Sayonnara (#1)

Introduction:
Sayonara means ‘Goodbye’ and that is really why I’m posting this team. Unlike other teams this is not a goodbye to gen4, this is a goodbye to the game of competitive pokemon. I have found this game ‘stale’ for a long time and I no longer get enjoyment out of battling. As I played this game I set out achievements for myself and that is what has kept me going for the past 6 months. However, after a steady climb to success, I have now achieved more than I ever thought I could achieve. Alas, with no more goals and no enjoyment after more than two years of playing this game, I must say goodbye.

The team itself is what I would consider classic ‘geo offense’, using a compilation of what I consider the top threats in this Metagame to create a solid offensive team. The team uses the standard FWG, Flygon, Ghost, Steel backbone which seems to be popular at the moment. I’m not one for using unreliable ‘gimmick’ sets, so this is just a fairly standard offensive team. In a few places this team sacrifices an average match-up vs every single team, to gain a better match-up vs most teams. I have actually found this to be more reliable as the teams record shows, but I would prefer to have a 'solid' match-up against every threat. This team is not as effective as it once was and has trouble with non standard teams so I am wondering if there are any quick fixes that can patch this.

Sayonara is my most successful team to date:
- No.1 on Pokemon Online server
- No.1 on Smogon server
- 100% win record in the 7th annual Smogon tournament (ST7).


Teambuilding:
Some people disagree with showing a teambuilding section because no team is, or should, be made in such a simple step by step process. However, I think that it is a great way to show why each member has made onto the team and helps you (the reader) understand my thought process. It's also good for lazy people (like me) who cannot be bothered to read the whole thread xD.


The essential core of the team is the Lucario/Suicune combo. They are both extremely deadly sweepers capable of crushing unprepared or weakened teams and work well together due to their offensive synergy. Lucario can set up on Pokemon like Blissey and Snorlax who wall Suicune. Suicune can set up on Physical walls like Gyarados and Hippowdon who wall lucario. Suicune also has the ability to lure in and weaken/take out pokemon like Shaymin and the Rotom forms that check lucario.


Sp.def Roserade was also new to me when I originally started making the team, but has great synergy with the Lucario Suicune combo. Roserade resists both of Suicunes weaknesses (grass and electric) and can set up layers of spikes on these pokemon. Spikes are really useful for Lucario allowing him to break through many of his grounded counters. Roserade can also switch into pokemon like Suicune, Rotom, Shaymin etc. who counter Lucario. Finally Roserade absorbs toxic spikes that would otherwise prevent a Suicune sweep.


It is odd in OU to complete a FWG core with a fire type. Heatran is chosen for being a key member vs Stall teams, Luring in and taking out Blissey can be really useful. Heatran is one of the few effective SR users for offensive teams and also has a good lead matchup. With the amassing set of resistances it’s no wonder this is the most used pokemon in the game.


Gengar has great synergy with Lucario, being immune to fighting and Ground, while having a weakness to dark and ghosts. Gengar can also switch into physical walls such as Hippowdon and Gliscor who can't touch Gengar back. Gengar is also really useful vs Stall teams, and can be used as a great lure for choiced dark and ghosts attacks, which helps Lucario set up.


I chose Flygon because I needed a revenge killer and Flygon is one of the best pokemon for keeping many OU threats in 'check'. Flygon being a dragon type brings loads of resistances to the team, which makes it easy to bring him in. Flygon also works extremely well with spikes, forcing extra switches with the use of U-turn, but also makes an effective Outrage sweeper with spikes support.





Heatran (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 32 Hp / 252 SAtk / 228 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

When I made the team there were 2 types of leads in the metagame:
- Lead Machamp
- Leads that beat Machamp

Originally specs Heatran became a dominant lead, having a good matchup vs both of the above. However a desire came for a Heatran set that was not choiced by spectacles and could also beat Machamp , in came life orb modest Heatran. With this set Heatran nets some nice OHKO's on Occa metagross (98.1% - 115.4%), 252hp Hippowdon (101.7% - 120%) and Machamp (96.1% - 113.4%). The lead Metagame has changed and this Heatran set is not as effective as it was in its prime. Hidden power grass is for the sneaky OHKO on Swamperts. Explosion is a great move on Heatran, especially when powered by a life orb. Heatran is a key member for the team, setting up stealth rocks and ripping holes in the opponent’s team.



Flygon (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- U-turn

I rely on the reliable. Flygon is widely considered the best revenge killer in OU, his speed allows him to outpace all the current dragon dancers. His amassing typing not only gives him easy switch-ins, but is also a potent offensive stab combo. Flygon works really well on this team because he abuses spikes so well. U-turn allows me to scout the opponent’s team and rack up spikes damage. I maxed out speed because I win so many speed tie’s vs other Flygons (probably because they are not actually speed ties xD). Flygon holds the team together and once the opponent’s steels have been worn down by spikes he makes a great outrage sweeper. Stone edge is a nice filler move, covering Gyarados, Dragonite and Zapdos, but also can be used to finish off pokemon like Gengar, when I don't want to outrage.



Roserade (F) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Spikes
- Stun Spore

Roserade is a key member defensively helping check pokemon like Vaporeon, Suciune, Rotom-A etc. and finds it very easy to switch in and spikes up. Vaporeon and Rotom are the reason I chose energy ball, as they are not 2hkoed by grass knot. Hp fire is for coverage, and with 8 speed ev's I out speed other Roserades, which is really useful. I use max sp.def because Roserade is never at full hp, so the standard defense ev's were not helping me against Scizors. Spikes are extremely useful for this team, every member enjoys there presence and helps me bulldoze my way through teams late game. I am using stun spore because my team is offensive and it appreciates the speed loss more than rest or leech seed. Finally, I only have black sludge because I have a Gengar as well, so I don't mind too much if my opponent tries to trick it back onto my team.



Gengar (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Focus Blast
- Pain Split

The king of this metagame, this set crushes everything. He has the most useful typing he could ask for offensively, with 3 immunities and plenty of choiced pokemon in the metagame its easy to get a free sub up and tear some holes in the oposing team. Gengar also makes a perfect counter to Gliscor who would otherwise trouble my team.

Now the key question here, is why not use a rotom form?
1) Offensive starmie 1hko's both Gengar and Rotom
2) Defensive starmie fails to 1hko either
3) Gengar outspeeds infernape
4) Gengar walls gliscor
5) Gengar is a better pokemon offensively i.e. he causes more pain to other teams than a Rotom form would do

Rotom may be more bulky, but for spin blocking he is just as useless as Gengar. I use a touch and go spin block stratergy, so in comes gengar on the predicted rapid spin, then out to a counter. Then I try to situate the game so they won't get there spinner back in. Heavily prediction based and highly unreliable, but Rotom doesn't work as well with my team and Gengar does his job. Gengar is also bait for Pursuit/Outrage/Stone edge etc. with make great set up fodder for Lucario.



Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 176 Hp / 112 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

This is one of the hardest things to check/counter for offensive teams, a lot of people say FWG is an unhealthy concept, but F/W is fairly standard and a grass type is the easiest way for an offensive team to be covered against this thing. There is no commonly used set that can OHKO Suicune after a calm mind, which means Suicune is causing pretty much guaranteed to cause damage against anything on an offensive team. Suicune also pairs up well with Lucario, the famous combo are very effective at sweeping through teams. I play this Suicune very aggressively as it's not too important defensively for this team. So if the cost is clear, Suicune is going sailing. Due to the teams aggressive use of Suicune and the suggestions from various people I have chosen Hydro pump over Surf, Hydro pump also does slightly more in the long run (including misses) but the difference is basically insignificant between the two.



Lucario (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- ExtremeSpeed
- Bullet Punch

Lucario, Lucario, Lucario. I don't actually use this pokemon as much as my previous RMT's would suggest. Lucario is the best sword dance sweeper in OU, with a 120 base power stab move and the best priority move in the game which also offers perfect covereage vs non ghosts. You may wonder why I'm using bullet punch, well the extreme speed + bullet punch combo is something that has been popular since the rise of scarf tar. Crunch is only commonly needed for Rotom forms, as defensive celebi, dusknoir etc. are not very common anymore. I chose bullet punch because Rotom is already well covered, while scarf tar and Gengar not so much. I have also found on friendcodes.com where i do most of my battling alot of people use shuca dd tyranitar, and Lucario helps revenge kill that. Sadly bullet punch forces me to use an adamant nature to get the garunteed KO on both Tyranitar and Gengar, however I only loose out vs Suicune really. Adamant also has it's uses vs denfesive teams and gets Ko's vs pokemon like Flygon that Jolly would not.

Oh, this team :o I remember battling this a few times. Obviously a great team considering you're success with it and I know these standard teams operate. It's as you said, no gimmicks just run what's reliable. I really don't have much to add apart from give props and it's sad to see you quit from competitive battling but I guess everyone has to :p

I personally am a bit spektical about the double priority on Luca but it's obv worked for you so w/e :p

Great team and good job etc.

Looks solid. I'd use HP Grass > Earth Power on Heatran to get the OHKO on Swampert leads, since opposing Heatran usually have Shuca and are faster. Suicune is pretty much the best Heatran switch-in anyway, so you don't have problems with it. I've always used 36 HP on Heatran for extra bulk, since 220 Spd is all that's necessary to outpace Jolly Tyranitar, but that's a pretty minor point.

Flygon doesn't need Thunderpunch since Suicune checks Gyarados really well, so you can use Stone Edge for Zapdos and Gengar.

Opposing Suicune actually seem a bit problematic, since Roserade doesn't do enough after they get a couple of Calm Mind boosts in. I suppose you could survive an Ice Beam and Stun Spore them though, which makes them easier to deal with. Anyway good team and good luck!

george182 said:

However a desire came for a Heatran set that was not choiced by spectacles

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I'm sorry i'm not that great at rating so i won't comment but this is funny so LOL comment.

I also see CB Scizor being a small problem for you a if suicune goes down it can pretty much sweep your team but i could be completly wrong.

CB Scizor isn't that much of a problem with both Heatran and Lucario.

oops i forgot about heatran, but personally i always stay in on lucario with CB scizor as they always SD

Great team man. It's obviously very successful, so I'm just going to nitpick some stuff.

On Heatran I'd recommend an EV spread of 144 HP / 252 SAtk / 40 SDef / 72 Spd, while dropping Earth Power and Explosion for Hidden Power Grass and Taunt. Thing is - pretty much all lead Heatran nowadays are Timid, and you cannot afford to run Timid yourself because you then lose the ability to KO Machamp, not to mention the fact that you can't even KO opposing Tran through their Shuca. So, Earth Power is pretty useless, while HP Grass gets a sweet surprise kill on Swampert. Taunt is more of a preference thing, but it really helps against stall - prevents Gyara from Resting after taking Rocks and an LO Overheat, as well as stopping Blissey from doing Blissey things. You can keep Explosion if you'd like though, because this team does have trouble with Zapdos and Togekiss. The EVs give Heatran more of a tank approach - max SpA is obvious, the speed outruns min spe Rotom-A, HP gives the best possible Life Orb number, and the rest is dumped into SpD to take random Thunderbolts from the likes of Rotom-A / Zapdos / Jolteon better.

Another preference thing is Hydro Pump over Surf on Suicune, as the extra damage output is noticeable and beneficial in most cases at the expense of some reliability, but why be able to hit when you can't kill, you know? Also, since you really rely on Suicune to check alot of various mons, I'd suggest investing in a bulkier spread - the one I have in mind is 196 Spe / 252 SAtk / 60 HP, it'll help when taking hits while still dishing out good damage. Speed EVs outrun Adamant Lucario.

That's all I can suggest. Great team, good luck.

Cool team. My only problem is that you seem to have a Zapdos issue. Sets like Life Orb wipe away much of your team with powerful STAB attacks and you don't have that much to do good damage to it. Sets like Sub Roost can stall you out quite easily and you don't really have much of anything that you can do, especially since Suicune gets outrun in this situation. I encourage you to try out a Scarf Rotom-W over your Gengar. Although you listed the benefits that your Gengar gives you, I firmly believe that Scarf Rotom would be able to assist you so much more. It gives you another electric resist which will help you versus threats like Zapdos a lot more then Gengar will. Not only that, but Rotom will help you with Pokemon such as Jolly Bullet Punch Lucario, which can sweep your entire team after a Swords Dance. Although, this probably isn't a change that you want to make, I really believe that it will benefit you if you decide to keep using this team. Another suggestion that you may decide to try, is running Toxic over Thunderpunch on Flygon. Although this is kind of a quick fix for pokemon like Zapdos, it will help you if you don't feel the need to replace Gengar. Since Suicune checks Gyarados with ease, you have no need to fear it at all. This is another place where the benefit of Rotom comes in. If you decide to opt for using Scarf Rotom-W over Gengar, not only will your offensive synergy not be tampered with, but you can easily run Toxic on Flygon while having two Gyarados checks in other slots.

That is all I have to say. Good Luck with this team and congratulations on your great success with it.

Hey, george182. This seems like a pretty solid team (as demonstrated by your immense success with it; great job on getting to round 5 in ST7!), so the changes I'll be suggesting will be more or less minor. Firstly, I agree with some of the previous posters in replacing Earth Power with Hidden Power Grass to defeat Swampert leads; it's not like you'll be able to do anything against Timid, Shuca Berry variants, anyways, and Suicune takes care of them fairly easily, too, whereas Machamp needs to be defeated early in the game, as it will undoubtedly annoy you throughout the game if it is not. Also, agreeing that Stone Edge should be used over Thunderpunch on Flygon. I agree with running Hydro Pump over Surf on Suicune, as the power increase is quite significant, and it will, in simple words, just help keep up your teams momentum, while also aiding a possible Suicune sweep. Lastly, I suggest trying out Grass Knot on Roserade as this may help lessen the slight problem your team has with opposing Suicune, as Faladran pointed out; Rotom and Vaporeon are also covered by the rest of your team, so any negative effects this change may have will be minor. Amazing team, and good luck in the future.

Very solid team, I only have a few nitpicks. Offensive Suicune can be a problem as Roserade isn't doing much to it with a calm energy ball, and it also outspeeds luke. LO Dragonite with extremespeed can be very annoying as well since it can potentially OHKO Suicune with outrage and pick of a weakened Flygon. It's situational, but not unseen stuff. Quick fixes would be to run jolly on luke, and to buff up Suicune's defensives. With jolly, you beat the incredibly common Suicune, and because of spikes you should still be able to OHKO scarftar with a +2 BP. Since Suicune is reall common, it's good to know you can just outspeed it without having to wear it down. Bullet punch is excellent because of all the Gengars. For Suicune, running 176 Hp / 112 SpA / 224 Spe (or more HP) allows you to deal with Dragonite and Gyarados a bit more safely.

Hey George182,

Pretty good team you have here, which is obviously shown on your results with it.
This team reminds me of Legendary_07's team actually. Anyway, there isn't much I can suggest but I shall try anyway.

As others have mentioned, you might really want to try Stone Edge over Thunderpunch on Flygon. This will still deal with Gyarados but you will also have a stronger move to use against the likes of Zapdos and Dragonite (you don't want to be stuck in Outrage early game).

Perhaps a funny suggestion but have you ever considered using Hypnosis on Gengar? Putting opposing pokemon to sleep will give you numerous of situation where you can set up. Either with Roserade laying down Spikes or with Lucario. You can use in instead of Pain Split. But since you lose a form of recovery (an unreliable one but still) you could also use Black Sludge instead of Life Orb. Or Leftovers of course.

Another suggestion that might help you a bit is Roar instead of Hidden Power [Electric] on Suicune. Although you lose some coverage, it is always nice to have a phazer on a team and this way you can really abuse you entry hazards. It might also help you in defeating threat like CM Jirachi and CM Suicune who are trying to set on you simultaneously. When you're at +6 you'll just Roar them out and deal some hefty damage. Offensive Suicune really appreciates the extra power Hydro Pump has over Surf, so you might want to try that out as well. You could also use a slightly bulkier spread here. A spread of 236 HP / 44 SpAtk / 228 Spe allows Suicune to have an easier time dealing with opposing Flygon, Gyarados, Dragonite, ....

Oh and I also agree with Faladran in that Modest Heatran shouldn't run max speed. Instead you could add some more EV's into bulk. I suggest a spread of 32 HP / 252 SAtk / 228 Spe. This way you'll outspeed 40 Spe Jirachi who outspeed Jolly Ttar, you'll never know when that comes in handy. If you keep using Explosion on Heatran then I suggest using a Rash nature so Explosion's power isn't weakened.

Hope this suggestions helped! Good luck with the team and congrats on your success with it. ^^

Delko said:

Perhaps a funny suggestion but have you ever considered using Hypnosis on Gengar? Putting opposing pokemon to sleep will give you numerous of situation where you can set up. Either with Roserade laying down Spikes or with Lucario. You can use in instead of Pain Split. But since you lose a form of recovery (an unreliable one but still) you could also use Black Sludge instead of Life Orb. Or Leftovers of course.

Another suggestion that might help you a bit is Roar instead of Hidden Power [Electric] on Suicune. Although you lose some coverage, it is always nice to have a phazer on a team and this way you can really abuse you entry hazards. It might also help you in defeating threat like CM Jirachi and CM Suicune who are trying to set on you simultaneously. When you're at +6 you'll just Roar them out and deal some hefty damage. Offensive Suicune really appreciates the extra power Hydro Pump has over Surf, so you might want to try that out as well.

Oh and I also agree with Faladran in that Modest Heatran shouldn't run max speed. Instead you could add some more EV's into bulk. I suggest a spread of 32 HP / 252 SAtk / 228 Spe. This way you'll outspeed 40 Spe Jirachi who outspeed Jolly Ttar, you'll never know when that comes in handy. If you keep using Explosion on Heatran then I suggest using a Rash nature so Explosion's power isn't weakened.

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Just want to point some things out.

I agree he should use Stone Edge on Flygon but it is for that reason he needs HP Electric on Cune, as Bulky DD Gyara doesn't die to Jolly Stone Edge, and can just DD again and kill Flygon, using Taunt to stop Cune from phazing it. Having Cune as a Gyara check is essential, since alot of people abuse the fact that Flygon is the only way of checking Gyara in a team and use it specifically to get setups for Pokemon such as AgiliGross (which could sweep this team if given a setup opportunity). As I stated in my first post, Hydro Pump should definitely go over Surf.

Cutting into Heatran's stellar SpD just to power up Explosion should not be done - that SpD stat is one of the reasons he's so fearsome. Since this is an LO Tran, I think he should just stick with Modest, as you don't lose any important KOs thanks to that boost, but if you really don't want to cut attack, use Mild to weaken a somewhat useless defense stat.

Hypnosis Gar isn't bad but it's just not suited for this team. SubSplit Gar+Spikes really decimates stall, which could really be a problem otherwise.

Blazin Kickin Chicken said:

I agree he should use Stone Edge on Flygon but it is for that reason he needs HP Electric on Cune, as Bulky DD Gyara doesn't die to Jolly Stone Edge, and can just DD again and kill Flygon, using Taunt to stop Cune from phazing it. Having Cune as a Gyara check is essential, since alot of people abuse the fact that Flygon is the only way of checking Gyara in a team and use it specifically to get setups for Pokemon such as AgiliGross (which could sweep this team if given a setup opportunity). As I stated in my first post, Hydro Pump should definitely go over Surf.

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Stone Edge on Flygon is overall more useful as Thunderpunch doesn't provide much more coverage outside of OHKO'ing Gyarados. Stone Edge also allows Zapdos (another possible threat), Dragonite, ... to be hit.
Roar is just such a useful move on Spikestack teams likes this one and since this team doesn't have a phazer, Suicune makes a good candidate. Although Rare, Baton Pass teams are dangerous to all teams that don't use a phazer. Curse Snorlax is only covered by Lucario, Calm Mind Jirachi can also be a threat if Flygon isn't around, Offensive Suicune, ... Suicune can Roar out all aformentioned threats, letting them take more entry hazard damage and they loose there boosts. At full health Suicune still beats Gyarados even without Hidden Power [Electric]. After 2 switch-ins Gyarados is KO'ed by Stone Edge. Most Gyarados switch out against Suicune anyway and if they don't they are Roar'ed out (Gyarados rarely use Taunt against offensive Cune). If Gyarados is still a problem Hidden Power [Electric] can be use on Heatran, on who Gyarados loves to set up on, instead of Explosion.

Cutting into Heatran's stellar SpD just to power up Explosion should not be done - that SpD stat is one of the reasons he's so fearsome. Since this is an LO Tran, I think he should just stick with Modest, as you don't lose any important KOs thanks to that boost, but if you really don't want to cut attack, use Mild to weaken a somewhat useless defense stat.

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As you stated this is a LO offensive Heatran so it isn't meant to take hits. It's just a matter of preference if you want Heatran to take Special hits slightly better or (the main reason why Heatran uses a -SDef instead of -Def nature on the analysis dex) Bullet punch from Scizor and the likes. With no investment 10% less in a defensive stat doesn't make a real difference. Mild of Rash is just superficial.

OMG this team is perfect! It's the kind of team I've been looking for!

I'm going to try out this team ASAP!!

lol stealer :p
Very very nice core, with amazing pokes and sets. With Gengar as your last open slot, and with a good PSplit set, i'm sure this is the main contributing factor to your success.
I'd say for you to test an hp fire w/ lefties set, but since you've had so much success, why change it. but on the flip side, its always good to try new things to improve. This improves your chance of sweeping, getting scizor and other counters out of the way.
Good rade, cune, gon, and luke sets. (nice EVs on rade btw)
I'd think about adjusting your tran to sash or shuca, seeing as the meta has changed a lot since the machamp lead days, as well as being able to come back in later and possibly using the shuca against Flygon's and Shaymin's. W/ a shuca berry:
Standard Jolly nature scarfgon does 80.5% - 95.4% to tran, while without it it is an easy OHKO.
Timid Shaymin LO earth power does 63.2% - 74.3%.
Modest Shaymin LO earth power does 68.7% - 81.1%
Modest Shaymin Leftovers earth power does 52.6% - 62.5%

So, seeing as these cannot OHKO you and these are some common pokes that may try to switch in on you or try to just OHKO you thinking your a Sub set for example. Because really, who caries scarftran anymore in gen 4 unless you are playing for lulz :p

Great team, gl!

Yeah, this is a pretty nice team george (if kinda boring =P )

Anyway, the main threat I can see is Starmie.

I really don't understand how this team beats a well played Starmie without losing multiple pokemon. If Roserade switches into an Ice Beam then its gone. You really only have Flygon's U-turn as recourse, which doesn't get close to killing. A LO version with Recover could really go right through you.
Extremespeed on Lucario helps, of course, since it will finish Starmie off after a U-turn from Flygon.

Really not sure how to address this though. There's also a huge weakness to opposing Suicune, either offensive or with Roar. You can fix this by running Toxic Spikes on Roserade (which helps a LOT handling some minor threats to this team as well) but Starmie is still an issue.

Good luck!

lol bubbly, I know there is nothing new here, just the standard FWG, Flygon, Ghost, Steel, which is pretty typical offense these days.

I havn't been ignoring the comments btw, I have just sat back to see what most people think.

After consideration I agree that thunderpunch should change with stone edge on Flygon, which is what I have done.

Alot of people wanted me to bulk up suicune more, I have always been a fan of max/max Cune, but bulky Cune capitalizes on what Suicune does best, which is tanking through teams, so I chose the 176 Hp / 112 SpA / 224 Spe suggested by Eggbert.

The next popular move was HP grass on Heatran, I realized how little I used earth-power (if ever), and HP grass is a much better alternative and Ive always had problems with lead Swampert. With HP grass there is no need for max speed and therefore I dropped my speed to just above 36 speed base 100's.

I declined the idea of Hydro pump on Suicune, it doesn't gain any important KO's that I'm aware of and when laddering or in a tournament you want to minimize the chance of hax screwing you over (unless your a scrub and if you know me, then you'll know I hate luck reliant scrubby tactics xD). Hypnosis Gengar is something I despise with a passion lol, 60% accuracy FTL. Sub split wrecks teams, so I'm not inclined to change it.

I used grass knot originally on Roserade, however after a combo of both Rotom and Vaporeon caused my team so much trouble, I actually have nothing else for Vaporeon so energy ball is a necessity. Stun spore cripples Suicune enough, that I can fine off an energy ball and finish off Suicune with my adamant Lucario. In short, grass knot doesn't help much vs Suicune anyway (it only has 100 base power vs 80).

I originally had toxic spikes when I came up with the Roserade/Suicune combo, but toxic spikes are a pile of scrub tactics. They hit like 1/6 pokemon on average I find, compared to 4/6 with spikes, not to mention they are easily removed. I also find with an offensive team like mine, I find spikes are more useful.

But thanks for all the comments, I hope I covered everything. Feel free to steal the team btw, I embrace the idea that people want to use my team.

george182 said:

1176 Hp / 112 SpA / 224 Spe

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I like this team a lot, and congrats on your achievements on it. Its pretty solid, and I can see how it works.

Do teach me how to invest 1176 HP btw(pedantic errors ftw) :)

Hey,

Great team, and congrats on your success with it. I'd strongly recommend trying Hydro Pump over Surf on Suicune, especially with the fewer Sp Atk evs. There is some risk, but the potential payoff is great against Rotom, Scizor and the like. A 112 Sp Atk Hydro Pump is also more powerful than a max Sp Atk Surf.

There isn't really much to say after all the rates you've gotten, good luck with the team!

Hey I got the message, very little to say after the rates and the team is pretty straightforward. I'll just nitpick some sets. Even if you don't think Earth Power is a good move (which I do, by the way), I would at least change HP on Heatran to Electric- it's amazingly useful for killing Gyarados on stall teams and Swampert leads are almost nowhere to be found nowadays. Every other water is hit exactly the same. The other thing I'm a little uncertain about is HP Fire on Roserade- I personally don't see the appeal. The only real use seems to be nailing Forretress but I think thats rather situational and not very useful considering other options- namely Rest, which works amazingly with natural cure to keep Roserade alive again the threats that he needs to outlast like Starmie or Zapdos.

Other than that, not much to add, I hope this helps!

Sorted out the 1176 hp ev error, thanks Destiny Warrior

Im liking hydro pump on Suicune now, its working nicely as I use Suicune aggressively with this team.

I have chosen not to use Hp electric, as Swamperts in general are a pain for my team, as they can wall flygon and nothing likes to switch in against them. So luring them in with Heatran and then KOing with hp grass is very beneficial. I don't like to risk staying in against Gyarados anyway, as some are faster.

Finally, I despise rest Roserade on offensive teams. After testing it, the opponent knows your going to switch, its really obvious, because there is no point for you to stay in once you have rested. I like leech seed, but HP fire is useful for coverage, hitting Shaymin, Lucario, Skarmory, Forretress (who could spin my spikes otherwise). I also outspeed most other Roserade and Hp fire capitalizes on that. Hp fire also does more to pokemon like Gengar, who Roserade helps counter.

thanks for your rates.