Carnivine (Update)

Aeron Ee1 · Jan 3, 2011

Taking this over Bad Ass, who wrote this up, and Flashrider57, who got this through QC.

STAMPS

Quality Control: 2/2:

(Bluewind)

(uragg)

Grammar Prose: 2/2:

(Floglemi)

(Zystral)

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/carnivine

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[Overview]

Carnivine is an odd Grass-type, sporting some good base attacking stats, some weaker defensive stats, a horrible Speed, and Levitate, which is what really separates Carnivine from its Grass-type brethren. While almost completely outclassed by other Grass-types, Carnivine does have a niche in its Swords Dance set which, while almost always inferior to Leafeon or Venusaur, can work with Levitate. Levitate makes Carnivine completely immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Earthquake, allowing it some unique opportunities to set up a Swords Dance, such as on a Choice Rhyperior's Earthquake (something Venusaur could only ever dream of doing). In short, Carnivine has a niche, but is usually harshly outclassed.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return / Substitute
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set takes advantage of Carnivine's best stat, its Attack, and boosts it with Swords Dance before attempting a sweep. Levitate gives Carnivine a unique immunity to Toxic Spikes and Spikes, which when combined with the Ground immunity that Carnivine is afforded, allows it to take hits, conserve more health, and afford more opportunities for it to set up a Swords Dance. Sleep Powder can potentially remove one of Carnivine's counters from the match, which can mean a sweep or a key threat eliminated.

Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack, having an effective Base Power of 180 after the STAB boost, and it will be hitting like a truck even without a Swords Dance. Return is a powerful coverage move, and garners good coverage alongside Power Whip, denting Pokemon like Arcanine, Leafeon, Scyther, and Swellow hard before attempting a sweep. A mono-attacker approach can be attempted with Substitute and Leftovers over Return and Life Orb, but it is not encouraged as mono-Grass is walled by quite a few of the top UU Pokemon, and without Swords Dance or Life Orb, Carnivine will not be hitting nearly as hard as it needs to be.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

As it stands, Carnivine outspeeds standard Milotic and can OHKO it with a boosted Power Whip, or 2HKO with an unboosted one. An option for using Carnivine in a Trick Room team is to remove all Speed EVs, place them in HP, and run a Relaxed nature to become as slow as possible. Carnivine is not recommended on a dedicated Trick Room team, though, since after a Sleep Powder and a Swords Dance, it only gets one turn to use an attack. Synthesis is another option to use in the last slot to give Carnivine a means of easy recovery. On the other hand, Stun Spore can paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, Scyther, and Swellow (before its Orb activates). Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game.

Carnivine, like all offensive Pokemon, enjoys entry hazards to help gain KOs and do more overall damage to the opposing team. Omastar is a notable teammate because it can easily come in on the Fire-types, such as Arcanine, that plague Carnivine and set up any one of the three entry hazards. Rhyperior can also deal with Fire-types, while also being able to handle Bug-types, due to its natural physical bulk, and Flying-types, due to a resistance. In addition, Rhyperior can easily switch into Registeel, a common Carnivine counter, and set up Stealth Rock to aid in Carnivine's sweep. Most Water-types can sponge the Fire Blasts and Flamethrowers that are sure to be thrown at Carnivine.

Offensively, Fire-types are an excellent complement to Carnivine. Arcanine can get a free Flash Fire boost on many Fire-types and draws out Pokemon like Milotic, who can be easily set up on by Carnivine. Arcanine also easily handles any Steel-types and can lure out and KO Pokemon such as Moltres with a Flash Fire-boosted Flare Blitz. Slowking is also a great partner offensively, as it can switch into Fire-types and set up Trick Room to remedy Carnivine's low Speed. It can also lure out Grass- and Electric-types for Carnivine to set up on.

[Other Options]

While Carnivine's defenses are not top-notch, access to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and reliable healing in Synthesis means that Carnivine can viably run a support set. Leech Seed can also be used to slowly sap health from opponents, an especially deadly strategy when combined with entry hazards. Although Carnivine can utilize Growth along with its base 90 Special Attack, it is not recommended as Carnivine has a bad special movepool and a lack of power compared to Swords Dance. Crunch can be used over Return on the Swords Dance set to hit Ghost-types more reliably, but Return overshadows it due to its higher Base Power and better coverage when combined with Power Whip. Stockpile can raise Carnivine's defenses, but the prevalence of moves like Sludge Bomb and Flare Blitz, combined with Carnivine's less-than-stellar defenses remove most of its viability. Finally, Gastro Acid and Worry Seed can render opposing Pokemon who rely on an ability near-useless, such as Swellow (though Brave Bird will still do a number on Carnivine).

[Checks and Counters]

Carnivine is easily countered by most Fire-types. Moltres and Arcanine are prime choices due to their bulk and reliable healing. Moltres, however, will have to be careful about switching in too often if Stealth Rock is on the field. Houndoom and Blaziken can also reliably check Carnivine, but their lack of bulk and reliable recovery make them less-than-desirable. Most Flying-types are extremely dangerous offensively, and afford themselves a free switch on Carnivine's STAB attacks. Swellow and Scyther especially can come in on Power Whip and wreak havoc with STAB Facade and U-turn, respectively. Once again, they are rather frail, so they should make sure that Stealth Rock is off the field and that they are not switching into Return. Bulky Grass-types such as Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Leafeon can easily take any of Carnivine's attacks, heal off the damage, and retaliate. Registeel resists almost everything Carnivine can possibly throw at it, but doesn't appreciate Sleep Powder.

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Credits

QC Period - Flashrider57
Write-up - Bad Ass
GP Check 1 - Flora / Oglemi
GP Check 1.5 - Aeron Ee1 <- doesn't actually count T_T
GP Check 2 - Zystral

YaM · Jan 3, 2011

This set takes advantage of Carnivine's good base 100 Attack stat, boosting it to 777 after a single Swords Dance.

Umm Swords Dance doubles the attack stat with one boost right? So why it is an odd number >_> I checked and Jolly with max Attack reaches 299 so an SD should double it to 598.

Alonsoforever · Jan 3, 2011

YaM said:
Umm Swords Dance doubles the attack stat with one boost right? So why it is an odd number >_> I checked and Jolly with max Attack reaches 299 so an SD should double it to 598.

That is because it counts the Life Orb boost. 299*2*1'3=777.

Flashrider57 · Jan 3, 2011

Wow, BA...already half written...

YaM is right, though...after one Swords Dance, the Attack stat should be 598. Also, Life Orb boosts the MOVE'S power by 30%, not the Attack stat...

Bad Ass · Jan 5, 2011

ready for gp checks

Honko · Jan 8, 2011

Blue is changes/additions
Red is removals

[Overview]
Carnivine is an odd Grass-type, sporting a decent base 100 Attack and 90 Special Attack and possessing Levitate. As a Swords Dancer, Carnivine is almost completely outclassed by Leafeon and Venusaur, but its immunity to Spikes and Ground-type moves does give it a small advantage over its fellow Grass-types.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance / Substitute
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
This set takes advantage of Carnivine's good base 100 Attack stat, boosting it to 598 after a single Swords Dance. Levitate gives Carnivine a unique immunity to Toxic Spikes and regular Spikes. This, combined with the ground immunity that Carnivine is afforded, allows it to take hits, conserve more health, and afford more opportunities for it to set up a Swords Dance. Sleep Powder can potentially remove one of Carnivine's counters from the match, which can mean a sweep or a key threat eliminated.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack, and with 180 base power after factoring in STAB, it will hit most Pokemon hard before or after a Swords Dance, and will be Carnivine's main attacking option. Return is a powerful coverage move, that garners good coverage alongside Power Whip. It can dent Pokemon like Arcanine, Leafeon, Scyther, and Swellow hard before attempting a sweep. A mono-attacker can be attempted with Substitute over Return or Swords Dance, and Leftovers over Life Orb. This gives you a bit more room for error, but is not encouraged, as mono-Grass is walled by quite a few of the top Pokemon, and without Swords Dance or Life Orb, Carnivine will not be hitting nearly as hard as it needs to be.

As it stands, Carnivine outspeeds standard Milotic and can OHKO with a boosted Power Whip, or 2HKO before the boost. An option for Trick Room teams is to remove all Speed EVs, placing them in HP, and running a Relaxed nature as to become as slow as possible. However, Carnivine is not recommended on Trick Room, since after a Sleep Powder and a Swords Dance, you are only left with one turn to use an attack. Stun Spore is another option used to paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, Scyther, and Swellow before orb activation. Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game.

(extra newline here)
[Team Options]
Carnivine, like all offensive Pokemon, enjoys entry hazards to help gain KOs and do more overall damage to the opposing team. Omastar is notable because it can easily come in on Fire-types such as Arcanine that plague Carnivine and set up any one of the three entry hazards. Rhyperior can also deal with Fire-types, while also being able to handle Bug-types due to its natural physical bulk and Flying-types due to a resistance. In addition, Rhyperior can easily switch into Registeel, a common Carnivine counter, and set up Stealth Rock to aid in Carnivine's sweep. Most Water-types can sponge the numerous Fire attacks that are sure to be thrown at Carnivine.

Offensively, Fire-types are an excellent complement to Carnivine. Arcanine can get a free Flash Fire boost on many Fire-types and draws out Pokemon like Milotic that Carnivine can set up on. Arcanine also easily handles any Steel-types and can lure out and KO Pokemon such as Moltres with a Flash Fire boosted Flare Blitz. Slowking is also a great partner offensively, as it can swap into Fire-types and set up Trick Room to remedy Carnivine's low speed. It can also lure out Grass- and Electric-type moves to allow Carnivine to set up Swords Dance.

[Optional Changes]
While Carnivine's defenses are not top-notch, its access to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and reliable healing in Synthesis means that Carnivine can viably run a support set. Leech Seed can also be used to slowly sap health from opponents, an especially deadly strategy when combined with entry hazards. Carnivine can utilize Growth to boost its base 90 Special Attack, but this is not recommended as Carnivine has a bad special movepool and a lack of power compared to Swords Dance. Crunch can be used over Return on the Swords Dance set to hit Ghost-types more reliably, but Return overshadows it due to higher base power and better coverage when combined with Power Whip. Stockpile can raise Carnivine's defenses, but the prevalence of moves like Sludge Bomb and Flare Blitz, combined with Carnivine's less-than-stellar defenses even after a Stockpile, remove most viability. Finally, Gastro Acid and Worry Seed can render opposing Pokemon who rely on an ability near-useless.

[Counters]
Carnivine is easily countered by most Fire-types. Moltres and Arcanine are prime choices due to their bulk and reliable healing. Moltres, however, will have to watch out for Life Orb Return in conjunction with Stealth Rock. Houndoom and Blaziken can also reliably check Carnivine, although their lack of bulk and reliable recovery make them less than desirable. Most Flying-types are extremely dangerous offensively, and afford themselves a free switch on Carnivine's STAB attacks. Swellow and Scyther, especially, can come in on Power Whip and wreak havoc with STAB Facade and U-turn, respectively. Once again, they are rather frail, so they should make sure that Stealth Rock is off the field and that they are not switching into Return. Bulky Grass-types, such as Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Leafeon, can easily take any of Carnivine's attacks, heal off the damage, and retaliate. Registeel resists almost anything Carnivine has to throw at it, but doesn't appreciate Sleep Powder.

Flora · Jan 8, 2011

Can you expand the Overview? Pros/cons, comparisons to/from other Pokemon, interesting things about Carnivine, anything of those aspects would help.

Set comments should be detailing about all of the moveset's moves too. Synthesis, for example, has no talk at all until Optional changes, where it shouldn't be at since it has a slash. Basically, the AC tag should be moved below the second paragraph in the set's information, with more talk about what the moves do.

ps, this time done with carnivine would've been much better off done with venusaur lol

Bad Ass · Jan 8, 2011

im not doing venusaur ?_?

Flora · Feb 2, 2011

I don't know what to call this, but it's not GP 1/2.

[Overview]
Carnivine is an odd Grass-type, sporting a decent good (says "good" when reading below) base 100 Attack and 90 Special Attack (seems irrelevant if carnivine isn't using SpA in the first place) and possessing while being the only Grass-type to possess Levitate. While Although it is almost completely outclassed by other Grass-types, such as Leafeon or Venusaur, its access to Levitate means that it does not have to worry about Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Ground-type moves from draining its HP on every switch in, which grants it unique set-up opportunities. Sadly, Carnivine's defenses are only mediocre and its Speed is pitiful, which makes sweeping difficult to pull off at times. (and I won't keep implementing my own writing in your analysis, sorry about that. go ahead and make the final sentence: a wrap-up sentence. something like "While Carnivine isn't going to see much use any time soon, it can still be a usable Pokemon when given the opportunity." could work. feel free to rip ideas out of it.) , Carnivine does have a niche in its Swords Dance set which, while almost always inferior to Leafeon or Venusaur, can work with Levitate, being the only Grass-type to possess it. Levitate is the main reason one would use Carnivine over any of the previously mentioned Pokemon. It affords it some unique set up opportunities, while adding to its bulk and switch-in opportunities (kinda drags on... slapped on the important stuff in the other/new sentences)

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance / Substitute
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
This set takes advantage of Carnivine's good base 100 Attack stat, by boosting it to a immerse 598 after a single Swords Dance. Levitate gives Carnivine a unique immunity to Toxic Spikes and regular Spikes. This, combined with the ground immunity that Carnivine is afforded, allows it to With Levitate, Carnivine can take hits switch in easier, conserve more health, and afford more opportunities for it to set up a Swords Dance. Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack that can hit many Pokemon hard due to its high 180 Base Power (with STAB factored in). To demonstrate Power Whip's strength, it can OHKO the standard Milotic after a Swords Dance boost. Return is used alongside Power Whip to provide powerful neutral coverage. For instance, Carnivine can dent Pokemon such as Arcanine, Leafeon, and Scyther hard with Return before attempting a sweep. Sleep Powder can potentially remove one of Carnivine's counters from the match, which can give Carnivine an easier time sweeping mean a sweep or a key threat eliminated.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack, having 180 base power after the boost. It will hit most Pokemon hard before or after a Swords Dance, and will be Carnivine's main attacking option. Return is a powerful coverage move, and garners good coverage alongside Power Whip. It can dent Pokemon like Arcanine, Leafeon, Scyther, and Swellow hard before attempting a sweep. (moved) A mono-attacker can be attempted with Substitute over Return or (i don't see it slashed with return, which implies it's not a mono-attacker) Swords Dance, as well as with Leftovers as the item, can be used to give you a small margin of error protect Carnivine from status and scout the switch-in. It is not encouraged, however, because mono-Grass is walled by quite a few of the top Pokemon, and without Swords Dance or Life Orb, Carnivine will not be hitting nearly as hard as it needs to be. Stun Spore is another option that can paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, and Scyther. Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game. (discuss synthesis here) (and discuss the ev spread, why jolly, why not adamant, or maybe adamant as another option if you get paralyze support or something... the outspeed milo mention should probably go here)

(so... substitute is not encouraged, then why is it slashed? perhaps you would want to "encourage" it more since it is slashed?)

As it stands, Carnivine outspeeds standard Milotic and can OHKO with a boosted Power Whip, or 2HKO with an unboosted one. (moved) An option for Trick Room teams is to remove all Speed EVs, placing them in HP, and running a Relaxed nature as to become as slow as possible. Carnivine is not recommended on Trick Room, since after a Sleep Powder and a Swords Dance, you only get one turn to use an attack. (if it's not recommended, why bring it up in the first place? elaborate or better explain if you want trick room to stay, but i'd personally remove its mentions. i mean, grass + normal really isn't that great in trick room, even with sleep powder and swords dance for that 1 turn to kill something. is that really worth a mention?) Stun Spore is another option used to paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, Scyther, and Swellow before orb activation. Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game. (belongs in the first AC para)

(so yeah, oglemi said add in general teammates to counter general counters, no matter how much it's repeated. can you make a paragraph about that here? thanks. ;D)

(also, for more content suggestions, what about paralyze supporters? last slot can then be synthesis and carnivine can now outrun foes and set-up + heal. slowbro, chansey, and probably registeel seem good partners for this.)

[Team Options]
Carnivine, like all offensive Pokemon, enjoys entry hazards to help gain KOs and do more overall damage to the opposing team. Omastar is notable because it can easily come in on Fire-types such as Arcanine that plague Carnivine and set up any one of the three entry hazards. Rhyperior is an ideal Stealth Rock user that can also deal with physically-inclined Fire-, Bug-, and Flying-types, while also being able to handle Bug-types due to its natural great physical bulk and Flying-types due to a resistance. In addition, Rhyperior can easily switch into Registeel, a common Carnivine counter, and set up Stealth Rock to aid in Carnivine's sweep. Most Water-types can sponge the numerous Fire attacks that are sure to be thrown at Carnivine.

Offensively, Fire-types are an excellent complement to Carnivine. Arcanine can get a free Flash Fire boost on many Fire-types and draws out Pokemon like Milotic, who which can be easily set up on by Carnivine. Arcanine also easily handles any Steel-type and can lure out and KO Pokemon such as Moltres with a Flash Fire-boosted Flare Blitz. Slowking is also a great offensive partner offensively, as it can swap switch into Fire-types and set up Trick Room to remedy Carnivine's low Speed. It can also lure out Grass- and Electric-type moves to allow Carnivine to switch in and set up Swords Dance.

[Optional Changes]
While Carnivine's defenses are not top-notch, access to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and reliable healing in Synthesis means that Carnivine can viably run a support set. Leech Seed can also be used to slowly sap health from opponents the opponent, which is an especially deadly strategy when combined with entry hazards. Carnivine can utilize Growth along with its base 90 Special Attack; (semi-colon) however, (comma) it is not recommended as Carnivine has a bad shallow special movepool and a lack of power when compared to Swords Dance. Crunch can be used over Return on the Swords Dance set to hit Ghost-types more reliably, but Return overshadows it due to its higher Base Power and better coverage when combined with Power Whip. Stockpile can raise Carnivine's defenses, but the prevalence of moves like Sludge Bomb and Flare Blitz, combined with Carnivine's less-than-stellar defenses even after a Stockpile boost, remove most of the move's viability. Finally, Gastro Acid and Worry Seed can render opposing Pokemon who that rely on an their ability near-useless.

[Counters]
Carnivine is easily countered by most Fire-types. Moltres and Arcanine are prime choices due to their bulk and reliable healing. Moltres, however, will have to watch out for Life Orb Return in conjunction with Stealth Rock. Houndoom and Blaziken can also reliably check Carnivine; (semi-colon) however, (comma) their lack of bulk and reliable recovery make them less than desirable. Most Flying-types are extremely dangerous offensively, (remove comma) and can afford themselves a free switch in on Carnivine's STAB attacks. Swellow and Scyther are great examples as they, especially, can come in on Power Whip and wreak havoc with STAB Facade and U-turn, respectively; however,. Once again, they are rather frail, so they should make sure that Stealth Rock is off the field and that they are not switching into Return. Bulky Grass-types such as Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Leafeon can easily take any of Carnivine's attacks, heal off the damage, and retaliate. Registeel resists almost anything that Carnivine has to throw at it, but doesn't appreciate Sleep Powder. (period)

There's some questionable content and non-existent content given by the analysis that I'm just not sure with. Once everything's cleared up, I'd like to run through this analysis again. You can say this was mostly a content check with some rearrangement and a gp feel. Don't worry, it'll be fine at the end (well, the analysis did get better at TO to the end, just worried about the rest).

I'll swing by here again whenever you get to this.

Bad Ass · Feb 3, 2011

Okay, I know you mean well, but all of those changes are not necessary.

You re-wrote the whole analysis.

Please make it more concise.

Flora · Feb 4, 2011

I'm not sure how I can make the edits more concise, so you're just going to have to take the ideas from my post. And yes, I agree that all of those changes are not "necessary", but they are necessary if you want to improve your analysis because as of right now, it's, to put bluntly, kinda bad. I'm sorry about that. (I'm also thinking about mentioning the slashed moves into Set Comments, but it might be okay in AC?)

Unless you want me to write Carnivine then I'm fine with that. If I were you, though. I'd just go along with the edits so I can give this GP 1/2.

Bad Ass · Feb 4, 2011

what's so bad about the analysis content?

franky · Feb 4, 2011

yeah i dont see anything that wrong i mean im not grammar expert but i dont see anything superfluous or trite by any means (which seems to be the main concern with smogon c&c last time i checked)

Oglemi · Feb 4, 2011

I'm actually gonna side on Flora with this one.

The overview is a good indicator that Flora knows what she's talking about, and she says more than you do Bad Ass in fewer sentences. You say that Carnivine has Levitate which gives it a niche as a Grass-type 3 times in 3 sentences without explaining why it's a niche or why it's useful. Flora explains that Carnivine has it and that it's a niche, but also explains why it's a niche and why it's useful, in 2 sentences. Flora then uses the third sentence to explain a little more about Carnivine as a whole.

If you want me to break it down further as to why Flora is right, I will. But I'll just leave this and say that Flora is in the right and you should at least implement a majority of her changes.

EDIT: P.S., it is definitely not about the content. It is about how the content is worded is all.

uragg · Feb 12, 2011

so what's gonna happen with this? hopefully the two parties can come to an agreement so that this analysis can move forward...

Bad Ass · Feb 13, 2011

i agree with some changes, but i feel like most of them are unnecessary. I'd like her to trim it down a bit...

Flora · Feb 13, 2011

Hmm, okay, I could agree with you if you tell me why most of them are unnecessary, because I still feel that my changes will go a long way in helping your analysis grow better. That's all that I'm trying to do. I really wouldn't pester this matter this far if I didn't care, really. If there can be different ideas to improve your analysis besides mine, then we can all chime on and think about it together.

edit: I've been thinking of typing up the stuff for you. I'd keep some of your old stuff just because, but add in some of my stuff that I think should be there as well. Then afterward, I'll put it into a copy/paste form and stamp this. I'm sure it'll work out.

Oglemi · Feb 18, 2011

OK, I talked to BAMF about this on irc, and here's my own GP check of BAMF's write up without any of Flora's checks. This is to see what from our two checks overlaps and determine what absolutely needs to be changed.

add
remove
comments

[Overview]

Carnivine is an odd Grass-type, sporting a decent base 100 Attack and 90 Special Attack and possessing Levitate, which separates Carnivine from its Grass-type brethren. While almost completely outclassed by other Grass-types, Carnivine does have a niche in its Swords Dance set which, while almost always inferior to Leafeon or Venusaur, can work with Levitate, being the only Grass-type to possess it. Levitate is the main reason one would use Carnivine over any of the previously mentioned Pokemon. It affords it some unique set up opportunities, while adding to its bulk and switch-in opportunities With Levitate, Carnivine is completely immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Earthquake, allowing it some unique opportunities to set up a Swords Dance, such as on a Choice Rhyperior's Earthquake (something Venusaur could only ever dream of doing). In short, Carnivine has a niche, but is usually harshly outclassed.

(You should also mention Carnivine's shitty movepool and low defenses as well.)

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance / Substitute
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set takes advantage of Carnivine's good base 100 Attack stat, boosting it to 598 after a single Swords Dance. Levitate gives Carnivine a unique immunity to Toxic Spikes and regular Spikes. This, combined with the ground Ground immunity that Carnivine is afforded, allows it to take hits, conserve more health, and afford more opportunities for it to set up a Swords Dance. Sleep Powder can potentially remove one of Carnivine's counters from the match, which can mean a sweep or a key threat eliminated.

Additional Comments: [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack, having an effective base power of 180 after a Swords Dance boost. Even without a boost, Power Whip will still hit like a truck. 180 base power after the boost. It will hit most Pokemon hard before or after a Swords Dance, and will be Carnivine's main attacking option. Return is a powerful coverage move, and garners good coverage alongside Power Whip. It can dent Pokemon like Arcanine, Leafeon, Scyther, and Swellow hard before attempting a sweep. A mono-attacker can be attempted with Substitute over Return or Swords Dance, as well as Leftovers, to give you a small margin of error. A mono-attacker can be attempted with Substitute and Leftovers over Return and Life Orb. It is not encouraged, (remove comma) however, because mono-Grass is walled by quite a few of the top Pokemon of UU, and without Swords Dance or Life Orb, Carnivine will not be hitting nearly as hard as it needs to be.

As it stands, Carnivine outspeeds standard Milotic and can OHKO it with a boosted Power Whip, or 2HKO with an unboosted one. An option for using Carnivine in a Trick Room team Trick Room teams is to remove all Speed EVs, placing them in HP, and running a Relaxed nature as to become as slow as possible. Overall, Carnivine is not recommended on a dedicated Trick Room team, since after a Sleep Powder and a Swords Dance, you only get one turn to use an attack. Stun Spore is another option used to to use in the last slot to paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, Scyther, and Swellow (before orb activation its Orb activates). Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game.

(You need to mention Synthesis somewhere in here.)

[Team Options]

Carnivine, like all offensive Pokemon, enjoys entry hazards to help gain KOs and do more overall damage to the opposing team. Omastar is a notable teammate because it can easily come in on Fire-types, (comma) such as Arcanine, (comma) that plague Carnivine and set up any one of the three entry hazards. Rhyperior can also deal with Fire-types, while also being able to handle Bug-types, (comma) due to its natural physical bulk, (comma) and Flying-types, (comma) due to a resistance. In addition, Rhyperior can easily switch into Registeel, a common Carnivine counter, and set up Stealth Rock to aid in Carnivine's sweep. Most Water-types can sponge the numerous Fire attacks that are sure to be thrown at Carnivine.

Offensively, Fire-types are an excellent complement to Carnivine. Arcanine can get a free Flash Fire boost on many Fire-types and draws out Pokemon like Milotic, who can be easily set up on by Carnivine. Arcanine also easily handles any Steel-types and can lure out and KO Pokemon such as Moltres with a Flash Fire boosted Flare Blitz. Slowking is also a great partner offensively, as it can swap into Fire-types and set up Trick Room to remedy Carnivine's low speed. It can also lure out Grass- and Electric-type moves to allow Carnivine to set up Swords Dance.

[Optional Changes]

While Carnivine's defenses are not top-notch, access to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and reliable healing in Synthesis mean that Carnivine can viably run a support set. Leech Seed can also be used to slowly sap health from opponents, an especially deadly strategy when combined with entry hazards. Carnivine can utilize Growth along with its base 90 Special Attack,; (replace with semi-colon) however, (comma) it is not recommended as Carnivine has a bad special movepool and a lack of power compared to Swords Dance. Crunch can be used over Return on the Swords Dance set to hit Ghost-types more reliably, but Return overshadows it due to higher base power and better coverage when combined with Power Whip. Stockpile can raise Carnivine's defenses, but the prevalence of moves like Sludge Bomb and Flare Blitz, combined with Carnivine's less-than-stellar defenses even after a Stockpile boost remove most of its viability. Finally, Gastro Acid and Worry Seed can render opposing Pokemon who rely on an ability near-useless, such as Swellow (though Brave Bird will still do a number on Carnivine regardless).

[Counters]

Carnivine is easily countered by most Fire-types. Moltres and Arcanine are prime choices due to their bulk and reliable healing. Moltres, however, will have to watch out for Life Orb Return in conjunction with Stealth Rock. Houndoom and Blaziken can also reliably check Carnivine, however their lack of bulk and reliable recovery make them less than desirable. Most Flying-types are extremely dangerous offensively, and afford themselves a free switch on Carnivine's STAB attacks. Swellow and Scyther, (remove comma) especially, (remove comma) can come in on Power Whip and wreak havoc with STAB Facade and U-turn, respectively. Once again, they are rather frail, so they should make sure that Stealth Rock is off the field and that they are not switching into Return. Bulky Grass-types such as Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Leafeon can easily take any of Carnivine's attacks, heal off the damage, and retaliate. Registeel resists almost anything Carnivine has to throw at it, but doesn't appreciate Sleep Powder. (period)

Here's Flora check for reference:

[Overview]
Carnivine is an odd Grass-type, sporting a decent good (says "good" when reading below) base 100 Attack and 90 Special Attack (seems irrelevant if carnivine isn't using SpA in the first place) and possessing while being the only Grass-type to possess Levitate. While Although it is almost completely outclassed by other Grass-types, such as Leafeon or Venusaur, its access to Levitate means that it does not have to worry about Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Ground-type moves from draining its HP on every switch in, which grants it unique set-up opportunities. Sadly, Carnivine's defenses are only mediocre and its Speed is pitiful, which makes sweeping difficult to pull off at times. (and I won't keep implementing my own writing in your analysis, sorry about that. go ahead and make the final sentence: a wrap-up sentence. something like "While Carnivine isn't going to see much use any time soon, it can still be a usable Pokemon when given the opportunity." could work. feel free to rip ideas out of it.) , Carnivine does have a niche in its Swords Dance set which, while almost always inferior to Leafeon or Venusaur, can work with Levitate, being the only Grass-type to possess it. Levitate is the main reason one would use Carnivine over any of the previously mentioned Pokemon. It affords it some unique set up opportunities, while adding to its bulk and switch-in opportunities (kinda drags on... slapped on the important stuff in the other/new sentences)

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance / Substitute
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
This set takes advantage of Carnivine's good base 100 Attack stat, by boosting it to a immerse 598 after a single Swords Dance. Levitate gives Carnivine a unique immunity to Toxic Spikes and regular Spikes. This, combined with the ground immunity that Carnivine is afforded, allows it to With Levitate, Carnivine can take hits switch in easier, conserve more health, and afford more opportunities for it to set up a Swords Dance. Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack that can hit many Pokemon hard due to its high 180 Base Power (with STAB factored in). To demonstrate Power Whip's strength, it can OHKO the standard Milotic after a Swords Dance boost. Return is used alongside Power Whip to provide powerful neutral coverage. For instance, Carnivine can dent Pokemon such as Arcanine, Leafeon, and Scyther hard with Return before attempting a sweep. Sleep Powder can potentially remove one of Carnivine's counters from the match, which can give Carnivine an easier time sweeping mean a sweep or a key threat eliminated.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack, having 180 base power after the boost. It will hit most Pokemon hard before or after a Swords Dance, and will be Carnivine's main attacking option. Return is a powerful coverage move, and garners good coverage alongside Power Whip. It can dent Pokemon like Arcanine, Leafeon, Scyther, and Swellow hard before attempting a sweep. (moved) A mono-attacker can be attempted with Substitute over Return or (i don't see it slashed with return, which implies it's not a mono-attacker) Swords Dance, as well as with Leftovers as the item, can be used to give you a small margin of error protect Carnivine from status and scout the switch-in. It is not encouraged, however, because mono-Grass is walled by quite a few of the top Pokemon, and without Swords Dance or Life Orb, Carnivine will not be hitting nearly as hard as it needs to be. Stun Spore is another option that can paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, and Scyther. Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game. (discuss synthesis here) (and discuss the ev spread, why jolly, why not adamant, or maybe adamant as another option if you get paralyze support or something... the outspeed milo mention should probably go here)

(so... substitute is not encouraged, then why is it slashed? perhaps you would want to "encourage" it more since it is slashed?)

As it stands, Carnivine outspeeds standard Milotic and can OHKO with a boosted Power Whip, or 2HKO with an unboosted one. (moved) An option for Trick Room teams is to remove all Speed EVs, placing them in HP, and running a Relaxed nature as to become as slow as possible. Carnivine is not recommended on Trick Room, since after a Sleep Powder and a Swords Dance, you only get one turn to use an attack. (if it's not recommended, why bring it up in the first place? elaborate or better explain if you want trick room to stay, but i'd personally remove its mentions. i mean, grass + normal really isn't that great in trick room, even with sleep powder and swords dance for that 1 turn to kill something. is that really worth a mention?) Stun Spore is another option used to paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, Scyther, and Swellow before orb activation. Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game. (belongs in the first AC para)

(so yeah, oglemi said add in general teammates to counter general counters, no matter how much it's repeated. can you make a paragraph about that here? thanks. ;D)

(also, for more content suggestions, what about paralyze supporters? last slot can then be synthesis and carnivine can now outrun foes and set-up + heal. slowbro, chansey, and probably registeel seem good partners for this.)

[Team Options]
Carnivine, like all offensive Pokemon, enjoys entry hazards to help gain KOs and do more overall damage to the opposing team. Omastar is notable because it can easily come in on Fire-types such as Arcanine that plague Carnivine and set up any one of the three entry hazards. Rhyperior is an ideal Stealth Rock user that can also deal with physically-inclined Fire-, Bug-, and Flying-types, while also being able to handle Bug-types due to its natural great physical bulk and Flying-types due to a resistance. In addition, Rhyperior can easily switch into Registeel, a common Carnivine counter, and set up Stealth Rock to aid in Carnivine's sweep. Most Water-types can sponge the numerous Fire attacks that are sure to be thrown at Carnivine.

Offensively, Fire-types are an excellent complement to Carnivine. Arcanine can get a free Flash Fire boost on many Fire-types and draws out Pokemon like Milotic, who which can be easily set up on by Carnivine. Arcanine also easily handles any Steel-type and can lure out and KO Pokemon such as Moltres with a Flash Fire-boosted Flare Blitz. Slowking is also a great offensive partner offensively, as it can swap switch into Fire-types and set up Trick Room to remedy Carnivine's low Speed. It can also lure out Grass- and Electric-type moves to allow Carnivine to switch in and set up Swords Dance.

[Optional Changes]
While Carnivine's defenses are not top-notch, access to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and reliable healing in Synthesis means that Carnivine can viably run a support set. Leech Seed can also be used to slowly sap health from opponents the opponent, which is an especially deadly strategy when combined with entry hazards. Carnivine can utilize Growth along with its base 90 Special Attack; (semi-colon) however, (comma) it is not recommended as Carnivine has a bad shallow special movepool and a lack of power when compared to Swords Dance. Crunch can be used over Return on the Swords Dance set to hit Ghost-types more reliably, but Return overshadows it due to its higher Base Power and better coverage when combined with Power Whip. Stockpile can raise Carnivine's defenses, but the prevalence of moves like Sludge Bomb and Flare Blitz, combined with Carnivine's less-than-stellar defenses even after a Stockpile boost, remove most of the move's viability. Finally, Gastro Acid and Worry Seed can render opposing Pokemon who that rely on an their ability near-useless.

[Counters]
Carnivine is easily countered by most Fire-types. Moltres and Arcanine are prime choices due to their bulk and reliable healing. Moltres, however, will have to watch out for Life Orb Return in conjunction with Stealth Rock. Houndoom and Blaziken can also reliably check Carnivine; (semi-colon) however, (comma) their lack of bulk and reliable recovery make them less than desirable. Most Flying-types are extremely dangerous offensively, (remove comma) and can afford themselves a free switch in on Carnivine's STAB attacks. Swellow and Scyther are great examples as they, especially, can come in on Power Whip and wreak havoc with STAB Facade and U-turn, respectively; however,. Once again, they are rather frail, so they should make sure that Stealth Rock is off the field and that they are not switching into Return. Bulky Grass-types such as Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Leafeon can easily take any of Carnivine's attacks, heal off the damage, and retaliate. Registeel resists almost anything that Carnivine has to throw at it, but doesn't appreciate Sleep Powder. (period)

Now, common themes between the two:

1. The Overview definitely needs to be changed, so make that change. As it is, it's repetitive, to put it bluntly.

2. The middle sentences in the first paragraph of AC need to change. It makes sense the way you have it, it can just simply be worded better. Take your pick of either mine or Flora's.

3. You can add another paragraph about good teammates for Carnivine like what you have in TO. Also, you have to explain Synthesis somewhere.

4. The sentence about Rhyperior in the TO section needs either more commas or Flora's rewording. Take your pick.

5. The rest of the changes in OC and Counters need to be changed. Me and Flora basically had the same changes, Flora had more, and they are warranted, so make those.

What doesn't need to change:

Basically, the other AC paragraph is fine. Flora does have some good rewording and points about stuff you can add there, and you probably could add more about potential teammates, etc., but you don't have to re-write everything there.

Flora, I'm not insulting your checking abilities whatever, what you have are good changes. But they make it so that it's not even BAMF's writing in most places.

Hopefully this fixes the problem that we had here.

Overall, once BAMF makes these changes, it'll be GP 1/2.

Flora · Feb 18, 2011

Okay, I'm fine with what's going to happen then. You're good to go BA.

Bad Ass · Feb 19, 2011

okay, i'll hop on this

Aeron Ee1 · Apr 4, 2011

Got this up-to-date, and should finally be ready for its second GP check.

Zystral · Apr 5, 2011

[Overview]

Carnivine is an odd Grass-type, sporting some good base attacking stats, some weaker defensive stats, a horrible Speed, and Levitate, which is what really separates Carnivine from its Grass-type brethren. While almost completely outclassed by other Grass-types, Carnivine does have a niche in its Swords Dance set which, while almost always inferior to Leafeon or Venusaur, can work with Levitate. Levitate makes Carnivine completely immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Earthquake, allowing it some unique opportunities to set up a Swords Dance, such as on a Choice Rhyperior's Earthquake (something Venusaur could only ever dream of doing). In short, Carnivine has a niche, but is usually harshly outclassed.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return / Substitute
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set takes advantage of Carnivine's best stat - its Attack - and boosts it with Swords Dance before attempting a sweep. Levitate gives Carnivine a unique immunity to Toxic Spikes and Spikes, which when combined with the Ground immunity that Carnivine is afforded, allows it to take hits, conserve more health, and afford more opportunities for it to set up a Swords Dance. Sleep Powder can potentially remove one of Carnivine's counters from the match, which can mean a sweep or a key threat eliminated.

Power Whip is Carnivine's main STAB attack, having an effective Base Power of 180 after the STAB boost, and it will be hitting like a truck even without a Swords Dance. Return is a powerful coverage move, and garners good coverage alongside Power Whip, denting Pokemon like Arcanine, Leafeon, Scyther, and Swellow hard before attempting a sweep. A mono-attacker approach can be attempted with Substitute and Leftovers over Return and Life Orb, but it is not encouraged as mono-Grass is walled by quite a few of the top UU Pokemon, and without Swords Dance or Life Orb, Carnivine will not be hitting nearly as hard as it needs to be.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

As it stands, Carnivine outspeeds standard Milotic and can OHKO it with a boosted Power Whip, or 2HKO with an unboosted one. An option for using Carnivine in a Trick Room team is to remove all Speed EVs, place them in HP, and run a Relaxed nature to become as slow as possible. Carnivine is not recommended on a dedicated Trick Room team, though, since after a Sleep Powder and a Swords Dance, it only gets one turn to use an attack. Synthesis is another option to use in the last slot to give Carnivine a means of easy recovery. On the other hand, Stun Spore can paralyze common switch-ins, such as Venusaur, Mismagius, Scyther, and Swellow (before its Orb activates). Once they are paralyzed, Carnivine can come in later in the game, Swords Dance, and sweep through the paralyzed Pokemon. Sleep Powder is generally superior, however, as it can completely remove a counter from the game.

Carnivine, like all offensive Pokemon, enjoys entry hazards to help gain KOs and do more overall damage to the opposing team. Omastar is a notable teammate because it can easily come in on the Fire-types, such as Arcanine, that plague Carnivine and set up any one of the three entry hazards. Rhyperior can also deal with Fire-types, while also being able to handle Bug-types, due to its natural physical bulk, and Flying-types, due to a resistance. In addition, Rhyperior can easily switch into Registeel, a common Carnivine counter, and set up Stealth Rock to aid in Carnivine's sweep. Most Water-types can sponge the Fire Blasts and Flamethrowers that are sure to be thrown at Carnivine.

Offensively, Fire-types are an excellent complement to Carnivine. Arcanine can get a free Flash Fire boost on many Fire-types and draws out Pokemon like Milotic, who can be easily set up on by Carnivine. Arcanine also easily handles any Steel-types and can lure out and KO Pokemon such as Moltres with a Flash Fire-boosted Flare Blitz. Slowking is also a great partner offensively, as it can switch into Fire-types and set up Trick Room to remedy Carnivine's low Speed. It can also lure out Grass- and Electric-type Pokemon for Carnivine to set up on.

[Other Options]

While Carnivine's defenses are not top-notch, access to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and reliable healing in Synthesis means that Carnivine can viably run a support set. Leech Seed can also be used to slowly sap health from opponents, an especially deadly strategy when combined with entry hazards. While Carnivine can utilize Growth along with its base 90 Special Attack~~; however~~, it is not recommended as Carnivine has a bad special movepool and a lack of power compared to Swords Dance. Crunch can be used over Return on the Swords Dance set to hit Ghost-types more reliably, but Return overshadows it due to its higher Base Power and better coverage when combined with Power Whip. Stockpile can raise Carnivine's defenses, but the prevalence of moves like Sludge Bomb and Flare Blitz, combined with Carnivine's less-than-stellar defenses remove most of its viability. Finally, Gastro Acid and Worry Seed can render opposing Pokemon who rely on an ability near-useless, such as Swellow (though Brave Bird will still do a number on Carnivine).

[Checks and Counters]

Carnivine is easily countered by most Fire-types. Moltres and Arcanine are prime choices due to their bulk and reliable healing. Moltres, however, will have to be careful about switching in too often if Stealth Rock is on the field. Houndoom and Blaziken can also reliably check Carnivine, but their lack of bulk and reliable recovery make them less-than-desirable. Most Flying-types are extremely dangerous offensively, and afford themselves a free switch on Carnivine's STAB attacks. Swellow and Scyther especially can come in on Power Whip and wreak havoc with STAB Facade and U-turn, respectively. Once again, they are rather frail, so they should make sure that Stealth Rock is off the field and that they are not switching into Return. Bulky Grass-types such as Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Leafeon can easily take any of Carnivine's attacks, heal off the damage, and retaliate. Registeel resists almost everything Carnivine can possibly throw at it, but doesn't appreciate Sleep Powder.

good one

Aeron Ee1 · Apr 6, 2011

Thanks, Zystral. So just to say it again, Flashrider57 got this through QC, Bad Ass wrote this up, and I got this through Copyediting. With that out of the way, this is (Done).

Fatecrashers · Apr 27, 2011

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Carnivine (Update)

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