Gen 3 ADV Viability Ranking (OU)

To be honest I'd use Ludicolo only in a defensive role. If I want to use an offensive water type that can wreck offense I'd much rather use Kingdra instead of Ludicolo. Not to say of course that Ludicolo is strictly outlassed by Kingdra, both have almost the same special attack and so the main difference would probably be the resistances that they bring to the team. Kingdra is definately a B mon because it stuggles against bulkier teams,like I said not too sure about Ludicolo because I haven't used it too much. Maybe B- is right for it?
I disagree, offensive Ludi is fine. Whereas Kingdra struggles against non-Swampert Waters Ludicolo steamrolls through them with its STAB HP Grass, bar Gyarados of course. Triangles even ran Miracle Seed for the extra push.
Kingdra could be B rank.
There is no way Ludicolo is better than D rank (maybe C rank bur Idk)
You're underrating Ludi a lot MD. I've been watching GS and Smurf run him for a few months and he's awesome, I remember DarkLoic and Dekzeh both used him against each other in SPL and Loic's won the game. His defensive and offensive sets are both very potent and I don't think I can emphasize enough how great getting rid of sand is. No one's suggesting that it's a world beater but I think B- is perfectly fine. I agree Kingdra is at least a B, B+ perhaps.
 

Eden's Embrace

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If Kingdra is B then by extension Ludicolo also comes out to somewhere around B right? I mean it doesn't exactly plough through bulkier teams. The HP:grass thing is a point in its favor I admit, and the defensive Rain Dish set is a pain. I think I saw an SPL replay in which Leech Seed/Protect/Rain Dance Rain Dish Ludi was put to good use, checking Suicune+Metagross and a few other mons.
 

McMeghan

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Hi everyone!

I've been wanting to update this thread since SPL is over, but thanks to a mix of laziness and drama dealing, I haven't been able to.

There have been a lot of discussion about Ludicolo and Kingdra here. I think ADV is pretty offensive right now; good offenses meet a lot of success and they're often prefered over defensively inclined balanced teams (think Skarm/Pert/Bliss kind of teams). In such a metagame, Swift Swimmers have a lot of potential to clean games or just wreck a lot of havoc early on, and I fully agree on every positive posts that's been made around Ludicolo and Kingdra. Smurf's RMT is a great example of a well crafted offense with a Swift Swimmer to clean the game. Ludicolo has seen some usage in SPL as a Sweeper as well (dekzeh, Alf, Triangles and Danilo used it). Smurf has been using it a lot as an utility check recently, and from what I've seen, it's been doing a fine job at what's expected from it.

I honestly think Ludicolo is a better Pokemon overall than Kingdra. Not only does it have a cool utility set, but the Grass stab is actually really good on a Swift Swimmer since these Pokemons really struggle to get past bulky Waters not named Swampert. They have approximately the same raw power, and while Kingdra's typing allows it to set-up a Rain Dance on more Pokemons (lack of Flying and Bug weakness help), I think the SpDef bulk, Grass type and diversity make Ludicolo the overall better Pokemon out of the two.

Talking about Swift Swimmer, you're all forgetting Omastar! I theorymoned a lot about it during SPL but ended up not using it (Sam did tho!). It sure has more defensive flaws that Kingdra and Ludicolo, which means it's harder to set up. On the other hand, it's natural defensive bulk and Rock typing allows it pull a Rain Dance vs a lot of Choice Banders late game (typically Aerodactyl not locked on Earthquake). Omastar really shines when it comes to raw fire power tho. Give it Mystic Water as an item and you'll see what I'm talking about:

Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 144/164 Snorlax in Rain: 258-304 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Zapdos in Rain: 355-418 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Metagross in Rain: 355-418 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/252+ Skarmory in Rain: 293-345 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Swampert in Rain: 355-418 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Jirachi in Rain: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Raikou in Rain: 324-382 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0/0 Porygon2 in Rain: 340-400 (90.9 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Regarding Starmie, I totally approve everything that's been said about its Offensive set. It's a beast and the coverage coupled with its speed is just too good in this metagame where Blissey is rarer than ever. As a matter of personal preference, I like Recover better than Rapid Spin and Psychic.

After this SPL, I'd like to bring up how much Zapdos is a total beast. Such a strong electric stab coming from a Pokemon that isn't Dugtrio weak and who has so many occasions to come on the field is a godsend. If it wasn't so one-dimensionnal in its offensive process, it'd be a no-brainer to put it in S imo. I've mentionned it in the Sets Dump, but I love it even more than before since I started using Thunder Wave in offense to completely disallow set-ups. Zapdos has such an easy time fitting into all kind of teams and pull its weight on every battles. Amazing Pokemon. The fact that it's been the third most used Pokemon in SPL is certainly not a coincidence.

Anyway, after reading the thread and pondering my personnal thoughts, here we go:

S-rank
  • Left untouched. Tyranitar is still the unquestionable king of ADV, Gengar the centerpiece of the spikes game, Celebi the master of diversity with many game changing/winning options and Suicune the offensive water of choice, on top of the defensive behemoth it can be.
A-Rank
  • Starmie comes back to the A-Rank, mostly thanks to its Offensive set. I even went as far as pushing it above Flygon, who's been having a tough time lately (its win rate in SPL [38%] is a testament to my claim).
B-Rank
  • Kingdra and Ludicolo join the B-Rank for all the reasons explained in the thread and above in this post.
  • I ordered the Pokemons differently based on their current utility. Magneton is now the king of B-Rank. Trapping Skarmory is that good in ADV, and its typing is amazing to play around Choice Banders and checking Gengar. Milotic is having a rough time, most players don't like relying on a bulky Water that doesn't have Rock resist, has its Leftovers nullified by sandstorm and top it off, take spikes damages. I decided to put it behind Claydol.
  • When I think about it, I'd say Regice has a bigger niche than Gyarados thanks to its defensive value and the powerful Ice stab it carries with it. I decided to put it above Gyarados to reflect that.
C-Rank
  • Lunatone has been moved up. It arguably has a better niche than a lot of Pokemons in the C-Rank. I decided to put it between Slaking and Rhydon.
  • Omastar has been introduced, behind Charizard.
D-Rank
  • This rank (as well as C come to think of it) could probably see a lot of changes, but I have no strong opinions on anything laying around there. Feel free to share yours tho.

And that's it! Here are some stuff I'd like to know your opinions about:
  • Zapdos > Snorlax in A-Rank. I think Snorlax's only really useful as an offensive glue nowadays. The defensive Curse set, while still being a top-notch win condition, really has troubles pulling games off in such an offensive metagame (and thus, most people use SelfD alongside Curse nowadays). Zapdos is just an all-around behemoth.
  • Skarmory > Metagross in A-Rank. Not really sure about that one, but Spikes is so important in ADV, and Skarmory is THE premier spikes user of the tier. No wonder why 252+ Careful is the norm nowadays, just to get 2 layers vs Magneton (and helps a lot to spikes/phaze vs MixMeta, Waters, etc).
  • Dugtrio > Swampert in A-Rank. While Swampert is the most used bulky Water of the tier, Dugtrio is such a defining Pokemon in this generation that I'm inclined to move it ahead of Pert. Especially since Swampert is so common that a lot of offensive strategies revolve around luring it to sweep later nonetheless.
  • No really sure about the lower part of the A-Rank order (thinking mainly about Heracross, Jirachi and Blissey there).
  • Raikou possibly going to B? It's one of the best cleaner and has some cool utility sets, but it kinda struggles versus a lot of common strategies/Pokemons, even late-game (Dug/Aero/Ttar mainly).
  • Magneton going to A. Not only does it play a key-role in the whole Spikes game thing, but the typing is so useful that Magneton is rarely a liability outside of trapping Skarm and possibly Forretress. It also has access to Thunder-Wave to prevent set-ups, which is a great tool at its disposal.
  • Any kind of opinions about niche Pokemons (why they should rise or drop).
 
I agree with most of the stuff you were talking about in your opinions section. I've always considered zapdos to be the 5th best in ou, the offensive sets provide a lot of tempo with baton pass, as well as the threat of status and its insanely powerful tbolts. At the same time, the defensive sets still aren't bad, the number of things that don't take much from its attacks, and have the ability to force it out with their own attacks is pretty small making it a pretty sturdy and also very annoying pokemon. The defensive set isn't as good with the more offensive meta, but the improvements to its offensive sets more than make up for this. I strongly agree with moving dugtrio up, I'd move it past aero personally. The ability to get rid of offensive threats such as tyranitar, heracross and offensive celebi without slowing down your team with something like swampert is such a great thing to have on an offensive team. I've also used it on more defensive teams with lots of success. It clears the way for pokemon like willowisp gengar to rip teams apart. I also agree about raikou. It just provides so little defensive synergy to a team. Im not entirely sure about moving mag up to A but it's not something I'm opposed to either. It's not as one dimensional as it's always made out to be.
 
I'd like to say that while the defensive Curse set is generally overlooked, it's still incredibly strong and bulky and your team will usually have only one way of breaking through (roar from like pert maybe but that's not really a hard stop). After a defense boost, Aero Ttar teams (and these teams can deal w/ lax relatively well too) need to play carefully around it as it can spread paras and deal a lot of damage to aeros that might want to chip it. Zapdos is probably a more meta-defining Poke probably though, its defensive set is incredibly annoying to face and racks up spikes damage while offensive sets can do good damage w/ tbolt.


I'm not sure how i feel about Dugtrio going above Pert. Sure, having a revenge killer with as much utility and trapping ability as Dugtrio is incredible, but Swampert is the most overprepared-for mon in the tier for a reason (HPGross, MixTar, MixMence, random HP grasses literally everywhere). It's a great glue with the ability to check a plethora of pokemon. I could see it going up but the utility of having a pert is just so nice that I feel that it should stay this way.
 
Zap over Lax: Yes, I actually think that it would be justifiable both to move Lax down further and Zap up to S even. Lax's role these days is stopping Special Attackers and CMSpam from beating you in the first 5 turns plus Curse+Booming on an unsuspecting Skarm. Zap on the other hand can do so much offensively and defensively I swear: ResTalk is as good as ever, Baton Passes, sweeps with Agility, can status stuff and Roar, and truck with Thunderbolt. Its only reall solid checks are Wish Jirachi and Jolteon: Grounds hate Toxic and Hidden Powers, Cele can't stop HP Ice or DPeck variants (rare but I've used and like them), TTar takes a large chunk from TBolt and hates Toxic as well: Offensively this thin is not one dimensional, though most of the time it is reliant on Thunderbolt it can do so much more in a game.

Skarm over Meta: Eh, idk, Spikes are huge but Meta is so solid offensively and defensively and brings so much to the table (a lure, heavy hitter, late game cleaner, rock resist, Gar check, I can go on). Skarm itself is becoming more vulnerable as the meta is getting more Physically offensive, it gets Spikes up but in most games it will do just that. Both are really solid though and don't want to pass any judgement.

Dug over Pert, Mag to A I also agree with, will add reasoning later.
 

M Dragon

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In my opinion:

S-rank
(These Pokemon define the metagame the most. They have many equally good movesets and/or are unique in their role.)

I like McM list for S-rank, with the exception of Suicune, which I believe it should be higher than Celebi.
  • Tyranitar => Completely dominates the tier. Sand negating leftovers of a ton of mons (or hurting them) is a huge handicap for many of them, and makes monsters like crocune or curselax much less dangerous. It is also the best late game sweeper in the game, one of the best hard hitters, it has 0 safe switchings (it can lure its main switchings with a CB rock slide (milo), hp grass (pert), IB (flygon), HP Bug (claydol and celebi), it can be huge in the spikes war games (pursuit), I dont think anybody doubts that TTar is the king of ADV.
  • Gengar => The most unpredictable mon. It can hit very hard with a very good coverage, it can sleep, it can burn, it can boom vs special walls or surprise them with Focus Punch, it can perish trap, it can get a surprise kill with DBond, and it is the best spin blocker in the game. Being inmune to Spikes is huge. It is fast, it hits hard, and its the most unpredictable mon in ADV.
  • Suicune => Suicune has 2 "main" sets: the offensive set and the defensive set, and they have completely different counters. Defensive set is a monster: it never dies, it has pressure to PP stall (especially useful when PP stalling things like Leech Seed), it can also beat most others CMers with a CM + Roar set. Everybody knows how good defensive Suicune is, although it is true that sand hurts it a lot. However it is the offensive set that made it so good. The offensive set beats the most common defensive Suicune counters, and it has been the biggest change in the adv metagame. Sub blocks Seed Celebi and status, while fast CM roar is the reason why CMbliss alone is not enough to stop CMers.
  • Celebi => The best support mon, and it never dies (except vs heracross and explosions). It can also be a very dangerous sweeper with CM, annoy with Leech Seed, Reflect to help the team, BP... It also has access to Recover, which makes it much harder to kill, together with Natural Cure so status are not a big problem.

A-Rank
(These Pokemon are really good and almost always do their job. They have some flaws that prevent them to be as good as the S-Rank Pokemon.)
This is where I do not really agree with McM list, although ranking these mons is not easy at all. I think the the best solution would be using sub tiers. A+ (game changers), A (mons that shape) and A- (mons that are really good but there is something that puts them a step below the rest of A mons)
A+
(Game Changers.)
  • Salamence => In my opinion Salamence is the best A ranked pokemon. It is the best CBer in the game (it is fast, it hits hard, and it can take hits very well thanks to intimidate), one of the best late game sweeper (DDmence in the late game can be really dangerous, being able to take an IB from bulky waters and being faster than everything after a single DD), and the mixed set is really good at breaking a lot of defensive teams (brick breaks special walls and t-tar, rock slides zapdos, hp grass swampy, fire blasts steels). One of the best leads in the game, and also one of the best lures. It can also be a great tank with wish (one of the best Heracross checks, if not the best) and Toxic can help it beating bulky waters like Milotic. A pokemon that is too low in McM list, and one of the best ADV pokemons.
  • Metagross => Metagross is a monster than is a huge threat for any team. CB hits extremely hard, and a CB explosion can even OHKO special defensive Skarmory (aka most of them). Bulky waters are in theory the best Metagross Check, but Metagross can easily defeat them without exploding, and bulky waters always fear an explosion that allows other mons like Salamence or Tyranitar to take advantage. Metagross could HP grass (in Swampert case) or Toxic them to weaken them, but sometimes it does not even need that. I have defeated Milotics with CB Metagross using only Meteor Mash and getting Attack Rises. Metagross also has very important resistances (like Rock or Flying) and is very bulky, so it can easily switch in and start hitting very hard or taking out some key mon with a powerful explosion. Metagross can also be a huge threat for offensive teams with an Agility set, and it could also be a great Gengar killer, especially if Gengar is defensive, since they will try to burn it, and Psychic can kill them, or Metagross could just Pursuit it.
A
(Mons that shape the metagame but are not as good as the A+ mons. Ordering this is hard so this is subjective)
  • Zapdos => Some people like McM or BKC would argue that Zapdos should be A+ together with Salamence or Metagross (or it being better than them), but I think that Zapdos is a bit worse than them. Zapdos is a really good pokemon, its defensive set is really good at walling most mixed sweepers and a lot of special sweepers, even if they have IB, and Pressure is a great defensive ability, PP stalling EQs and IBs, making it a very good partner of the physical titans (ttar, metagross, mence), as well as being one of the best phazers in the game (as well as being inmune to spikes). The offensive set hits really hard, and it can also Toxic and T-Wave. Zapdos can also BP Agilities and Subs, which can be really good. However I don't feel that Zapdos is a game changer as Salamence and Metagross are, although it can be a great supporter (roar, toxic swampert, t-wave vs offensive threats) and an amazing special hard hitter, it is much more predictable than all the other 6 mons I placed above it and more unidimensional, and it has a bigger number of mons that completely wall any Zapdos set, although it is also true that these mons are usually weak to Spikes, something Zapdos can take advantage of. Zapdos is still a huge threat and a metagame defining mon, so it deserves to be high in the list (I just feel it is being overrated atm).
  • Jirachi =>
    One of the best CMers in the game, with really good resistances, very bulky, hits hard, and has a very good coverage. Serene grance increasing the chance of Fire Punch Burn, Psychic Special Defense drop, T-bolt para chance or Ice Punch freeze chance can also be a huge help. One of the most dangerous special sweepers, and it is inmune to Toxic, so Toxic Blissey can not stop it. The only problem it has is that Dug traps it, although it can take an EQ and kill it after a CM. Wish + CM is a major pain for a lot of teams as well, especially with Reflect and Dug support to kill t-tar. When team building, Jirachi is one of the main threats you must prepare for.
  • Snorlax =>
    Snorlax has always been an amazing mon, like a cmcune that is bulky in the special side and that can boost its attack and its defense but with a worse ability and access to SelfDestruct, which is also a great lure and a Celebi killer. It can also hit Skarm hard with Fire Blast and surprise with Focus Punch and Counter. The reason this monster is not higher is that this metagame is bad for Curselax (sand and a lot pf physical hard hitters), but it is a monster and one of the biggest ADV threats.
  • Dugtrio =>
    The trapper, the reason why a lot of pokemons are not as good as they could have been (Heracross, Raikou, Jirachi, Celebi, etc, even Tyranitar could have been uber without Dugtrio), and the reason why some pokemons are much better than what they would have been without it (special sweepers like Zapdos or Gengar). One of the mons that define ADV the most.
  • Skarmory =>
    The best spiker in the game, and spikes is huge. It can also wall a ton of things, Toxic + Protect gives a hard time to non steel/poison sweepers. A lot of sweepers are much better with Spikes (Aerodactyl, Salamence, Metagross, Tyranitar) because now they can easily 2hko bulky waters and become a greater threat. Skarmory is extremely good, but it has one huge problem: Magneton. If it wasnt because Magneton, Skarmory would have easily been S tier.
  • Swampert =>
    A bulky water that is inmune to sand and resists Rock. It is the "best" check of the main physical attackers, although they sometimes use HP grass to lure it. The fact that HP grass is very common and that its only useful for Swampert means that Swampert is huge in the metagame.
  • Blissey =>
    The best special wall, it beats nearly every special sweeper, and can also be a threat to other teams with a CM sets. This is the main obstacle special sweepers based teams face. Without Blissey, metagame would be very different.

A-
(Mons that are very good, but because some reason (they need more support or theres something that stops them to be truly effective) are a step below the rest of the A mons)

  • Aerodactyl => The best Revenge Killer. The main problem is has is that it sometimes lacks power, so I feel it needs either Sand or Spikes support to be effective, unlike other threats like Salamence, Metagross or Tyranitar. Rock Slide is great yes, but it is also a double-edged weapon: it can get the game winning flinch, but it can also make you lose the game with a miss. Aerodactyl is great, one of the main reasons teams need at least 1 rock resist usually and is the fastest OU mon, and it is still one of the most dangerous ADV threats.
  • Heracross => Heracross is one of the most dangerous ADV threats. It can easily sweep stall teams with a SD set, or sweep offensive teams with Sub Salac (there is no good priority user in ADV), or hit very hard with CB (megahorn is ridiculously strong), but it has a huge problem: Dugtrio, and another problem that limits the potential of non lefties sets: sand.
  • Flygon => Flygon is a great mon because its awesome typing (only him and Clay can resist rock + eq combination), its ability to be a big threat vs CM teams and its ability to wall the non HP ice electrics (most of them because they usually prefer covering Swampert). However, there are many things that can stop it (gengar, waters, skarm...), and it needs some big support to be truly effective, although it could also lure bulky waters and claydols with Toxic, helping other physical sweepers. It is also inmune to both Spikes and Sand, making it a more dangerous threat in a TSS environment. Flygon has a combination of typing, movepool, speed and power (with a CB it can 2HKO milotic, something Salamence can only do with D-E) that makes it a very unique an interesting option with the right support, especially in a TSS team
  • Starmie =>Starmie is the best spinner in the game, being able to OHKO Gengar with Psychic, and can also help checking some powerful physical attackers like Metagross. It is also faster than a +1 DDtar, and Surf hits it hard. However it is the offensive set the one that has made it shine lately, being able to hit hard and fast, being a good cleaner in the late game. The problem this set has is that it needs a lot of support (removing special walls, weakening Zapdos, Celebi, Bulky waters...)
  • Raikou => This is in the same boat than Heracross. This is a huge threat, and can even beat any Blissey with CM + Rest, although that set is very rare, since other options like Sub (prevents status and helps setting up) or Roar (to beat other CMers). The main problem is Dugtrio. Dugtrio is faster, will survive any attack from Raikou and will OHKO it.
  • Jolteon => I would say this thing is probably B tbh, although it is fast, and can BP agilities and subs. It can also be an annoying threat in a Spikes based team with a bulky Roar set, being able to take specil hits p well. It can also escape from Dug, since it is faster.


I will post something about the rest later, although dont expect something like this.
However I will say that Jynx should be higher, as well as Gyarados
 
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I think Snorlax is still better than Zapdos. The boom variants, of which there are a ton, are so reliable at getting something and a half done, and the bulky Curse variants are still solid, almost forgotten in fact when all it takes is a bit of support and it steamrolls shit. This is coming from someone who's been championing Zap as the next coming of Slayer for almost a year now btw, don't think I don't know, fully appreciate and fucking love how much damn damage he dishes out! If it were up to me Lax and Zap would both be S, with big bird being the "worst" of the bunch.

Flygon is amazing and people sleep on him like crazy. I find he's more consistent on a game-to-game basis than Starmie but everyone jerks off to the offensive set now (and not that it's bad, it's very strong, but it certainly is overrated) so I might be alone on this, bad winrate (which truly baffles me) and all.

I tried Omastar and while he is exceedingly powerful, I very rarely found that I needed the extra damage he was dishing out. What I did appreciate more than anything was soaking up Aero's Double-Edges, which my hastily-put-together rain team (that once somehow managed to bust through fucking Vaporeon stall) greatly appreciated, since an EQ not only wouldn't kill but also was a Ludicolo switch. Oma is a nice pkmn,

I agree with Mag as certainly the best of the B dudes, wouldn't mind him in A. My only gripe is how the Endure set needs to be Timid and thus can't even OHKO 48 SDef Dug but overall I like him a lot. I'm not sure about dropping Milotic too far, it is surprisingly annoying to a lot of the offenses being used right now, with proper support it could definitely make up for that lack of a rock resist without much trouble; I think the double status variant is the way to go, surprise sleep really pisses off all the offensive Zaps and Boomlaxes that try to switch into it. Dunking on all the MixMence (and Kingdra!) being used is also fantastic. In any case I think it's better than Claydol, who is okay and all but Christ he has more issues than Dave Mustaine-era Metallica.

Regice is great but I find he gets worn down too easily for my liking and he doesn't quite hit hard enough, both on offensive and defensive sets. Even the max SAtk sets, which are the ones I use the most, get easily Leech stalled by Celebi, which annoys the hell out of me, and Milotic could give a shit about TBolt. I like those sets on paper for the non-Bliss teams that don't run Ice resists (like Superman) since Immunity is the better ability on Snorlax 95% of the time but even against neutral targets Regi just does not hit hard enough with its STAB, which isn't good when it's not switching into too much. The occasional TWave is pretty annoying to Ttar though, I'll give it that, but still, I've most been impressed by its damage output when HP Firing Metagross switchins... the offensive sets get chipped really easily and get trolled by Swampert of all things, I've been running Speed on mine lately just because I got so tired of it. The defensive Ices, aka the ones that heal however terribly, hit a lot less hard than 236 or whatever SAtk with 2 95 BP moves (one if you use SToss, which I think I prefer tbh), one of which is STAB, would appear to. Psych Up sets are begging to get smashed by everything that's supposed to be countered by it. A 252+ SAtk ResTalk set might be more my speed, but eh... I find Gyarados to be better because a lot of teams just get shredded by him with little effort, plus Intimidate is incredible and he gives you a safety net against Heracross. For now, I'd keep Ice below him.

Lunatone is cool, I like Explosion on him for surprise Blissey killing. I don't like running him without Mag or heavy Skarm lures though since otherwise he trolls you to hell and back... which brings me to my next point, no way in hell should Skarm be below Metagross. I know that Meta is among the best of the best when it comes to punching holes, especially since he has a ton of defensive utility etc etc but jfc being weak to Skarm is possibly the 2nd worst thing to be weak to in ADV (besides Tar/Aero) and it still manages to not just hold its own but absolutely dominate. Even specially offensive teams dislike the Toxics it throws around when backed up by Protect and being Whirlwinded around into Spikes and ugh you can tell I don't like playing Skarm.
While I absolutely acknowledge that Dugtrio is great, I still think Swampert should be just ahead of him. The last sentence I wrote for Skarm applies to Pert, even with teams being built around fucking him up he still performs consistently as hell. Plus he can always go on the offensive!

Raikou is strong. I think it should be bottom of A (if it already is then pardon me) since yeah not super consistent and all but a lot of teams just get gged by it late game, I like to use a really bulky spread to have its Subs survive Zapdos and Gengar assaults.

edit ugh fucking Maestro. I'll respond to that beautiful wall of text after some others have so I don't hog all the fun
 
My personal rankings:
S Rank: Tyranitar
Gengar
Celebi
Suicune
Zapdos
A Rank: Snorlax
Metagross
Jirachi
Salamence
Skarmory
Swampert
Dugtrio
Aerodactyl
Flygon
Jolteon
Heracross
Starmie
Blissey
Magneton

Raikou is top/middle B

Will add reasoning sometime cause I'm busy now
 
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I actually kinda dislike Magneton for A; many Skarm are EVed to live a 252+ SpA Thunderbolt (not sure of the exact spread) and some of those even outspeed, allowing 3 layers of spikes getting up. Magneton isn't just used to remove Skarmory and Forretress, it's an anti-Spikes measure, so I don't think it does this consistently enough as you STILL need levitaters/flying types in order to have a better matchup against spikes teams unless you have spikes of your own. Especially with Spikes being so common, I feel like Mag fits top B better.

edit- I wasn't actually saying that is all its role was, I was just saying that the main utility Mag offers still allows the opp to get spikes up. Having a Rock resist/gar check is great but I still feel like the fact that it allows more than one layer of spikes in certain scenarios isn't optimal. It's still a solid mon but I feel that it's best where it's placed now.

edit in response to isa's post: That happened to me once and I checked in the calc, apparently I miscalced it seems. I still feel like two layers for a mon that serves as an anti-spikes measure isn't ideal, and Mag fits better where it is right now.
 
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I actually kinda dislike Magneton for A; many Skarm are EVed to live a 252+ SpA Thunderbolt (not sure of the exact spread) and some of those even outspeed, allowing 3 layers of spikes getting up. Magneton isn't just used to remove Skarmory and Forretress, it's an anti-Spikes measure, so I don't think it does this consistently enough as you STILL need levitaters/flying types in order to have a better matchup against spikes teams unless you have spikes of your own. Especially with Spikes being so common, I feel like Mag fits top B better.
Mag still takes out Skarm which imo is really great, that thing can be annoying as hell if you let it stick around (read BKC's post above). Plus EndSalac brings a surprising amount of utility to the table, while the Protect and ResTalk sets are really nice defensively (Aero check, Gengar check, Toxic spammer to mess up Dug and Zap, etc). In no sense of the word is this thing just 'an anti-spikes measure', it brings a ton of value based on its set and underestimating it is really dumb.
 
I actually kinda dislike Magneton for A; many Skarm are EVed to live a 252+ SpA Thunderbolt (not sure of the exact spread) and some of those even outspeed, allowing 3 layers of spikes getting up.
Uh.

If you run a 0 Speed Magneton and your opponent runs 252/252+ Skarmory, with the 4 EVs in Speed to outspeed you, you get this:
Magneton Thunderbolt vs. Skarmory: 317-374 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
If you run 68 Speed Magneton (while retaining 252+ SpA), either you'll always outpace Skarmory, or you'll get a guaranteed OHKO on the opposing 184/252+ Skarmory. (these calcs are with a SpA reducing HP on Magneton btw!)

There is no excuse for letting your opponent get three layers lol. Two layers happens sometimes - Timid Magneton, or just a roll, but three layers?
 
Uh.

If you run a 0 Speed Magneton and your opponent runs 252/252+ Skarmory, with the 4 EVs in Speed to outspeed you, you get this:
Magneton Thunderbolt vs. Skarmory: 317-374 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
If you run 68 Speed Magneton (while retaining 252+ SpA), either you'll always outpace Skarmory, or you'll get a guaranteed OHKO on the opposing 184/252+ Skarmory. (these calcs are with a SpA reducing HP on Magneton btw!)

There is no excuse for letting your opponent get three layers lol. Two layers happens sometimes - Timid Magneton, or just a roll, but three layers?
This calc comes from a 252/252 skarm not a 252/252+ skarm, modest mag only has an 18.8% chance of ohkoing 252/252+ skarm. I agree with your point since 0 speed shouldn't be used on mag imo, so three layers isn't likely unless the mag player misplays, but spdef skarm has a very good chance of getting two layers up.
 

M Dragon

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This calc comes from a 252/252 skarm not a 252/252+ skarm, modest mag only has an 18.8% chance of ohkoing 252/252+ skarm. I agree with your point since 0 speed shouldn't be used on mag imo, so three layers isn't likely unless the mag player misplays, but spdef skarm has a very good chance of getting two layers up.
Salac Berry Sp Def Skarmory will set up 3 spikes 80% of the times (credits to VIL for the set)
 
Magnet Magneton :pirate:

Magnet Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252/252+ Skarmory: 321-378 (96.1 - 113.1%)
From the showdown damage calculator:
372 spA mag vs 252hp 252 spdef careful skarm: 292-344
372 spA mag vs 252 hp 252 spdef impish skarm: 321-378 (your calculation)
371 spA mag vs 252 hp 252 spdef impish skarm 317-374 (Isa's calc)
 
Can we drop the Mag vs Skarm talk, I think its established that Skarm will get at least two layers up and die. End of story, come up with a solution keep it to yourself unil the next tour game and have the world stare in awe. Discuss McM's proposals or any other hidden gems that you might like.

Also Samsung tablet formatting is dumb, took me 15 minutes to write this
 
so while this hasn't been active for a while, i'd like to bring up Metagross being better than Zapdos as far as the A-ranks go. A CB boom is essentially a free kill in 90% of games unless you play incredibly obviously and let people get gar in or switch it in repeatedly and keep it as a sac. It's also got great coverage and provides a nice way to break through stuff like zap, LAX (defensive and offensive both are annoying af to offensive teams), blissey, etc. it's a good check to ttar, gar (even w/ WoW meteor miss does HUGE damage), celebi (unless bp), opposing agiligross, aero, cbmence locked into anything besides eq/ddmence and even stuff like superachi. You can also basically slap it on any offense team as a great lure to pert/skarms/forrys/cune in order for your [insert sweeper here] to sweep; could be ddtar, subsalac hera, kingdra (see: ozymandias), etc. You could argue that once it's weakened it's vulnerable to trappers but it beats both 1v1 and it'll probably have gotten a kill by then (duggy can't even hope to switch on rock slide, though mag switches in on anything besides eq [boom's still a 1-for-1 trade]). And this is just the CB set, agiligross is an incredibly threatening sweeper late-game esp. w/ SD Pass celebi and psych up metagross is cool. I personally don't like HPgross since it's gay af and i like the power better but w/e.

Also could salamence be higher than duggy? The trapping utility is nice and duggy can POTENTIALLY singlehandedly screw over stall teams (what with trapping blissey and co.) as well as common af mons like ttar celebi weakened cune raikou rachi mag meta, but a lot of those can survive a hit and ohko you back usually; Jolteon just BPs out, and even the slightest prior damage or a layer of spikes means that 48 sdef duggy dies to defensive celebi's hp grass and gives blissey the ability to OHKO unless a really low roll. Ik that duggy can double or get a free switch but it's still incredibly risky especially when you don't even know if it wins 1v1 situations. Yes it warps the meta around itself, but i feel like most mons have ways to get around it and it's not as effective as mence, which is unpredictable and can singlehandedly rip most teams apart. CB does a shitton to DEFENSIVE zapdos w/ rock slide (and most zapdos run hp grass so it can even just win 1v1), earthquake/fire blast hits most steels, physical silk scarf or black belt can lure skarm, ddmence is incredibly threatening late-game, not to mention that wishmence is basically one of THE best counters (aside from weezing) to any heracross variant. It's a really versatile mon and great at what it does, and although i might've understated the utility of trapping i think it's better than duggy.

Also I feel that low B is too low for kingdra/ludi, while they aren't incredibly splashable they are incredible offensive threats with ludi also being able to run a cool defensive RD set. I'd not say top B but above cloyster, maybe?
 
To the above:
Metagross is a really top notch mon but I don't know about being above Zapdos as that thing is an absolute behemoth atm, seeing the potency of Electric STAB+Toxic to cripple Resists (bar Steelix). Meta does break a ton of stuff but like all CBers it relies a ton on prediction and if out-predicted has to run (btw CB does get worn down by repeated hits+Spikes), while this also makes it much more vulnerable to being trapped than you admit. It doesn't actually break Zap either without clicking Rock Slide or Explosion, while TBolt hurts it a ton (again worn down). Explosion is fun but essentially is a one for one trade, as usually you're just taking out a Skarm or Pert (and I've protected on more exploding Metas than I can count....makes me cry with laughter every time :) Though I will be the last person to say Meta is bad (could actually slot in right under Zap imo, and will ALWAYS get at least one kill a game), it's not exactly Zapper level (does so much it's ridiculous).

Mence going up would be pretty cool as it is versatile as all hell, best Hera check on the block, and contributes a ton with any set: CB checks a bunch of annoying mons (DDTAR, and CMSpam) while weakening Bulky Waters, MixMence cracks defensive teams wide open with Toxic+3 Atks, and WishMence is such a team player imo.

Can't really comment on rain mons as I've never used them (procrastination), but they sound cool!

Last thing is Jirachi moving up, it's a pretty sick mon that brings a bunch to a team: Aero check, Zap check, Lax check, sort of Gar check with Lum Berry (which is a thing), can Wish Pass to keep a team healthy, and of course CM variants are as deadly as ever (WishCM(can run 2 Atks, Reflect, Protect or Toxic to mess things up) and of course Superachi). The deciding factor though is the Wish+BSlam Jirachi, which is almost as good as DPP SpDef Jirachi at dismantling offensive teams. I don't know how far to move it but yeah it deserves a bump.

Edit: Camerupt could go to B as well as its actually really solid, with Electrics like Zapdos on the rise something to take random TBolts is really nice and underrated. It also checks offensive Celebi and Jirachi, which plenty of teams (even those with Lax and whatnot) can struggle against. I think the clincher though is the fact that it gets in and can stick around, even against Mence and Bulky Waters just throw out a Toxic and then Protect a few times to scout and rack up damage (this makes it really handy as all sorts of teams like Pert and it's ilk out of the way, while almost as many appreciate Mence down). Explosion is another solid option as it can open holes vs a lot of things (Toxic and Explosion are both more effective for Camel cause steel typed aren't comfortable within a 10 mile radius of it). It's not perfect but it is pretty solid and could use a bump.
 
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Just replying to some of the top portion of your post- well, prediction is a two-way street, cb meta obviously gets worn down but my point was it's AT LEAST a 1v1 trade and you can boom on your own terms; for example, it's actually a decent way to deal with stall AND spikes; if you have it in on a non-eq locked aero you can boom in order to kill the incoming spikemon/pert; obv you won't boom vs it 1v1 lol.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I was looking at the thread, and I'm thinking, what makes Blaziken so bad it's D rank? It seems like a neat mixed attacker but has bad bulk and average speed, but I think it could be C rank. (Also, Charizard is C rank ;_; sadness.)