As per this topic. No objections were made so this poll will close at 11:59 PM Pacific Time on October 30th, 2010. If 66.00% or higher vote to have a OHKO clause, we will start the fifth generation with OHKO clause in effect.
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[Vote] OHKO Clause
- Thread starter Firestorm
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I voted yes because we're pushing competitive battling, meaning that the best players should win. Without OHKO clause, the good players will lose to the most random noobs running fissure. The chances of it working aren't high but if we are pushing competitive pokemon where players are supposed to benefit (through wins) from their knowledge and understanding of the game, why would we include such an equalizer when it's so easy to take away? Gen V is different from gen IV but the reasons we had OHKO clause in gen IV is still around in gen V.
I really think you're overstating the ability of OHKO moves if you think it will allow a good player to lose to a "random noob". The reasons we've had OHKO moves include "We used to use it, so let's grandfather it" which I think we're moving away from this generation. Knowing what is likely to use a OHKO move and using immunities and abilities that safeguards oneself from those movies requires knowledge and understanding as well.
Yeah I mean it's more gamebreaking than shit that can happen with other moves (secondary effects, crits, shit like that) but the difference is that when they miss they give you a free move which against worse players can be gamebreaking. If anything against less skilled players I would say on average ohko moves at worst cancel out.
I'm more concerned about the utility of OHKO moves in the hand of a good player against another good player. That's where I feel that they break the game and is why I voted for it to be in effect initially.
I'm more concerned about the utility of OHKO moves in the hand of a good player against another good player. That's where I feel that they break the game and is why I voted for it to be in effect initially.
I can definitely see a point there. The problem however is that this depends on the knowledge of sets containing OHKO moves. I can tell you one thing, OHKO moves will never become standard on any set. The average-good player wants to have some consistency and reliability with their sets. Even hypnosis at 60% is frowned upon now because of this. Since OHKO moves will never become standard, it will be incredibly hard to predict when a certain poke has an OHKO move.
Even if you do predict it, you may not have the right answers to it. For example, nothing resists sheer cold. Lapras also has access to all the OHKO moves, making finding the right resistances impossible. As to sturdy, the list of pokemon with this ability are very small. The ones which are competitive are even smaller. For reference, here's the list of serebii: http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/sturdy.shtml. Are we really going to force ourselves to use one of these few pokemon just for the sake of OHKO moves? Once again, I doubt the good battlers will be using OHKO moves at all, so it's kind of silly to plan against it. If anyone has a poke with sturdy on it, I am quite confident that it wouldn't have been because of OHKO moves, simply a coincidence. Not every team will or should run skarm, gigaith or forry.
So yeah, in short, OHKO moves will be hard to plan against because they will never become standard, that in turn makes it easier for bad players to pull off skill-less upsets. The very identity of smogon is a competitive pokemon community and so should not encourage things such as OHKO moves.
You're worried that they might be too good so you voted to ban them without testing?
Sheer Cold is the only move that has no immunities. The list of Pokemon with Sheer Cold is even smaller than the list of Pokemon with Sturdy. The idea that good players won't use it so we shouldn't let anyone use it because it's harder to prepare for seems flawed to me. In a game of statistics, it seems like OHKOs are a legitimate high-risk, high-reward strategy. The question is whether or not the risk for reward is too low - which is something we can better understand if we actually play in a metagame where it can be tried rather than restricting it right off the bat.
Edit: Also should probably mention that OHKO moves do not get affected by accuracy or evasion which makes them interesting tools against Double Team and Minimize.
That's the risk you take by using the moves. An opponent using OHKO moves is something beyond your control.
An opponent using Hydro Pump vs Surf is also out of your hands.
Like I said, I can understand arguing that the reward is too high, but saying it's luck-based seems foolish when the game being played is Pokemon. It's an RPG series. Dice rolls have been part of the core of RPGs since the genre started.
Either way, you can predict a water move and send in the appropriate resist. You don't have that luxury with a Suicune that sits there spamming Sheer Cold. The only Sturdy poke that can possibly take a Surf to the face and hit back with relevant damage is Magnezone, and if it's forced into that role then lol. We could either argue back and forth all day or, since we've both made our positions clear and voted accordingly, just let the results decide.
I am interested in why some people voted differently for OHKO Clause than they did for Evasion Clause. They are both extremely luck-based strategies with roughly the same benefits should they succeed (being able to KO something you couldn't normally) and roughly the same results should they fail (being knocked out). Could those of you who obviously feel that these two clauses are different enough to warrant having one but not the other explain your reasoning, please?
If Sheer Cold didn't exist, I'd be a lot more in favor of OHKOs. Syberia points out my exact issue with that move -- the Pokémon with Sturdy, the would-be "counters" for OHKO abusers, are largely type-weak against the Pokémon that learn Sheer Cold. Not only do Sturdy-mons hold up better against the users of other OHKOs moves, for the most part, but you can also work around them with type immunities.
This is kinda like the Evasion Clause topic where some people are dogging on the buffed Minimize now. Sheer Cold, likewise, is on another level relative to the other OHKO moves but selectively banning singular moves is uncharted territory. Not so sure about the others but at least that one OHKO move is [extremely likely] still overpowered.
Abstaining for now.
This is kinda like the Evasion Clause topic where some people are dogging on the buffed Minimize now. Sheer Cold, likewise, is on another level relative to the other OHKO moves but selectively banning singular moves is uncharted territory. Not so sure about the others but at least that one OHKO move is [extremely likely] still overpowered.
Abstaining for now.
This is largely more a question for the Research thread, but... does Sturdy prevent OHKOs entirely in Gen 5, or does it just keep the Focus Sash-esque feel and simply leave the user at 1 HP?
Just tested this, Sturdy still makes a pokemon immune to OHKO moves even if it isn't at full health.
My short answer:
OHKO Clause bans four moves, but considering the Pokemon who learn them and the Pokemon who can counter them, I believe only Sheer Cold might be worthy of a ban. (I stress might.) Even then, I only think it's truly dangerous in the hands of three Pokemon in Lapras, Walrein, and Suicune--or four if Kyogre is counted. I can't support a blanket OHKO ban offhand, but I do believe Sheer Cold is worth testing (and possibly banning) independently of the others.
Also, for what it's worth, I think Machamp is a great comparison point. It gets to deal same damage with a base 100 power STAB move and give itself 50% free turn chances at the same time, which means that it mixes the reliability of a power move with the beat-a-counter potential of an OHKO move--and has a higher chance of getting a free turn than the OHKO move has of connecting even if the confusion only lasts one turn. Nothing can switch in except a Ghost, Slowbro, or Slowking, but the idea of banning Machamp isn't even dreamed of.
Longer answer elaborating on the individual moves:
Fissure
This move is learned by several notable Pokemon like Hippowdon, Doryuuzu, Flygon, Snorlax, Mamoswine, Randorosu, and Dugtrio, among other lesser options. However, I don't think I need to go over them in great detail considering how many powerful Pokemon who have historically seen common usage act as counters: Gyarados, Zapdos, Skarmory, Bronzong, Gliscor, Dragonite, Togekiss, Gengar, Forretress, Donphan, Cresselia, the Rotom forms, and the returning Salamence. On top of this, B/W adds five strong new Pokemon who ignore Fissure in Sazandora, Shibirudon, and the legendary trio, and there's also the Balloon item if it proves to have staying power. Finally, although it can't switch in directly, Mischievous Heart allows Erufuun to always Substitute before an OHKO move.
Except for Lapras, Walrein, Wailord, Torkoal, and Bastiodon, all Fissure users are Pokemon who commonly use Ground moves, which means that the switch-ins will likely be immune to Fissure simply because they're prepared for Earthquake or Earth Power. That much holds true even for Groudon.
In brief: Many (possibly even most) competitive teams will carry one or two Pokemon who counter a Fissure user's entire moveset without even meaning to, which suggests it's not worth banning.
Guillotine and Horn Drill
These two moves are slightly harder to work around. Skarmory and Forretress don't care about any of the users. Dusclops and Dusknoir have no trouble except for Crawdaunt and Kirikizan. Donphan has problems with the Water-type Guillotine/Horn Drill users and potentially Rapidash, but it does stop a fair number of others. Burunkeru is good to go unless it's facing Crawdaunt or Kirkizan. Spiritomb has pretty good defenses and no weaknesses, so it doesn't care about anything except maybe Nidoking. Gengar, for as fragile as it is, can get in on select things such as a Gliscor without Night Slash or Stone Edge or a Doryuuzu who dropped Rock Slide to use Horn Drill and/or Fissure and doesn't have Shadow Claw either.
Despite the small list of genuine counters in the strict sense, most users of Guillotine or Horn Drill simply aren't very good. Pinsir, Kingler, Crawdaunt, Kirikizan, Aianto, Dewgong, Seaking, and Rapidash all have at least one issue out of low Speed, poor defenses, poor offense, poor type coverage, common weaknesses, and a 4x weakness, which leaves them being fairly lame for any purpose except OHKOs. Like with Machamp, the fact that almost nothing can safely switch in doesn't equate to being broken. Gliscor (and Gligar along with it) stands out since it's been commonly-used, but it's never beating most Sturdy users or bulky Ghosts--and potentially not even some fragile Ghosts. Rhydon and Rhyperior are two of the better Horn Drill users, which is saying something since they're weak against so many common attack types.
In brief: Aside from maybe Nidoking and Ononokusu, who don't have any terribly glaring flaws, I'm not seeing users of these moves as troublesome either. Most of the Pokemon with Guillotine and Horn Drill have issues switching in or are easily revenged, so they're unlikely to get more than one successful KO per game with any of their moves--if they even get that far. The idea that they could get a successful KO on a 30% chance is no big deal; Pursuit users, Dugtrio, Magneton, and Magnezone are often good for one successful KO on a 100% chance and that's no problem.
Sheer Cold
Like sleep and unlike other OHKO moves, Sheer Cold would have virtually no counters even if it was the only move a Pokemon knew. Lapras, Walrein, and Suicune might very well be the core of the OHKO argument; when people worry about great OHKO users, they're likely thinking of these Pokemon. Unlike other Sheer Cold users such as, say, Smeargle and Dewgong, they're bulky enough to switch in and they're bulky enough to stay in.
Sheer Cold is a big deal.
Usually the response to something that's overpowered has been banning a Pokemon, not its most notable moves. But I don't think the choice needs to be that either a move is banned no matter what Pokemon uses it (OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause) or that a Pokemon is banned no matter what its moves are. If Lapras, Walrein, Suicune, or another Sheer Cold user proved to be broken, I wouldn't want a ban on the entire Pokemon or a ban on Sheer Cold. Latias without Soul Dew was once allowed in OU while Latias with Soul Dew was treated differently, so there's no contradiction if it was decided to ban Sheer Cold Suicune but keep non-Sheer Cold Suicune (and also keep Sheer Cold Glalie, Baibanira, and Articuno).
All in all: no on implementing a sweeping OHKO Clause. Evaluate the moves independently and I believe only Sheer Cold has any shot at being too powerful. It has fewer counters than the other OHKO moves, it's backed by more suitable Pokemon, and it's backed by more supportive movepools. Even then, 30% accuracy will never be good and two of its three best users are quite slow.
OHKO Clause bans four moves, but considering the Pokemon who learn them and the Pokemon who can counter them, I believe only Sheer Cold might be worthy of a ban. (I stress might.) Even then, I only think it's truly dangerous in the hands of three Pokemon in Lapras, Walrein, and Suicune--or four if Kyogre is counted. I can't support a blanket OHKO ban offhand, but I do believe Sheer Cold is worth testing (and possibly banning) independently of the others.
Also, for what it's worth, I think Machamp is a great comparison point. It gets to deal same damage with a base 100 power STAB move and give itself 50% free turn chances at the same time, which means that it mixes the reliability of a power move with the beat-a-counter potential of an OHKO move--and has a higher chance of getting a free turn than the OHKO move has of connecting even if the confusion only lasts one turn. Nothing can switch in except a Ghost, Slowbro, or Slowking, but the idea of banning Machamp isn't even dreamed of.
Longer answer elaborating on the individual moves:
Fissure
This move is learned by several notable Pokemon like Hippowdon, Doryuuzu, Flygon, Snorlax, Mamoswine, Randorosu, and Dugtrio, among other lesser options. However, I don't think I need to go over them in great detail considering how many powerful Pokemon who have historically seen common usage act as counters: Gyarados, Zapdos, Skarmory, Bronzong, Gliscor, Dragonite, Togekiss, Gengar, Forretress, Donphan, Cresselia, the Rotom forms, and the returning Salamence. On top of this, B/W adds five strong new Pokemon who ignore Fissure in Sazandora, Shibirudon, and the legendary trio, and there's also the Balloon item if it proves to have staying power. Finally, although it can't switch in directly, Mischievous Heart allows Erufuun to always Substitute before an OHKO move.
Except for Lapras, Walrein, Wailord, Torkoal, and Bastiodon, all Fissure users are Pokemon who commonly use Ground moves, which means that the switch-ins will likely be immune to Fissure simply because they're prepared for Earthquake or Earth Power. That much holds true even for Groudon.
In brief: Many (possibly even most) competitive teams will carry one or two Pokemon who counter a Fissure user's entire moveset without even meaning to, which suggests it's not worth banning.
Guillotine and Horn Drill
These two moves are slightly harder to work around. Skarmory and Forretress don't care about any of the users. Dusclops and Dusknoir have no trouble except for Crawdaunt and Kirikizan. Donphan has problems with the Water-type Guillotine/Horn Drill users and potentially Rapidash, but it does stop a fair number of others. Burunkeru is good to go unless it's facing Crawdaunt or Kirkizan. Spiritomb has pretty good defenses and no weaknesses, so it doesn't care about anything except maybe Nidoking. Gengar, for as fragile as it is, can get in on select things such as a Gliscor without Night Slash or Stone Edge or a Doryuuzu who dropped Rock Slide to use Horn Drill and/or Fissure and doesn't have Shadow Claw either.
Despite the small list of genuine counters in the strict sense, most users of Guillotine or Horn Drill simply aren't very good. Pinsir, Kingler, Crawdaunt, Kirikizan, Aianto, Dewgong, Seaking, and Rapidash all have at least one issue out of low Speed, poor defenses, poor offense, poor type coverage, common weaknesses, and a 4x weakness, which leaves them being fairly lame for any purpose except OHKOs. Like with Machamp, the fact that almost nothing can safely switch in doesn't equate to being broken. Gliscor (and Gligar along with it) stands out since it's been commonly-used, but it's never beating most Sturdy users or bulky Ghosts--and potentially not even some fragile Ghosts. Rhydon and Rhyperior are two of the better Horn Drill users, which is saying something since they're weak against so many common attack types.
In brief: Aside from maybe Nidoking and Ononokusu, who don't have any terribly glaring flaws, I'm not seeing users of these moves as troublesome either. Most of the Pokemon with Guillotine and Horn Drill have issues switching in or are easily revenged, so they're unlikely to get more than one successful KO per game with any of their moves--if they even get that far. The idea that they could get a successful KO on a 30% chance is no big deal; Pursuit users, Dugtrio, Magneton, and Magnezone are often good for one successful KO on a 100% chance and that's no problem.
Sheer Cold
Like sleep and unlike other OHKO moves, Sheer Cold would have virtually no counters even if it was the only move a Pokemon knew. Lapras, Walrein, and Suicune might very well be the core of the OHKO argument; when people worry about great OHKO users, they're likely thinking of these Pokemon. Unlike other Sheer Cold users such as, say, Smeargle and Dewgong, they're bulky enough to switch in and they're bulky enough to stay in.
Sheer Cold is a big deal.
Usually the response to something that's overpowered has been banning a Pokemon, not its most notable moves. But I don't think the choice needs to be that either a move is banned no matter what Pokemon uses it (OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause) or that a Pokemon is banned no matter what its moves are. If Lapras, Walrein, Suicune, or another Sheer Cold user proved to be broken, I wouldn't want a ban on the entire Pokemon or a ban on Sheer Cold. Latias without Soul Dew was once allowed in OU while Latias with Soul Dew was treated differently, so there's no contradiction if it was decided to ban Sheer Cold Suicune but keep non-Sheer Cold Suicune (and also keep Sheer Cold Glalie, Baibanira, and Articuno).
All in all: no on implementing a sweeping OHKO Clause. Evaluate the moves independently and I believe only Sheer Cold has any shot at being too powerful. It has fewer counters than the other OHKO moves, it's backed by more suitable Pokemon, and it's backed by more supportive movepools. Even then, 30% accuracy will never be good and two of its three best users are quite slow.
I vote yes purely on principle. Pokemon is hardly a balanced game in and of itself. As a competitive community, we have taken it upon ourselves to build up a set of rules that minimize the game's inherent imbalances and try and turn it into a fair competition, minimizing the factors that take away from pure skill. OHKO moves are one of those factors. They are an element of random chance that can determine the outcome of a battle at the mercy of the RNG, and this is something to be avoided.
Playing with OHKO moves is not the same as the choice of Hydro Pump or Surf, despite how it appears on the surface. Hydro Pump is a gamble to use over Surf, thanks to shaky accuracy. To choose Hydro Pump over Surf means that the user is taking the risk of no payoff for the chance of a larger one. Arguments in favor of OHKO moves claim that it is the same with these moves, just on a larger scale. However, the difference between OHKOs and other high power moves is that even the most powerful moves can be played around. If I predict Ice Beam or Blizzard, I can switch in Vaporeon or Milotic, and I have checked the attack. However, you can't play around OHKOs. You cannot check them with anything but very specific counters, especially Sheer Cold, where there is no type immunity. Unless you switch in these specific counters, you are at risk of losing something no matter what you did. Where is the skill here? If I switch in that Milotic expecting Ice Beam to get reamed by Sheer Cold, did I do something wrong? What could I have possibly done to prevent this? Anything that removes skill from the hands of a player such as this does not belong in a competitive environment.
I believe that we need to firmly realize that we are not a pure Pokemon simulator. We are attempting to play the game at it's most competitive, despite the random elements involved. While we cannot control the mechanics of the game, we can alter what elements we allow into it. Whether they would see widespread use or not, anything that directly removes the influence of skill from the hands of the players does not belong in the environment we are attempting to maintain. So, despite their impracticality, OHKO moves should stay banned for the sake of our principles.
Playing with OHKO moves is not the same as the choice of Hydro Pump or Surf, despite how it appears on the surface. Hydro Pump is a gamble to use over Surf, thanks to shaky accuracy. To choose Hydro Pump over Surf means that the user is taking the risk of no payoff for the chance of a larger one. Arguments in favor of OHKO moves claim that it is the same with these moves, just on a larger scale. However, the difference between OHKOs and other high power moves is that even the most powerful moves can be played around. If I predict Ice Beam or Blizzard, I can switch in Vaporeon or Milotic, and I have checked the attack. However, you can't play around OHKOs. You cannot check them with anything but very specific counters, especially Sheer Cold, where there is no type immunity. Unless you switch in these specific counters, you are at risk of losing something no matter what you did. Where is the skill here? If I switch in that Milotic expecting Ice Beam to get reamed by Sheer Cold, did I do something wrong? What could I have possibly done to prevent this? Anything that removes skill from the hands of a player such as this does not belong in a competitive environment.
I believe that we need to firmly realize that we are not a pure Pokemon simulator. We are attempting to play the game at it's most competitive, despite the random elements involved. While we cannot control the mechanics of the game, we can alter what elements we allow into it. Whether they would see widespread use or not, anything that directly removes the influence of skill from the hands of the players does not belong in the environment we are attempting to maintain. So, despite their impracticality, OHKO moves should stay banned for the sake of our principles.
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