Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Lemon Ginger]

Sorry, but I think you don't understand my point.
In other metagames, you have more than one pokemon. So, if Hoopa-U crits your Mandibuzz and kills it, you can, for example, revenge kill it with another faster pokemon or a pokemon that has access to priority like Pheromosa, Golisopod, Tapu Lele, Scizor... etc. Or you can abuse the momentum you gain after your critted mon faints to bring your own sweeper and set it up to strike back. So crits are definitely manageable and a single crit is rarely the reason for losing a battle.
In some rare situations crits can even be bad for the one who scored the crit. Example: Your opponent has a severely weakened Ferrothorn in the battle, you have a Scizor/Landorus/Pheromosa and use U-turn. Ferrothorn barely survives the U-Turn, you gained momentum and can now set-up your Charizard X, abusing the passivity of Ferrothorn. But when your U-Turn crits, Ferrothorn dies, meaning you switch out first, and lose all momentum to your opponent.

So, in a 6on6 there are multiple ways to handle crits, since a pokemon dying always means that you have the momentum and can make a "free" switch to another pokemon - but in 1v1 you have only one pokemon, so that a crit always means that the player who got the crit wins -> RNG decides the battle.


I also don't want to ban hax entirely, only crits are problematic in my opinion. Also, you aren't following the cartridge mechanics with implementing OMs like this, since there's no format in the cartridge games where players have teams of three pokemon and battle with one of them.

I can see what you mean about crits. Yes a critical hit can win or lose a match, but that's just how the game is. The chance of a critical hit is 1/16. The chance of high jump kick missing is 1/10. Ban high jump kick?

No, that's not happening, and neither will a ban on crits.

 

[AWailOfATail]

It's worth mentioning that the exact same can happen, but reversed. There can be times when you could be the one who needs a critical hit to win. On average, it will all even out. Sure, some team compositions might not benefit as much, but the fact stands that the crits remain an equal, albeit small, opportunity for all.

Also, ELO is not really the one affected by that as much as GXE is. I'd expect the average GXE to be fairly lower on the 1v1 ladder than really any other metas (except maybe cc1v1). ELO definitely has similar properties, but that would even out a bit more, since there's still a higher probability to beat lower ELO'd players (assume theoretical ladder conditions, etc.).

And even though 1v1 isn't forced to follow in-game mechanics, the point of 1v1 is to simulate, well, a 1v1 environment in the games/OU.

 

[Felucia]

Sorry, but I think you don't understand my point.
In other metagames, you have more than one pokemon. So, if Hoopa-U crits your Mandibuzz and kills it, you can, for example, revenge kill it with another faster pokemon or a pokemon that has access to priority like Pheromosa, Golisopod, Tapu Lele, Scizor... etc. Or you can abuse the momentum you gain after your critted mon faints to bring your own sweeper and set it up to strike back. So crits are definitely manageable and a single crit is rarely the reason for losing a battle.
In some rare situations crits can even be bad for the one who scored the crit. Example: Your opponent has a severely weakened Ferrothorn in the battle, you have a Scizor/Landorus/Pheromosa and use U-turn. Ferrothorn barely survives the U-Turn, you gained momentum and can now set-up your Charizard X, abusing the passivity of Ferrothorn. But when your U-Turn crits, Ferrothorn dies, meaning you switch out first, and lose all momentum to your opponent.

So, in a 6on6 there are multiple ways to handle crits, since a pokemon dying always means that you have the momentum and can make a "free" switch to another pokemon - but in 1v1 you have only one pokemon, so that a crit always means that the player who got the crit wins -> RNG decides the battle.


I also don't want to ban hax entirely, only crits are problematic in my opinion. Also, you aren't following the cartridge mechanics with implementing OMs like this, since there's no format in the cartridge games where players have teams of three pokemon and battle with one of them.

I think it's true that hax decide part of the victories. But that is compensated by match speed. If you lose to a crit in OU then it's going to take you an hour to get that ELO back while in 1v1 you do 3 matches in 5 minutes and you're good.
Also an inferior player will never perform well regardless of hax, I can hax my way to 1300 ELO if I want but would never have reached my current 1751 without actual skill.

Also some strategies, like Deoxys-Defense, are relying on not getting a crit to win. It'd be totally unfair to give those players the upper hand and pull a metagame shift towards boosting defenses. Several abilities would become useless and some sets would become more broken than you can possibly imagine.
I think banning crits is one of the worst things you could do to 1v1

 

[The Immortal]

There's no reason to continue this unproductive discussion as you can't even "ban" criticals because it's a mechanic. Mechanic changes are beyond the scope of 1v1. All we do is provide battle rules; we're still limited to the game's mechanics.

Now if you think [insert move here] is problematic, banning said move would be within our scope.

 

[Felucia]

Since we're going to talk problematic things for the metagame. I would like to talk about a pokémon that in most situations will have a 60% chance of guaranteed victory and a 40% chance of guaranteed defeat.

I think Jirachi is uncompetitive, inherently luck-based and does not deserve a place in a prediction-heavy meta like 1v1

 

[Funbot28]

If we wanna talk about moves that always or almost always OHKO, I think a more efficient discussion would be about Z-Moves. I remember it being discussed at the beggining of the meta but no concrete decision was ever made. For me personally I still find them to be overbearing at times (especially Lure z-moves) and it honestly saturates the 1v1 metagame from my personal experience due to their titanic potential to secure the KO across most MUs. For me personally, Rockium Z, Electrium Z, and maybe Ghostium Z hold the most merit to be banned.

Mega Gyarados is still probably the main topic of suspect discussion to be adressed primarily, but I just wanted to express my concerned about Z moves as well and wanted to hear others after some time playing with the meta.

 

[Felucia]

If we wanna talk about moves that always or almost always OHKO, I think a more efficient discussion would be about Z-Moves. I remember it being discussed at the beggining of the meta but no concrete decision was ever made. For me personally I still find them to be overbearing at times (especially Lure z-moves) and it honestly saturates the 1v1 metagame from my personal experience due to their titanic potential to secure the KO across most MUs.

Mega Gyarados is still probably the main topic of suspect discussion to be a dressed primarily, but I just wanted to express my concerned about Z moves as well and wanted to hear others after some time playing with the meta.

I think Z-Moves in a way are keeping things in check that we'd otherwise label as broken, Z-Moves are an extension to the metagame and we've learned to live with them.

Don't remember what I was trying to say...

 

[Funbot28]

I think Z-Moves in a way are keeping things in check that we'd otherwise label as broken, Z-Moves are an extension to the metagame and we've learned to live with them.

Don't remember what I was trying to say...

I have learned to understand this as well, but honestly is it a healthy mentality? If we look at the suspect philosophy, we should try to inhibit the most diversity within the meta. My main gripe with Z moves is there potency to overwrite this criteria, creating more overcentralization in return.

Unless "broken checks broken" is a way of tiering, I don't see it as a healthy addition.

 

[Felucia]

I have learned to understand this as well, but honestly is it a healthy mentality? If we look at the suspect philosophy, we should try to inhibit the most diversity within the meta. My main gripe with Z moves is there potency to overwrite this criteria, creating more overcentralization in return.

Unless "broken checks broken" is a way of tiering, I don't see it as a healthy addition.

If diversity is what we're going for then banning Z-Moves will not accomplish that goal. Z-Moves give a little bit of potential to almost every pokémon, which has made the metagame a lot more diverse and dynamic. I've been playing more than I like to admit and I see new things arise every day, many because of Z-Moves.

I might be seeing things wrong but I don't remember seeing more diversity in 1v1 in a long time

 

[Mariokartana]

So I've been playing around with the 1v1 meta, and figured out a pretty nice moveset for Buzzwole. Despite this being one of the worst UBs (next to Guzzlord), this guy is actually pretty cool in this meta.

Buzzwole @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Leech Life
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
- Thunder Punch

There's no fighting type STAB, as I've taken it out to allow for three coverage moves. Buzzwole can take some pretty tough hits, (+2 Mimikyu using Z-Power) and overall, from my experience in 1v1, can 2HKO pretty much anything. This is, surprisingly, a pretty good 'mon to use, and I really wish there was more recognition for him.

Also, I feel like Z-Moves should be banned from 1v1. I have nothing against them, since this specific set can take in the majority of them, but others don't exactly have that kind of advantage.

 

[lost heros]

Since we're going to talk problematic things for the metagame. I would like to talk about a pokémon that in most situations will have a 60% chance of guaranteed victory and a 40% chance of guaranteed defeat.

I think Jirachi is uncompetitive, inherently luck-based and does not deserve a place in a prediction-heavy meta like 1v1

I want to expand on this, and why Serene Grace isn't broken, but rather inherently uncompetitive. Smogon's tiering policy defines something as uncompetitive as the following: "Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant". In 1v1, skillful play is a mix between teambuilding/setbuilding, predictions based on team preview, and in-battle etiquette. However, none of those things matter when it concerns Serene Grace Flinches. A 60% chance to flinch on any given turn, will turn ANY battle to be roll dependent regardless of match-ups, which completely ignores skillful play. Serene Grace + Flinch is an inherently uncompetitive strategy, as it attempts to overcome it's opponents with luck rather than skill.

This is why I propose a complex ban on having Serene Grace + Flinching Moves, this might essentially ruin Jirachi, but otherwise keeps alive Meloetta who doesn't employ such a strategy.

Other uncompetitive elements that I would like to be seen gone are Accuracy lowering moves such as Mud-Slap and Flash as they are effectively the same as Evasion increasing moves in 1v1.

If we wanna talk about moves that always or almost always OHKO, I think a more efficient discussion would be about Z-Moves. I remember it being discussed at the beggining of the meta but no concrete decision was ever made. For me personally I still find them to be overbearing at times (especially Lure z-moves) and it honestly saturates the 1v1 metagame from my personal experience due to their titanic potential to secure the KO across most MUs. For me personally, Rockium Z, Electrium Z, and maybe Ghostium Z hold the most merit to be banned.

Mega Gyarados is still probably the main topic of suspect discussion to be adressed primarily, but I just wanted to express my concerned about Z moves as well and wanted to hear others after some time playing with the meta.

If we were to follow a philosophy that banned any element would cause any given pokemon to achieve an OHKO, we'd end up with a horrible stall-fest where Chansey and P2 would overwhelm the metagame because nothing would ever be able to KO them. Z moves aren't going to by themselves secure a KO, similar to how not only Choice Band or Choice Specs secure KOs. Z-moves are 1 hit wonders, that are very effective only when they are based off a strong BP move from a strong Pokemon. Crustle, Donphan, Mimikyu, and Aegislash all rely on being able to take hits and responding with power similar to Defensive Charizard X, while Tapu Koko and Kyurem-B augment their moves with Z-moves similar to Choice Specs PZ. These strategies aren't broken, they've just become more available to otherwise less viable pokemon.

 

[fanyfan]

I want to expand on this, and why Serene Grace isn't broken, but rather inherently uncompetitive. Smogon's tiering policy defines something as uncompetitive as the following: "Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant". In 1v1, skillful play is a mix between teambuilding/setbuilding, predictions based on team preview, and in-battle etiquette. However, none of those things matter when it concerns Serene Grace Flinches. A 60% chance to flinch on any given turn, will turn ANY battle to be roll dependent regardless of match-ups, which completely ignores skillful play. Serene Grace + Flinch is an inherently uncompetitive strategy, as it attempts to overcome it's opponents with luck rather than skill.

This is why I propose a complex ban on having Serene Grace + Flinching Moves, this might essentially ruin Jirachi, but otherwise keeps alive Meloetta who doesn't employ such a strategy.

Other uncompetitive elements that I would like to be seen gone are Accuracy lowering moves such as Mud-Slap and Flash as they are effectively the same as Evasion increasing moves in 1v1.


If we were to follow a philosophy that banned any element would cause any given pokemon to achieve an OHKO, we'd end up with a horrible stall-fest where Chansey and P2 would overwhelm the metagame because nothing would ever be able to KO them. Z moves aren't going to by themselves secure a KO, similar to how not only Choice Band or Choice Specs secure KOs. Z-moves are 1 hit wonders, that are very effective only when they are based off a strong BP move from a strong Pokemon. Crustle, Donphan, Mimikyu, and Aegislash all rely on being able to take hits and responding with power similar to Defensive Charizard X, while Tapu Koko and Kyurem-B augment their moves with Z-moves similar to Choice Specs PZ. These strategies aren't broken, they've just become more available to otherwise less viable pokemon.

I agree with you completely, but I'd rather ban jirachi and togekiss because they are really the only abusers, so it'd be a clean, non-complex ban. But, yeah, other than that, agree 100%

 

[Felucia]

I agree with you completely, but I'd rather ban jirachi and togekiss because they are really the only abusers, so it'd be a clean, non-complex ban. But, yeah, other than that, agree 100%

I wouldn't ban the mons because they have potential that has no need to be banned as long as the flinches are gone. I can see a specs togekiss doing some work and that'd be unnecesarily (I can't spell that word) removed

 

[fanyfan]

I wouldn't ban the mons because they have potential that has no need to be banned as long as the flinches are gone. I can see a specs togekiss doing some work and that'd be unnecesarily (I can't spell that word) removed

Well, then ban Serene Grace. I don't like that, so I support banning the mons. IMO there shouldn't be complex bans around Serene Grace and flinches just to preserve togekiss and jirachi

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Thanks for the suggestion of Mega Slowbro. I think it will fit well in my team, as I'm currently running a Calm Mind Cresselia, and Slowbro would do exactly the same thing - walling the opponent while boosting with Calm Mind, and even has nearly the same typing.

 

[Prof.iHen]

I'm just going to post a kyurem set I use very often.

冷龙 (Kyurem-Black) @ Haban Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 112 HP / 28 Def / 226 SpD / 144 Spe
Serious Nature
- Ice Beam
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power / Iron Head

It can tank a blast burn from a y, and beats x and other kyurems if you just spam outrage(it survives 1 banded outrage). I think a speed/def invested kyurem can beat this, but haven't seen it on ladder much tbh. From experience the spD/Def allows it to survive hits it really shouldn't, like a moonblast from primarina, and tectonic rage from landorus. Overall a pretty nice set to have if you want a dragon counter. It does get beaten by flamethrower y, and by tapu lele, and you have to choose between hitting koko with ep, or mimikyu/other fairies/crustle with iron head, but overall it does its job of countering dragons and being a bulky mon.

 

[Prof.iHen]

Z-Moves: I haven't laddered that much, taking about a 1 month semi hiatus sometime in 2016, but at the start of gen 7, Z moves felt a lot more unmanageable partially because I didn't have any clue how to counter them. Now, I feel like the ladder has gotten used to them and 'stabilized', as i've been seeing a lot more subs, and generally z move counterplay, to both offensive and non offensive z moves. Honestly, I don't think they should be banned, unless it allows a certain set to beat 90% or more of the A-S tier list, or if it is like Zard was last gen, with two very potent and different threats.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Attention:
+1 80 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Mawile-Mega: 255-301 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While you get 2HKOed by Thunder Punch (or OHKOed by +2 Thunder Punch if Mawile uses SD).

 

[pizzq]

shoutouts Amoonguss for ghosting me

!

i started this meta like 3 days ago and topped this JOKE of a ladder

deoxys beats everything
garchomp too
mvenu walls everything
yeah,

sets

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Recover

Garchomp @ Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Iron Head

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Charm
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

original deo was that lame irond amnesia set but i got bored i just bring this on stuff that hits hard but not too hard
garchomp is to kill pretty much everything with band, this team gets owned by scarf kyub if u dont play right with deod so scarf is an option i guess
venu just charms everything

anyways i dont even know if this team is good or not or even if the sets are right but u can use it if u like

also why is the gap between 200-500 smaller than the gap in the top 3 LMAO

Edit: within 5 minutes of writing this post I have been on massive tilt... go me

Edit 2: Now low 1400s,,,,,

 

[Felucia]

shoutouts Amoonguss for ghosting me

!

i started this meta like 3 days ago and topped this JOKE of a ladder

deoxys beats everything
garchomp too
mvenu walls everything
yeah,

sets

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Recover

Garchomp @ Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Iron Head

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Charm
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

original deo was that lame irond amnesia set but i got bored i just bring this on stuff that hits hard but not too hard
garchomp is to kill pretty much everything with band, this team gets owned by scarf kyub if u dont play right with deod so scarf is an option i guess
venu just charms everything

anyways i dont even know if this team is good or not or even if the sets are right but u can use it if u like

also why is the gap between 200-500 smaller than the gap in the top 3 LMAO

Edit: within 5 minutes of writing this post I have been on massive tilt... go me

Nice job topping ladder with that team, I have to admit using 2 items on Garchomp to adapt to the current ladder is a great way to go about doing things.
I think we all witnessed the battle in which you got number one, beating a top player Frost Dexterity in an impressive manner.
I too have been completely destroyed by you and your teams multiple times. Congrats

I do want to point out that getting number one on ladder is no reason to call it a joke. You got lucky with the people who were, or weren't, playing at the time
Judging by your team there's no way you could have gotten past swaggg, XSTATIC or Kentari unless you are better at predictions than all 3 of them.

Last but not least
What's with the attitude?
We're supposed to have fun

 

[pizzq]

Nice job topping ladder with that team, I have to admit using 2 items on Garchomp to adapt to the current ladder is a great way to go about doing things.
I think we all witnessed the battle in which you got number one, beating a top player Frost Dexterity in an impressive manner.
I too have been completely destroyed by you and your teams multiple times. Congrats

I do want to point out that getting number one on ladder is no reason to call it a joke. You got lucky with the people who were, or weren't, playing at the time
Judging by your team there's no way you could have gotten past swaggg, XSTATIC or Kentari unless you are better at predictions than all 3 of them.

Last but not least
What's with the attitude?
We're supposed to have fun

o didnt mean to come off that way lmao

i guess im just stupid with my own sarcasm.

yeah im definitely not really good at this tier at all,,

also im just curious. what do kentari swaggg and XSTATIC use thats so good?
i would definitely be interested in learning more
and laddering in this tier again

 

[lost heros]

o didnt mean to come off that way lmao

i guess im just stupid with my own sarcasm.

yeah im definitely not really good at this tier at all,,

That's not true. Your team looks like a team I would build so it's definitely good. My only real change would be putting either Mega Charizard X or Kyurem-B in Garchomp's place. Kyurem-B is probably most similar switching between Icium Z and Choice Scarf (although go Specs if real) rather than Band and Scarf. Mega Charizard X can be made to adapt to most anything, but that usually requires EV changes rather than item changes so it's a bit more complex. It can go between Fast Offensive, Physically Defensive, Specially Defensive pretty fluidly.

XStatic uses Mega Gyarados + Steel-Type + 3rd typically.

Kentari changes it up but I think his most recent team has Lando-T, Mawile, and Meloetta? (Not really sure)

No clue what Swagg uses but it's probably something similar to that.

 

[pizzq]

That's not true. Your team looks like a team I would build so it's definitely good. My only real change would be putting either Mega Charizard X or Kyurem-B in Garchomp's place. Kyurem-B is probably most similar switching between Icium Z and Choice Scarf (although go Specs if real) rather than Band and Scarf. Mega Charizard X can be made to adapt to most anything, but that usually requires EV changes rather than item changes so it's a bit more complex. It can go between Fast Offensive, Physically Defensive, Specially Defensive pretty fluidly.

so is it normal to drop 300 points in one day??? haha
anyways thanks for the suggestions. if i ever get high again im sure people would CT me xd

 

[lost heros]

so is it normal to drop 300 points in one day??? haha
anyways thanks for the suggestions. if i ever get high again im sure people would CT me xd

Oh yea completely normal. Usually protocol is once you get to a certain point you make a second alt and get past that point. And then go back to the first alt only ever using them out of order to prevent decay. 1v1 is such a face paced Metagame that it's very easy to quickly drop in one sitting. My best advice for that is just stop for 10 - 15 minutes after a handful of losses, it stops tilt and gives the ladder a chunk of time to step away from your team.

 

[Felucia]

so is it normal to drop 300 points in one day??? haha
anyways thanks for the suggestions. if i ever get high again im sure people would CT me xd

Hey sorry for my rude post earlier I was (still am) in a bad mood

About swaggg: His current team is Tapu Lele, Charizard, Landorus-T I think. Though no matter how hard I try I don't remember seeing his landorus when we battled 20 minutes ago...

EDIT TIME <3 I KNEW I HAD A MEMORY

It's not lando atm, it's donphan