to gyarados and dragonite and even gliscor, while the special bulk means defensive zapdos cannot 3hko.

but when it's compared to the standard bulk up set (and not just 4 attacks or whatever), this looks pretty bad; taking a little less damage from zapdos doesn't matter all that much, especially since zapdos has pressure (and possibly substitute which gets it free turns 2/3 times on sleep talk) and you could just be running stone edge or ice punch instead of rest/sleep talk. if you bulk up on the switch, standard bulk up machamp beats gyarados, gliscor, and dragonite just as much as this set does. the only tangible benefit that this set has is that it can be harder to wear down with sacrifices due to recovery, but the "pokemon are immune to your only stab" issue is probably more important (this pokemon looks like a red carpet for subsplit gengar to come in and wreck your team...)

seems like it could come in handy against some defensively oriented teams if you give it pursuit support, but is probably not reliable enough in general for an analysis.

Ivysaur said:
I just see this in particular, being flawed, due Pokemon with the Pressure ability, such as Zapdos. It can Stall out your 4 DPs, and once you're out of DynamicPunch PP, Sleep Talk will not select it anymore, so this doesn't exactly fix the problem. (I'm not sure this is mentioned on the Sleep Talk page) The Subroost set walks alll over this.
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the on-site description is actually wrong about this.
 
Biggest thing going against this set is Dynamicpunch's horrible PP. Ghost immunity isn't that bad at all since that just requires pursuit support. But something like Zapdos completely shuts this set down with Pressure.
 
Biggest thing going against this set is Dynamicpunch's horrible PP. Ghost immunity isn't that bad at all since that just requires pursuit support. But something like Zapdos completely shuts this set down with Pressure.
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Yes the PP is definitely an issue, but i think it was proven that Sleep Talk still selects moves with no PP, but then again don't quote me on it.
Zapdos runs all over this set but when you look at how often it is used, 27th with a percentage of 7.73 it isn't at all common, except maybe on stall teams which are still going to take huge punishment due to the sheer force of Machamps hits.
 
Ugh, you're going to have to switch out every time Rotom comes out, so you'll have to eliminate him before you set up. Not only this, but your only attack has atrocious PP.
 
I tried and tested this out, but with Guts and Low Kick. I paired it with a Lum Tyranitar to beat ghosts and it's actually a pretty neat set. It gets to 6 Bulk ups easily on shit like vaporeon, and when its asleep it actually hits pretty hard. I really think the Guts + Low Kick combo is better than Dynamicpunch because Low Kick has better PP. It also beats light opponents like Vappy. (Low Kick 2HKOs.) Tauntless Gliscor (ya rare) loses to this. It's also pretty annoying to face overall, but id does give Gengar and Rotom free set up so pairing it with something that can easily take them on is obviously vital.
 
I tried and tested this out, but with Guts and Low Kick. I paired it with a Lum Tyranitar to beat ghosts and it's actually a pretty neat set. It gets to 6 Bulk ups easily on shit like vaporeon, and when its asleep it actually hits pretty hard. I really think the Guts + Low Kick combo is better than Dynamicpunch because Low Kick has better PP. It also beats light opponents like Vappy. (Low Kick 2HKOs.) Tauntless Gliscor (ya rare) loses to this. It's also pretty annoying to face overall, but id does give Gengar and Rotom free set up so pairing it with something that can easily take them on is obviously vital.
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Is it just worth while slashing these 2 changes or should the set be changed, because after my few tests (very limited due to school work atm) it worked just as well or better, low kick for PP and solid strength and guts for a power boost. I like Dynamic Punches confusion rate it really helps setting up late game. Ideas guys and the name too it is a mouthful?
 
I tried and tested this out, but with Guts and Low Kick.
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Ehhhh... Theres really no advantage to using it with Guts over Heracross or Hariyama, which i feel like I mentioned before.

In other ideas, the set on my sig does a good job of accomplishing what this is trying to accomplish
 
Mono-attacking with a move that only has 8 PP? If you look at other mono-attackers (Swampert, Spiritomb, Suicune, even Cradily), their moves have at least double the PP that Dynamicpunch has. Low Kick with guts would be better for this kind of set but then it would have to compete with Heracross and Hariyama (better move in megahorn or better bulk).
 
Mono-attacking with a move that only has 8 PP? If you look at other mono-attackers (Swampert, Spiritomb, Suicune, even Cradily), their moves have at least double the PP that Dynamicpunch has. Low Kick with guts would be better for this kind of set but then it would have to compete with Heracross and Hariyama (better move in megahorn or better bulk).
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Dynamic Punch can also be selected by sleep talk, why do people forget that this gives you up to 6-7 PP extra, and besides those poekmon aren't using their attacks of such a high base stat like Machamp, who sits at base 130 attack much more threatening than something like Suicune who sits at base 75.
And competing with Heracross and Hariyama. Not really Heracross is hardy used as is, and Hariyama rarely makes an apperance in OU so i don't see them as competing for a spot in a team.
 
McNUTTY said:
Dynamic Punch can also be selected by sleep talk, why do people forget that this gives you up to 6-7 PP extra
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Those 6-7 extra DPs might somewhat offset the PP, but they aren't very reliable and quite possibly may not be enough in the still-present faces of multiple fighting resists and immunities. Imagine trying to get through a team with Gliscor and Gyarados.


McNUTTY said:
Machamp, who sits at base 130 attack much more threatening than something like Suicune who sits at base 75.
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Suicune has 90 base Special Attack and 75 base Attack.

Who uses physical Suicune?


McNUTTY said:
And competing with Heracross and Hariyama. Not really Heracross is hardy used as is, and Hariyama rarely makes an apperance in OU so i don't see them as competing for a spot in a team.
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It's not about them competing for a spot on a team in this case, it's about outclassing this particular Machamp on attack options and bulk. The overall usage of Heracross and Hariyama have little to do with this Machamp set.
 
I personally think there are two flaws in this set:

1. Ghost is immune to fighting, making Rotom/Gengar walk all over this set.

2. Dpunch only has 8 PP. 4 if you're being pressure stalled, which in that case you're doomed.

The best is probably Lum Tyranitar (partner). Its completely laughed at by physically defensive Zapdos, who can just whirlwind you away.
 
I recall that we had a similar set on-site, though we decided to remove it in one of QC's rounds. The major problem that I see in this set is the considerably low PP number that Dynamic Punch has, plus the fact that mono-type coverage is far from being a good "strategy" in today's metagame. Furthermore, top-tier Pokemon such as Gengar and Rotom-A have no problems setting up on this Machamp. They can then proceed to wreak havoc on your team. In a nutshell, while it's true that this set can cause a lot of troubles to several Pokemon and teams, it is a fact as well that its usefulness and effectiveness are limited -- in my opinion, limited enough to not deserve its own analysis on-site.

QC REJECTED (1/3)
 
I have to agree with the general consensus here. PP is a major issue with Dynamicpunch. You could say having Sleep Talk makes better use of its PP, but once you are running low you will have to rely on Resting to use it. And like others have said, mono-coverage is not so hot right now. This is just asking for Rotom-A or Gengar to switch in, both of which can do tear a team in half. Bulk Up works much better with Rest and two attacks. The bulk you gain from boosting helps keep you alive while you wait and then you don't make yourself vulnerable to dangerous threats. A set that has limited use and requires major threats to be removed for it to have a chance of working isn't worthwhile.
 
I'm not sold on the effectiveness of mono attackers. DynamicPunch has terrible PP, and the set is walled by ghosts. One merit of restalk machamp is dealing with ghosts better, and this seems to defeat that purpose. Apart from that, setsuna is correct regarding limited effectiveness.

QC REJECTED (3/3)
 
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