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Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Power-Up Punch
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
(This is 5iv but the missing stat is special attack so it doesn't matter)
So I switched my Aegislash to a Choice Scarf Garchomp (should I use Life Orb instead?):
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Flamethrower
(this is 6iv and i forgot to breed it for outrage so i just went with dragon claw, and flamethrower used to be fire blast but i only hit 3 fire blasts after using like 8 so i switched)
After I finished training that I went and got a 111 streak:
Replay of me losing: VNHW-WWWW-WW2H-YYSB
How I lost: I basically just lost because I decided that its worth risking Kangaskhan since I'm not sure if sucker punch OHKO's on Gallade (it doesn't). After that I finished off Gallade and didn't take the chance to set up Calm Mind on Jynx, Which led me to not be able to kill Slowbro in time.
More replays:
Me fighting the Battle Maison boss person for the first time: NWNG-WWWW-WW2H-YYV8
This is the beginning of the post 70 streak: 7D3G-WWWW-WW2H-YYU8
This is me 3 battles later having to stall out Mandibuzz until it used struggle: X4MW-WWWW-WW2H-YYT9
Thank you NoCheese (i will change the ev's on suicune i'm just waiting for defense reducing berries to grow), Vaporeonice, and Altissimo for the advice.
So I switched my Aegislash to a Choice Scarf Garchomp (should I use Life Orb instead?):
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Flamethrower
(this is 6iv and i forgot to breed it for outrage so i just went with dragon claw, and flamethrower used to be fire blast but i only hit 3 fire blasts after using like 8 so i switched)
After I finished training that I went and got a 111 streak:
Replay of me losing: VNHW-WWWW-WW2H-YYSB
How I lost: I basically just lost because I decided that its worth risking Kangaskhan since I'm not sure if sucker punch OHKO's on Gallade (it doesn't). After that I finished off Gallade and didn't take the chance to set up Calm Mind on Jynx, Which led me to not be able to kill Slowbro in time.
More replays:
Me fighting the Battle Maison boss person for the first time: NWNG-WWWW-WW2H-YYV8
This is the beginning of the post 70 streak: 7D3G-WWWW-WW2H-YYU8
This is me 3 battles later having to stall out Mandibuzz until it used struggle: X4MW-WWWW-WW2H-YYT9
Thank you NoCheese (i will change the ev's on suicune i'm just waiting for defense reducing berries to grow), Vaporeonice, and Altissimo for the advice, and Eevee General for believing in me. :)
Nice attempt! Jolly Kangaskhan outspeeds and OHKOs Gallade with Return, so there was no reason to risk the Sucker Punch. Scarf Garchomp's Outrage also OHKOs Gallade, so if you'd had the move, it was a really safe switch-in (and the AI would have them switched to Jynx, who would instantly faint to Outrage while it tried to Blizzard). Once Suicune was sleeping, you could have switched Garchomp in on Jynx's Psychic and OHKO'd with Earthquake. Slowbro really struggles to damage Suicune without SpDef drops, so the correct play once Suicune was hit by the SpDef drop was to switch in, and sacrifice, Garchomp.
I would probably opt for the following set on Garchomp:
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Fire Fang
If this were OU, a Speed-boosting nature would be important. But in the Maison, the only Pokemon you outspeed with Jolly/Naive instead of Adamant are Terrakion2 (who Suicune should beat anyway, and who Garchomp beats handily if you switch in to a Stone Edge aimed at Suicune) and Entei3 (who barely does any damage to Garchomp). Because you can't boost, the added power of Adamant Outrage is important. Earthquake is obvious. Rock Slide is only there to hit Volcarona4, who could otherwise be a really annoying Pokemon, but is OHKO'd by it 62.5% of the time. You might want to opt for Rock Tomb instead, which has a lower chance to KO after two hits, but a higher chance to hit at least once, leaving Volcarona in the kill range of Mega Kangaskhan's Earthquake (and dropping its speed, which might lead it to try to Quiver Dance against you again). That said, Hurricane won't OHKO Garchomp even at +2, so Volcarona needs a LOT of hax to beat Garchomp. I don't like Fire Fang, because the rest of your team handles all of its targets really well, mostly because its main targets (Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, Levitate Bronzong, Durant) generally have crappy sets in the Maison anyway and are easily handled by the rest of your team. But the only other options are Poison Jab, which does nothing except have a 81% to OHKO Gardevoir (compared to 56% chance with Earthquake), and Toxic, which is really only useful for trying to hit a rogue Zapdos2 and stall it out before it sets up too many Double Teams in your face. I'm still not convinced that Fire Fang is better than Toxic. You could run Flamethrower over Fire Fang (I haven't run the calcs for the relevant targets, so it might hit harder...the perfect accuracy is also a plus), but don't go with a different nature; you generally want that extra (Special) Defense more than you want the added power to Fire Fang.
I assume you ran Sand Veil over Rough Skin because it's easier to get (since it will rarely help you in any way, whereas Rough Skin will often do some nice chip damage and will KO stuff like Focus Sash Weavile, Infernape, and Garchomp), but it's worth breeding for the hidden ability. Plus, I'm sure someone out there will trade/give you a 5/6IV Adamant Gible with Rough Skin and Outrage.
Good luck! I do think this team can hit 200, so if that's a goal of yours, you should go for it. I made a hell of a lot of mistakes when I was first aiming for 200 wins, but mock battles can be really helpful for getting better.
EDIT: I'd avoid Life Orb, since it weakens Garchomp's ability to beat stuff like Terrakion and Infernape, who can cause problems for Mega Kangaskhan. If you were giving up the Scarf, the preferred set would be classic Jolly @ Lum Berry with SD, EQ, Outrage (maybe Dragon Claw), and Fire Fang or Sub, but I prefer the Scarf set for its ability to handle the fast Fighting-types who give MegaKhan problems. Infernape4 goes down to EQ+Rough Skin, Terrakion faints to EQ, and even the bulkiest Virizion is 2HKO'd by Adamant Outrage. While Cobalion generally avoids the OHKO from EQ, the only set that can retaliate particularly well is the Metal Burst set, which is slower than MegaKhan anyway. Without Scarf, Garchomp has to take more hits before KOing these opponents, putting itself at risk of fainting (and, by extension, putting your whole team at risk).
Also, remember that the only Mienshao you see after battle 40 runs no speed EVs, so you can just outspeed it and OHKO with MegaKhan, even if you're not Mega Evolved yet. As we learned from the battle you lost, checking the Maison speed tiers can be really helpful.
I don't like Fire Fang, because the rest of your team handles all of its targets really well, mostly because its main targets (Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, Levitate Bronzong, Durant) generally have crappy sets in the Maison anyway and are easily handled by the rest of your team. But the only other options are Poison Jab, which does nothing except have a 81% to OHKO Gardevoir (compared to 56% chance with Earthquake), and Toxic, which is really only useful for trying to hit a rogue Zapdos2 and stall it out before it sets up too many Double Teams in your face. I'm still not convinced that Fire Fang is better than Toxic. You could run Flamethrower over Fire Fang (I haven't run the calcs for the relevant targets, so it might hit harder...the perfect accuracy is also a plus), but don't go with a different nature; you generally want that extra (Special) Defense more than you want the added power to Fire Fang.
With Adamant Nature and perfect IV's, Flamethrower performs identically to Fire Fang for all practical purposes in the Maison except against Skarmory4, which is 3HKO'd by Fire Fang (~86% chance after miss chance factored in), but can only be 4HKO'd by Flamethrower without crits; and Ferrothorn4, where Fire Fang has a ~90% chance to 2HKO and Flamethrower can only 3HKO. (In theory Flamethrower isn't a bad choice for that latter situation anyway because a Fire Fang miss on a Curse turn means you wind up potentially eating some reasonably strong Gyro Balls along with some Iron Barbs damage, where Flamethrower doesn't worry about the Barbs or the Curse.) Imperfect IVs begin to eat away at Flamethrower's effectiveness quickly, however.
All that being said, I like Iron Head for that fourth slot. It fills the same niche Poison Jab might have but it gets a flinch chance as well (for a final 13.3% chance that Gardevoir will get to attack you before you KO her, down from 19%) and it doesn't immediately mean a switch against Shuckle, Gigalith, Aerodactyl, Archeops, Tyranitar, Rampardos, Bastiodon, Jynx, or Gengar (provided it doesn't go Destiny Bond on turn one against you), all of which are potential follow-up mons to Gardevoir.
It's also the best chance Garchomp has against Weavile4 or Froslass4, each of whom would be trouble for Aegislash if you've already lost Mega Kanga. 30% flinch is way better than 10% flinch, 10% burn, 5% miss chance. Edit: Actually, I now see he's running Sacred Sword on Aegislash, so Weavile4 wouldn't bother him much. Carry on, nothing to see here...
At long last the Battle Maison article that The Dutch Plumberjack and I co-wrote is live on-site! Read it here. Hope you enjoy it!
Huge thanks to everyone who made comments and suggestions, and to the whole Maison community for discussing your teams thoroughly in this thread, as without this discussion, the article probably never happens! I'm especially grateful to anto, who put in a TON of work HTMLizing the article and designing the on-site layout, and to Malley and P Squared, who very carefully GPed it.
In an unrelated note, I'm going to be out of town for a week starting Sunday, with extremely limited internet access, so I don't anticipate being able to update the leaderboard during that time.
I've also just uploaded singles writeups for Chansey and Mega Salamence (written by VaporeonIce himself), which probably warranted inclusion due to some recent events, so anyone who's interested should go check those out :3
Thought I'd post here as I've spent a little time on this!
Personally, I play a lot in the Battle Maison on Alpha Sapphire, having played a lot on Y also. So,whilst having the data available for the Battle Maison, it's a faff to have to try searching through it all to find the information I need.
Because of this, as well as a desire to do a bit of purposeful programming, I've made a little program that simplifies the search process quite dramatically. It's probably pretty rough around the edges, but if you search the trainer's name and the Pokémon they are using, it gives you its moveset and items and such, as per the data available online.
If anyone finds this useful or can think of any improvements, I'd love some suggestions! Hope you enjoy!
(note - I understand that the first few trainers aren't covered - this is due to the data of the trainers only existing past about battle 10, if I remember correctly.)
I wanted to play Salamence/Greninja again. Thinking a little, some of the biggest problems Salamence faced were:
1) Ice attacks, especially Blizzard which hits both Pokémon; staying in gets Mence killed, while switching gets your back-ups frozen, especially on Blizzard
2) Rock attacks and their users, including Rock Slide from Regirock1 which was involved in my previous loss with Salamence/Greninja/Scizor/Rotom-W
3) Paralysis and other assorted unpleasantries from select Electric-types such as Lanturn4, Jolteon4, Manectric4, Luxray4, Zapdos, Air Balloon holders. Greninja also does horribly against them.
After having seen Wide Guard do work against Rock Slide and Blizzard in AI Multis with Aerodactyl/Metagross-M, I got the idea of using Wide Guard Aegislash for the purpose of blocking Blizzard entirely - while also helping against Rock Slide and protecting Aegislash from Salamence's Earthquake. Wide Guard takes a move slot, so I opted for a special Aegislash set with King's Shield/Wide Guard/Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon (standard competitive Aegislash) since physical Aegislash wants all three of its moves, which I couldn't fit on the set.
It seemed good on paper, but I needed a fourth Pokémon to serve as the designated switch option for Electric-type attacks aimed at Greninja. The first choice I looked to was Thundurus-T, which sports Volt Absorb and could enjoy Wide Guard protection to help with its Rock/Ice-weaknesses.
Salamence/Greninja/Aegislash/Thundurus-T didn't work out well. Thundurus's shared weaknesses with Salamence were too much to handle, and a Choice Specs set did not synergize well with Aegislash.
Howewer, Wide Guard Aegislash showed a lot of potential, and I just needed something different for the fourth slot. I'd already rejected Rotom-W and Gastrodon due to their passivity - special Aegislash brought a lot to the table with Wide Guard, but it was very slow and had no priority, so the back-up needed to pick up the slack on that front. After some brainstorming, I considered Raikou with Hidden Power Ground - it resisted Electric, it had 115 base Speed, and it could hit Electric-types back with HP Ground, and an Earthquake weakness that could be covered by Aegislash's Wide Guard - howewer, Salamence's friendly Earthquake would not go well for it. By coincidence, I had already RNG'd and caught a shiny HP Ground Raikou on Soulsilver since I had originally SID abused for Entei, and didn't think I'd ever have use for Raikou and just grabbed a good shiny one for vanity.
For Raikou's moveset, I went for Thunderbolt/Snarl/HP Ground/Protect holding Life Orb. It worked alright, and Snarl also had great utility at times, allowing Raikou to handle Lati@s which otherwise walled it completely. Howewer - I still lost pretty quickly and after two or three attempts I wasn't completely convinced on Raikou as a whole. Thunderbolt/HP Ground had underwhelming coverage, and it sometimes lacked the offensive presence I needed from it.
Afterwards, I tried Life Orb Rotom-H using a set of Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Overheat/Protect, with the logic that its weakness to Surf and Rock Slide can be covered with Wide Guard and that it could get away with rarely using Overheat thanks to its BoltBeam coverage. It seemed more promising than Raikou, but I ultimately rejected it after losing in a haxy manner and being disappointed in its Speed and longevity.
I was stumped after that. Neither Raikou nor Rotom-H really had what I was looking for, and Wide Guard Aegislash, while strong, couldn't hold its own without a great partner. Instead, I tried to drop Aegislash altogether, and went for Salamence/Greninja/Scizor/Raikou, utilizing an Assault Vest set on Raikou for a bulkier take while Scizor takes up the Life Orb. That also proved unsuccesful - the killing blow was dealt by none other than Salamence's greatest weakness: freezes on the back-ups when switching out Salamence.
The situation looked rather grim for Salamence/Greninja at this point. No matter what back-ups I used, unless I could fit Scald, Flare Blitz or Lum Berry into them, I could not protect them from getting frozen on the switch. Wide Guard Aegislash could stop Blizzard - but to do that, it needed to switch in on Blizzard, which put it at risk of being frozen before it could start using Wide Guard. With Salamence/Hitmonlee/Scizor/Sylveon, I had a back-up plan of saccing Salamence to set up Tailwind - which isn't that great of a plan for long streaks in the first place, and obviously wouldn't be very good with physical Salamence. The only Scald user I could fit would be Gastrodon, which wasn't what I was looking for. I couldn't think of anything, and gave up on a Salamence/Greninja lead.
After abandoning the Salamence lead, I got another idea. What if, instead of leading with Salamence, I put something else in the lead position with Greninja so I don't have to switch Salamence out against Ice-attacking leads... wait, didn't I have something else that could possibly be a viable Mat Block lead on the team already?
That's right, Raikou. The extent of my involvement with it prior to bringing it to Salamence/Greninja/Aegislash was chalking it up as a possible alternative to Rotom-W and Mega Manectric as a Triples. If I put Raikou in the lead position with Choice Specs and Volt Switch, similar to the Mat Block + Volt Switch strategy in Triples, I can blow Articuno right out of the sky. Raikou's weak to Ground and cannot use Protect due to holding Specs, but I have a Salamence in the back. How about Raikou's other stats? Base 115 Speed puts it in the same effective Speed tier as Mega Lucario, and 166 Special Attack (with HP Ground) gives it 11 less Special Attack than Zapdos, and 10 less Special Attack than the Thundurus-T spread I used in Triples. Speed-wise, it doesn't suffer from Rotom-W's slowness, and could plausibly sweep off the bat as well.
It's a long shot, and Raikou doesn't seem like a stellar pick - but it could work.
Let's cut to the chase - it ended up working beyond my expectations. Posting a streak of 1030 wins in ORAS Doubles.
For Raikou, I changed Snarl to Shadow Ball when shifting it to the lead position, since locking into Snarl seemed like a horrible option in all cases. EV-wise, I dropped Speed to 180, losing out on tying Starmie and opposing Raikou, and tying with +1 Volcarona4, and invested the remainder to HP. A calc:
248 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric: 142-168 (97.9 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Greninja remains the same as always.
On Salamence, I had switched to a Jolly nature in previous versions of the team already - but as a lead, it missed the power of Adamant and I was unsure of which nature was better. As a back-up, Jolly is the only choice. Earthquake with two teammates that are weak to Electric is optimistic, but thanks to Wide Guard allowing unlimited Earthquake usage when Aegislash is out and the team's ability to handle some traditional Earthquake targets such as Manectric and Jolteon by other means, it is manageable.
I EV'd Aegislash to survive Landorus2 Sheer Force Earth Power, as I'd lost to it with a prior lead Salamence version of the team - the situation where it's essential has not yet occurred during this streak, but I haven't missed the minimal Special Attack that the investment required, either. Since special Aegislash is much more passive and may spend a dozen turns doing nothing except using Wide Guard, Leftovers turned out to be the best item for it, allowing it to win stall wars it would lose otherwise (with its lack of Sacred Sword) and keep using Wide Guard even if it takes a bit of unexpected damage.
Raikou is, in a way, Lucario and Rotom-W from Triples rolled into one slot: it has Lucario's Speed and Rotom-W's Volt Switch, but lacks the offensive presence and coverage of Lucario (and the ability to switch moves and use Protect) and Rotom-W's bulk and typing. Mat Block + Volt Switch is not as potent as in Triples since there are only two switch options, of which Aegislash is not a fast, hard hitter; but it most importantly enables safely shifting into a Salamence/Greninja mode without losing momentum when Salamence faces no major obstacles, which is the case in most battles. One downside is that setting up a free Dragon Dance and sweeping is not as common, but Jolly Salamence is less dependent on getting the boost and a lead MU with the enemy leads KO'd and little damage taken is generally good enough to all but guarantee the win anyway. I don't think Raikou is a stronger Greninja partner on its own than Salamence or even Mega Lucario - its true power lies in being able to deploy Salamence and eliminate its counters and avoid getting the team frozen as a result, and being able to more easily work around its bad match-ups with Volt Switch and a single weakness.
Instead of an Electric-immune back-up, Aegislash is the dedicated switch-in to attacks such as Jolteon4 Thunderbolt. Thanks to Leftovers, it handles the hits a little better than a more offensive Aegislash would, and minds paralysis comparatively little - it's never a good status to have, but as far as paralysis targets go, Aegislash is the Pokémon that minds it the least out of common Doubles picks.
The team plays out like you'd expect from Mat Block, but there are a few things worth mentioning. Firstly, Raikou is not Rotom-W and can get into very poor situations if it's locked into an unpreferable move, so it's important to use Volt Switch whenever possible - even at a small cost like taking a bit of damage on Salamence - to avoid getting into such a situation. For example, locking into Thunderbolt against a Veteran can be extremely costly if Lati@s1 comes out and manages to set up as a result.
Secondly, Raikou will generally have to switch out without using Volt Switch if there is a risk of Lightning Rod, Sand Rush, Quick Claw Donphan and Muk, Scarf Landorus, Rasmus's Garchomp3, or other threats that can KO it - Rotom-W enjoys a very small pool of potential threats by comparison, but Raikou needs a lot more babysitting.
Thirdly, switching out Greninja to preserve its Focus Sash is a more common play with this team thanks to Aegislash's switch power, and there is the possibility of going "switch Greninja for Aegislash -> Volt Switch into Salamence" when suitable, or doing the same and VSing Greninja instead for a 2nd turn Mat Block as in Triples. Some match-ups such as Landorus (which may OHKO Raikou with EP or go for Focus Blast on Greninja) also call for a T1 double switch. In general, there are a lot of potential lead moves, and choosing incorrectly can get disastrous much more quickly than in Triples.
To try to explain why Raikou ended up being viable, let's try comparing it to its Electric-type brethren in more depth:
Raikou's base stats: 90/85/75/115/100/115 - stats of 169/x/96/166/120/180 with the given EVs
Thundurus-T's base stats: 79/105/70/145/80/101 - stats of 174/x/91/176/100/168 with a 164 HP spread
Zapdos's base stats: 90/90/85/125/90/100 - stats of 166/x/105/177/110/167 with a simple spread
Rotom-W's stats: 147/x/127/154/128/133 with my spread
You don't think of Raikou when considering Electric-types with great stats, but Raikou is surprisingly competitive. It has more Special bulk than both Zapdos and Thundurus, and very slightly more physical bulk than the Specs Thundurus-T spread I use, which means it's actually quite decent on both sides. A few calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 28 HP / 8 Def Raikou: 138-164 (81.6 - 97%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bouffalant Earthquake vs. 28 HP / 8 Def Raikou: 135-161 (79.8 - 95.2%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 135-160 (79.8 - 94.6%)
Raikou's much higher Speed also contributes to its viability. Outspeeding Genies, Musketeers, base 110s such as Lati@s and Archeops, Greninja4 and Talonflame4 among others is very nice and gives it superior match-ups against them compared to the others. Raikou's Pressure is also surprisingly useful, allowing it to deplete 5 PP moves very quickly - including dangerous ones such as Blizzard and Draco Meteor. It also helps during stall wars against Registeel1 and Lanturn4. With Raikou in the lead where it does not tank Electric-type attacks regularly, I think Pressure is a better ability than its unreleased HA (Volt Absorb) would be for this team. If Volt Absorb were released, I think it'd mostly increase Raikou's viability as a back-up.
Raikou's movepool is atrocious, but with HP Ground and the power of Specs it has everything the team needs - if only barely. I think Life Orb fell short on the power curve, but Specs drives it up to sufficient levels and really brings out Raikou's decent natural bulk with the lack of Life Orb recoil.
Why are Electric-types so good in the Maison in the first place? I think a big factor is that Electric-types gained an immunity to paralysis in the sixth generation. This change makes the Electric mirror match-up quite favorable even against bulkier T-Wave users such as Luxray, and with Greninja as the new powerhouse that absolutely detests Electric-types, the timing is just right for Electrics to hit the switch. Between Raikou and Aegislash, this team can largely avoid the fallout of Luxray4 much of the time, for example - Rotom-W in Triples also brings a lot of utility with its T-Wave immunity.
With two Pokémon that are weak to Ground, friendly fire from Mega Salamence, and no Protect on Raikou, Wide Guard is essential to the team. The attacks I was thinking of when theorymoning Aegislash were Blizzard and Rock Slide, but it has ended up blocking about every spread move in the Maison, including Heat Wave, Lava Plume, Eruption, Dazzling Gleam, Surf, Earthquake, Icy Wind, Bulldoze, and Muddy Water. It turns out the team has weaknesses to most spread moves that allow Wide Guard to shine - Aegislash fears Fire and Ground, Salamence and Greninja appreciate blocking Dazzling Gleam, Speed drops from Icy Wind and Bulldoze hurt everyone and the AI loves to use the moves, blocking Rain-boosted Surf has been essential in a few close battle, and there are many sets whose only attacking moves are only comprised of spread moves that are walled by Wide Guard completely. I think Aegislash is easily the MVP, bringing the glue and support that's needed.
Threat-wise, the team hates trainers that can run multiple different sets. Wide Guard (which is the entire purpose of running a special Aegislash which is otherwise inferior to a physical one for Maison purposes) is dependent on knowing what set you are facing, and not knowing means it is not safe to use. As an additional hindrance, many set1-3s also carry single-target moves where their set4 counterparts do not, which hampers Aegislash's effectiveness and outright annihilates it in some cases.
The single largest threat trainer is Worker Rasmus. Raikou matches up poorly against him when not supported by Mat Block or Wide Guard - Mega Salamence and Aegislash do well, but a couple of sets like Garchomp1, Excadrill1 and Gastrodon3 carry single-target Ground moves that Aegislash dislikes. There is also Ferrothorn1 which spreads paralysis with T-Wave to cripple the whole team with no way to KO it quickly. I lost the third attempt with this team to Rasmus at battle 150; if he pulls out the right combination of Pokémon, there is very little the team can do.
Beauty Lana and Chef Cobb are also troublesome, though a little less so due to Raikou doing well against them and Wide Guard's effectiveness against Rain-boosted Surf and Blizzard. Punk Guy Puck can get messy, but is usually handled with Intimidate support on his near-fully physical line-up and the team having only one physical attacker.
Ace Trainer Bunny and Ace Trainer Jai are usually a bit less dangerous than the weather specialists - the main thing is their unpredictable sets that make Specs Raikou and Aegislash awkward to use. Special mention to Ferrothorn2, which carry Payback to slam Aegislash which I rely on to handle Ferrothorn and can get very ugly.
Veterans are the other multi-set threat, though I rate them lower than the rest. Their unpredictability is not as big of a problem, but they carry Pokémon the team matches up somewhat poorly against such as Raikou, Lati@s, Regigigas, Regice, Zapdos, RP Registeel and Scarf Landorus.
Finally, Furisode Girls have some nasty surprises for the team. Sylveon1-3 carry Moonblast (with Special Attack drops) and Shadow Ball, which gives Aegislash a very bad time with Sylveon's great special bulk on top making them difficult to kill for 3/4 of the team, and Salamence not enjoying the Fairy-type attacks with Vaporeon and Glaceon on the side. The usual Yawn/GrassWhistle/Swagger/T-Wave/Glaceon antics that no team enjoys are also there. Furisode Girls were the trainers that made me wish I had a physical Aegislash set instead of a special Wide Guard set the most.
Against Roller Skaters, Raikou with HP Ground and Aegislash do well. Paralysis sucks, but with Leftovers Aegislash has a little more breathing room to stick around and can take on the likes of Luxray4 and Lanturn4. Chef Frank is not a problem. The starter breeders also don't do much - Typhlosion3 Eruption is stopped by Wide Guard and Raikou/Greninja KO the Water-types that could cause problems for Salamence.
#1468 - HPMG-WWWW-WW2L-AZQK vs. Regigigas/Landorus/Raikou/Latias
The loss. I misplay against a Veteran, clicking Thunderbolt over Volt Switch, which results in a loss with a bit of poor luck sprinkled on top.
#1405 - 8JBG-WWWW-WW2Z-2BX6 vs. Virizion/Registeel/Regirock/Zapdos
How does the team handle Curse/Amnesia Registeel, which walls the entire team after a couple of boosts, with Salamence poisoned and at low HP while Greninja is already dead? Watch to find out (warning: 60-turn battle). This is the standard play against Registeel1 leads with this team, and the most interesting battle video out of the ones featuring it.
There are other Pokémon that the team has to situationally PP stall such as Lanturn4, but Registeel is the most flashy one.
#1314 - BGNG-WWWW-WW2Z-2B48 vs. Zapdos/Registeel/Moltres/Entei
Close battle with a lot of flinch hax from RP Registeel.
#1227 - ZH6G-WWWW-WW2Z-28HK vs. Ferrothorn/Umbreon/Tentacruel/Dusknoir
Bunny's Ferrothorn2. A very scary battle that I could've lost if the AI acted differently. Sash Tentacruel did not use Mirror Coat, and Ferrothorn made bad moves in the end - without getting those breaks and a weak Dusknoir set as the final Pokémon, it was not looking good.
#1199 - 9F3W-WWWW-WW2Z-28UL vs. Marowak/Emboar/Tauros/Froslass
I misplay against the leads, ending up in a situation where I face Emboar4 and Froslass4 with Salamence and Aegislash on the field. Wide Guard is a good move.
#856 - NB3G-WWWW-WW2Z-29T3 vs. Terrakion/Raikou/Latias/Articuno
Close battle with a slew of threats. Raikou gets a lot of Calm Mind boosts, but the AI plays poorly at the end, saving the streak.
#156 - UNSG-WWWW-WW2Z-2BC4 vs. Tyranitar/Excadrill/Garchomp/Ferrothorn
The loss of my third attempt with this team, prior to this one. Rasmus rolls out and completely destroys the team with close to zero possibility to win, with a bit of timely hax to secure the battle. It's possible to survive Rasmus for longer than 155 battles as this 1467-win streak on the 4th attempt shows with good luck to avoid running into his worst sets, but you can also lose to him entirely like in this battle.
#1030 - MUAW-WWWW-WW2Y-MW7Z vs. Quagsire/Clawitzer/Mienshao/Aggron
Initial proof video, now taken down.
Edit: quick description of the team
Edit (August 16): more stuff
Edit (August 26): loss BV, Wide Guard
Edit (September 9): trainer threats, more BVs
turskain , that is sick. I never would have pegged Specs Raikou as such a good Doubles lead, but those kinds of awesome surprises are what makes the Maison so cool. Well done!
Hey there, i took a look at the guide on the Battle Maison on this site. It was certainly well-written and very informative. I would like to offer a few suggestions to help improve this guide for newcomers to this thread and the art of fighting in the Battle Maison.
1. i would suggest separating the Threatlist and Resources section into their separate parts in their guide, a different Part 4. Throughout your article, you made constant references to the Pokemon list and Speed tiers in the Resource section "below". Imagine my surprise when i didn't find anything at the bottom of the page. Furthermore, if i did not read the article through, i would not have found them because at the bottom of Part 1 and at the overview, there were no links to the resource section at all.
2. I would suggest recommending Snail489's Excel List of Pokemon and Trainer Sets rather TRE's plaintext list when referring to because of the superior formatting and organisation. I never took a second look at TRE's list because of the sheer glut of info during my Maison run at all.
3. In terms of headers, rather than Generic titles, the different parts could certainly have better decriptions. I.e,
Part One - Introduction to the Battle Maison
Part Two - Single and Doubles Overview
Part Three - Triples, Multi and Rotations Overview
Part Four - Threatlist and Helpful Resources
I wanted to play Salamence/Greninja again. Thinking a little, some of the biggest problems Salamence faced were:
1) Ice attacks, especially Blizzard which hits both Pokémon; staying in gets Mence killed, while switching gets your back-ups frozen, especially on Blizzard
2) Rock attacks and their users, including Rock Slide from Regirock1 which was involved in my previous loss with Salamence/Greninja/Scizor/Rotom-W
3) Paralysis and other assorted unpleasantries from select Electric-types such as Lanturn4, Jolteon4, Manectric4, Luxray4, Zapdos, Air Balloon holders. Greninja also does horribly against them.
After having seen Wide Guard do work against Rock Slide and Blizzard in AI Multis with Aerodactyl/Metagross-M, I got the idea of using Wide Guard Aegislash for the purpose of blocking Blizzard entirely - while also helping against Rock Slide and protecting Aegislash from Salamence's Earthquake. Wide Guard takes a move slot, so I opted for a special Aegislash set with King's Shield/Wide Guard/Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon (standard competitive Aegislash) since physical Aegislash wants all three of its moves, which I couldn't fit on the set.
It seemed good on paper, but I needed a fourth Pokémon to serve as the designated switch option for Electric-type attacks aimed at Greninja. The first choice I looked to was Thundurus-T, which sports Volt Absorb and could enjoy Wide Guard protection to help with its Rock/Ice-weaknesses.
Salamence/Greninja/Aegislash/Thundurus-T didn't work out well. Thundurus's shared weaknesses with Salamence were too much to handle, and a Choice Specs set did not synergize well with Aegislash.
Howewer, Wide Guard Aegislash showed a lot of potential, and I just needed something different for the fourth slot. I'd already rejected Rotom-W and Gastrodon due to their passivity - special Aegislash brought a lot to the table with Wide Guard, but it was very slow and had no priority, so the back-up needed to pick up the slack on that front. After some brainstorming, I considered Raikou with Hidden Power Ground - it resisted Electric, it had 115 base Speed, and it could hit Electric-types back with HP Ground, and an Earthquake weakness that could be covered by Aegislash's Wide Guard - howewer, Salamence's friendly Earthquake would not go well for it. By coincidence, I had already RNG'd and caught a shiny HP Ground Raikou on Soulsilver since I had originally SID abused for Entei, and didn't think I'd ever have use for Raikou and just grabbed a good shiny one for vanity.
For Raikou's moveset, I went for Thunderbolt/Snarl/HP Ground/Protect holding Life Orb. It worked alright, and Snarl also had great utility at times, allowing Raikou to handle Lati@s which otherwise walled it completely. Howewer - I still lost pretty quickly and after two or three attempts I wasn't completely convinced on Raikou as a whole. Thunderbolt/HP Ground had underwhelming coverage, and it sometimes lacked the offensive presence I needed from it.
Afterwards, I tried Life Orb Rotom-H using a set of Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Overheat/Protect, with the logic that its weakness to Surf and Rock Slide can be covered with Wide Guard and that it could get away with rarely using Overheat thanks to its BoltBeam coverage. It seemed more promising than Raikou, but I ultimately rejected it after losing in a haxy manner and being disappointed in its Speed and longevity.
I was stumped after that. Neither Raikou nor Rotom-H really had what I was looking for, and Wide Guard Aegislash, while strong, couldn't hold its own without a great partner. Instead, I tried to drop Aegislash altogether, and went for Salamence/Greninja/Scizor/Raikou, utilizing an Assault Vest set on Raikou for a bulkier take while Scizor takes up the Life Orb. That also proved unsuccesful - the killing blow was dealt by none other than Salamence's greatest weakness: freezes on the back-ups when switching out Salamence.
The situation looked rather grim for Salamence/Greninja at this point. No matter what back-ups I used, unless I could fit Scald, Flare Blitz or Lum Berry into them, I could not protect them from getting frozen on the switch. Wide Guard Aegislash could stop Blizzard - but to do that, it needed to switch in on Blizzard, which put it at risk of being frozen before it could start using Wide Guard. With Salamence/Hitmonlee/Scizor/Sylveon, I had a back-up plan of saccing Salamence to set up Tailwind - which isn't that great of a plan for long streaks in the first place, and obviously wouldn't be very good with physical Salamence. The only Scald user I could fit would be Gastrodon, which wasn't what I was looking for. I couldn't think of anything, and gave up on a Salamence/Greninja lead.
After abandoning the Salamence lead, I got another idea. What if, instead of leading with Salamence, I put something else in the lead position with Greninja so I don't have to switch Salamence out against Ice-attacking leads... wait, didn't I have something else that could possibly be a viable Mat Block lead on the team already?
That's right, Raikou. The extent of my involvement with it prior to bringing it to Salamence/Greninja/Aegislash was chalking it up as a possible alternative to Rotom-W and Mega Manectric as a Triples. If I put Raikou in the lead position with Choice Specs and Volt Switch, similar to the Mat Block + Volt Switch strategy in Triples, I can blow Articuno right out of the sky. Raikou's weak to Ground and cannot use Protect due to holding Specs, but I have a Salamence in the back. How about Raikou's other stats? Base 115 Speed puts it in the same effective Speed tier as Mega Lucario, and 166 Special Attack (with HP Ground) gives it 11 less Special Attack than Zapdos, and 10 less Special Attack than the Thundurus-T spread I used in Triples. Speed-wise, it doesn't suffer from Rotom-W's slowness, and could plausibly sweep off the bat as well.
It's a long shot, and Raikou doesn't seem like a stellar pick - but it could work.
Let's cut to the chase - it ended up working beyond my expectations. Posting a streak of 1030 wins in ORAS Doubles.
For Raikou, I changed Snarl to Shadow Ball when shifting it to the lead position, since locking into Snarl seemed like a horrible option in all cases. EV-wise, I dropped Speed to 180, losing out on tying Starmie and opposing Raikou, and tying with +1 Volcarona4, and invested the remainder to HP. A calc:
248 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric: 142-168 (97.9 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Greninja remains the same as always.
On Salamence, I had switched to a Jolly nature in previous versions of the team already - but as a lead, it missed the power of Adamant and I was unsure of which nature was better. As a back-up, Jolly is the only choice. Earthquake with two teammates that are weak to Electric is optimistic, but thanks to Wide Guard allowing unlimited Earthquake usage when Aegislash is out and the team's ability to handle some traditional Earthquake targets such as Manectric and Jolteon by other means, it is manageable.
I EV'd Aegislash to survive Landorus2 Sheer Force Earth Power, as I'd lost to it with a prior lead Salamence version of the team - the situation where it's essential has not yet occurred during this streak, but I haven't missed the minimal Special Attack that the investment required, either. Since special Aegislash is much more passive and may spend a dozen turns doing nothing except using Wide Guard, Leftovers turned out to be the best item for it, allowing it to win stall wars it would lose otherwise (with its lack of Sacred Sword) and keep using Wide Guard even if it takes a bit of unexpected damage.
Raikou is, in a way, Lucario and Rotom-W from Triples rolled into one slot: it has Lucario's Speed and Rotom-W's Volt Switch, but lacks the offensive presence and coverage of Lucario (and the ability to switch moves and use Protect) and Rotom-W's bulk and typing. Mat Block + Volt Switch is not as potent as in Triples since there are only two switch options, of which Aegislash is not a fast, hard hitter; but it most importantly enables safely shifting into a Salamence/Greninja mode without losing momentum when Salamence faces no major obstacles, which is the case in most battles. One downside is that setting up a free Dragon Dance and sweeping is not as common, but Jolly Salamence is less dependent on getting the boost and a lead MU with the enemy leads KO'd and little damage taken is generally good enough to all but guarantee the win anyway. I don't think Raikou is a stronger Greninja partner on its own than Salamence or even Mega Lucario - its true power lies in being able to deploy Salamence and eliminate its counters and avoid getting the team frozen as a result, and being able to more easily work around its bad match-ups with Volt Switch and a single weakness.
Instead of an Electric-immune back-up, Aegislash is the dedicated switch-in to attacks such as Jolteon4 Thunderbolt. Thanks to Leftovers, it handles the hits a little better than a more offensive Aegislash would, and minds paralysis comparatively little - it's never a good status to have, but as far as paralysis targets go, Aegislash is the Pokémon that minds it the least out of common Doubles picks.
More comments incoming later as the streak hopefully progresses.
#1030 - MUAW-WWWW-WW2Y-MW7Z vs. Quagsire/Clawitzer/Mienshao/Aggros
Just the proof video of the ongoing streak for the time being.
Which partner would be recommended for ORAS Multis? I like Maxie because Crobat doesn't get killed by Terrakion's Earthquake, but Wally's Gallade is more powerful, and his Magnezone is immune to Earthquake.
Most people go with Steven as his pokemon have a good balance of power/bulk and speed. If u get to 50 wins with one of the others as their pokemon work better with who you want to use yourself then u'd get a few nods of approval! Also be careful of using Ai partners that have status or set up moves etc as they'll use them pointlessly when u really need them to attack..All Stevens moves are attacking so you know each turn. that he'll do just that!
Which partner would be recommended for ORAS Multis? I like Maxie because Crobat doesn't get killed by Terrakion's Earthquake, but Wally's Gallade is more powerful, and his Magnezone is immune to Earthquake.
I've also just uploaded singles writeups for Chansey and Mega Salamence (written by VaporeonIce himself), which probably warranted inclusion due to some recent events, so anyone who's interested should go check those out :3
I definitely agree on this. Note that in a similar spirit, I'm very tempted to add a discussion of Starmie4 to the threatlist, perhaps under a header like "speedy smashers" or some such to tie in things like Infernape4 too. Perhaps even more than Walrein, Starmie is one of the first foes I think about when theorymoning a team. But adding this is not a huge priority, and I do understand that trying to write too much about too many specific things may dilute the "generalist" nature of the article.
Hey there, i took a look at the guide on the Battle Maison on this site. It was certainly well-written and very informative. I would like to offer a few suggestions to help improve this guide
I'll take a look. Certainly, terms like "below" may seem a little confusing when the article is broken into three pieces due to length, though I feel it's pretty easy to figure out where to find them anyway. And the spreadsheets are definitely cleaner to work with than the raw enemy set data.
At first I thought the threats list was pretty narrow, but when you think about it, there aren't a lot of things that can often claim to be bad news just by being there. IMO Starmie does not have that kind of presence, certainly not more than Walrein. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve its spot on this topic's very own threat list, but I feel confident in saying that any truly bad experience skilled players have had with Starmie4 is a testament to the inopportune screwings of the King's Rock and not Starmie's coverage or offense. Apart from being faster, I have a hard time seeing it as a bigger threat than some Terrakion sets (obviously a speed threatlist would still tie that name in as well.)
If exceedingly specific things detract from the nature you want to set for the article, perhaps Starmie does not really qualify. To me, once you take away that King's Rock, Starmie is nothing more than your standard "decent offensive moveset with the BST to utilize it" enemy, and a lot of things can claim that fame. Tyrantrum, Walrein, Zapdos and Volcarona package a number of things that can make them problems even for their checks. I will grant that hax is still a big part of what makes them scary, though, so perhaps the unique element of hax Starmie brings warrants a mention. One more entry won't negatively impact the article, and new players might appreciate the heads up without needing to scour a data dump.
I feel confident in saying that any truly bad experience skilled players have had with Starmie4 is a testament to the inopportune screwings of the King's Rock and not Starmie's coverage or offense.
Oh, the King's Rock absolutely is what changes Starmie4 into such a major issue for me. Making most (not all, but most) counters 10% less reliable really is a big deal over a long streak. Lots of stuff counters or at least revenge kills Starmie barring hax. But if you assume a flinch, crit, or side effect (or even just a flinch), the list becomes a lot shorter.
That said, your points are well taken, and I'm not going to make such an addition to the article without further reflection.
EDIT: to expand, what makes such hax particularly scary is that Starmie hits just hard enough to get a ton of 2HKOs, is fast enough to outspeed most things, and is just bulky enough to avoid being OHKOed by most attacks. This combination means that even a single flinch can be crushing, barring extremely specially bulky switch-ins like Chansey. Very few things can both outspeed and OHKO Starmie (thank goodness for Sucker Punch Mega Kangaskhan), so switch-ins often have to eat two attacks and revenge killers still have to take one. Last generation, before the downing of special attacks, I remember how excited I was when I discovered that Modest Choice Scarf Latios could just barely guarantee the OHKO on Starmie with Thunderbolt. I didn't end up using it, but my excitement (and eagerness to run the calcs) was a symptom of how large Starmie loomed (and looms) in my mind. Now, part of this may be a mental holdover from the fact that many of my early, decidedly bad teams were ripped apart by Starmie, and it's definitely a lesser issue for well built squads, but if we're trying to teach the less-experienced, Starmie stands out as a real streak-killer. So there is certainly at least some merit to giving it specific discussion.
I play Kangaskhan pretty conservatively because Gliscor/Chansey is weaker to certain physical set-up sweepers than Gliscor/Suicune (although I have PP stalled stuff like Gyarados, Hippowdon, Steelix, and Umbreon before when Kangaskhan was out of the picture). So stuff like Charizard, Gliscor, and Tangrowth that Kanga can usually get to +2 against warrants a Chansey switch. It has a pretty fun defensive 'synergy' with Chansey that results in the opponent using all of its non-Ghost moves first so you can waste PP with Chansey and then bring Kangaskhan back in and set up Scrappy Power-Up Punch while the opponent uses something like Shadow Ball. Only other thing of note is that I have PuP PP Maxed for a better chance of getting to +6 against Pressure Zapdos 2 after Chansey PP stalls it.
Fighting bad. Gliscor good. Same as Jumpman's spread because I wanted to do more of a one-to-one comparison between Suicune and Chansey. Sometimes I wonder if I should make Gliscor more physically defensive since Chansey already takes a massive egg-shaped crap on pretty much every special attacker, but being able to have Gliscor's Sub survive Power Gem from Ampharos is a nice enough convenience (Chansey has no problem setting up on Ampharos but it would inevitably get Staticed while taking it down).
The best singles set for Chansey. When using a stall-heavy team, you want to minimize (ba dum chhh) the likelihood you lose momentum after KOing the opponent's lead, and the Sub/Minimize combo does just that. No Toxic means you know exactly when the opponent is going to faint (or use Rest, in which case you can switch to Kangaskhan and grab a free +4 boost) and you can use the free moveset to go toe-to-toe with Medicham, Conkledurr, Tyrantrum, or anything else that you wouldn't want to be granting a free turn of attacking. I honestly feel as though a set-up Chansey mows through the opponent as often as a Suicune with 6 Calm Minds would; it just deals its damage 50 HP at a time in exchange for being able to switch in against more opponents and to have a precious Substitute. I'd much rather have Chansey in than Gliscor, so I do stuff like hit Shuckle and Cofagrigus with a Toxic and then bring Chansey in to set up.
Chansey can switch in and fully set up on leads as varied as Starmie, Tangrowth, Entei, Porygon-Z, Glaceon, Salamence, Electivire, Jynx, Zapdos, Moltres, Gliscor, Floatzel, Noivern, Tornadus, Regice, Abomasnow, Gardevoir, Bouffalant, and Leafeon, to name just a few (anything less threatening begs a 3-4 turn Kangaskhan sweep). This is made all the more impressive by the fact that Chansey is more often than not coming in on the opponent's strongest move against it; if it takes a critical hit Special Defense dropping Focus Blast on the switch, that just means I probably need to use Soft-Boiled the first turn rather than Sub or Minimize. If I bring in Chansey and KO the lead while keeping Kangaskhan scot-free, anything else is pretty much icing on the cake since I can't think of a single set 4 Pokemon that can beat Kangaskhan and Gliscor 1-on-2. In other words, if I've got +6 Evasion Chansey at 100% health behind a Sub and the 2nd Pokemon out is some scary set-up monster like Garchomp, I'm totally fine to go ahead with the Seismic Tosses until Chansey faints, knowing that no matter what, I'll do enough damage for Kangaskhan to revenge with Sucker Punch and that Chansey just needs to evade one attack to KO Garchomp first.
One goofy Gen 6 mechanic change I learned while using this team that I never would've learned otherwise - a few more moves have joined the illustrious Stomp club as attacks that do double damage against you if you've used Minimize. Not only that, but these attacks will now never miss. So don't get too confused against Dragon Rush, Body Slam, and Flying Press users.
Some threats I came across
-------------------------------
Diverse lead sets: Formerly an interesting part of the challenge in the Battle Tower/Subway, now all but gone due to nearly every trainer being exclusively set 4 and so many Pokemon having relatively similar sets 1-4. I've still had 3-4 battles where I went to Gliscor on the first turn only to have an uncommon set (Virizion 4, Hawlucha 3) use Swords Dance on the switch. In those cases, missing the first Toxic probably would have resulted in a loss, whether due to getting swept outright or having to sacrifice one of Gliscor/Chansey and allowing the other to take heavy damage. When Lati@s 3 is possibly leading, I'm forced to Sucker Punch turn 1, which kinda sucks considering Chansey eats every other set for lunch.
Fighting-type wallbreakers: There are a few Fighting types Gliscor doesn't completely own, such as Infernape 4, Sawk 4, and Terrakion 2. For these three, Close Combat followed by a critical hit from their strongest move against Gliscor (even with PH recovery between the two) can leave me at too low of health to commence the whole Sub/Protect cycle. Either that, or Taunt/Encore will prevent Gliscor from using Sub in the first place. I suppose with Suicune instead of Chansey you can do a little back-and-forth switching to get rid of PP and make it safer for one of the two to set up, but I'm not sure how foolproof it would be in the face of crits or Flare Blitz burning. Anyway, those three in the lead position generally result in the 2nd Pokemon coming out to a Gliscor at around half health and no Sub. Usually this leads to some Water or Ice type Chansey bait coming out 2nd, but I wouldn't particularly enjoy having that 2nd Pokemon be something like Darmanitan or Moxie Salamence or probably a few other things that I can't think of. The closest situation to that has been a battle in which Arcanine followed up an Infernape lead. I let Arcanine KO Gliscor with Flare Blitz and then was able to set up Chansey because it is that much of a freaking beast.
Lead Pinsir: Hmm, easy switch to Gliscor because it will go with the super-effective Close Combat, right?. Nope, the first two times I faced it Gliscor got Guillotined on turn 1. That basically put me at a 30% chance of losing - actually a little less because even if it KOed Chansey Kangaskhan would have a 70% chance of being able to PuP then Sucker Punch for the KO and take on the rest of the team at +2 and full health. Luckily (again, I'd probably have 5000 Singles wins in a row by now if my Glalie team had a similar amount of luck) Chansey got a Sub up on the first turn in both cases, which allowed me to stall Guillotine out and set up a little with Kangaskhan while Pinsir Struggled. After the 2nd time, I decided that I'd switch to Chansey first because Gliscor could at least waste an extra PP with Protect in the event Pinsir started 2-2 on Guillotine. Of course, I've only faced it as a lead one time since, and I switched in Chansey to have it take a critical hit Close Combat (which it survived, incidentally). Never change, Battle Maison.
CH Explosion: I wanna use PuP and then KO stuff like Claydol or Golem. Sometimes they use Explosion on the first turn and get a crit to KO Kangaskhan. I mean, Chansey could come in, try setting up, and take those Explosions like a champ, but I don't really want to have the 2nd Pokemon come out to a weakened Chansey when the overwhelming majority of the time I could have been en route to a 4-turn Kangaskhan sweep.
Battle videos
-------------------
#1,560: The Spiritomb lead has Pressure instead of Infiltrator so once Gliscor Toxics it, I bring in Chansey, which uses the Sub and +2 Evasion to stall Gallade out of Close Combat and set up further. X77W-WWWW-WW2K-UC5T
#1,000: just a M-Kangaskhan sweep. Did take a little finessing at the beginning to ensure Kangaskhan KOed Shiftry with Power-up Punch without taking any prior damage. AVXG-WWWWW-WW2J-ML34
I'll try to just list the ones that are somewhat unique. Obviously if there's no chance of a crit or status incapacitating Kangaskhan, go ahead and get to +2 and sweep.
Charizard: switch to Chansey and set up
Blastoise: PuP the first turn. If it Yawns, switch to Gliscor and switch back to Kangaskhan. Waterfall will do enough damage to make it go for the Focus Punch KO, so you can PuP again and then KO with Return.
Feraligatr: Return on turn 1. If it DD'ed Sucker Punch for the KO. If not, finish it off with PuP.
Infernape: Switch to Gliscor and KO with EQ. Don't use Protect as you will get Encored.
Serperior; PuP then Sucker Punch. If it's Contrary and crits Kangaskhan, uh oh.
Blaziken: KO with Return. Chansey could probably do alright switching in because it's light enough for Low Kick to do less than Flare Blitz, but I just take the free KO.
Typhlosion: Switch to Chansey and set up.
Emboar: Chansey
Samurott: Chansey
Dugtrio: Gliscor if you can switch out.
Medicham: Return
Granbull: Chansey if it has Intimidate
Marowak: Gliscor
Jynx: Bring Chansey in to stall it out of attacks and then let Kangaskhan set up with PuP
Breloom: PuP turn 1, then Earthquake until you know it has Poison Heal and not Effect Spore
Whiscash: Switch to Gliscor and PP stall until Kangaskhan can set up to +6.
Hariyama: PuP turn 1. Brick Break before Belly Drum is weak.
Absol: Switch to Chansey and try to get a Sub up. If you can't because of confusion, switch Gliscor in when Chansey is in KO range of Punishment and stall out the remaining attacks.
Raichu: Switch to Gliscor and use Toxic at first. Once it's poisoned, waste some turns with Chansey and switch to Gliscor 2 turns before it faints so you can get a Sub up without worrying about Encore
Sawk: Switch to Gliscor. If it used Close Combat, Protect and then EQ. If it used Taunt, switch to Chansey and switch back to Gliscor.
Unfezant: Gliscor
Vileplume: Chansey
Victreebel: Chansey
Noivern: Chansey
Chesnaught: Gliscor
Shiftry: Switch to Gliscor and Toxic it. Switch back to Kanga on the turn it gets around 50% health so you can PuP for the KO.
Exploud: Chansey
Froslass: PP stall with Chansey and then PuP
Darmanitan: Gliscor and get off a PuP when it struggles
Armaldo: Gliscor and get off a PuP when it struggles
Cofagrigus: Switch to Chansey and let it get statused, then switch to Gliscor and try to Toxic it. If Toxic hits, set up with Chansey; if it misses, switch back to Chansey and PP stall.
Golurk: Switch to Gliscor and Toxic. Switch Kangaskhan back in on Shadow Punch the turn Golurk goes to 15% health so you can KO it with PuP
Slowbro: PuP the first two turns before Sucker Punching
Trevenant: PuP then Mega and Sucker Punch. If I face a non-Psychic/Hex Maniac trainer leading with this, I'm more likely to switch to Chansey, PP stall, and set up Kanga.
Gourgeist: Pup then Mega and Sucker Punch
Weezing: Switch to Chansey; if you get Toxiced switch to Gliscor and back to Chansey until you can get a Sub up without Toxic. Once Weezing has 3 Stockpiles, it will use Rest after every Seismic Toss. Switch Kanga back in on the Rest, get to +4, and KO with Return.
Cryogonal: PuP turn 1; it will use Hail
Druddigon: Gliscor. You can switch Kanga back in on struggle and set up a PuP if you want.
Musharna: 2 PuPs then Return
Scrafty: Gliscor if Intimidate, otherwise PuP then Return
Ferrothorn: Chansey
Alakazam: Sucker Punch (don't Mega yet) or switch to Chansey.
Altaria: Chansey
Toxicroak: EQ turn 1
Gothitelle: Chansey if you can switch. Don't Minimize until you're 1 Seismic Toss from KOing
Reuniclus: Chansey
Abomasnow: Chansey
Nidoqueen: Gliscor
Rampardos: EQ turn 1
Escavalier: PuP turn 1; if Swagger hits go to Gliscor
Carracosta: Sucker Punch then EQ. This one sucks because Weakness Policy crit Waterfall can KO so you have to play it safe.
Accelgor: PuP then Sucker Punch
Floatzel: Chansey. You don't want to use anything other than Soft-Boiled until you're at 100% because it Protected.
Zebstrika: Gliscor
Drifblim: PP stall with Chansey then get to +6 with Kanga
Poliwrath: PuP turn 1. It usually tries Focus Punch, but if it uses Circle Throw, try to get Gliscor in and stall it out of Waterfall
Rapidash: Chansey
Muk: Gliscor
Gengar: Gliscor then Chansey to PP stall.
Ampharos: Gliscor
Pinsir: Chansey: Try to Sub up if it missed Guillotine. If it used Close Combat, switch to Gliscor. Once either of those 5 PP moves are stalled out, bring Kanga back in and get to +2 on the struggle
Ursaring: Gliscor
Houndoom: It will use Sunny Day 99% of the time so go ahead and PuP
Donphan: Gliscor
Wailord; Ugh, PuP the first turn and hope it doesn't Fissure. Otherwise you're just PP stalling with Gliscor. As is the case against every trainer with the possible exception of Veterans, bring Chansey in on the Struggle to let it get a couple Minimizes and a Sub because it's better than a Gliscor with a Sub
Ninetales: I live dangerously on this one and PuP followed by Sucker Punch. You can also set up on it with Chansey if Flamethrower burns Kangaskhan on turn 1
Machamp: Gliscor
Shuckle: Bring Gliscor in, set up a Sub, and Toxic it. Then switch to Chansey and set up
Honchkrow: Return
Conkeldurr: Gliscor
Excadrill: Bring in Gliscor, let it do 4 rounds of LO damage to itself, then switch back to Kangaskhan and PuP
Krookodile: Gliscor
Steelix: PuP. If it swaggered Kangaskhan, switch to Chansey and PP stall.
Zoroark: Chansey
Mandibuzz: PuP turn 1 and hope it doesn't use Swagger and hit. Otherwise you're in for a lot of PP stalling
Tentacruel: Bring in Chansey. You can try setting up but if you get Toxiced switch to Gliscor on the Venoshock and PP stall Surf. Just another example of playing ultra-conservatively because Mega Kangaskhan's Earthquake isn't a guaranteed KO
Aerodactyl: it's a tough one. PuP followed by Sucker Punch KOs, but Stone Edge crits Kanga down. Against stuff like Scientists I leave Kanga in, but against Roller Skaters (who can possibly have Gyarados) I try switching Chansey in first. If it doesn't hit both Stone Edges and get a crit one of them, Chansey sets up.
Luxray: Switch to Gliscor on Thunder Wave. You can PP stall Ice fang from there, but I prefer to just pivot to Chansey and set it up instead.
Porygon2: Chansey can PP stall. I Seismic Toss twice to leave it alive at 50% health, bring Kanga in on Shadow Ball, and finish it up with PuP
Porygon-Z: Chansey
Yanmega: Chansey
Gardevoir: Chansey
Gallade: Switch to Gliscor, then Chansey, then back to Gliscor. EQ KOs against -2 Defense, and I don't like stalling Psycho Cut.
Starmie: Chansey
Chandelure: Mega and EQ
Jolteon: PuP turn 1 if you know you're facing set 4 because it's gonna Fake Tears.
Leafeon: Switch to Chansey if you know it's set 4. If not, go Mega and Return as you scout the set
Lucario: Gliscor
Mismagius: PuP and then Return. If it uses Perish Song before Mean Look, switch Kanga out
Dusknoir: Chansey first until you know it's not the set 3 with Will-o-Wisp. After that, Gliscor
Tyranitar: Gliscor
Mamoswine: Gliscor and then LO stall until it's in KO range of EQ (7 turns of recoil)
Gliscor: If it's set 4, Chansey. Otherwise boost with Kanga.
Beartic: PuP then Sucker Punch
Walrein: Switch to Chansey and see how long it can stay alive with Substitute. If it's KOed, stall with Gliscor and set up to +6 as base form Kanga
Crobat: This thing's dumb. Switch to Chansey and stay in until you're Taunted or slept. Then switch to Gliscor. You can PP stall it but be prepared to count its Taunt PP and make some unorthodox plays like staying in and using Earthquake while Gliscor is taunted. If it runs out of Taunt before attacks, you can try setting up Chansey or you can stall it out of all attacks and get to +6 with Kanga. Maybe you could just say YOLO and Return on turn 1 if you want to be less thorough.
Gyarados: PuP then return
Kingdra: Chansey
Milotic: If it Cute Charms Kanga after PuP on turn 1, go to Chansey and PP stall.
Blissey: Gliscor
Electivire: Gliscor for the Thunder Punch then switch to Chansey and set up. You could possibly get frozen/paralyzed and take multiple critical hits, but that hasn't happened to me. If it does, you could stall out all the Ice Punches with Gliscor.
Togekiss: Set up with Chansey. Minimize doesn't help against Aura Sphere, but it doesn't do much damage in the first place.
Arcanine: Gliscor
Dragonite: PuP then Sucker Punch. If Dragon Rush crits on the first turn, go to Gliscor.
Salemence; PuP then Sucker Punch if Moxie. If Intimidate, switch to Chansey and try setting up.
Garchomp: Return then Sucker Punch
Slaking: Switch to Gliscor. The next turn it attacks, switch back to Kanga on the Night Slash, PuP, then Sucker Punch.
Articuno: Try to PuP then Return. If you get KOed by the Sheer Cold one, you have to try to stall it with Gliscor.
Zapdos: Chansey. If it's the Double Team/Bright Powder one and it has Pressure instead of Static, you can bring Kangaskhan back in once all of Zapdos' attacking PP are wasted.
Moltres: Chansey
Raikou: Chansey
Suicune: Chansey. Sets 1 and 3 can be PP stalled for Kangaskhan set-up.
Entei: Chansey. Yes, I've even switched Chansey in on a Sacred Fire burn from set 3 and come out on top. You can PP stall set 2 for Kanga
Regice: Chansey. You can bait a Rest from set 2 and PP stall set 3 for Kanga.
Cobalion: Gliscor. If it's set 3 switch back and forth with Chansey so it doesn't Psych up to +2. If it's set 2 bait a Rest for Kangaskhan
Terrakion: Don't mess around with Sub/Protect unless you know it's Scarf locked into Sacred Sword.
Virizion: Gliscor. As mentioned before, switching in on Swords Dance sucks.
Tornadus: Straight to Chansey. Set 2 can be PP stalled and set 3 can be forced to Rest. Set 4 can be a pain but knowing that it prioritizes setting up Rain Dance over using Taunt can help you with stalling it.
Thundurus: Gliscor. Stall it out of Focus Blast if it's Specs and bring Kanga Back in. Set 2 can be forced into Rest.
Latias/Latios: If set 3 is a possibility, Sucker Punch turn 1. Otherwise go to Chansey. PP stall set 1 and let Chansey set up.
Heatran: Chansey
Cresselia: Chansey. If it's the Double Team/Toxic one, go to Gliscor. If it's set 1, PP stall it and bring in Kanga.
Landorus: Gliscor: Bring Kanga back on the Focus Blast one. For whatever reason, set 2 doesn't use Fissure untill all of its Smack Down PP are gone, so that's one more thing you can PP stall for Kanga.
Regigigas: Gliscor
NoCheese if you want to clean up my spot on the leaderboard you can just list my current longest streak, this one, and my longest Durant-Cloyster-Drapion streak (971, BV code D9GG-WWWW-WWX-SF59, http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-maison-discussion-records.3492706/page-142#post-6153647), aka the longest Durant +2 sweepers streak that actually happened. I'll work on ensuring that links to the more specific team team details are accessible from the record posts.
At first I thought the threats list was pretty narrow, but when you think about it, there aren't a lot of things that can often claim to be bad news just by being there. IMO Starmie does not have that kind of presence, certainly not more than Walrein. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve its spot on this topic's very own threat list, but I feel confident in saying that any truly bad experience skilled players have had with Starmie4 is a testament to the inopportune screwings of the King's Rock and not Starmie's coverage or offense. Apart from being faster, I have a hard time seeing it as a bigger threat than some Terrakion sets (obviously a speed threatlist would still tie that name in as well.)
If exceedingly specific things detract from the nature you want to set for the article, perhaps Starmie does not really qualify. To me, once you take away that King's Rock, Starmie is nothing more than your standard "decent offensive moveset with the BST to utilize it" enemy, and a lot of things can claim that fame. Tyrantrum, Walrein, Zapdos and Volcarona package a number of things that can make them problems even for their checks. I will grant that hax is still a big part of what makes them scary, though, so perhaps the unique element of hax Starmie brings warrants a mention. One more entry won't negatively impact the article, and new players might appreciate the heads up without needing to scour a data dump.
For what it's worth, Starmie4 has ridiculously good offensive coverage: it has super-effective coverage against 239 different pokemon, and 4x effective coverage against 25 of those. (For reference, there are some 360 fully-evolved pokemon.) All with base power 90 moves. I would bet there aren't too many sets in the Maison that can boast better than that which aren't choice-locked, much less sets which are running a speed of 183. I bet it would still end more than its fair share of streaks if it had a Life Orb instead of a hax item.
For what it's worth, Starmie4 has ridiculously good offensive coverage: it has super-effective coverage against 239 different pokemon, and 4x effective coverage against 25 of those. (For reference, there are some 360 fully-evolved pokemon.) All with base power 90 moves. I would bet there aren't too many sets in the Maison that can boast better than that which aren't choice-locked, much less sets which are running a speed of 183. I bet it would still end more than its fair share of streaks if it had a Life Orb instead of a hax item.
I'd suggest otherwise if you're talking about a team that needs one of its members to take a hit from Starmie and retaliate. 2 consecutive non-boosted hits thanks to a King's Rock flinch will do more damage than a Life Orb critical hit, and the former scenario happens 60% more often. 2x vs. 1.95x doesn't seem like that much of a difference, but that's before factoring in the King's Rock hits messing with Sash/resist berries and having multiple chances to critical hit or proc secondary effects. Maybe for teams struggling to get to 50 using random natures/EVs/IVs, LO Starmie would be worse because it would be more likely to get guaranteed KOs, but beyond that the King's Rock offers much more streak-ending potential. It's similar to how Walrein4 could surely end some streaks if it had Leftovers or some random berry, but the hax item is what elevates it from "if it hits on the first OHKO move just finish it off with your 2nd Pokemon" to "this thing can and will sweep you if you don't have something with Substitute that can recover its HP."
The main reason against writing about Starmie specifically would be that it's kind of a canary in the coal mine for the Maison. The most reliable ways of dealing with it in the lead spot would classify as general good practice for Singles such as using Entrainment on it and setting up or switching in Chansey and setting up. After that, Kangaskhan and then Greninja are pretty much all you have for what can outspeed and OHKO it without doing something drastic like leading with Jolteon. Any further down the list and you're pretty much at the level of "hope it doesn't flinch Dragonite on turn 1."
It's kind of a chicken/egg thing where most good players don't worry about Starmie at all because being weak to Starmie means that your team's leading off with a Pokemon that's not particularly speedy or bulky and also may be weak to to some relatively common attacking types that can come from a few other speedy leads.
The main reason against writing about Starmie specifically would be that it's kind of a canary in the coal mine for the Maison. The most reliable ways of dealing with it in the lead spot would classify as general good practice for Singles
This is a very good point, and I like your phrasing. But it cuts both ways, too. If making sure your team can beat a Starmie forces you into general Maison "best practices," then in a way, this weighs even more in favor of giving it a specific writeup. I'm still undecided, but appreciate the discussion.
Ok, so I have this conundrum, apologies in advance for any incomprehensible wording.
I haven't been playing much Maison recently, but I have been working on a new singles streak on commutes over the last couple months (lost a couple times to my own stupidity, think I have the team figured out now, but the streak isn't at a postworthy length yet), but anyway, for now the relevant thing is, I'm using an Intimidate lead.
So, I ran into Gastrodon4, and because trying to outboost a Curse user is dumb, I figured I'd PP stall Curse by switch stalling with Intimidate. I thought I'd have to make it waste all ten Curse PP and drop its Attack to -6 and would be able to set up on it afterwards. However, very surprisingly, Gastrodon stopped using Curse altogether after using it six times and only used its final four PP after wasting all its attacking moves -- so, I thought they "stop using a move that boosts multiple stats after any stat has been maxed out."
So when I ran into a lead Gyarados4 at some later point, I figured I'd try the exact same thing -- switch stall with Intimidate until it had boosted to +6 Speed, drop its Attack all the way to -6, and fully set up on lead Greninja's archnemesis. Unfortunately, this one apparently had no qualms setting up Dragon Dances even after its Speed had already been maxed out -- so maybe it was Curse's -6 Speed that was stopping the AI from using it after the first six times?
The obvious non-Speed-lowering equivalent to Curse is Bulk Up, so I played until I ran into a Scrafty4 lead and tried doing the same thing in a mock battle. Unfortunately (?), it behaved exactly the same way as it would have done had it been using Curse -- it only resumed boosting at +6 Defense after running out of its attacking PP. So maybe Dragon Dance was behaving differently because the other stat being boosted was Speed? After all, Unaware also doesn't work on Speed, so maybe it didn't recognise it already had a stat maxed out?
So I whipped out the battle vid of my Greninja loss to test Quiver Dance by having my Heatran spam Confide against Volcarona -- and as it turned out it continued using it to boost its Special Attack even after maxing out its other stats, so Quiver Dance behaved the same way as Dragon Dance. Unfortunately, this ended up voiding the "ignoring Speed" theory after all, because obviously Volcarona was at +6 SpD too -- so even if Speed didn't count, it still had a different maxed-out stat to recognise.
Maybe it had to do specifically with Curse and Bulk Up maxing out Defense? Tested it with Calm Mind, against Cofagrigus4, but after it got to +6 SpD and -6 SpA, it even ended up using Toxic against my Heatran before resuming Calm Mind, which made it pretty glaringly obvious Calm Mind was is the same boat as Curse and Bulk Up. Still, the one thing that separated DD/QD from Curse/BU/CM was the former two "boosting Speed" -- and there was one boosting move I hadn't tried yet and had a battle vid of, which was Work Up. However, while Intimidate stalling Flareon1, it continued using Work Up even after getting to +6 SpA, so Speed had nothing to do with it at all. "Defensive boosts" didn't have anything to do with it either, because then Volcarona would have stopped using QD after getting to +6 SpD.
I'm really not sure what exactly is going on here x__x Afaik the only remaining thing that could separate DD/QD/WU from Curse/BU/CM would be the former three being considered "offensive" boosting moves and the latter three "defensive" boosting moves, with "offensive" boosting moves boosting two offensive stats, but there are no (other?) differences in how the AI uses them (generally, boost until you outspeed or can OHKO), not to mention it would make more sense to want to max out defensive boosts... Any thoughts?
(Additionally, the AI not using Curse/BU/CM anymore after getting either stat to +6 seems to have to do with them not wanting to boost /beyond/ +6 as opposed to just stopping after getting any stat to +6; in another mock battle, I used Swagger to raise Cofagrigus4's Attack to +6, but it still used Calm Mind afterwards. Moreover, while this isn't something I deliberately kept track of, "stopping after getting any stat to +6" would have had Gastrodon4 and Quagsire4 stop using Curse after getting to +6 SpD with Amnesia. Again, I didn't keep track of this properly and don't have battle vids of them, but they did always use six Curses before they stopped using it, and it stands to reason they'd sooner manage to use Amnesia three times than use Curse six times)
15:50 plumberjack turska: idk if you read this last night
15:51 plumberjack but the whole thing "stop using a boosting move that boost multiple stats if any if maxed out" doesn't apply to dragon dance
15:51 plumberjack i just got hold of a scrafty battle vid though
15:51 plumberjack and it does seem to apply to bulk up
15:51 plumberjack as in, scrafty neatly used up all its payback pp before resuming using bulk up at +6 defense
15:52 plumberjack so it's kinda weird, but they don't seem to recognise speed here
15:52 plumberjack could be similar to unaware not ignoring speed boosts, idk
15:53 turska wonder if it'd apply to quiver dance?
15:53 plumberjack it would make sense not to, if it doesn't apply to dragon dance
15:53 plumberjack it's a bit harder to test though haha
15:54 turska heatran with confide and flash fire, maybe
15:54 plumberjack yeah, that would work
15:55 plumberjack i'll see if i have a volc battle vid lying around (as in lead volc, otherwise i'll use my greninja loss =__=) and test after finishing this battle
16:01 plumberjack 375, wooo
16:01 plumberjack testing time
16:06 plumberjack +0SpA, 1 QD
16:06 plumberjack +0SpA, 2 QD
16:06 plumberjack +0SpA, 3QD
16:06 plumberjack +0SpA, 4 QD
16:06 plumberjack +0SpA, 5QD
16:07 plumberjack +0SpA, 6 QD
16:07 plumberjack ...and it continues boosting
16:07 plumberjack nice
16:10 plumberjack wait, hang on
16:11 plumberjack it would recognise that special defense is fully boosted
16:11 plumberjack so it can't have anything to do with it ignoring speed being maxed out =___=
16:11 plumberjack back to square one sigh
16:11 turska how about calm mind? maybe defense is the only stat that behaves like this
16:12 plumberjack hrmm
16:12 plumberjack i reckon i have a musharna battle vid somewhere
16:17 plumberjack ...or maybe i don't
16:18 plumberjack oh well, gives me something to be on the lookout for
16:18 plumberjack wait, i'm an idiot
16:18 plumberjack cofagrigus will work just as well
16:25 plumberjack -1 SpA, 0 CM
16:25 plumberjack -1 SpA, 1 CM
16:25 plumberjack -1 SpA, 2 CM
16:26 plumberjack -2 SpA, 2 CM
16:26 plumberjack -2 SpA, 3 CM
16:26 plumberjack -2 SpA, 4 CM
16:26 plumberjack -2 SpA, 5 CM
16:26 plumberjack -3 SpA, 5 CM
16:26 plumberjack -3 SpA, 6 CM
16:27 plumberjack -4 SpA, 6 CM
16:27 plumberjack -5 SpA, 6 CM
16:27 plumberjack -6 SpA, 6 CM
16:27 plumberjack ok it just used toxic
16:28 plumberjack before resuming calm mind
16:28 plumberjack toxic on my heatran
16:28 plumberjack so it would seem that they don't stop boosting if speed is involved
16:28 plumberjack regardless of which other stats are boosted
16:29 turska there's still cosmic power, but nothing in the maison uses that
16:29 turska aside from a claydol somewhere that never appears
16:29 turska outside bunny
16:29 plumberjack yeah, and stockpile won't work here
16:29 plumberjack hrmmm, you can't do mock battles against your own team, can you?
16:30 plumberjack i think i have an ancient battle vid on my x where i used cosmic power flame orb psycho shift sigilyph lol
16:30 plumberjack in a wifi battle
16:36 turska technically, also coil which eelektross2 uses
16:36 turska and work up, on umbreon/flareon
16:36 turska and hydreigon2
16:37 plumberjack hmmm i may have a video with that umbreon or flareon
16:40 plumberjack yay, i still have a flareon1 battle vid
16:40 plumberjack kept it because it was 63 turns because i had to pp stall umbreon4 =__=
16:41 turska aromatisse4 used aromatic mist on blissey4
16:41 plumberjack sounds like overkill
16:41 plumberjack if i even properly remember what aromatic mist does x_x
16:43 plumberjack -1 Atk, 0 WO
16:43 plumberjack 0 Atk, 1 WO
16:43 plumberjack hmmm, probably should pp stall fire blast first x_x
16:44 turska heatran with protect for dig + confide
16:44 plumberjack oh, my current team should work fine too for this one, fortunately
16:45 plumberjack +1 Atk, 2 WU
16:45 plumberjack +2 Atk, 3 WU
16:45 plumberjack +2 Atk, 4 WU
16:45 plumberjack +3 Atk, 5 WU
16:46 plumberjack +2 Atk, 5 WU
16:46 plumberjack +3 Atk, 6 WU
16:46 plumberjack +2 Atk, 6 WU
16:47 plumberjack and it just used work up
16:47 plumberjack while it could very well have used fail
16:47 plumberjack *flail
16:47 plumberjack lol
16:47 plumberjack so it has to do with defensive boosts
16:48 plumberjack /any/ defensive boosts as opposed to just defense
16:49 plumberjack no, it doesn't, see: QD
16:49 plumberjack i don't get it
16:50 turska so it stopped boosting for bulk up, calm mind, and curse, and did not stop boosting for QD, DD, and work up
16:50 plumberjack yep
16:50 plumberjack and there doesn't seem to be anything specific that separates those two groups
16:51 plumberjack i could just post this in the thread of course :o maybe someone else can figure something out
16:59 turska could see bulk up/cm/curse being treated as different stat boosting moves from "offensive" boosting moves like QD/DD/WU by the AI, but if it does it certainly doesn't show in its usage of the moves
17:01 plumberjack yeah, i could see DD/WO being considered "offensive" boosting moves too, but it doesn't make that much sense to group QD with those as opposed to BU/CM...
17:02 plumberjack and yeah, they use both in exactly the same way (boost to outrun/OHKO, then attack)
17:04 turska then there's shift gear - if the AI stopped using that when it was at +3 attack, that'd be strange
17:04 plumberjack agreed
17:05 turska the maison does actually run shift gear, on klinklang3
17:05 turska can't say I ever saw it
17:05 turska or if I did, it didn't get boosting too memorably
17:05 plumberjack even if it didn't run shift gear, the code would somehow have to account for it for wifi mock battles or just conclusiveness's sake if anything
17:06 plumberjack so shift gear is valid
17:06 turska yeah, definitely
17:06 plumberjack but it doesn't explain work up
18:01 plumberjack also, re. boosting moves
18:01 plumberjack maybe it considers "offensive" boosting moves to be the ones that boost /multiple/ offensive stats?
18:02 plumberjack that would account for the difference...
18:02 plumberjack still doesn't explain why it would be so adamant to max out offensive boosts as opposed to defensive ones (the latter makes way more sense), but whatever
18:08 plumberjack actually, i'm also tempted to go spam swagger against cofagrigus in that battle vid and see if it will stop using calm mind after i get its attack to +6 heh
18:10 plumberjack and see what happens if i get an iron defense or amnesia user to +6 with swagger :o would stand to reason to consider those "defensive" boosting moves, which they accordingly should stop using when a stat has been maxed out
18:11 turska that's an interesting idea
18:12 turska better not kill them with swagger, though
18:12 plumberjack and of course iron defense and amnesia are used either on non-set4 mons or in tandem with a different boosting move
18:12 plumberjack grrrr
18:13 plumberjack best bet would be regice3 using a ground-type
18:13 plumberjack and haha yeah, that's also a problem x__x
18:14 turska regice3 has amnesia without extras
18:14 plumberjack charge beam
18:15 plumberjack can work, but mandates a ground-type
18:15 plumberjack wait, i know
18:16 plumberjack gastrodon or quagsire have both amnesia and curse
18:16 plumberjack so if i can get them to max out their defense before their special defense
18:16 plumberjack that should do the same thing :o
18:16 turska encore?
18:16 plumberjack might require metal sound / acid spray
18:16 plumberjack or yeah, encore!
18:16 plumberjack i should have a battle vid of either, but gotta have dinner first haha
18:50 plumberjack however
18:50 plumberjack if the experiment is "see if they stop using amnesia if they max out curse first"
18:51 plumberjack the reverse should also be true of course =__=
18:51 plumberjack and it stand to reason they'd use three amnesias way before six curses
18:51 plumberjack i haven't kept track of their amnesias properly, but i'm positive gastro and quag always used six curses before stopping using them
18:52 plumberjack so that would indicate it's not really "stop using this move if any stat is at +6" as much as "don't try to boost one of these stats /beyond/ +6"
18:53 plumberjack which doesn't invalidate the distinction between curse e.a. and dragon dance e.a. in the slightest but does take amnesia etc. out of the equation
18:53 plumberjack sigh
18:53 plumberjack anyways, will try swaggering cofag first and see how that works out
18:58 plumberjack ok, cofagrigus at +6 attack just used calm mind
18:59 plumberjack so it definitely has to do with "not boosting beyond +6" as opposed to "not boosting if +6 elsewhere"
18:59 plumberjack and an amnesia experiment seems unnecessary
19:03 plumberjack (and as it turns out i don't seem to have a quag or gastro battle vid haha whoops)
19:03 plumberjack but i just remembered something else, too
19:04 plumberjack with greninja/scizor/gliscor, if gyarados4 came out against gliscor, i'd pp stall waterfall while letting it set up to +6 and then switch stall earthquake to have scizor set up on it
19:04 plumberjack however, when i tried doing the same thing with swampert, it'd randomly use earthquake on gliscor after getting rid of waterfall
19:05 plumberjack maybe that's the same distinction showing up? :o would at least be reassuring to know that i can safely pull that stunt on gyarados if i ever end up using that team again x__x
21:13 turska maybe vaporeonice might know something, after all his play against the curse crew would be growling possibly a zillion times (presumably) and it'd be hard to miss
21:52 plumberjack yeah, i'm working on a post now (can i include this log btw?)
21:55 turska sure
I'm glad you tested this! As turskain mentioned, I did indeed use Growl about a zillion times, and noticed the exact same thing: they stop boosting after six Curses, but continue boosting after six Dragon Dances. I didn't notice the tendency with Bulk Up, because I preferred to just wipe those guys off the map quickly.
The AI's understanding of the whole "six Speed boosts is the maximum you can get" seems tenuous, at best. I have seen Blaziken4 continue to Flame Charge against a (faster) Mega Salamence while at +6. My sense was that the AI seems to use Flame Charge LESS frequently while at +6, but that may have just been confirmation bias, as they will still sometimes use Flare Blitz while slower than Mega Mence. So perhaps some of the continuing to boost has to do with the fact that the AI "doesn't realize" Speed is maxed, and therefore wants more of it. So while they don't understand that they can get more Special Attack, they DO think they can get more Speed, making the use of Quiver Dance worthwhile. That doesn't explain Work Up, though, and I don't believe a Dragon Dancer will keep using the move while at +6 in both Atk and Speed in an attempt to get more Speed (though I've never sat around against a Pokemon with +6 in both stats trying to find out!).
One cool thing to try would be using a Pokemon with Tickle against a Curse user to see if they keep boosting after six Curses. If they do, that suggests that a maxed Defensive stat sends an "inhibitory signal" while a maxed offensive stat does not (assuming at least one offensive stat isn't maxed), with Quiver Dance leading to more boosting because the multiple "boost" signals (e.g. "I can get more Speed AND more Special Attack") overwhelm the one inhibitory signal. If they DON'T keep boosting, that suggests that the AI differentiats between "offensive boosting moves" and "defensive boosting moves," like you mentioned. You could also compare the Tickle results to a trial where you use Leer against a Curse user.
Another good test would be a Charm user against a Swords Dancer. I believe the AI will keep boosting Attack after three Swords Dances, but I tried to KO Swords Dancers very quickly, so I'm not sure. It's worth mentioning that the AI's use of Swords Dance was extremely erratic (they didn't use it NEARLY as often as they should have against Chansey), so that might be a tough test to judge (because sometimes the AI wouldn't use it for several turns after boosting once and losing the boost to King's Shield), but it's certainly worth trying.
After running two mock battles (small sample size, I know), Tickle does not seem to remove the "stop at 6 Curses" behavior: Steelix1 used Curse 6 times, then proceeded to throw Earthquakes at a physically defensive Tangrowth despite 5+ Tickles putting its attack and Defense well below +6, only resuming Curse once it was out of Earthquakes.
Don't currently have battle videos with Bulk Up or Work Up users. Sorry.
Hello to all, I know I don't have much in the way of posts here but since pokemon black the subway/maison has been all I care about to the point that I don't even bother catching legends now if I can't use them in the maison (id happily trade a shiny rayquazza for poison heal gliscor or 5iv Suicune lol!) and iv been very much a voyeur here taking in everyone's experiences and advice with the Maison, I don't yet have a worthy streak to report (still a bit of a maverick when it comes to doing damage calcs!) but at last I got past the destroyer of dreams that is rotation battles and got all five trophys in the maison!
(note to self put photo here)
I gained all five trophy's with the same team of 6 pokemon..to start it wasn't by intention but once I got the first 2 trophy's I thought maybe it'd be interesting to get the achievement with the same team (a decision I kicked myself for on a couple of occasions!) but glad it happened and I think they can carry on in doubles and triples but singles and rotation the journey ends at 50 for some of them! I'll introduce the six mon and talk synergy and what they do for each other then i'll break each run down to tell what pokemon got the call up for each trophy!
First the pokemon (if I can work out how to do the cool sprite thing i'll edit them in, sry for the text bulk!)
All are 5iv and bred by myself (Maro and Gyara RNG'd and brought over from black)
Marowak @Thick club
Ability: Lightning rod
Nature: Adamant
Ev's: 252Hp 252Atk 4Spd
-Earthquake
-Rock slide
-Fire punch
-Protect
skip this part if u don't care! but the team origins start from pokemon red where I got ripped off for $500 for a magikarp, managed to find some solace in lavender town and felt bad for the Cubone that had lost its mother blah blah, my favourite pokemon were born! They followed me through the generations and as it happened I found that in doubles they had a good synergy together. Marowak is a less glorified Aron, supporting Gyara who doesn't like electric moves (lightning rod) or rock moves (Maro OHKO's almost every rock type with a thick club in his hand) other then that he acts as bait with protect while Gyara DD's and sweeps. Their only shared weakness is grass and both being physical attackers, so I ended up back in the pokemon graveyard (don't get me started on the radio tower in heart gold!!) for the Ghost/poison Gastly, who could also levitate allowing Marowak to continue to freely use earthquake when he needs to! It didn't really work in the subway (prob my own fault) but once gen 6 gave us fairy's weak to poison and steel no longer resisting ghost, Gengar's dual stab became really viable and behind a sub is the bane of the maison Ai! I'll leave it there for now and go through the rest of the team in each format with their specifics.
First trophy I went for is my favourite format and the format I like to tackle with Maro/Gyara/Gengar (don't worry they will take a back step later as I get serious in the maison!)
For doubles I needed another poke, whilst waiting for some lucario to breed (they really don't like each other!!) I read that Mega Kanga is a good Gengar partner and with his maison reputation behind him I threw him in and haven't looked back! Maro and Gyara were my front two in the subway and they done well but intimidate hurt them both and status was an issue, so I put Kanga and Gengar on the front line so intimidate and status only hurts one of the pair. Kanga has fake out so Gengar can get a sub up and have half a chance of keeping it. Now is the point where I should address the "elephant in the room" which is drain punch over PuP! I know some people are thinking 'fake out over EQ is one thing, Crunch over Sucker punch is another but drain punch?!' ..raw power isn't an team wide issue that I got, Gyara has DD, but bulk is more of an issue so the longer I keep Kanga alive the better and whilst I appreciate that I lose the set up and sweep, facing the second wave of pokemon with Kanga in full health is good...my reasoning being that there's no point having a +2 Kanga that can get done with a priority move and since I don't run Sucker punch (I can't afford to give the Ai a free set up, esp evasion, on me will be a running theme through this post!) being able to take another hit is more useful. Will-O-Wisp is a risky move for the maison but if done behind a sub then all is not lost if it does miss. If there is anything left after Kanga and Gengar have punched holes into the Ai then Gyara comes in to DD and finish where they left off. As mentioned Marowak supports him drawing away electric attacks and being able to KO rock/electric and steel types (who carry electric moves) pokemon like Terrakion/Scizor/TTar/Bisharp/Infernape/Raikou/ferrothorn/rhyperior/manectric/Zapdos are a nasty threatlist but Marowak dispatches them with relative ease and keeps them out of Gyaras way who sweeps most other poke. (whilst on Marowak..and Gyara, his stats are a bit wrong to what I wanted, I brought over full HP but will rebreed and give Hp118 Atk 252 Spd 140 to outspeed uninvested base 70 and Gyara will have 148 speed to outspeed latias/latios/thunderous and tornados after 1 DD ...it's what I thought I'd brought over but instead brought over bulkier variants of my poke but ongoing streaks im gonna go with more speed) Gyara can also switch in straight away if I think Kanga is under threat from fighting moves. (on a side tactical note Wow from Gengar + one of Gyaras intimidates can nullify a poke to uselessness allowing me to double team its partners) this must be boring people now so I'll move through the other formats.
i'f ur still with me then ur doing well and i'll be a bit briefer for the rest! I wanted a fairy type and priority and bulk and strength = Azumarill. I dex nav'd 70 Azumarills on route 120 then went on to breed for an eternity until I finally got a 5iv Azumarill so yes I was gonna use him! Hydregion has great Def synergy with Azu and has loads of coverage with his moves, he's just a bit slow (choice scarf makes him 6th or 7th fastest thing in the whole Maison!)
My front line is Gyara/Maro/Gengar, Marowak acts again a bit like Aron in drawing special attacks that aren't dark/psy or ghost, they all head Gengar's way, he can EQ the whole field and let Gyara DD and Gengar set up a sub. Sucker punches aimed at Gengar are great coz he'll quite happily take 3 turns setting up a sub and WoW anyone in sight and Gyara gets the afformentioned protection from Marowak. Arguably my 3 strongest pokes are in reserve which is nice to be able to come in with a position of strength. If the battles not going well Azu can come in to take hits and knock off troublesome items (Ass Vest over wide lens because I want him to take hits and I use knock off more then play rough, his role is to swing momentum back around in my favour when things aren't going well so the extra bulk helps with this!) Kanga will often be brought into the centre where fakeout support can hold back any troublesome poke or finish off weakned pokes and Hydra can go cross field with his 2 pulse moves. This team (as will the doubles) carry on the run to see how far I can get them as they complement each other quite well, the only change I could make would be to swap Gengar out for Talonflame tailwind support so Gyara after 1DD (and with the 148Spd investment) would be the fastest thing on the field that isn't choice locked and Maro could go from support role to more offensive role.
It was this point that I decided to try for the other 3 trophy's with the 6 Pokes that had got me this far, Singles was next, I won't go too much detail as I ran with Kanga in the lead to punch as far through the other team as he could then used the defensive synergy between Hydregion and Azumarill to do the rest. I think we all agree though that with no sub, no set up sweeper and no way of stopping status I was lucky to get this far and a change of tact will be needed if I want to put a decent run together!
I went with the obvious choice of Steven and from my 6 I went with the defensive synergy of Hydregion and Azumarill, which with Stevens Mega-Metagross gave us a bit of a dragon/steel/fairy core..even if I wasn't in control of one element it meant that I could make a switch knowing that the dragon pulse, ice beam or megahorn that forced me to switch out Hydra wouldn't just go and take out Mega-Meta! ..also the offensive coverage is much better from those two then any of my other feasable combos. It seems to be a format that people struggle with but we got there on second attempt so i'll carry on the run and see if they can get themselves onto the leaderboard with a decent streak.
Lastly was the bane that was rotation battles! And the only time I felt wanting in my team choice. I mixed it round a couple of times but the successfull run was made by Kanga/Gengar/Hydregion and Azumarill in reserve. I just couldn't predict when and why the Ai would rotate and if it was for def or atk reasons but it seems I'm not the only one so I won't take it tooo bad, In the end it was NoCheese advice on his Maison article of don't try and catch a poke with a super effective hit but go hard with a big stab move that can hit any of them..so thats what I did! The last ten battles I was really made to work for, I had 5 veterans I think it was and battle 47 put me up against Zapdos2 and Tornadus2 both using evasion moves! Which u will see below rates highly on my threat list!.
This will be the end of the road for these pokes in rotations, I will continue the run but will go for a trick room / sandstorm team where ReptoAbysmal has helped to let me know what I can expect from Clawitzer in a trick room team but basically if I control the environment in rotations then I control the battle more(in theory!), in a way rotation should be ideal for TR as u don't lose turns switching between ur setter and ur sweepers...i'll let u know how that works out for me!
As far as a threat list goes, I obvs haven't gone through a thousand battles in a single format to have anything definitive. I don't like evasion..the reason for originally trying to breed Lucario (they're still going through some really messy divorce settlement!!) was that I wanted Aura sphere to be central to my team and give me something against evasion hopefulls!
Thundurus 2 and 4 scare me a bit as one doubles run ended after he focus blasted Kanga then as I thought he'd go for Gyara with an electric move he Focus blasted Maro for another ko and thundurus2 (I think!) has discharge as well, which doesn't care about lightning rod.
Set up sweepers, my only answer to them is to hit them really hard before they get a chance to do any damage since I don't run taunt on any of my pokes. Physical ones I don't mind so much as I can WoW and/or intimidate them down and the Ai will generally keep using its setup move to compensate for its atk loss by which time it's been Ko'd. Surprisingly though Carracosta 1 worries me a bit more then Volcarana does but I think that's due to me not having a massive fire/bug weakness so he needs a couple of quiver dances to do me damage and if iv been stupid enough to let him set up that much then I'd deserve to be swept!
Trick room is a non-issue as I have loads of Dark/ghost moves to take out the setters and if it does come up then hydra gets pulled out and Azu and/or Marowak just match the low speeds and wipe them out (again another reason why knock off really works on Azu)
I'll end now with some replays so u get an idea how the team works over a couple of formats, if ur still with me then thanks! Any question, observations, critisism, improvements etc please throw my way..im always open to a different point of view!
FYHW-WWWW-WW2K-7M5E
Just my double NO:50 battle
YBRW-WWWW-WW2K-7LTN
ZPXG-WWWW-WW2K-7NTG
A couple of triple battles where the front three take out veterans so you can see that I can hold back my big hitters in Kanga and Hydra to sweep and use them with caution rather then have them statusd on turn 1 then I have to find a way to claw back momentum
CHRG-WWWW-WW2K-7MF3
Rotation: me being rubbish..literally don't know how I won!
(it was after this battle I then got another veteran with Zapdos2 and Thundurus2! Forgot to save though! >.<)
YJSW-WWWW-WW2K-7MHR
rotation: me not being so rubbish!
Thanks again for reading...now to extend some of the streaks to worthiness!
