Magmortar (OU Attacking Lead)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/magmortar

I recently made this lead a few days ago while looking for a competent, unique lead for my OU team. After testing it out on several opponents, it has worked out very nicely on everything it has supposed to, catching many leads like Jirachi, Aerodactyl, and Swampert off guard.

[Overview]

The main benefit of this Magmortar set in OU is surprise factor, and with a good movepool, decent bulk and a sky high Special attack stat, knowing what Magmortar is going to do in the lead spot is very tricky, especially for those who only play OU and who aren't familiar with it.

This lead will win out over quite a few common leads in the OU metagame. Even leads that Magmortar has trouble against, like Metagross and Hippowdon, can still be taken out with good prediction, as well as the surprise factor this set brings, especially if the opponent prioritizes getting up Stealth Rock over attacking.


[SET]

name: OU Attacking Lead
move 1: Overheat
move 2: Mach Punch
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Hidden Power Grass
item: Expert Belt
ability: Flame Body
nature: Rash
Evs: 20 Atk / 52 Def / 252 SpA / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With Magmortar's huge special attack stat, priority move in Mach Punch, and access to powerful moves like Overheat and Thunderbolt, he can catch common OU leads off guard with the sheer damage his attacks can dish out. STAB Overheat coming off of a 383 special attack stat is no joke. It will OHKO lead Jirachi and will bring frail leads like Azelf down to its sash, while Azelf and Jirachi can never OHKO Magmortar with any of their attacks. With the given EV's, Magmortar can always survive lead Jolly Aerodactyl's Earthquake and hit it down to its sash with Thunderbolt. It can also survive a Fake-Out and Close Combat combo from the standard lead Infernape, and then 2HKO with a Thunderbolt and Mach Punch combo after the defense drops from Close Combat are factored in. Mach Punch is an often overlooked move in Magmortar's arsenal, and although it is very weak, it will catch the opponent off guard after a strong attack and net you kills on the threats mentioned above.

<p>Slow, bulky leads aren't completely safe from Magmortar either. Hidden Power Grass OHKO's the standard Swampert lead after factoring in the boost from Expert Belt. Standard lead Metagross, even with Occa Berry, has a chance to be OHKO'd by Magmortar's Overheat. Magmortar can also 2HKO lead Hippowdon with HP Grass, but taking on Hippowdon and Metagross can be quite risky if they choose to attack instead of setting up Stealth Rock, as Magmortar will be OHKO'd by Earthquake.

[Additional Comments]

<p>The EV's are pretty self explanatory. As stated earlier, 52 EV's in defense will allow Magmortar to survive attacks from leads such as Infernape and Aerodactyl. 184 speed EV's are more for late game purposes, as it will allow you to outspeed and OHKO bulky Gyarados before a Dragon Dance, as well as outspeed many bulky Celebi, Jarachi, Shaymin and Dragonite variants. Special attack should always be maxed for obvious reasons, and the rest of the EV's are dumped into attack to help Mach Punch hit a tiny bit harder late game against threats such as Weavile, or other fast foes that are at dangerously low health and need to be finished off.

[Team Options]

<p>There are a few leads Magmortar can do almost nothing against, such as Tyranitar and Gliscor, and thus it is advisable to have a backup pokemon to switch into to take the potential Earthquakes aimed at Magmortar. Skarmory and Gyarados work well with Magmortar, as they can switch in on predicted Earthquakes, but one must be wary of Stone Edge from Tyranitar when switching in Gyarados.

<p>Having Rapid Spin support will greatly improve Magmortar's usefulness later on in the match, as it is stripped of 25% of its health every time it switches in on Stealth Rock.

[Optional Changes]

<p>Fire Blast can be used over Overheat if you don't like the special attack drop, but then you lose the chance of OHKO'ing Occa Berry Metagross. Fire Blast is also slightly less accurate, and making sure Magmortar's attacks hit is crucial in the lead spot.

<p>Hidden Power Ice can be used over Grass to take out the rare Dragonite lead, as well as to nail Dragonite and Flygon on the switch later on in the game. Swampert leads are much more common though, and without HP Grass you can't really do anything to the standard Swampert.

<p>Shuca Berry is a viable option to survive Earthquakes from the likes of Hippowdon, Gliscor, Tyanitar and Metagross leads, but then you lose the power to definitively OHKO Swampert and potentially OHKO Metagross. If you use Hidden Power Ice instead of Grass, you can reliably take out Gliscor leads with Shuca Berry though.

[Counters]

<p>As previously mentioned, lead Tyranitar and Gliscor can take anything Magmortar has and OHKO it with Earthquake. Lead Empoleon can take a Thunderbolt and hit back with a super effective water attack to take out Magmortar. Heatran and Blissey wall this set outside of the lead spot, and Starmie will always outspeed and kill Magmortar with Surf or Hydro Pump.

<p>Machamp can take an Overheat and hit Magmortar with a Stone Edge, OHKOing it. Roserade is usually faster than Magmortar and can put it to sleep before it gets hit with an Overheat, but in the off chance that Sleep Powder misses, Magmortar will make quick work of lead Roserades with Overheat and Mach Punch.

Remember, put in a link to smogons magmortar page. To put one in, just click the earth with the paper clip.

Also, I like this. You're just forgetting stone edge from tyranitar and aerodactyl.

Done. :)

I find that leads that have access to EQ and Stone Edge will almost always go for the EQ on Magmortar as its not worth the risk of missing. Most Aerodactyl won't attack anyway though and will set up SR, and some have even taunted by Magmortar lead thinking it was some kind of Substitute/Belly Drum variant. :P

Moved thread to its correct subforum.

Next time please read This thread before posting. Thank you.

I've noted that people say it's stupid to use NU in OU, but I think otherwise. OU pokemon are trained to handle other OU pokemon, so they won't have much plans for magmortar, is how I think of it.

.....And once I think about it, I would use earthquake on magmortar in that position too.

Can you explain why I would use this set over Infernape? Seeing as LeadApe can break sashes with Fake Out, set up rocks, and reliably take on Heatran and Tyranitar as well as most of the leads you've mentioned in your analysis.

I know I'm not a QC guy, but I'll post anyway.

The biggest issues I have is that it looks like a terrible lead. It falls to Sleep Powder from Roserade then Roserade gets a free switch-out. It also doesn't stop Stealth Rock at all, so now we degrade to something worse than that. I'm also with Fatecrashers in that I wouldn't use this lead over Infernape.

This set, however, has actually been introduced to me before, but not as a lead. There are still major issues with it though since Stealth Rock and Sandstorm damage adds up very quickly. IIRC he used Cross Chop instead of Hidden Power or ditched Mach Punch. Magmortar has that terrible sin of being slow, being weak to Stealth Rock, and not very bulky at all, which makes it a questionable mixed attacker over, say, Infernape even.

Fatecrashers said:

Can you explain why I would use this set over Infernape? Seeing as LeadApe can break sashes with Fake Out, set up rocks, and reliably take on Heatran and Tyranitar as well as most of the leads you've mentioned in your analysis.

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Well, I think this is a good idea because of this:

Infernape probably couldn't take an aerodactyl's earthquake, and has lower base speed.

Any way, NU in OU is just cool.

But hey, I'm not the one who made this. I couldn't tell you what he/she was thinking.

Fatecrashers said:

Can you explain why I would use this set over Infernape? Seeing as LeadApe can break sashes with Fake Out, set up rocks, and reliably take on Heatran and Tyranitar as well as most of the leads you've mentioned in your analysis.

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There are several reasons:

-LeadApe loses to Crobat leads thanks to Crobat's Inner Focus while Magmortar OHKO's it with Thunderbolt, unless it U-Turns.

-LeadApe can't OHKO Swampert with Grass Knot, and Swampert will either get up SR or break Infernape's Sash, rendering it pretty useless. Magmortar outspeeds and OHKO's Swampert; no rocks, no damage.

-Magmortar has the ability to outspeed and potentially OHKO Occa Berry Metagross. LeadApe can't do that.

-Magmortar beats LeadApes in a 1v1 scenario.

-Flame Body is surprisingly useful when switching into BP Scizor or MM Metagross.

-Surprise factor.

Getting Rocks up first turn and preventing Stealth Rock is not the be all, end all job of leads. Suicide leads in general usually fail.

Don't knock it until you try it. You'd be surprised how many people simply don't know what this thing will do in the lead spot.

It's halfway between Sash Infernape and Choice Specs Heatran... I'm concerned about you getting OHKOd though, and you can't touch Heatran.

Why would I use this over Machamp?

Machamp can't OHKO Swampert leads, unless you get lucky with confusion. Magmortar destroys Swampert leads.

Machamp hates Trick Scarf leads; Magmortar doesn't mind it.

Magmortar OHKO's lead Jirachi, to my knowledge Machamp can't do that.

Lum Berry Metagross leads always beat Machamp. Magmortar OHKO's Lum Berry Metagross guaranteed.

Magmortar beats Colbur Berry Azelf, Machamp does not.

Surprise factor. Most leads will switch out expecting a Bullet Punch from Machamp, while Mach Punch from Magmortar is unexpected.

Let me show you why this will be rejected:

Vs. Top Leads
Azelf: Gets up rocks. You are left up 6-5 with a -2 SpAtk Magmortar, piss-weak Mach Punch, and a guarantee that you're at 75% next time you come in. LOSE.
Machamp: Stone Edge OHKO. You do nothing serious. LOSE
Aerodactyl: Rock Slide OHKOs most of the time. Stone Edge always. It gets up SR or takes a shot at killing you. EVEN
Metagross: Chance to OHKO through Occa. Many Metagross don't run Occa anymore. EQ is an easy OHKO. Risky...but I'll give you a WIN
Swampert: WIN
Jirachi: it U-turns out. 248 speed isn't beating any Jirachi I know. LOSE
Infernape: Fake Out + CC never KOs. Hold on...It uses SR. Now you do not KO with Thunderbolt + Mach Punch and must take another hit. You survive with 23% left MAX. The SR you just let get set up kills you. All to go up 6-5. Brilliant. LOSE
Roserade: you get put to sleep. LOSE
Heatran: Earth Power 2HKOs and it outspeeds. 2 Thunderbolts + Mach Punch = 93.1% - 109.9%. It's almost 50/50 that it sets up SR AND kills you. Or SpecsTran either gets SR or goes up 6-5 with more than 50% health. Or LOTran sets up rocks and goes up 6-5. LOSE
Ninjask: It sets up on your ass and passes off whenever it wants. You lose to a freaking Ninjask. LOSE

That's the top 10. Your record: 2-7-1

It's not a complete loss against Jirachi (or even Azelf) and I think antidote is being a bit harsh here, but I don't think Magmortar has the midgame value to justify using it.

ape is 100% better

zachmac said:

Well, I think this is a good idea because of this:

Infernape probably couldn't take an aerodactyl's earthquake, and has lower base speed. infernape uses focus sash and is faster

Any way, NU in OU is just cool. no it's not, fuck you

But hey, I'm not the one who made this. I couldn't tell you what he/she was thinking. so don't comment

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Blame Truth said:

There are several reasons:

-LeadApe loses to Crobat leads thanks to Crobat's Inner Focus while Magmortar OHKO's it with Thunderbolt, unless it U-Turns. crobat is not a common lead

-LeadApe can't OHKO Swampert with Grass Knot, and Swampert will either get up SR or break Infernape's Sash, rendering it pretty useless. Magmortar outspeeds and OHKO's Swampert; no rocks, no damage. leadape does not use grass knot

-Magmortar has the ability to outspeed and potentially OHKO Occa Berry Metagross. LeadApe can't do that. yes it can

-Magmortar beats LeadApes in a 1v1 scenario. close combat is a 2hko. either you die or they get rocks

-Flame Body is surprisingly useful when switching into BP Scizor or MM Metagross. stealth rock weakness is not

-Surprise factor. irrelevant

Getting Rocks up first turn and preventing Stealth Rock is not the be all, end all job of leads. Suicide leads in general usually fail. irrelevant

Don't knock it until you try it. You'd be surprised how many people simply don't know what this thing will do in the lead spot. irrelevant

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Dude, you're speaking as if every opponent I face knows the set beforehand. :P No Aerodactyl will Stone Edge this thing when it can Earthquake, its too risky considering they have no idea what set this will have, if I have a sash, or whatever. The main advantage you get is surprise factor which you aren't accounting for. I wouldn't be posting this set if it hadn't worked for me. It's completely unexpected and that's where its strength lies.

First, scaring off a Jirachi while it does barely anything with U-Turn with a potential for it to get burned is certainly not a loss.

Guaranteed 25% of my health shaved off the next time I come in after I kill an Azelf or any suicide lead assumes I don't have a spinner. Rocks are not the be all, end all of leads and I don't understand the fascination of these terrible suicide leads that get up rocks and die, only to have something come in a few turns later and set up rocks and live, or flat out spin away the suicide lead's rocks. After a few turns it ends up 6-5 me, we both have Rocks up, or your Rocks are gone, and I lose? Not really.

Heatran and Ninjask leads are very uncommon, but they do beat it. Roserade and Machamp beat it too, although you can do around 80% to Machamp, and if Roserade misses Sleep Powder, it dies.

Let's re-evaluate here.

Azelf: Gets up rocks. Dies. I come in 4 turns later and get up Rocks or spin the rocks away. Win.
Machamp: Stone Edge OHKO. LOSE
Aerodactyl: EQ won't kill. Stone Edge will, but its very rare. 99% of Aerodactyl will set up Rocks or EQ. WIN
Metagross: Magmortar outspeeds and kills. WIN
Swampert: WIN
Jirachi: it U-turns out with the potential to be burned. EVEN
Infernape: Fake Out hits for low damage. Ape either gets up rocks or attacks. If it attacks, it dies. If it sets up rocks, it loses 60% of its health and its Sash gets broken. Rocks aren't a problem for me, so I'll take a WIN.
Roserade: you get put to sleep. LOSE
Heatran: Earth Power 2HKOs and it outspeeds. 2 Thunderbolts + Mach Punch = 93.1% - 109.9%. It's almost 50/50 that it sets up SR AND kills you. Or SpecsTran either gets SR or goes up 6-5 with more than 50% health. Or LOTran sets up rocks and goes up 6-5. LOSE
Ninjask: It sets up on your ass and passes off whenever it wants. You lose to a freaking Ninjask. LOSE


5 wins, 4 losses and 1 even in my mind. Not bad at all considering a lot of other popular leads you left out such as Celebi and Crobat. Anyone can make a list of counters to popular leads like that, its not hard.

-Surprise factor. irrelevant

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If surprise factor wasn't relevant then there wouldn't be sets like SubPunching Gengar or Mixed Metagross, which are on this very site. -_-

Surprise factor has been completely relevant on this thing, and I have faced quite a few veteran players with it.

If surprise factor wasn't relevant then there wouldn't be sets like SubPunching Gengar or Mixed Metagross

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There's a difference between sets with surprise factor and sets that have surprise factor but work pretty well even with surprise factor gone. You don't see stuff like Specs Gyarados there, do you??

KOing a suicide lead is not a win, period. You can spit that you think they're pointless and 6-5 w/ SR puts you in a better position, but the opponent is using it with the mindset and intention that it will die early, so the opponent is very well ready and capable of competing with only 5 pokemon. So, if a suicide lead sets up SR it's done its job. If you don't prevent it from doing its job, it doesn't lose. Call it even if you want, I personally consider it a loss. Rapid Spinning is not reliable; in the time you take to go out of your way and perform such a task, the opponent has time to set up and start ruining you.

Surprise factor is irrelevant in the lead position. And while you argue that you're opponents didn't know what you were running, remember that you're trying to get this on site and to the public, which completely voids that reasoning even if it was valid.

That said I haven't actually evaluated the set in depth, but based on what's posted I'm not impressed; there are a lot of pokemon that can play the "3 attack + priority" game but that doesn't mean they require sets on site.

And at zachmac: "NUs are cool in OU" is not legitimate reasoning for a set being on site, completely ignoring how ridiculous the statement is in the first place.

One issue I see is that the only real surprise factor here is the fact that it's a Magmortar, who doesn't have the most diverse movepool and any half decent player will be aware of what it's likely to do and play accordingly without too much risk. And if a surprise set doesn't fuck up your opponent in some form then it's not fulfilling the role of a surprise set imo.

It doesn't look like the best lead in the world but I think people are being a bit harsh and quick to judge. It does have some differences and advantages over Heatran/Ape and I think if we're sticking to "if a set does its job well despite being mostly outclassed it should still be put on-site" it should definitely be looked into more. Especially since if someone wants to use Magmortar in OU for whatever reason, this is probably one of the better options and its analysis doesn't have anything to show that. That's my opinion on that matter anyway..

This is just me, but as soon as I see a Magmortar I instantly think "This thing's got Thunderbolt and a grass move" from all those times in game with Flint's Magmortar. So there's not an awful lot of surprise factor there. :P

a while back i went with lead magmortar but with max speed/max spatk with +speed and life orb and focus blast/wow/overheat/tbolt.

the thought behind this is: you like almost always ohko occa gross iirc, you outspeed and ohko heatran out right, and if you're using a swampert and see magmortar lead, you know you're getting the fuck out of there, and that's a free wow to w/e switch in that is.

of course you dont beat the whole 'aerodactyl/azelf' monopoly of leads, but let's be rational, how many 'good players' still use those generic suicide leads? it's just like using empoleon, you can probably get away base on the opponents assumption that you have aqua jet after you hydro pump. of course these guides aren't meant for 'just good people' but again, let's be honest, if you're using magmortar as a lead, you're either really good, or really bad, and there's no way in hell you are just an 'average' battler. therefore for special situations like magmortar, you're either good with it or bad with it. it's a pretty good lead except when i got super fucked by wow misses lol but w/e

While this post has nothing to do with the OP or the Magmortar set, why do you guys talk like letting opposite leads set up Stealth Rocks is like losing the match ? Ever heard of Rapid Spin ? Almost all teams have a Pokemon with Rapid Spin now since everyone relies on entry hazards to win.

[fuck spin blockers if you're gonna mention them]

This is just me, but as soon as I see a Magmortar I instantly think "This thing's got Thunderbolt and a grass move"

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Don't we all ?

I personally never ragequit, when you see me quitting it's either because my internet went nuts or the computer froze. And even when that happens i send a PM to the guy i fought saying sorry for quitting. [if i still remember the name]


Anyway, i actually like this set, might even test if i'm not busy or something.

The difference between Magmortar and Machamp is very very huge. Machamp KOs a suicide lead whilst it sets up rocks and due to Machamps bulk, huge attack and STAB Dynamic Punch, it can be sure to hit the next pokemon coming in very hard. So in essence, Machamp can cripple 2 or even 3 of the opponent's pokemon and not just get a quick 6-5.

Magmortar on the other hand, has to be at -2 Sp. Attk, with a terrible weak Mach Punch, when the next pokemon comes in. Now Magmortar is set up bait, and cannot cripple the next switch in. This is not even approaching the problem with being outsped and OHKOd, something that is hard to do to Machamp. This set is really bad and people should stop having every pokemon with 3 attacks + priority as an "Anti Lead"

I posted a similar set to this long ago (pre-Plat!) in the Stark thread, except I ran Overheat/Mach Punch/Earthquake/Thunderbolt @Life Orb. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=638151&postcount=105.

It's only real redeeming quality is OHKO Hippowdon leads with LO Overheat, now that everybody and their brother runs ShucaTran leads. Although in truth it can also OHKO Attacking Lead Machamp 50% of the time and AntiLead Champ if it gets max damage, but that scenario is too unlikely.