1. The moderators of this forum are The Immortal, Chloe., and E4 Flint.
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  3. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Metagame 1v1

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by The Immortal, Nov 21, 2016.

  1. The Immortal

    The Immortal They Don't Want None
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Other Metas Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    5,838
    Art by h_n_g_m_n

    [​IMG]

    Welcome to the 1v1 discussion thread!

    1v1 is a metagame where you bring three Pokémon to Team Preview and pick only one to defend you, meaning predictions and tough choices are to be made, and teambuilding skill is ever so important.

    This metagame will be run myself, Dream Eater Gengar and Uselesscrab. The initial banlist resembles that of OU, and we will add or remove bans as the 1v1 metagame develops.

    Banlist & Clauses:

    Pokémon:
    Arceus, Darkrai, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Defense, Deoxys-Normal, Dialga, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Kyurem-White, Lugia, Lunala, Marshadow, Mega Kangaskhan (Kangaskhanite), Mega Salamence (Salamencite), Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-Sky, Solgaleo, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Zygarde-Complete (Power Construct)

    Items: Focus Sash

    Moves: Perish Song

    The following clauses are in effect:
    Accuracy Moves Clause: A Pokémon may not have the moves Flash, Kinesis, Leaf Tornado, Mirror Shot, Mud Bomb, Mud-Slap, Muddy Water, Night Daze, Octazooka, Sand Attack, or Smokescreen in its moveset.
    Endless Battle Clause: Players cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from being able to end the game without forfeiting.
    Evasion Moves Clause: A Pokémon may not have either Double Team or Minimize in its moveset.
    Moody Clause: A team cannot have a Pokémon with the ability Moody.
    OHKO Clause: A Pokémon may not have the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold in its moveset.
    Species Clause: A player cannot have two Pokémon with the same National Pokédex number on a team.

    1v1 is playable on Pokémon Showdown!
  2. DEG

    DEG I could not plan this.
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    915
    1v1 Suspect Philosophy

    As an attempt to draw visible traces between what is broken and what isn't broken, I will be posting the 1v1 tiering philosophy that should be referred as a base to construct your arguments on it. We definitely don't want this metagame to turn into Ubers 1v1 nor PU 1v1, we want to build a strict line and finish from a plethora of arguments with different philosophies in head. We won't follow OU or other metagame's tiering philosophy as 1v1 is a different concept which doesn't respond to the call. By studying the thread and the ladder for months, we have concluded:

    1) A Pokemon is deemed suspect worthy if it's overcentralizing in the 1v1 metagame, a significantly high usage justifies the large scale it takes in the metagame which is unhealthy and needs to be looked on. This is 1v1 and not a battle between two teams, a Pokemon with high usage proves that its strong and easily splashable on most teams.

    2) By definition a broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters. Let's define C&C in 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another with a specific set but if it uses another it may lose. A counter is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon no matter what it runs. Ex: Mega Blastoise is a check to Mega Charizard Y if it runs full spdf and mirror coat but Chansey is a counter to Mega Charizard Y as it can always beat it. A pokemon is deemed broken if it defeats at least more than the half of the metagame with a set or its other viable sets without having an opportunity cost, that was the case of Mega Salamence which could easily adjust between two sets and defeat more than half of the meta.

    3) We do not judge by playstyle since this is 1v1. If a Pokemon defeats a stall team in 1v1 it shouldn't be looked into due to them having a lot of choices to pick from and being having only two-third of the team stallish doesn't stop the last member from defeating a more offensive Pokemon. Ex: If Mega Charizard Y defeats a stall team made of Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Mandibuzz it's not the Pokemon that is broken, the team doesn't synergize to defeat common threats in the metagame which is your fault, same goes to offensive teams that loses to Chansey. They are S ranked for a reason.

    4) We are not looking to make low ranked Pokemon viable in the metagame by banning high ranked Pokemon. It's not our fault if they weren't gifted with a good stats, and movesets to be viable in 1v1.

    5) Please post your arguments smartly, and do not attack someone's else opinion or attack them directly, this is highly discouraged as it lowers your image and make people avoid listening to you. Some guidelines of posting are: Provide the topic of the Pokemon that you think is deemed suspect worthy, discuss it through the tiering philosophy by providing replays, calcs or strong arguments. Your arguments should provide a clear view of the Pokemon and how unhealthy it is, a list of Pokemon that can defeat it and if it has more than one set then list its sets. Don't bring up the kind of sets that are horrendously niche, they should have some amount of usage on the ladder.

    6) Being an unpredictable Pokemon shouldn't be a strong trait to base your arguments on but still is a way of view and can be looked on. This is 1v1, it's sure that a lot of Pokemon will have different sets to check their checks and derailing from the norm is always something we should encourage as it helps in giving more life to the metagame. So, let's set up a clear definition of what an unpredictable Pokemon is: It's a Pokemon that can make use of different sets with little to no opportunity cost and still be able to beat half of the metagame with whatever set it runs. Per example an unpredictable Pokemon would be Mega Gyarados as it has a big movepool to pick from, and can adjust itself to beat some Pokemon, but that doesn't make it broken since it comes with some opportunity cost.

    7) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other.

    8) Don't bring up complex bans they are unneeded and just creates more confusion. Per example if Trick+Choice Item is broken it's not the strategy itself but the user that makes it broken, taking per example Chansey and Meloetta. Chansey will defeat Meloetta even if its tricked if the Meloetta lacks Psyshock but if Meloetta has Psyshock it will be able to defeat Chansey.

    9) If good arguments are made against a Pokemon the Tier Leader has the right to suspect it, we aren't looking for quick banning Pokemon since the community's opinion is valuable and they make the metagame. If a Pokemon didn't get banned due to a suspect don't re-talk about it even if you still think it's broken, we work on majority.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
    Ransei, The Idealistic, Mq and 8 others like this.
  3. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,528
    By Kentari
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Aegislash @ Ghostium Z
    Ability: Stance Change
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 1 Spe
    - King's Shield
    - Shadow Ball
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Flash Cannon

    Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
    Ability: Tough Claws
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 60 Def / 68 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Meteor Mash
    - Thunder Punch
    - Earthquake

    Donphan @ Rockium Z
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 19 Spe
    - Head Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Counter
    - Ice Shard


    By MaceMaster
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Barbaracle @ Rockium Z
    Ability: Tough Claws
    EVs: 116 HP / 208 Atk / 184 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shell Smash
    - Superpower
    - Stone Edge
    - Razor Shell

    Genesect @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Download
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpA
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Bug Buzz
    - Flamethrower
    - Flash Cannon
    - Thunderbolt

    Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
    Ability: Multiscale
    EVs: 236 HP / 116 Atk / 156 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Fire Punch
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Extreme Speed


    By Gross Sweep
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Play Rough
    - Iron Head
    - Sucker Punch

    Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 96 Def / 100 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage
    - Crunch

    Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
    Ability: Tough Claws
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Flare Blitz
    - Will-O-Wisp


    By UnleashOurPassion
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    My ELO (Golem) @ Groundium Z
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Tomb
    - Counter

    Lord of Hax (Durant) @ Choice Band
    Ability: Hustle
    EVs: 228 Atk / 28 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stone Edge
    - Iron Head
    - Thunder Fang
    - Superpower

    Domination (Kyurem-Black) @ Icium Z
    Ability: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 156 Def / 44 SpD / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Freeze Shock
    - Outrage
    - Substitute
    - Fusion Bolt


    By charizard8888
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
    Ability: Teravolt
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Freeze Shock
    - Outrage
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Iron Head

    Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
    Ability: Drought
    EVs: 72 HP / 156 Def / 64 SpA / 216 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Air Slash / Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Blast Burn
    - Solar Beam
    - Substitute

    Donphan @ Groundium Z
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Head Smash
    - Counter


    By Kentari
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Magearna @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Soul-Heart
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Fleur Cannon
    - Flash Cannon
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
    Ability: Mega Launcher
    EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Dark Pulse
    - Hydro Cannon
    - Dragon Pulse

    Dragonite @ Choice Band
    Ability: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Fire Punch
    - Iron Head
    - Earthquake
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    DEG, Ransei, charizard8888 and 7 others like this.
  4. DEG

    DEG I could not plan this.
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    915
    1v1 UU (open)

    [​IMG]
    Rules: This is standard 1v1 but with a twist, any Pokemon that has usage over 3.41% isn't allowed to be used, we use our own 1v1 UU banlist and it will be updated monthly.
    Added Clauses: None
    Banlist: Gyaradosite, Tapu Koko, Kyurem-Black, Charizardite X, Metagrossite, Charizardite Y, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, Heracronite, Donphan, Golem, Aegislash, Mawilite, Dragonite, Garchomp, Mimikyu, Landorus-Therian, Porygon-Z, Genesect, Magearna, Greninja, Tapu Fini, Snorlax, Jirachi.
    Council:

    Resources:

    Threatlist:

    Viability Rankings:


    Sample Teams:

    Other Resources:



    1v1 Monotype (open)
    [​IMG]
    Rules: This follows standard 1v1 regular rules but you can only use a team formed of Pokemon sharing the same type.
    Added Clauses: Same-type Clause
    Banlist: Regular 1v1 banlist.
    Council:

    Resources:

    Threatlist:

    Viability Rankings


    Sample Teams:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Mono Draco (open)

    Garchomp @ Groundium Z
    Ability: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Substitute

    Kyurem-Black @ Haban Berry
    Ability: Teravolt
    EVs: 108 HP / 252 Def / 148 Spe
    Naughty Nature
    - Outrage
    - Ice Beam
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Earth Power

    Latios @ Psychium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Heal Block
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Mono Fire (open)

    Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
    Ability: Drought
    EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 88 SpA / 108 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Blast Burn
    - Solar Beam
    - Substitute

    Blaziken @ King's Rock
    Ability: Speed Boost
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Rash Nature
    - Fling
    - Blast Burn
    - Focus Blast
    - Protect

    Victini @ Choice Band
    Ability: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - V-create
    - Bolt Strike
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Trick


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Mono Fight (open)

    Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
    Ability: Steadfast
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Substitute
    - Reversal
    - Rock Tomb
    - Magnet Rise

    Sawk (M) @ Poisonium Z
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Poison Jab
    - Rock Tomb
    - Earthquake

    Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
    Ability: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - High Jump Kick
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Ice Punch


    Other Resources:

    Usable Pokemon (by Type):
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    1v1 AG (open)

    AG 1v1
    Rules: This is like standard 1v1, except there are no bans. Everything legally obtainable in-game will be allowed here, which ranges from Focus Sashes to having multiple of the same pokémon!
    Added Clauses: Endless Battle Clause
    Banlist: None
    Council: Thimo

    Resources:

    Threatlist:

    Perish Song

    With Perish Song allowed and Arceus having access to it, Perish Song is a huge deal in AG 1v1. Arceus's bulk lets it survive many things most other Perish Song users can't. Arceus's Multitype gives it the option to be any type it wants to be, but it has to forgo its item slot.

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Arceus @ Focus Sash or Sitrus Berry or Z-Crystal
    Ability: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Perish Song
    - Protect
    - Trick Room
    - Recover or Substitute or Filler

    Arceus in particular has the advantage of being much more bulky than the other Perish Song pokémon. Its typing being hidden from preview and the variety of sets it can run make this a big threat. The item you use on this particular set, is up to you. You can give it a Focus Sash, to guarantee living a strong hit, from the likes of fast setup pokémon. Sitrus Berry gives you a tiny boost in bulk by recovering 25% HP when it reaches below 50% HP. A Z-Crystal can be used to give your Arceus a typing. You don't have to use a move that can be used with its corresponding Z-Crystal, but it can come in handy at times. Other options are Leftovers, Mental Herb, Lum Berry with Rest in its 4th Slot and Choice Scarf with Trick and Recover in its 3rd Slot and 4th Slot respectively, however, a faster EV spread is to be used with this option. Arceus's Perish Song set is as you can see, very versatile, and hard to check.


    Focus Sash

    Since Focus Sash is unbanned in this tier there are many things you can do with it. Give it to a strong, but frail, pokémon to let it live at least 1 hit as opposed to none. You can give it to Fear pokémon too, and then there are Counter, Mirror Coat, and Metal Burst pokémon which can abuse it. To finish this list, you can also give it to SubSeeders, such as Whimsicott. There are endless possibilities with this item.

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Rayquaza-Mega @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Delta Stream
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Ascent
    - Extreme Speed
    - V-create
    - Dragon Dance or Draco Meteor or Filler

    Rayquaza is a strong attacker, with strong STABs, access to priority, and good coverage moves. Access to setup helps it beat bulkier pokémon such as Perish Song Arceus and can give it an edge against other setup sweepers. The filler slot can be used for a plethora of things, most notable being Swords Dance, Earthquake, Outrage, and even Iron Head if you have to desperately rely on flinches to beat something.

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Mild Nature
    - Psycho Boost
    - Extreme Speed
    - Ice Beam or Low Kick or Counter
    - Dark Pulse or Mirror Coat

    Deoxys-Attack is another great abuser of Focus Sash. It has strong moves, access to priority, access to Counter and Mirror Coat, and a nice movepool with multiple choices for coverage. Deoxys-Attack is simple and straightforward to use, and shouldn't let you down.

    [​IMG]
    Sableye @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
    - Metal Burst
    - Fake Out or Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch
    - Taunt
    - Foul Play or Knock Off or Fake Out or Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch or Recover

    Sableye is the perfect example of a successful Metal Burst abuser. It's immunity to Extreme Speed is big. Even though its HP stat is shabby, its usable as the highest roll it can dish out with Metal Burst is 454 HP. The second moveslot is occupied with a priority move. The abundance of Focus Sash forces you to have priority in order to break them. Taunt is a 3rd must have, to prevent people from spamming their setup moves which would outstall Metal Burst's PP otherwise. It also prevents Status and lets it beat Perish Song, which is huge. The last moveslot is again a toss-up, you can opt for Foul Play, get utility with Knock Off, or opt for a secondary priority move. Recover can be used as a way to deal with weaker moves that do less than 50%. The EVs and IVs maximizes HP and Attack and minimizes the defenses and Speed.

    [​IMG]
    Smeargle @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Own Tempo
    Level: 1
    EVs: 116 Atk / 116 SpA / 76 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Endeavor
    - Feint
    - Spore
    - Infestation

    Smeargle is the best Fear pokémon to use in AG 1v1. It has access to every move in the game. Endeavor is the main move Fear pokémon use, and drops opposing pokémon down to its own HP, in most cases 1 or 12. Feint is used over Extreme Speed, because 1, it breaks Protect and variants. 2, it has more PP, and 3, it has the exact same damage output against Level 100 pokémon. In a Level 1 vs Level 1 situation, Extreme Speed would be beneficial, but the pros of Feint outweigh the pros of Extreme Speed. Spore is handy to beat Leftovers and Extreme Speed, Feint or Triage pokémon with roughly a 67% success rate, if they don't have anti-Spore measures, such as Lum Berry, Chesto Berry or Safety Goggles.


    Z-Moves

    Z-Move users are big in AG 1v1, these pokémon have the bulk, strength and movepool to pull it off. They have enough bulk to make Focus Sash worthless on them, examples are Arceus and Lunala. The one strong hit they can do puts them apart from the frailer part of the meta like Rayquaza and Deoxys-Attack. The Z-Move users usually break fat walls such as Perish Song Arceus.

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Arceus @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Multitype
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Extreme Speed
    - Swords Dance
    - Shadow Claw or Shadow Force
    - Giga Impact or Earthquake

    This particular set can be used to bluff bulkier Arceus. Most won't expect Swords Dance, but even if they do expect it, it still is a hard set to deal with. Extreme Speed is used for priority, and allows it to finish off weakened pokémon. Swords Dance lets Arceus boost up against bulkier stuff, such as Perish Song Arceus, which results in a Breakneck Blitz with twice the power. Shadow Claw or Shadow Force is used to deal with Ghost types, mainly Arceus-Ghost and Lunala. Shadow Claw doesn't have the semi-invulnerability turn which gives it a slight edge over Shadow Force in most cases, but Shadow Force has its pros in dealing with Arceus-Ghost, Rock types and Steel types more reliably, it also is a lot stronger and can break through Protect. Giga Impact is a strong Normal STAB, and when used with Normalium Z, gives a 200 Base Power Breakneck Blitz, which is a lot stronger than Extreme Speed's 160 Base Power Breakneck Blitz. Earthquake can be used over it, as a way to beat Steel types and Rock types more reliably.

    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Dark @ Darkinium Z
    Ability: Multitype
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Pulse
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind
    - Iron Defense or Will-O-Wisp

    Arceus-Dark in particular has a nice niche with this set. This set allows it to beat many pokémon, whether they're offensive, or defensive. It has the bulk, the power and a nice typing. The HP and Special Attack EVs let it beat Sableye most of the time, in conjunction with its Prankster-immune typing. Calm Mind and Iron Defense gives it a nice edge against offensive pokémon, and the powerful Z-Move lets it break tanks. Since this is yet another Arceus, its typing remains hidden in team preview, which is a huge advantage. Will-O-Wisp can be used to chip Focus Sashes away, as well as lowering the opponent's Attack stat.


    Arceus

    Arceus is general is huge. It's typing remains hidden until revealed. The lack of Species Clause makes this particular pokémon even better, the best teams will consist of multiple Arceus because of this. It can run many viable movesets: Perish Song, Physical Z-Move, Special Z-Move and bulky support are the main 4 sets, along with a couple of hybrids, such as Swords Dance + Perish Song, or Calm Mind on a bulky support set with Toxic. The variants would differ in typing mostly, I'm not gonna mention them again, however do note that other types for those variants would differ from the ones I wrote above, such as having a different mains STABs for the Z-Move sets, and running whatever is necessairy for a particular type, such as coverage for types the main STAB can't touch.
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
    Ability: Multitype
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Recover
    - Judgment
    - Toxic
    - Filler

    This is an example of a support Arceus set, Judgment is for dealing damage, and Recover is for longevity. Toxic is for chipping stuff, the filler slot is where it gets interesting, you can run a plethora of moves there, including but not limited by Extreme Speed, Will-O-Wisp, Calm Mind, Perish Song, Magic Coat, Refresh and a Coverage move.


    Others

    Apart from the main threats I mentioned above, there are others which are viable, but don't fit under any category. They have niches on their own and are quite anti-meta.
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Lunala @ Choice Scarf or Choice Specs
    Ability: Shadow Shield
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest or Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Moongeist Beam
    - Focus Blast
    - Moonblast
    - Ice Beam or Psyshock

    Lunala has a lot of bulk, thanks to Shadow Shield. It can make great use of it with a Choice set. The Choice Scarf set will outspeed the majority of the metagame, and the Choice Specs set will have a better damage output as Lunala still is quite weak. Moongeist Beam is your STAB. Focus Blast is used to beat Arceus, though, it's accuacy is still shaky, having at least a chance is worth the moveslot. Moonblast is used to hit Dragon types, Dark types, and Fighting types with a Super-Effective move. Its Special Attack dropping secondary effect can sometimes save your life. Ice Beam is used to beat Sableye without Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch if you have the Choice Scarf set, however it is replaceable by Psyshock, a STAB move that hits the opponent's Defense stat, this can be useful against some specially defensive based pokémon like Kyogre-Primal and Xerneas after a Geomany. Modest is usually used for the damage output. Timid is an option however, as it rules out speedties with other Lunala, unless they use Timid as well.

    [​IMG]
    Mewtwo @ Mewtwonite X or Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Recover
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Psystrike

    Mewtwo has a nice support set, which is as anti-meta as can be. Recover and Taunt let it beat the majority of bulkier pokémon whereas Will-O-Wisp helps against offensive ones. Mewtwonite X is the preferred item, as you can choose to change your typing. its main purpose is becoming neutral to Dark type moves as well as increasing it's defenses by 10 each. Not mega evolving is handy when it comes to facing stuff like Arceus-Fairy and Rayquaza-Mega. Leftovers can be opted over Mewtwonite X if you want that extra increase in bulk, however, you do become more vulnerable to Dark types.



    Viability Rankings:

    Sample Teams:

    Other Resources:

    Speed Tiers:
    585[​IMG] (0 at +3)
    541 [​IMG] (252+ at +1)
    506[​IMG] (76 at +2)
    493 [​IMG] (252 at +1)
    492 [​IMG] (252+ at +1)
    483 [​IMG] (252+ at +1)
    459 [​IMG] (252+ at +1)
    448 [​IMG] (252 at +1)
    439 [​IMG] (252 at +1)
    438 [​IMG] (252+)
    418 [​IMG] (252 at +1)
    399 [​IMG] (252)
    394 [​IMG][​IMG] (252+)
    372 [​IMG] (252+)
    363 [​IMG] (216+)
    361 [​IMG] (252+)
    351[​IMG] (0 at +1)
    339 [​IMG] (252)
    330 [​IMG] (96+ or 216)
    329 [​IMG] (252)
    326[​IMG][​IMG] (252+)
    322 [​IMG] (252+)
    307 [​IMG] (124)
    306 [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] (252+)
    297 [​IMG][​IMG] (252)
    293 [​IMG] (252)
    280 [​IMG] (16)
    279 [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] (252)
    276 [​IMG] (0)
    240[​IMG] (252+ at -1)
    234[​IMG] (0)
    220 [​IMG] (0- with 0 IVs)
    219 [​IMG] (252 at -1)
    216 [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] (0)
    105 [​IMG] (0 with 0 IVs)
    094 [​IMG] (0- with 0 IVs)

    note: This list is incomplete, for speedtier requests, PM me (username: thimo) on main.


    1v1 Sketchmons (open)

    <banner>
    Sketchmons 1v1
    Rules: Standard 1v1 in which all of your Pokémon can learn an additional move of your choice.
    Added Clauses: None
    Banlist:
    • Pokémon: Arceus, Blaziken, Darkrai, Deoxys, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Defense, Dialga, Genesect, Gengar-Mega, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kangaskhan-Mega, Kyogre, Kyurem-White, Landorus, Lugia, Lunala, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Salamence-Mega, Shaymin-Sky, Solgaleo, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Zygarde-Complete
    • Items: Focus Sash
    • Moves: Perish Song
    • Moves that cannot be sketched: Belly Drum, Chatter, Geomancy, Lovely Kiss, Shell Smash, Shift Gear, Spore, Z-moves, Moves that have the Z-move effect Atk +1 Def +1 SpA +1 SpD +1 Spe +1
    • On the radar: Transform
    Italics: Banned from Sketchmons 1v1 but not regular 1v1
    Council:
    [​IMG] Uselesscrab
    [​IMG] charizard8888
    Resources:

    Threatlist:

    Stronger moves
    Pokemon which were originally held back because of their limited movepool which lacked reliable STAB, coverage options which forced them to go mixed or just about any attacker can now have access to better and stronger moves.

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Kartana @ Choice Band
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Smart Strike / Sunsteel Strike
    - Leaf Blade / Power Whip
    - Sacred Sword
    - Giga Impact

    Kartana can now have powerful STAB moves which it lacked earlier. Sunsteel Strike can go past Sturdy users like Golem, Crustle, Sawk, FEAR and also helps in defeating Dragonite.

    [​IMG]
    Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Flare Blitz / V-Create
    - Substitute / Bolt Strike

    With V-Create as the sketched move, Mega Charizard X hits really hard making it tough to wall and since its 1v1, Mega Charizard X doesn't have to worry about the stats drops much. With Bolt Strike, it can defeat Pokemon like Primarina and Tapu Fini. It can even go for Thousand Arrows and render Heatran, a common Charizard check helpless.

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly/Naughty Nature
    - Outrage
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Ice Beam / Icicle Crash
    - Iron Head / Bolt Strike

    Due to Kyurem-Black's limited movepool its forced to go mixed but here in Sketchmons it can opt for Icicle Crash and make full use of its sky high attack. Bolt Strike can be used for 2HKOing Mega Gyarados. A bulky Banded V-Create set can be used to defeat Heatran, Mega Mawile, Magearna at the same time

    [​IMG]
    Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    Ability: Psychic Surge
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Prismatic Laser
    - Moonblast
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball

    Tapu Lele is another strong attacker. Only a few Pokemon can take a Prismatic Laser in Psychic Terrain.

    Setup

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Dragonium Z / Groundium Z / Haban Berry
    Ability: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Fire Fang / Stone Edge
    - Substitute

    [​IMG]
    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Cotton Guard
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic
    - Soft-Boiled

    Quiver Dance Zard Y

    Dealing with anti-meta Pokemon and Sturdy becomes a lot easier. Moves like Fake Out, Moongeist Beam, and Sunsteel Strike can get past Sturdy, Disguise, Multiscale while anti-meta Pokemon like Heatran, Primarina, and Magearna can be dealt with by coverage so this removes the requirement of carrying a specific answer to them in the team as one move is enough.
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
    Ability: Drought
    EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 64 SpA / 132 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Fake Out
    - Blast Burn
    - Solar Beam
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    Mega Charizard Y in usual 1v1 is a powerful Special attacker, one of its major flaws is performing against Sturdy Pokemon. Now with Fake Out it can defeat every Pokemon with the ability Sturdy without sacrificing other matchups.

    [​IMG]
    Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
    Ability: Aerilate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 40 Def / 216 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Giga Impact
    - Bulk Up
    - Earthquake
    With Aerilate Fake Out and Giga Impact along with Earthquake in the back, it can defeat every Sturdy Pokemon barring Golem. Fake Out also helps in breaking Disguise. Moreover, it provides additional initial damage.

    [​IMG]
    Greninja @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Protean
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid/Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hydro Cannon
    - Moongeist Beam
    - Grass Knot
    - Ice Beam
    While Timid can also KO Sturdy Pokemon but Modest provides a higher chance of OHKOing all the Sturdy Pokemon.

    Uncertainty
    There are a lot of possibilities as every Pokemon is now capable of having a new move and none of the sides would be aware of which one is it. Slaking can be used with Skill Swap, Primarina with Choice Specs can sketch Prismatic Laser to defeat Mega Venusaur. Wonder Room can turn the tables against Pokemon like Chansey and Slowbro. When your opponent uses Protect, watch out as it can be followed by Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst, Z-Mirror Move or Disable. There aren't a lot of bans as of now as the meta is fairly new. Be creative, there isn't any "standard" set here. Feel free to share the sets which you find good or any strategy/Pokemon which you feel should be banned or unbanned.

    Viability Rankings:

    Sample Teams:

    Other Resouces:

    Recommended Sketch moves (open)

    Attacking Moves

    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Giga Impact, Flail
    • Special: Hyper Beam, Boomburst
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: V-Create, Sacred Fire, Fire Lash
    • Special: Blast Burn, Eruption, Blue Flare
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Crabhammer
    • Special: Hydro Cannon, Water Spout, Steam Eruption
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Power Whip, Solar Blade, Wood Hammer, Horn Leech, Bullet Seed
    • Special: Frenzy Plant, Solar Beam, Leaf Storm, Petal Dance
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Bolt Strike, Fusion Bolt
    • Special: Zap Cannon, Thunder, Electroball, Thunderbolt
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Outrage, Dragon Hammer, Dual Chop
    • Special: Roar Of Time, Draco Meteor
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: First Impression, Megahorn, Leech Life, Pin Missile
    • Special: Bug Buzz
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Precipice Blades, Thousand Arrows
    • Special: Earth Power
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Sunsteel Strike, Gear Grind
    • Special: Doom Desire, Flash Cannon
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Shadow Force, Spectral Thief
    • Special: Moongeist Beam
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Darkest Lariat
    • Special: Night Daze, Dark Pulse
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Psychic Fangs
    • Special: Prismatic Laser, Psycho Boost, Psystrike
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Gunk Shot
    • Special: Sludge Wave
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Play Rough
    • Special: Light Of Ruin, Fleur Cannon
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: High Jump Kick, Close Combat, Flying Press, Reversal
    • Special: Focus Blast, Secret Sword
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Sky Attack, Dragon Ascent, Beak Blast
    • Special: Hurricane, Aeroblast, Oblivion Wing
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Freeze Shock, Ice Hammer, Icicle Crash, Icicle Spear
    • Special: Ice Burn, Blizzard, Ice Beam, Freeze-Dry
    [​IMG]
    • Physical: Head Smash, Rock Wrecker, Diamond Storm, Rock Blast
    • Special: Power Gem
    Priority Moves
    Fake Out, Extreme Speed, Accelrock, Aqua Jet, Water Shuriken, Bullet Punch, First Impression, Shadow Sneak, Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, Vaccum Wave

    Utility
    Endeavor, Core Enforcer, Nuzzle, Seismic Toss, Night Shade, Psywave, Techno Blast

    Offensive Speed Control
    Rock Tomb, Electroweb, Icy Wind, Bulldoze, Low Sweep, Flame Charge

    Status Moves

    Setup
    Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Cotton Guard, Amnesia, Coil, Agility, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Cosmic Power

    Recovery
    Milk Drink, Morning Sun, Synthesis, Shore Up, Roost, Wish

    Utility
    Endure, Tailwind, Baby-Doll Eyes, Charge, Charm, Conversion, Conversion 2, Copycat, Topsy-Turvy, Haze, Clear Smog, Heart Swap, Taunt, Trick, Metal Burst, Counter, Mirror Coat, Electrify, Skill Swap, Sleep Powder, Entrainment, Forest's Curse, Glare, Leech Seed, Magic Coat, Me First, After You, Yawn, Soak, Heal Block, Wonder Room

    Protect
    Spiky Shield, King's Shield, Baneful Bunker

    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  5. lost heros

    lost heros Meme Master

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    307
    I'm hyped. And now for some predictions on the SuMo metagame.

    General thoughts:
    Overall, I don't think there are many threats emerging from the gen 7 pokedex. In a metagame, all about hitting hard and hitting fast, this generation's wretchedly slow Pokémon just can't compete. That being said, the Ultra Beasts will probably stand out the most, potentially more than some of our current 1v1 favorites. I don't think Z-moves will have a very big impact as, using a choice Hyper Beam (and copies) is more powerful than Z-Hyper Beam (and copies). As for Z-status moves, meh I'm not impressed. Z-moves may have some niche in picking up the 2HKO when used by things not already married to their items.

    Pokemon: Ultra Beasts
    Show Hide

    Nihilego: Poor, poor charizard. A Rock/Poison type with a base 103 speed. This thing exists to counter Charizard. It's a special attacker with a piss poor physical attack which leaves Rock STAB in power gem. It can use Sludge Wave/Bomb, Dazzling Gleam, and Psychic so a Choice Specs will probably be its preferred set. Another sets could be a special tank, but its poor defense leaves it rather frail.

    Buzzwole: I'm not impressed. Let's move on.

    Phermosa: A.K.A. Deo-A lite. This thing can easily be an all out attacker on either the physical or special side. Special probably has the edge due to Focus Blast, Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, and Hyper Beam. On the Physical Side, there's High Jump Kick, Lunge, Giga Impact, and Poison Jab. Either could use Choice Specs/Band, but I think a Choice Scarf speed benchmarked mixed Phermosa will prevail at taking on Kyurem-B. Potentially, a substitute, Quiver Dance, bug buzz set could take the meta by storm. I doubt it, but it could.

    Xurkitree: Thing is going to have stiff competition with our other Scarf Special attackers like Porygon-Z, Meloetta, and Greninja. However, that 173 SpA is too enticing not to have an impact. I think the prominent set will be a Scarfed Thunder spam, with Energy Ball as coverage and Hyper Beam for random power. A Tail Glow set may see use as a wallbreaker, but its 83 speed leaves much to be desired against offense.

    Celesteela: Finally, a somewhat balanced Ultra Beast. This thing has great Physical and Special bulk as well as Skarmory's cool typing. Unfortunately, its movepool leaves much to be desired. It could try to toxic stall with Toxic, Iron Defense, Rest, and Protect, but it reallllllly wants roost. Offensively it could surprise you with a Gyro Ball set, but its not nearly strong or slow enough for it. So Skarmory 2.0 is going to be just as good as Skarmory.


    Kartana: (!!!!!!!!!!!!!) oh boy. This is what I'm most excited for. Move over, Kyu-B. This thing is stronger, faster, and essentially a paper sword with razor blades. It has a pretty meh movepool with Sacred Sword, Leaf Blade, and Smart Strike being its only real attacks (it has X-scissor, but meh). (It also can use Giga Impact for raw power) It has a pretty good defense stat, but it's flimsy HP and special defense is going to lose to pretty much any special attacker it can't kill. Nonetheless, this is going to have so many sets. It's going to have a Band Set for raw power. It's going to have a Scarf Set to rip through things like the scissors it is. It's going to have a Life Orb Swords Dance wallbreaker set. It may even have a Grassium Z Leaf Blade Set for that extra Umph.

    Guzzlord: Use Chansey instead.


    Necrozma: (I know it's not an ultra beast, but whatever). Again, this Pokémon leaves much to be desired stat wise, but at least it has a good ability with Prismatic Armor. I think this thing will be good. It can use a Calm Mind, Moonlight, Prismatic Laser. Or maybe it could try to make use of Automize. It could do a cool defensive set with Iron Defense, Calm Mind, Moonlight, and Stored Power.


    Pokemon: The bad ones
    Show Hide
    Decidueye: It has some cool defensive moves with Feather Dance and Synthesis. As well as some offensive moves with Brave Bird, Sucker Punch and Nasty Plot for special Decidueye, but it's pretty weak and slow.

    Incineroar: This thing has good physical attacks like Darkest Lairat, Flare Blitz, Outrage, and Cross Chop, but it's so goddamn slow.

    Primarina: Same as Incineroar, but special.

    Toucannon: Don't use it. Beak Blast isn't worth it.

    Gumshoos: At least with Bibarel you have memes.

    Vikavolt: What a waste of 145 SpA

    Crabominable: Next please

    Oricorio: Something good please

    Ribombee: Nah

    Lycanroc: It's decentish.

    Wishiwashi: If only it had more health.

    Toxapex: Cool ability and signature move, unfortunately doesn't match its stats.

    Mudsdale: It has counter and Stamina, but not much else

    Araquanid: Cool ability. Not going to help its viability.

    Lurantis: What a waste of Contrary

    Shiinotic: bad

    Salazzle: A useable Pokémon! A Choice Specs or maybe firium Z, poissonium Z Set could actually work against Grass and Fairy Types.

    Bewear: It could be decent thanks to fluffy but fire types will just eat it up.

    Tsareena: next

    Comfey: Why did all the bad Pokémon get the cool abilities and the UBs got shit.

    Oranguru and Passimian: this isn't doubles.

    Golisopod: Unfortunately First Impression isn't strong enough

    Palossand: An actual sandcastle is more useful.

    Pyukumuka: Throw it back into the sea.

    Silvally: Arceus-lite unfortunately isn't too great. Without espeed and its poor speed tier it just can't do what it wants to do. It might have some impact, but I doubt it.

    Minior: Pass

    Komala: Just let it sleep

    Turtonator: I'd be very impressed with a good shell trap set.

    Togedemaru: Can't even do FEAR

    Mimikyu: It's so close to being Niche, but it doesn't quite have everything it needs to abuse its great ability.

    Brutish: It's close, but not quite close enough.

    Drampa: I'd have to crunch the numbers, but it might be able to make use of berserk and dragon pulse to do some damage. A bulky special attacker set might be niche.

    Dhelmise: meh

    Kommo-o: Cool typing, but poor speed and no good fighting STAB, but at least it gets dragon dance.

    Pokémon: Alolan Edition
    Show Hide

    Alolan Raticate: Everything bad about Raticate but even weaker to fighting types.

    Alolan Raichu: Without an electric terrain buddy, this thing is useless.

    Alolan Sandslash: As bad as regular Sandslash.

    Alolan Ninetales: Base 109 Speed and perfect accuracy Blizzard? Perfect combination of a niche in checking Ground and Dragon Types not named Kyu-B.

    Alolan Dugtrio: Unfortunately, hair doesn't give good enough stats to give you a niche.

    Alolan Persian: Why can't they give Fur Coat to Pokémon with good Defense.

    Alolan Golem: A viable Pokémon! It's Viable because it's practically Golem.

    Alolan Muk: Great Defensive typing enough to probably give it a niche. It'll be hard to kill even if it doesn't do a ton of damage.

    Alolan Exeggutor: As bad as regular Exeggutor.

    Alolan Marowak: Same as Marowak


    Pokemon: Tapu edition
    Show Hide

    Tapu Koko: This is probably the worst Tapu, but it still is pretty good. It's super fast (I believe the fastest Electric type) and has Electric terrain to make its electric moves very powerful. Unfortunately, it relies on Wild Charge for electric STAB and has no Physical Fairy STAB. Nonetheless it can still 2HKO most of the metagame with Nature's madness. A Life Orb, Physical, Nature's Madness Set will probably be the most successful. A Tapunium set might be used.

    Tapu Lele: Unfortunately for Lele, 1v1 isn't priority hell like the rest of the OMs. However, Psychic Terrain boosted Psychic and Psyshock is oh so powerful. Coupling with Moonblast, Nature's Madness, and Focus Blast. Tapu Lele can 2HKO pretty much anything (including Chansey) with a Life Orb set. A Choice Specs or Choice Scarf could be used as well although it loses out on Nature's Madness.

    Tapu Bulu: Grassy Terrain boosted Wood Hammer off a 130 atk hurts a lot. It does more damage to a Chansey than a Superpower. It has a good movepool too with Superpower and Megahorn. It could go with a Choice Band set for Wallbreaking or a Choice Scarf to outpace some slower pokemon.

    Tapu Fini: Tapu Fini has good bulk and access to Misty Terrain. It can run a specially bulky set with Calm Mind, Moonblast, and Hydro Pump. It can also run Tapunium Z and Moonblast to kill pretty much anything.


    Pokemon: Legendary Edition
    Show Hide

    Solgaleo: This thing will most certainly stay banned. It's insanely bulky and powerful. Sunsteel Strike is very powerful, and it still has Flare Blitz and EdgeQuake for coverage. It could also use Metal Burst and would deal it damage that way too. All it doesn't have is non-rest recovery.

    Lunala: Now this might actually not remained banned, I think it will, but it's typing could be bad enough for us to think about it. If it is unbanned a Scarf Moongeist Beam set will probably be the most popular. Plus thanks to Shadow Shield, a Dark or Ghost Type move will be necessary to beat it.

    Magearna: What a great typing! This thing has great defenses as well as a powerful way to dish back damage. A leftovers Calm Mind Fleur Cannon set may be popular or potentially just a Specs Fleur Cannon.

    Marshadow: It's a shame this thing is unreleased for now because it has a good attack, great speed, cool typing, and good movepool this thing could do some real damage. A Choice Band Close Combat set or a Marshadowinium(?) Z set with Spectral thief would be powerful.


    Pokemon: Gen 6 S pokemon
    Show Hide

    Charizard-Mega X: He was a god before. He's a god now. The only new threats to him are Nihilego, Necrozma, Tapu Fini, and Tapu Lele. Charizard X is able to handle other new meta threats, however, like Phermosa, Buzzwole, Celesteela, Xurkitree, Kartana, Guzzlord and Magearna.

    Charizard-Mega Y: While, undoubtedly still great, Charizard Y gets hurt a lot more than Charizard X. Tapu Koko and Xurkitree threaten Y as well, while it doesn't particularly threaten anything new that X doesn't.

    Gyarados-Mega: This mon's viability is hard to place. All of it's numerous attributes translate very well over to the SuMo. It can handle Nihilego, Pheromosa, Buzzwole, and Necrozma but loses to Xurkitree and the Kartana match-up depends on its set. The Tapus I imagine will be able to do well against Gyarados-mega. Nonetheless it will most likely remain S.

    Kyurem-Black: RIP in peace. Well not RIP, but I don't think S. Between the Tapus, Pheromosa, Celesteela and Magearna Kyurem Black is taking a big hit this generation. It will still be very good, but too many things are going to be able to hurt it in new ways.

    Mawile-Mega: This thing is very powerful, unfortunately it's not released. Oh well.

    Porygon-Z: Still a very strong pokemon able to one-shot a lot of pokemon with hyper beam. We may see a Z-conversion set to sorta mix together Specs, Scarf, and eviolite Porygon2 but I still think the individual sets for each of them would be better.

    To be continued with more information.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
    BoCo365, evacuttugo, Ransei and 8 others like this.
  6. dusk raimon

    dusk raimon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2015
    Messages:
    577
    So lost heros made a nice post about the viability of mons but there was one thing I didn't agree with. He said z-moves wouldn't be broken and may not trouble us. Now I've made a few gen 7 1v1 teams and made 3 which have Pokemon with z-moves on. Unlike mega evolutions which you can discern easily at team preview z-moves are far harder to predict who is carrying them at team preview. For example let me show you the Pokemon on the 3 teams, and if you can tell me which Pokemon have the z-move on each team, then I'll believe z-moves aren't broken. However it's the unpredictability and also the sheer power of z-moves which makes them broken. Also you can run them as a coverage move, it doesn't have to be a stab attack which is used as the z-move, so on heatran you could run a grass z-move for example.

    Now the overview of the 3 teams:

    guess the z-move (open)

    Team 1

    [sprite was messed up, mon is Tapu koko][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team 2

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team 3

    Sprites went completely wack for this one, mons were landorus-I, jirachi and pheromosa.



    Now on a more in depth scale on the z-moves I don't believe all of them are broken. In fact I think it should only be attacking z-moves which are banned. This is because they are unpredictable and can quickly get a kill on a mon which would usually wall the threat. However status z-moves usually give extra stat boosts, for example z-rain dance gives rain as well as a +1 speed boost, but this isn't as useful in 1v1 as it would be in OU or another standard 6v6 tier. Also status z-moves which have so far had a big affect in ou such as z-parting shot or z-memento, both involve a third party (i.e. the next mon coming in). This is obviously impossible in 1v1. Finally status z-moves are far less likely to just straight break through the opposing team unexpectedly and without warning, which is the main selling point for offensive z-moves in 1v1. I also spoke with Rumpelstiltskin about this a bit and I know he also wants to ban offensive z-moves but keep status z-moves.

    Tl;DR ban offensive z-moves keep status z-moves.
  7. DEG

    DEG I could not plan this.
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    915
    I've been having so much fun testing new and old Pokemon and seeing their viability, and there's a lot of Pokemon from last gen that dropped viability and new threats that surfaced from this gen. From a first point of view, the metagame is described just like everyone thought, not a lot of new threats here and there just a few new Pokemon, but while testing that perception has changed. Had some fun games with some people in OM, Uselesscrab, dusk raimon and Ransei. This Gen looks like it's gonna be a blast.

    Skipping through more useless intro, and since the topic for now are Z moves since it was mentioned twice and people have been questioning it's fate in the 1v1 metagame I will give out my opinion on that matter. First off, I have already stated on PS! my disgust for Z-moves and how they are going to be over-centralizing in 1v1. As it was has already been stated by Raimon, Z moves are unpredictable, not the "Good" kind of unpredictable but the bad kind. It's like a blind gambling, you don't know which Pokemon is going to run the Z move and on top of that the type of that move is unknown, what stops you from running a Grass Z-move on Heatran, why not a fire one instead? There's a lot of possibilities.

    Secondly, the fact that they are high-powered moves engraves its unhealthiness in the metagame, they act as a better and more powerful "Hyper Beam" coming from various Pokemon, in fact every Pokemon can hold a Z move, and different types. You cannot play around them nor check them easily. This is an aspect of over-centralization as in the end it's going to end up being Z move vs Z move, losing the key aspect of the metagame which is diversity.

    Thirdly, using the "it requires an item slot to function" argument doesn't really work here, in 1v1 the Item is a free spot, no Pokemon has a defined Item slot which is really shown and is still evolving to that way, prime example is Kyurem-Black last generation, it started from being mostly Choice Scarf to now running Choice Band, Weakness Policy, Choice Specs, Haban Berry, most Pokemon can be EV tweaked to use the item that they wish, and the less predictable the item the more wins you can hide under your wings. With Z-moves being around, most Pokemon are going to pick out that item and tweak their EVs to function that way, either live an attack from the opponent, or be faster and destroy the opponent. Z-moves removes diversity from the metagame.

    Fourthly, it has been noted that only offensive Z-moves are somewhat unhealthy but that is also the case of status moves. Instead of straight attacking the opponent with a move, Pokemon will be EV'd to live a hit and boost with a Z-Status, no I'm not saying Z-Memento or Parting shot is broken, and deal serious damage.

    Also for the sake of complex bans and coding. No we cannot ban attacking Z-Moves and keep the status ones, since if everyone is against them the purpose will be banning the Z-stones themselves. Also I don't see how if attacking Z-Moves be banned the status ones will be in the spotlight.

    I really wanted to post more about new Pokemon and stuff I discovered but for now I'll stop here and maybe post later on after everyone stated their opinion on Z-moves.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  8. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,528
    I think Z-moves are probably broken but I'm not posting about that right now. Instead, it is time to dump sets with very limited explanations as to why I am using them. First off: Generation 7 Pokemon.

    BEWARE...MY EXTREMELY HIGH DEFENSE
    [​IMG]
    Bewear @ Choice Band
    Ability: Fluffy
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Atk / 44 Def or 248 HP / 200 Atk / 60 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Giga Impact
    - Hammer Arm
    - Earthquake
    - Thunder Punch / Ice Punch

    I already posted this in one place but it's probably the best thing I've come up with so far. It is no longer as great a lure as I had thought because Mega Mawile is now nonexistent, but it still fulfills the unique role of a physical wall that can actually do solid damage as an attacker. It inexplicably takes on things like Azumarill and Jirachi. Even stuff that bypasses Fluffy like Kyurem-Black and Mega Charizard X can lose. EVs allow you to avoid a 2HKO from unboosted Mega Gyarados, which also bypasses Fluffy and does a slightly better job. Thunder Punch is probably superior but if your team can handle Water-types and not Dragonite for some reason, switch it around to the other EV spread as well.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Fluffy Bewear: 186-219 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Pair this with a special wall or just something that beats Psychic- and Fairy-types well.

    I AM A NIHILIST AND ALSO HAVE AN EGO
    [​IMG]
    Nihilego @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpA
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Power Gem
    - Sludge Wave
    - Psyshock / Psychic
    - Thunderbolt / Hidden Power something

    I know, I know. I am not taking advantage of the excellent speed tier of this inexplicably-Rock-Poison-typed Pokemon. This EV spread is pretty cool, however, as it allows you to beat Charizard X and thus become what I consider an ideal partner for Whimsicott. Think about the things that beat Whimsicott — special Kyurem-Black, Charizards, Fairy- and Normal-type sound move users. These are all covered well by Nihilego, which has the Special Defense to do things like this:

    252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 278-330 (65.8 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Psyshock is significantly less common. Anyway, the only other things Whimsicott consistently has trouble with that also annoy Nihilego, like Grass- and Steel-types (assuming non-Babiri Whimsicott, which would be pretty stupid to run given the fact that you have this thing on your team), can be easily handled by a Charizard. I'm not really sure about the last two moves. This thing doesn't have an excellent movepool but I'd imagine that a Psychic-type move would be useful to hit opposing Poison- and Fighting-type-move users, the latter of whom you can often defeat thanks to the Defense investment. The final moveslot is pretty idiotic and I'm open to suggestions.

    N.B. This Pokemon also works well with Tapu Bulu, for obvious reasons.

    MIMIKYU'S NAME IS ALREADY A PUN HELP
    [​IMG]
    Mimikyu @ Fairium Z / Ghostium Z
    Ability: Disguise
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Shadow Claw
    - Play Rough

    I for one welcome our new Pikachu-imitator overlords. This Pokemon is going to be fantastic in Generation 7 1v1, and one need look no further than its hardcoded ability, Disguise. The free turn basically provides an invaluable opportunity to double the effectiveness of your Pokemon by either burning physical attackers or Swords Dancing against stall. There is probably a more optimal EV spread but I haven't really needed one yet. Fairium Z beats Kyurem-B, while Ghostium Z beats Charizard Y. I prefer the former because I don't like splitting Charizard counters; I like a Pokemon to lose to both or beat both. That said, DEG prefers the latter, and I can see why; Shadow Claw is a truly awful attack.

    Other things I've used: Minior (Shell Smash + Rock typing + Acrobatics + a defensive starting form with an offensive form below half = good), Alolan Muk (fantastic typing, still trying to refine the exact set).

    Now for Z-Move sets. Warning: these have not been tested much, and the first is far superior to the second.

    PORYGON-Z-CONVERSION
    [​IMG]
    Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpA
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunderbolt
    - Conversion
    - Hyper Beam
    - Ice Beam

    This Pokemon is so idiotically good. You can either Z-Conversion to boost all of your stats and change yourself to an Adaptability Electric-type or simply act like a Specs Porygon-Z and fire off a 200 BP (?) Adaptability Breakneck Blitz (with no recharge, I think). EVs live a Kyurem-B Outrage without taking too much away from Special Attack.
    There might also be merit to putting Ice Beam or Shadow Ball in the first slot depending on who's on the ladder. As you're about to see, Ghost typing can be quite useful.

    GOURGEIZT-ZUB-PAR

    [​IMG]
    Gourgeist-Super / Small @ Ghostium Z
    Ability: Insomnia
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def or something with 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant / Jolly Nature
    - Trick-or-Treat
    - Phantom Force / Shadow Claw
    - Seed Bomb
    - Will-O-Wisp

    WARNING: UNTESTED!!!!

    If Gourgeist-Super had better stats, this would be an incredibly good set. You simultaneously get +1 everything and make the opponent weak to your STAB, or use a powered-up version of that same STAB to hopefully break stall. Unfortunately, Gourgeist-Super is not bulky enough to live a lot of hits, nor can it outspeed anything of note even at +1 Speed. Meanwhile, Gourgeist-Small lives 0 hits and still manages to be 1 point slower than both Charizards. I'm going to have to see if this set works in practice, because it looks pretty cool in theory.

    If you couldn't tell, I like the idea of 2 possible Z-moves with one crystal — two birds with one stone.

    On tap: Z-Happy Hour Jirachi, Z-Celebrate Eeveelutions, or something idiotic like that. Z-Detect for a painless, highly skillful Evasion boost paired with a Fighting-type attack.

    Obviously these are pretty short explanations, and it's very possible I might have missed some notable flaws in the above sets, but I hope they inspire you to create your own!

    ***

    As fun as these sorts of sets are, there is one incredibly irritating Z-Move that might just get Perish Song banned: Z-Refresh. As pointed out by Dream Eater Gengar today, this move, which restores a Pokemon to full health and heals status conditions, is learned by... Azumarill and Lapras. Meloetta learns the equivalent Z-Heal Bell. Z-Aromatherapy, Z-Haze, Z-Mist, Z-Spite, and Z-Stockpile also notably have the same alternative effect.

    We have also gained two more delightful Perish Song users in Primarina and Marowak-Alola. Good luck killing these things in one hit!

    This is all to say: please reban Perish Song. It is uncompetitive, obviously not intended for a 1v1 environment, and should never have been unbanned in the first place.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2016
  9. DEG

    DEG I could not plan this.
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    915
    Hello, DEG here writing an early-stage metagame report and about everything you want and need to know.

    Table of content:
    I - Guardians of Alola
    II - Ultra Beasts (Part I)
    III - Banlist & Reasoning
    IV - Balance Planning
    V - Generation VII Goals
    VI - Thoughts on Perish Song
    VII - Conclusion.



    I - Guardians of Alola

    As predicted by many when first revealed, these Pokemon are have an impact on the metagame, due to their typing and offensive capabilities which are going to shape in a way or another the 1v1 metagame.

    Tapu Lele
    [​IMG]
    Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Psychic Surge
    EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 SpA
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Moonblast
    - Psyshock
    - Focus Blast
    - Energy Ball

    One of the most metagame changing and defining guardian. Its typing enters a huge part into the making of this threat, Fairy and Psychic STAB is great as it can cover most threats that this metagame has to offer due to the abundance of Dragon- and Fighting-type Pokemon. However, it is weak to Steel-type moves but its coverage move in Focus Blast makes it a little less worse, it also has access to Energy Ball allowing it to take on bulkier Water-type threats. Psychic Surge in tandem Choice Specs allows Psyshock to hit incredibly hard allowing it to even OHKO Mega Charizard X, a bulky defensive and offensive Pokemon, it also allows it to hit effectively Chansey which most Specs users in the past had a problem with (Meloetta and Greninja). Moonblast is an effective secondary STAB move as it hits Dark-type Pokemon that are immune to Psyshock such as Mega Gyarados and Mega Sableye or nailing the more secure OHKO Dragon-type Pokemon. Its EVs allow it live a Charizard Mega X Flate Blitz and OHKO it back with Psyshock, and a Mega Gyarados hitting it hard with Moonblast. I see this Pokemon being a huge threat to account for in 1v1 as it can beat most terrorizing top threat in Gen 6 1v1, Chansey, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, Mega Slowbro...

    Tapu Koko
    [​IMG]
    Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
    Ability: Electric Surge
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
    - Thunder
    - Thunderbolt
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    While not being a serious threat in other metagames due to its shallow movepool, in 1v1 it only needs a couple of moves to shine. Already its typing justifies its presence on many teams. 1v1 lacks Electric-types Pokemon especially after the departure of Mega Ampharos due to the Mega Stone being unreleased. On top of that, Tapu Koko is a Pokemon that can make use of a Z-stone as it doesn't need to have another item, its high speed lets it forego Choice Scarf, while Electric Terrain boosts its power to hit already high powered Electric attacks allowing it to not go Choice Specs but Electrium Z as it boosts the BP Thunder which is a devastating move. This is the main reasoning of double STAB (Shoutout dusk raimon), Thunder is used for the usage of the Z move while Thunderbolt is the go to move to spam incase Thunder-Z doesn't OHKO. Dazzling Gleam is present to hit common Dragon-type Pokemon even though its not that powerful (we cry for koko no Moonblast, that's also a main reason why Specs isn't that good). I like HP Ice as last move as it can hit Ground-type Pokemon that are immune to Electric-type moves specifically Garchomp and Landorus. Tapu Koko won't be as influential as Tapu Lele but definitely a threat to watch out for and a good Mega Charizard Y and Gyarados check incase the team turns out being weak to them.

    Tapu Bulu
    [​IMG]

    Tapu Bulu @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
    Ability: Grassy Surge
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Superpower
    - Stone Edge
    - Megahorn

    Finally a physical guardian that can make use of different sets! Tapu Bulu is a good Pokemon that is quite unique due to Grass being a rare offensive typing in 1v1 and kinda bad. Rejoice! The time of offensive Grass-type has come to life! Tapu Bulu can use both Choice Scarf and Choice Band for obvious reasons, the former allows it to outspeed both Mega Charizard X and Y and attack them with Stone Edge, and still hit effectively Mega Gyarados and Mega Slowbro with Wood Hammer due to Grassy terrain (Sadly Zard x lives Stone Edge but we can only dream!). The latter forego the ability to hit both Mega Charizard and focus on keeping in check bulky and slower threats due to Choice Band Wood Hammer doing a ton of damage making the likes of Mega Gyarados, Chansey, Mega Slowbro, Toxapex, Porygon2 and more fall under the feet (Yellow ring) of Tapu Bulu. Wood Hammer is most spammable move due to Grassy Terrain, Superpower is just here for coverage as Wood Hammer will always do more damage even if its a super effective Superpower, Stone Edge hits slower Fire- and Flying-type Pokemon and Megahorn is here cause there's nothing else to put :^) (WHY DOESNT IT GET PLAY ROUGH?). Tapu Bulu is a great physically offensive Pokemon that is able to adjust itself depending on what the team lacks.

    Tapu Fini

    [​IMG]

    Tapu Fini @ Waterium Z
    Ability: Misty Surge
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Moonblast

    Tapu Fini is like the most disappointing Guardian and only has a niche in 1v1. Tapu Fini only niche is to boost its Special Attack with Calm Mind to defeat bulky threats with its coverage move like Ice Beam to hit both Garchomp, Landorus or Flying-type Pokemon, Moonblast to defeat Dragon-type Pokemon while Hydro Pump is the main STAB alongside Waterium Z allowing it to fire high powered Water moves aiming at the abundant Fire- and Ground-type or frail Pokemon. Tapu Fini shouldn't be used in 1v1 incase you really need a special Water-type Pokemon that has Fairy as secondary typing otherwise why not just use Greninja.


    II - Ultra Beasts
    I haven't really played a lot with Ultra Beasts but they are shaped by some sorts and really looking to be a defining element in the 1v1 metagame but not being as broken as they are in other single competitions. Here are three Ultra Beasts that I had the chance to test.

    Pheromosa
    [​IMG]
    Pheromosa @ Choice Band
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - High Jump Kick
    - Lunge
    - Poison Jab
    - Giga Impact

    This is the UB that I tested the most and found a viable set that keeps threats in check. Thanks to its gigantic Attack and Speed compared to its mediocre defenses all over this Pokemon sole job is to hit hard and OHKO the opponent otherwise its getting OHKO'd. Nowadays, 1v1 is shifting more into bulky offensive compared to the fast paced meta we had once it started, this state affects Pheromosa both ways, good and bad. Choice Band is the best item to use on Pheromosa seeing as its physical movepool covers a bit better than its special. High Jump Kick is the best STAB move to use intandem Choice band as it wrecks havoc allowing to neatly OHKO Pokemon that don't resist it specially Mega Charizard X. Lunge allows Pheromosa to hit Psychic-type Pokemon notably Mega Slowbro super effectively. Poison Jab gets on the Fairy-type Pokemon that are going to be everywhere, it OHKOs most, if not all of them, with Choice Band. Giga Impact is more as a last resort and can be replaced with Ice Beam, it's just for Mega Charizard Y incase you know they are using it because Pheromosa can OHKO Mega Charizard Y with Giga Impact while HJK can't. Pheromosa is certainly a Pokemon to look out for and investing more bulk into your Pokemon allowing them to live some Pheromosa moves wouldn't cause harm.

    Nihilego
    [​IMG]
    Nihilego @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
    - Sludge Wave
    - Power Gem
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Already covered by Uselesscrab Nihilego is another UB that will affect the 1v1 metagame positively. Its main trait is its unique typing in Rock and Poison allowing it to clearly handle the dominating Fire- and Fairy-type Pokemon. With Choice Specs, Nihilego is about to hit really hard everything that doesn't resist its main STAB moves, Sludge Wave allows it to handle all Fairy-type Pokemon such as Tapu Lele, Whimsicott, and more. Power Gem hits Flying-type Pokemon mainly both Mega Charizard which are a force in the metagame. Thunderbolt is a coverage move that allows Nihilego to damage passive Water-type Pokemon that doesn't OHKO it with their moves. While Nihilego is a lost cause against Ground-type Pokemon having HP Ice means that it beats both Garchomp and Landorus which are premium Ground-type Pokemon in the metagame. Nihilego is another great addition to the 1v1 metagame due to it keeping in check dominating Pokemon without being unhealthy.

    Xurkitree
    [​IMG]
    Xurkitree @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
    - Thunderbolt
    - Energy Ball
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Hidden Power [Ice] / [Fire]

    Xurkitree has a niche in 1v1 as a terrifying special attacker with 173 base Spa but its monotyping Electric and lack of coverage doesn't make it justice sending it down the influencing Pokemon list. Choice Scarf boosts Xurkitree not great Speed allowing it to outspeed faster Pokemon and OHKOing them such as Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard Y with Thunderbolt. Energy Ball hits Ground-type that are immune to Thunderbolt, while Dazzling Gleam is present to hit Dragon-type Pokemon. Since it has nothing else to cover both HP Fire and Ice can be used, the former takes on Grass-, Bug- and Steel-type Pokemon that resists Xurkitree's moves such as Ferrothorn and Kartana while the latter hits Garchomp and Landorus super effectively. Xurkitree is not a top threat like other Pokemon already discussed but carves a good niche in the 1v1 metagame.


    Celesteela
    [​IMG]

    I haven't quite tested this Pokemon, but on paper it seems really cool with a Choice Band set. It's a heavy Pokemon that is lucky to have the combination of great typing and stats, it can survive some hits and retaliate back with a Heavy Slam that does a bunch of damage to slim Pokemon, it also has okay coverage move in Seed Bomb taking on Water-type Pokemon that resists Heavy Slam, Stone Edge, and Earthquake.




    III - Banlist & Reasoning
    As the start of a new Generation of 1v1, TI and I decided that refreshing the 1v1 metagame a bit would be the critical point of the metagame. What I mean by that is re-inserting things that were previously banned and starting with OU banlist would allows thing to flow smoothly allowing us to re-balance the metagame. We unbanned both Perish Song and Swagger back and reinstalled the Species Clause. While I do not quite agree with both unbans I see that they are needed to test them back, we shouldn't really judge them that fast so I agreed on unbanning them for now but as my testing went I realized that they are still as harmful as they were before, especially Perish Song. Species Clause was removed to touch diversity, as using the same Pokemon in the battle to check various threats removes diversity which our new philosophy protects. As for the OU banlist that we adapted removing from the metagame previous Pokemon that weren't broken in Generation VI such as Deoxys-D, Mega Gengar and Mega Lucario are a part of the plan to balance things easier. Don't worry guys, I know that you want a balanced metagame and we promise to act as fast as we can to bring to you the best experience this generation, the steps will be explained in the next point.

    On Z-stones: We have decided to not take rash decisions and ban them quickly. When thinking about it, they do add diversity to the metagame IF the over-centralizing ones get banned, so the plan is to ban problematic moves and not the stones themselves, this might work or not but the fact that it might help into diversity make us want to take the risk. If in general all Z-moves are broken then we will discuss banning them all but before that we will focus on move by move.

    IV - Balance Planning
    As I stated in the previous paragraph, our goal is to balance the metagame as fast as possible while taking good decisions to give you the best experience and not harm the metagame in any way. The balancing will be divided into three parts:

    Step 1: As soon as we get a ladder more testing will be under the way and I'll be watching the battles closely, if not laddering myself. We will discern the broken elements via battle scouting or gaming ourselves and via thread discussion. It is HIGHLY advised to keep on discussing in this thread speaking out your mind and what you think is broken so we can act and recognized unbalanced elements faster. Some errors might happen in this step but they will be fixed later on,in stage 3, incase they do really happen.

    Step 2: After we remove from the game the broken elements we will bring back to the metagame more Pokemon from Ubers that were present last generation previously stated and more (Surprise, surprise!). Any error into bringing back a broken Pokemon will be rapidly fixed in this stage to stay on the correct road.

    Step 3: This shall be officially known as the cleaning step. After letting the metagame settle for some days or week we will start focusing on the most important part of this balancing planning which is the community input and suspect tests. Anything that was never banned previously and was still deemed broken will be suspected, anything that was banned but controversially will be suspected, and we will suspect more Ubers Pokemon that seems not broken on paper.



    V - Generation VII Goals
    Our goals for Generation VII are what we couldn't do or didn't have time to do in Generation VI and many more. Our first goal is built on diversity, we got a lot of complains last generation that the same Pokemon were omnipresent which made the metagame stale for many. This is what we don't want this generation, we will create diversity in teams by removing any unhealthy element, this is why we think Z-moves are going to help a lot in the procedure. We will evaluate the metagame every once in a while and keep it in movement by discussion in the threat and what we want to see new, bans or unbans. But with opportunities like this, people will start throwing random bans and unbans, we will let you know that the discussion will be heavily moderated and any stupid ban or unban opinion will be removed.

    Other than diversity, we think that community wasn't that much evolved last generation, no, not in discussion but into Tournaments and Challenges, this is why another goal that we have this gen is to open up more Tournaments and Challenges to the community such as Ladder Tour and classic Tournaments. Projects are also something we want to improve, last generation some projects were sparked but not a lot of people were interested but hopefully the 1v1 community will be bigger this generation and we will see projects coming to life.

    Another thing we want to expand are 1v1 OMs that started late last gen and should really become a thing this generation. As we progress further into this generation and finish important resources such as Viability Rankings, and main sets we will start focusing on 1v1 OMs such as Old Gens, Ubers and UU which will be a fun and good way to change from the good "Old" Gen VII 1v1.
    VI - Thoughts on Perish Song
    As a closing paragraph into this long post I would like to second the point of Uselesscrab that Perish Song is still broken if not more broken this generation. Meloetta and Azumarill were already huge threats with Perish Song last generation. Common methods used were hyper offense and Trick which both are mitigated this generation due to Z-Moves. While being a little less than 2OHKO'd scares less these Pokemon due to Z-Refresh, Trick becomes invalid as Z-stones cannot be traded which makes Perish song better. Meloetta can still use Trick Room to outslow slower threats while Azumarill typing makes it a great sponge to common attacks alongside Z-Refresh. Adding to that new Pokemon that may use Perish Song as previously mentioned such as Primarina and Alolan Marowak which are both bulky with a good typing.

    VII - Conclusion
    In conclusion, I do still have a lot of Pokemon that I have used but not talked about in this post just because I got lazy and wanted to clarify other points but I will come back soon. We're still testing new Pokemon and mechanics even without a ladder and coming up with new sets and discovering hidden gems and you should join us! You can challenge me, Uselesscrab, dusk raimon and more if you ever feel like wanting to test something (Especially me, I'm always ready), don't be afraid to post your thoughts or new set and Pokemon you discover in this thread that allows us to discover the metagame better. I think that's way too much reading so I'll drop some a team, I'm not going to write a description since I'm too tired of writing lmao.

    Show Hide

    Pheromosa @ Choice Band
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - High Jump Kick
    - Lunge
    - Poison Jab
    - Giga Impact

    Xurkitree @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
    - Thunderbolt
    - Energy Ball
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 96 Def / 92 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage
    - Crunch
    Ransei, charizard8888, Earth and 14 others like this.
  10. Elo Bandit

    Elo Bandit

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Hello everyone!

    I'd like to put forward this Pyukumuku set for some feedback. No, this isn't a joke - this thing is truly busted.

    [​IMG]

    Pyukumuku @ Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Innards Out
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    Lax Nature
    IVs: 0 SpD
    - Taunt
    - Counter
    - Toxic
    - Rest

    Now I know what you're thinking. It's just another lame toxic stall mon with decent defenses and access to Counter. Whoop de do.

    But guess what? Innards Out is a win-con. It works like Rough Skin and Aftermath so that the pokemon that dies to recoil actually loses the match. That means if you get 1-shot by a Mega Manectric and he goes down to Innards Out, you win the game.

    With this in mind, let's take a look at some of Pyuku's matchups.

    He beats Mega Mawile 100% by simply clicking Counter. If Mawile Play Roughs, Counter OHKOs. If Maw clicks SD, it'll take itself out with a Play Rough next turn.
    He beats Char X 100% by clicking Toxic and then Counter, regardless of whether or not Zard DDs.
    He beats banded or scarfed KyuB by tanking Fusion Bolt 100% of the time and KOing back with Counter.
    (252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 264-312 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
    He beats Greninja by Toxic stalling, Grass Knot does virtually nothing.
    He beats Timid or Modest PoryZ by dropping to Hyper Beam and KOing with Innards out.
    He beats non-Substitute Mega Gyara by using Toxic and spamming Counter.
    He beats Banded Dnite, Banded Pheramosa, Banded Chomp, Mega Pinsir, and banded Rhyperior by clicking Counter.
    (252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Rock Wrecker vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 255-301 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
    He beats Perish Song by being a slow-ass pokemon.
    He beats fast special mons like Xurkitree and MGardevoir by dying and revenge killing with Innards Out.
    He beats Timid Zard Y 75% of the time
    (252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Pyukumuku: 302-356 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO)
    and he beats Modest Zard 100% of the time (assuming your opponent doesn't know the drill)
    (252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Pyukumuku: 330-390 (105.4 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

    He loses to competent Zard Y users. He can't deal with Air Slashing, and he can't KO the max HP set with Innards Out.
    He loses to Mega Bro (gets set up on and Scalded to death).
    He loses to special attackers who don't OHKO him. This extends to competent Meloettas, Togekisses, Heatrans, and Magnezones.
    He loses to Mega Sableye.

    Stick this guy with a Chansey or something to handle special attackers and anything that beats Sableye, and you're good to go.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT: Pyukumuku Showcase!
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
  11. Elo Bandit

    Elo Bandit

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Okay, I might've found one of the most busted mons in Gen7 1v1. It's this samurai origami thing.

    [​IMG]

    Broken (Kartana) @ Choice Band
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 200 Atk / 56 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Leaf Blade
    - Smart Strike
    - Sacred Sword
    - Giga Impact

    This thing has base 109 speed and base 181 attack. Base 131 defense lets you tank some crazy hits with a little investment. Plus, it's coverage is fantastic for ripping the tier a new one. I think Band is the best option, but Scarf beats some different threats.

    Banded Kartana 1-shots (or lives a hit and 2-shots) basically everything in the tier that doesn't outspeed it. 56 Defense EVs are to beat MMawile.
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 56 Def Kartana: 109-129 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 56 Def Kartana: 218-257 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    200 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mawile-Mega: 177-208 (73.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    In addition to Mawile, Kartana beats:

    Charizard X, most of the time.
    200 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 278-328 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    alternatively,
    252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 287-338 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    Charizard Y, all the time.
    200 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 376-443 (126.5 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    220 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 376-443 (104.7 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    You 2hko Gyara and tank any of it's attacks comfortably.
    -1 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 229-270 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 56 Def Kartana: 124-147 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

    You eat up any physical move from KyuB and beat the crap out of it with Smart Strike.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 56 Def Kartana: 149-176 (57.5 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-Black: 440-518 (112.5 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    You 2hko mega Slowbro even if he scald burns you.
    220 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Slowbro-Mega: 324-384 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    136+ SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 159-187 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    You tank any hit from Nihilego as long as it's not HP fire. Also, this thing works very well WITH a Nihilego.

    You decimate Whimsicott and non-hp fire Venusaur.

    You OHKO fully defensive Mega Blastoise (and of course Swampert and Rhyperior)
    220 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Blastoise-Mega: 390-458 (107.7 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Gardevoir just lays down and dies.
    220 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 446-528 (131.1 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO



    You lose to speedier special mons due to your terrible spDef.

    PoryZ Hyper Beams you to death. Greninja and Kyu-B click Ice Beam. You're actually pretty even with Meloetta, with a slight edge in your favor. (
    220 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 381-449 (94.3 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO)
    Dragonite messes you up with Fire Punch. Chansey can tank a Sacred Sword and Counter you. ScarfChomp can 2hko you with EQ. Scarfers like Togekiss or Jirachi can hit you with a fire move and take you out.


    Alternatively, using Scarfed Kartana lets you outspeed and OHKO PoryZ, Greninja, and Kyu-B. You lose out on a lot of damage compared to the Band set, but you can pick off those special attackers you couldn't before.

    All input is appreciated.
  12. lost heros

    lost heros Meme Master

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    307
    You're missing out on pain split + leftovers which essentially means if they don't OHKO, you win.
  13. fsk

    fsk

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    37
    I overheard that in GEN7, Rough skin, Iron barb, and similarly Innards Out users are NO LONGER the winning side when it results in an otherwise tie. This is actually a pretty big change to 1v1 strategies in some way, as quite some sets beat FEAR with such abilities.
    Currently, Innards Out users get the win and this is a bug of PS! that needs a fix, and rip the dream of 1v1 with Innards Out.
    Ransei, Uselesscrab and DEG like this.
  14. Elo Bandit

    Elo Bandit

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Can someone test this on cartridge? Do you have a source for this change?
  15. dusk raimon

    dusk raimon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2015
    Messages:
    577
    its already been tested and proved, unfortunately, as pyukumuku is really good with this glitch as it is right now :[
    Pro Baller Z likes this.
  16. DEG

    DEG I could not plan this.
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    915
    Since we got the ladder it is finally time to balance the metagame, we are going to process as I said before. If you find anything broken please discuss here, The Immortal and I will read through and decide quick bans. But before going with the bans, we have decided to quick unban some Pokemon. Please DO NOT discuss other unbans yet.

    These Pokemon have been officially unbanned for Gen 7 1v1 and are now usable.

    Deoxys-D
    [​IMG]
    Everyone who is familiar with the Generation 6 metagame should know that Deoxys-D was a defining defensive threat in the metagame and healthy to the point it kept in check a various threats that would run rampant otherwise. Come Generation 7, new offensive threats have surfaced and many more defensive threats came to life will this Pokemon be a defensive threat to watch out for in this metagame without breaking the limits or will it be a limiting Pokemon that will cross the borders to the banlist later on?

    Deoxys-S
    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-S wasn't as influential as its defensive counter part in the last gen but it was used a PP stalling strategy which was its only niche. It doesn't have great offensive stats nor amazing defensive stats and it got banned in Overused due to its ability to set up hazards and taunt easily due to its high speed which. What makes it normally broken doesn't make it here so we have decided to unban this Pokemon.

    Mega Lucario
    [​IMG]
    While not being able to shine in the previous generation due to a ton of threats that beat it because of its exploitable weakness in Fire and Ground two types that defined 1v1 last generation this Pokemon might better this generation. Fairy-types are going to plague the tier and Mega Lucario's typing helps it, it was unbanned to the weak steel STAB it got and going mixed in 1v1 might not be the best idea, that's what also kept it off from shining last generation. With it being one of the few lucky Pokemon that can utilize their Mega Stone this generation will it be a defining offensive threat this time?

    Mega Gengar
    [​IMG]
    Mega Gengar is banned from normal gameplay mainly due to its ability Shadow Tag. In 1v1 there's no switching out so its ability is useless, it only has amazing Special Attack and Speed with bulk being mediocre. The only thing it gained from gen 6 is the mega speed on turn 1 and we don't think that's going to be something that will make Mega Gengar get broken so it will be ubanned just like it was last gen.

    NB: Friendly reminder that both Perish Song and Swagger are unbanned this generation for some fun testing.
  17. Elo Bandit

    Elo Bandit

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Oh my god, that's even more broken. I'll be spamming this on the ladder 'till the Recoil change goes through.
  18. DEG

    DEG I could not plan this.
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    915
    Phase 0.0.1: Z-moves and Perish Song
    Generation 7 has brought with it a new kind of move known as Z-moves, high powered moves that can deal severe damage to the foe at the cost of an item slot. Before experiencing the generation 7 1v1 metagame speculations came and concluded that Z-moves are broken. Now that we got the ladder and we started testing controversial atmosphere surrounded the future of the Z-moves. As metagame leaders The Immortal and I decided to not quick ban Z-moves and not do so for the long run. We believe that Z-moves bring diversity to the table and the problem comes from either one of the crystals or the Pokemon itself. But, in the end they might be all unhealthy. As the first phase of our ban discussions I have decided to open the case of Z-moves so everyone could just let their thoughts out so we can shape the community's opinion and what are the problems.

    On the first hand, people do believe that having a 180+ BP move at the cost of an item is more than a fair trade, as Z-moves allow you to outright OHKO the foe if not deal a big amount of damage which would allow the Pokemon to finish its enemy in the next turn. Many people started to use Z-moves on their Pokemon and the most famous are Electrium-Z Tapu Koko, Psychium-Z Tapu Lele, Fairium-Z or Ghostium-Z Mimikyu, Electrium Z Magnezone and of course many more. I'm going to guide the posts but that doesn't mean you can't add your free opinion if I missed something. We're going to respond on a few points.
    • What's the best Z-move abuser that you found out being useful?
    • Do you think Z-moves are broken? If yes which one?
    Happy discussion!​
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
  19. Pro Baller Z

    Pro Baller Z Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    Messages:
    3
    So I'm fairly new to OMs but i played in the daily 1v1 tour on pokemon showdown yesterday in the other metagames room and i experienced first hand against some solid players what z-moves can do. I managed to come second in the tour utilising some of these z-moves myself and i just wanted to give some thoughts on them.

    First off what I think overall is that z-moves are inherently broken and overcentralising and deserve a ban. This is because they limit the capacity for teambuilding and invoke a need to overprepare for them or just get straight up ohkoed and lose. This is annoying to play against and deal with and is quickly becoming the only thing I see on the ladder. I went 6 games and every game I faced a z-move abuser, be it mimmikyu or pheromosa, and the other reason I believe z-moves should be banned is because of what I'm about to say. In none of those games could I 100% de facto point out which Pokemon on my opponent's team was in possession of a z-stone, which made me uncertain about what to bring out in my 3 Pokemon team. This is at its core uncompetitive as unlike mega Pokemon which are very limited, any Pokemon can hold a z-stone, from magikarp to zekrom. This makes it incredibly difficult to prepare properly to ladder or play In a tour as you don't know what Pokemon your opponent could bring with one of these monstrous nuke moves.

    I have a few sample sets to showcase of mons which I feel like are good z-move abusers.

    drake dragonite (open)

    Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
    Ability: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Iron Head
    - Earthquake


    dual stab lele (open)

    Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
    Ability: Psychic Surge
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Psyshock
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball


    dual stab koko (open)

    Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
    Ability: Electric Surge
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunder
    - Thunderbolt
    - Grass Knot
    - Dazzling Gleam


    These are some of the better z-move abusers in my opinion and they're all really fun to use, albeit unpredictable, uncompetitive and annoying to play against and just overall broken.

    Tl;Dr get z-moves outta here
    The Idealistic and dusk raimon like this.
  20. Gross Sweep

    Gross Sweep

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    Messages:
    79
    OK so at this point I'd like to share my opinions on gen 7 1v1. A few things that immediately come to mind are perish song and Z - stones.

    Perish Song: as we all know by now perish song is back, and it's still scary as hell (I voted in the original PS ban, and I can honestly say my opinion for banning hasn't changed with the introduction of new mons). It hasn't been as popular due to the sheer power of Z stones, but it's still broken. Stuff like PS meloetta can have its way with most teams on the ladder without even needing teammates. The rise of Perish Song has also led to the resurgence of specs meloetta, because you can't tell what set it's going to be at team preview making it harder to defend against (the first time you play someone at least). Also mons like Lapras, Azumarill, and Marowak are excellent perish song users who act a little differently than Meloetta making this strategy very overpowered, because every team has to run something like taunt if they want to beat PS - not just coverage for one mon.

    Z Stones: Z stones are horrible for the meta. In the past there was a balance between speed and power where no mon was able to out speed the field and ohko it as well, but that has changed. Fast Pokémon like Tapu Koko who in the past may have been able to come in out speed and 2hko most of the meta can now ohko a large proportion of mons. Fast Pokémon in the past needed to carry some sort of super effective coverage move if they wanted to ohko something. Now with an incredibly powerful stab move they just laugh at “coverage” and click what's basically become a "that was easy button", so unless you are SUPER bulky or resist you’re going to die most of the time.

    Another group of Z stones abusers are those who can almost always take a hit. Yes this has become harder to do with fast z-stone users running around, but mons with abilities that reduce damage are taking full advantage. Dragonite with Multi scale and Mimikyu with disguise can almost always live a hit, and dish out huge damage in return. A mon like dragonite being able to take a hit as it clicks DD then use the Dragon Z move is so powerful very few can live it (even if they resist).

    Z-stones are very overcentralizing, because you almost always need a resist to take them on – and it can be hard to predict if a mon is packing a z-move, making you more vulnerable to their power.

    Conclusion: every player should be thinking about perish song, z-moves, and their validity in the tier – because if these aren’t at least suspected at some point it would be atrocious. Playing gen VII 1v1 has honestly been great, but these two strats are definitely hindering it. Also the bug with Pyukumuku is ridiculously stupid right now (just needed to say that, because facing that rock is the equivalent of Monday mornings, having "the talk" with your parents, and having “stomach issues” on a plane).
  21. partys over

    partys over

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2015
    Messages:
    234
    I feel like a dual typed pokemon like mimikyu (which is broken imo) that can use 2 Z-moves with different checks/counters is really unhealthy. It's really hard to take on mimikyu, because ghostium z is completely different from fairium z. This means on your team you need to beat both, which is hard to do for 1 pokemon let alone a whole z-move filled metagame. Because of this, Z-moves should be banned from 1v1.
    thesecondbest likes this.
  22. Elo Bandit

    Elo Bandit

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Z Moves, pros and cons:

    PROS:

    -They help diversify the metagame somewhat by increasing the number of viable pokemon. Mimikyu and even stuff like Gourgeist (shout out to UselessCrab) are viable only because of Z stones. Tapu Koko, for example, is nearly worthless without a Z stone, and you're much better off using Magnezone or even Mega Manectric.

    CONS:

    -There are too many options that Z stone mons can abuse. For example, it's tough to prepare for Mimikyu when it could be running Fairium Z (Play Rough), Ghostium Z (Shadow Claw), Normalium Z (Splash), or even Firium Z (Will-o-Wisp). Similarly, pokemon like Dragonite and Pheramosa can easily run a choice item OR a Z stone, meaning you have to prepare for both. Is that a standard scarfed Jirachi, or a Z Celebrate variant? Diversity in viable pokemon is cool. Diversity in possible sets a pokemon can run gets sticky.

    -Some pokemon simply deal way too much damage with no real drawbacks. Specifically, I'm talking about pokemon like Tapu Koko and Necrozma, who can drop these absurd nukes without any reliable way to punish them. Koko can KO mons with Electrium Z Thunder even through resists, and there's barely a point to running coverage past HP Ice for ground types. Keep in mind Z moves even break through Protect, and they don't have any drawbacks like recoil, recharge, or even less than perfect accuracy. Necrozma even has the freedom to run a bulky Calm Mind Recover set and can drop his boosted 200bp move whenever he feels like it. In the same vein, Z stone Dragonite makes banded Dnite cry, since it hits so absurdly hard with Dragonium Z Outrage and doesn't have to worry about being locked into a move. He can freely boost up with DD or finish a foe with Espeed, not that he really needs it since he one-shots the entire tier.

    -Z Hypnosis exists. +Acc sleep and speed boost is too much to deal with. I'm amazed more people haven't been running it considering how absolutely busted it is. Sub Hypnosis Gengar is currently one of the scariest things in the tier (shout out to my boy Whaleeeee for opening my eyes). No idea if Grassium Z Grasswhistle gets an accuracy boost or not, if so Whimsicott just became even more terrifying than it already was.



    As much as I adore using Mimikyu and clicking my one-shot-wonder Z-Thunder Tapu Koko, I think overall Z moves are unhealthy for the 1v1 metagame. Yes, they are fun, yes I enjoy the creative sets people come up with. However, some pokemon simply abuse Z stones to the point where they make the game unfun and unrewarding for the majority of players.

    Oh yeah, and please re-ban Perish Song. I wonder what set that Meloetta's using and oh me oh my, I've lost the match.
    Uselesscrab and DEG like this.
  23. Baleblaze

    Baleblaze

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    I think pretty much most of my thoughts have been summarized by Elo bandit's post above mine; The z- moves needs to go away, as there are too many possibilities with it and will be largely overcentralized if allowed to continue. Perish-song should be re-banned too.

    ALSO, FIX PYUKUMUKU. Inwards- out is an absolutely broken ability, killing everyone with less hp than it. It's almost like a reverse final gambit, where you receive the same amount of damage you dish out to this Pokemon- and end up losing the match if you take it out (with direct damage) if you have less hp remaining. It also has moves like Painsplit and counter to screw you up further more. Elo bandit has made a full video on how broken it is if you really wish to check it.

    By the way, any thoughts on testing gyarados (mega) and mimikyu?

    Gyarados- I'm surprised a strong point hasn't been raised on mega-gyarados, the variety of ev spreads it can run, with amazing pre and post- mega abilities, and the dark/flying type switch, AND a neat set of offensive physical moves ( crunch, eq, outrage, waterfall, bounce for venus and grass types, taunt). How did we go the whole gen without banning this?

    Mimikyu- While it can be countered by almost every steel type, this almost always forces you to have a pokemon that can resist it's stab or deal with it specifically. It's ability is almost like a free substitute(exclusive to status like burn, but still), and with moves like swords dance and twave (Yes, i've been haxed by a person using mimikyu and twave-swordsdance ). although most of it's powers come through with z-stones, it'll be interesting to see if it's still as viable once the z-moves are banned. (They should be.)
  24. DEG

    DEG I could not plan this.
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    915
    I'm also opening discussion about Perish Song so we can hit two birds with one stone since Z-moves and Perish Song are the elements circulating around.
  25. Elo Bandit

    Elo Bandit

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Alright, let's do Perish Song.

    Viable perish song Pokemon: Lapras, Azumarill, Marowak, A-Marowak, Primarina, Brionne, Celebi, Murkrow, and of course Meloetta.

    Lapras is bulky as hell with 130/80/95 defenses and the ability Shell Armor. It has the freedom to run the Endure+Custap+Dive combo alongside Perish Song to buy an extra turn and take a win. The biggest downsides to Lapras are it's pitiful offensive capabilities (you're only ever going to see this thing as a Perish tank) and it's speed stat (60). It actually ends up outspeeding several threats when it needs to underspeed, leading to its demise. Overall, Lapras is not OP nor overcentrilizing.

    Azumarill is surprisingly good at Perish Tanking, since it gets Sap Sipper. 100/80/80 defenses mean it can take a hit pretty well, and there simply aren't that many options for hitting it super effectively. Endure is incompatible with Sap Sipper, so you can't run Custap + Dive, but Dive by itself is still really strong on Perish Tanks. 50 speed is pretty good, but not good enough to call this thing OP.

    Marowak and A-Marowak have 60/110/80 defenses, and good defensive abilities in the form of Battle Armor, Cursed Body, and Lightningrod. They can both utilize Endure+Custap+Dig to successfully stall out matches. A-Maro has Will-o-Wisp as an option, too. 45 speed is really nice. These guys are both very strong, but can be played around without too much difficulty. Not OP nor overcentrilizing to the metagame.

    Primarina and Brionne do basically the same thing. 80/74/116 with Sitrus or Leftovers vs 60/69/81 with Eviolite. No real defensive abilities. Primarina's got 60 speed, Brionne has 50. They have access to Reflect and Encore alongside Perish and Protect. Overall, they're niche pokemon at best and nowhere near overpowered.

    Celebi has a niche as one of the only Pokemon that has access to both Perish Song and Trick Room, which let it flip speeds around and underspeed slow mons at the end of the three turns of Perish Song. It's got 100/100/100 across the board, which is great. Spore and Sleep Powder immunity is also nice, but it's downfall is it's typing. We've got all kinds of new bugs running around in the forms of Pheromosa, Buzzwole, and Signal Beam Xurkitree. Being that weak to Zard isn't helpful either. Overall, this thing isn't that great at Perish Tanking but it can theoretically be used.

    Murkrow is cool because of Prankster Roost and FeatherDance, but even with Eviolite, its 60/42/42 defenses just aren't enough. This guy gets wiped by nearly every special attacker in the game, and it has trouble lasting 3 turns of Perish Song vs anything that can hit it super effectively. While annoying in theory, it's simply not a consistently viable pokemon to use.


    The above pokemon don't really seem to have any issues. You can play around all of them, and none require too much effort to build around while making a team. If Perish Song was only used by these Pokemon in 1v1, we wouldn't have a problem.

    But we do have a problem. It's name is Meloetta.

    Meloetta @ Sitrus Berry / Lum Berry / Mental Herb
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Perish Song
    - Protect
    - Trick Room
    - Magic Coat / Psychic

    This thing can tank two Scarfed KyuB Outrages with a Sitrus Berry. It has such enormous defenses (100/77/128) that it has no problem simply clicking Perish Song turn one and then Protect over and over. If you can't 2hko this thing through its Sitrus Berry, you lose. Even if you're slower, Trick Room in between Protects means it underspeeds and wins. If you're super concerned about Taunt or Spore, you have access to Lum and Mental Herb to cover that weakness. Magic Coat bounces back Taunt and other status, whereas Psychic is a good option for when you need to go on the offensive (and destroy Pheromosa).

    This set is absurdly bulky and ridiculously hard to knock out. It's also a completely brainless strategy since in most games you simply click PSong>Protect>Protect>Protect, which is boring and unhealthy to play with OR against. You have to take this pokemon into consideration when teambuilding, or you WILL lose to it.

    The other problem with Meloetta is that it has several other powerful sets it can run. You can find Specs, Normalium Z, and SubCM sets alongside Perish Tank. In team preview, you don't know if you're up against a defensive or offensive Meloetta, and they're so drastically different that it makes good predictions extremely hard.

    Offensive Meloetta is totally legit in my opinion, and I'd rather see Perish Song go than Meloetta. Complex bans are misery, so not even gonna suggest banning the Perish Song + Meloetta combo. Keep Meloetta in the tier, and

    BAN PERISH SONG.
    EuSouAFazenda and partys over like this.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 2)

  1. WillRBX