Arceus-Ground [GP: 2/2]

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ApplepieFTW

ApplepieFTW

arceus-ground.gif


my sides have left the ground

[OVERVIEW]
Ground Arceus has a number of niches, allowing it to fill a useful role on many balanced teams. With excellent bulk and base 120 stats across the board, Ground Arceus is able to excellently support its team or threaten to sweep with a Swords Dance set. The most important defensive role for Ground Arceus is to check perhaps the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame, Primal Groudon, with its super effective Ground-type STAB moves. It also threatens many entry hazard users such as Klefki, Dialga, Primal Groudon, Tyranitar, and Diancie, with the deadly Swords Dance set having an easy time setting up against them. It has the ability to sweep through a significant number of Pokemon thanks to the coverage that EdgeQuake provides. However, Ground Arceus lacks the power to immeditately break trough Pokemon, and it has redundant type synergy with Primal Groudon. Luckily, Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Kyogre and Grass Arceus are uncommon allowing Ground Arceus to be even deadlier.


[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Recover
item: Earth Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Swords Dance enables Ground Arceus to sweep by giving it a +2 Attack boost under its belt. Earthquake gets the STAB bonus and is what Ground Arceus uses to hit most targets, particularly Primal Groudon. Stone Edge hits most Pokemon that Earthquake doesn't, such as Flying-types and Levitate users. Recover might seem somewhat surprising on a set that is meant to sweep. It is used to give Ground Arceus more longevity, which is very useful when switching in on Pokemon such as Mega Diancie and, most importantly, Primal Groudon. This way, Ground Arceus can threaten out the opposing Pokemon when there isn't an opportunity to sweep, use Recover, and then make sure that it can do so later.

Set Details
========
Maximum Attack investment is used because the point of this set is to sweep. Ground Arceus needs the extra power to immediately threaten Primal Groudon, and it's also useful for deling more damage to physically bulky Pokemon such as Lugia and physically defensive Yveltal. A Jolly nature and 252 Speed EVs let Ground Arceus outspeed Latios, Latias, and non-Mega Gengar, as well as Speed tie with other fully invested Arceus formes.

Usage Tips
========

Ground Arceus is a very threatening mid- and late-game sweeper. Try to get it in on Pokemon it threatens out as often as possible so that you can create ample opportunity for it to set up. Examples include Steel-types such as Klefki and other Pokemon weak to Stone Edge. In practice, there are very few reliable checks to Ground Arceus, so it's mostly a matter of creating opportunity. Recover combined with Arceus's natural bulk allows it to play very offensively, but make sure to keep healthy if you want to reliably check Primal Groudon, as even an uninvested Precipice Blades can hurt. Ground Arceus must be especially wary of switching in on Primal Groudon carrying Lava Plume, as a burned Ground Arceus is effectively useless.


Team Options
========

Ground Arceus doesn't need a lot of team support; it's very deadly on its own. In fact, it supports the team by checking bothersome Steel-types and Primal Groudon when you need it to. A Pokemon that can absorb burns is much appreciated, as Ground Arceus becomes almost useless when burned. Ground Arceus is most threatening when your team has Pokemon that appreciate an offensive check to Primal Groudon, such as Fairy- and Steel-types, as well as Pokemon that suffer from opposing Steel-types. This way you can get Ground Arceus in as often as possible. While Ground Arceus does provide good offensive pressure, it needs a way to get around its checks and counters. Generally speaking, you will need an answer to bulky Primal Kyogre variants, support Arceus variants such as Water Arceus and Grass Arceus, and fast revenge killers such as Darkrai and Shaymin-S. Latios, Latias, and Primal Groudon can take care of Primal Kyogre. Primal Groudon that carry a Fire-type move can dispose of Grass Arceus, whereas Latios and Latias that carry Calm Mind beat both Grass Arceus and Water Arceus. Priority users such as Extreme Killer Arceus can beat problematic revenge killers. Healing Wish users such as Latias and Shaymin-S can heal a weakened Ground Arceus, which it appreciates, as finding the time to use Recover can be a challenge.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options

=========
Both Shadow Force and Refresh have a tiny niche, with Shadow Force arguably having a bigger one. Shadow Force circumvents Giratina-O and the uncommon Giratina checking Ground Arceus reliably and can damage Lugia more than Stone Edge while still hitting Pokemon such as Latios and Latias. Because you give up important coverage in Stone Edge, which allows Ground Arceus to hit Mega Salamence, among other things, you can also run Shadow Force alongside Stone Edge. Refresh can shrug off status ailments, such as the dreaded burn or Toxic from Klefki, for example, so that Ground Arceus has more longevity. Extreme Speed can finish off Pokemon that would otherwise revenge kill Ground Arceus, such as Shaymin-S, Darkrai, and Mewtwo, though it is rather weak. For each of these options, it is hard to justify the loss of recovery. Dragon Claw still hits Mega Salamence as well as Giratina-O for more damage than Stone Edge, but it is weaker versus almost anything else, most notably Lugia. Ground Arceus can also run a special set with Judgment, Recover, Defog or Calm Mind, and Will-O-Wisp or Ice Beam. The Defog set can reliably Defog against many entry hazard users and is a good check to Primal Groudon. The Calm Mind set aims to set up on and power through the opposing team with its coverage. Both sets, however, fail to threaten Ho-Oh, leaving a huge gap in the defensive backbone of the team that Ground Arceus is used on. Additionally, balanced teams often have a hard time dealing with Ho-Oh already. Thunder on the Calm Mind set can beat Ho-Oh while also beating Primal Kyogre, but you then lose the ability to hit Mega Salamence, Latios, and Latias, among others. Both Toxic and Will-O-Wisp are great options when using Defog, letting Ground Arceus cripple common switch-ins effectively. Being able to hit those Pokemon makes Ground Arceus much less passive and more effective in practice.

Checks and Counters

============
**Skarmory and Bronzong**: Both of these Pokemon are immune to Ground Arceus' STAB moves, forcing it to rely on the weaker Stone Edge to hit them. However, because Bronzong resists Rock-type moves, Skarmory has stellar physical bulk, and Ground Arceus's Stone Edge doesn't rank among the strongest of moves, they take little damage from it. Bronzong must be wary of Shadow Force, but the move is uncommon.

**Water-types**: Water-types such as Primal Kyogre and Water Arceus can sufficiently deal with Ground Arceus. Defensive Kyogre variants have the bulk to eat up a +2 Earthquake and OHKO with Scald. Offensive variants can check Arceus as long as it remains unboosted. Water Arceus can hit Ground Arceus with Judgment or Will-O-Wisp; however, Ground Arceus can beat the most common Water Arceus variant, which carries Toxic and Ice Beam.

**Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Shaymin-S and Grass Arceus have strong STAB moves to OHKO Arceus with. Shaymin-S outspeeds Ground Arceus, whereas Grass Arceus can take Stone Edges well. Both can switch in on Earthquake as well.

**Giratina and Giratina-O**: Giratina-O is immune to Earthquake and has good natural bulk, so it can phaze Ground Arceus with Dragon Tail. Giratina, while uncommon, can do the same thanks to its stellar bulk, and it can burn Ground Arceus as well. It can also use Rest to get rid of the damage, whereas Giratina-O cannot do so.

**Revenge Killers**: Fast Pokemon such as Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, and Darkrai can effectively check Ground Arceus thanks to their superior Speed stats. Mewtwo can launch a super effective Ice Beam, Deoxys-A has an even stronger Psycho Boost, and Darkrai can put it to sleep and proceed to use Nasty Plot or Dark Pulse. Extreme Speed can pick these Pokemon off before they can do so in return, but Mewtwo and Darkrai need to have already incurred a bit of chip damage.

**Burns**: Ground Arceus despises burns because they effectively render it useless. A burned Ground Arceus will fail to sweep anything, and it cannot effectively check the Pokemon it could before because of the residual damage.



swords dance part taken from xy analysis by PISTOLERO, so credit for that part of the analysis goes to him as I revamped will be revamping that part. the stuff in font size 1 is from his analysis, I'll revamp it later.

arceus-ground.gif


my sides have left the ground

Overview
########

Arceus-Ground gained new niches during the generation shift, filling a useful role on many balanced teams. With excellent bulk and typical Arceus base 120 stats, Arceus-Ground is able to excellently support His team, or threaten to sweep with a calm mind set. The most important defensive role for Arceus-Ground is to check perhaps the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame, Primal Groudon, with its super effective Ground-type Judgment. It is one of the most reliable defogger in terms of beating entry hazard users, being able to beat Klefki, Dialga, Primal Groudon, Tyranitar and Diancie among others. It can also act as a very useful Thunder Wave sponge and severely threatens Klefki, the most common user of Prankster Thunder Wave, which can ruin offensive teams otherwise. The deadly Swords Dance set has an easy time setting up against the afro-mentioned Pokemon. It has the ability to sweep trough a significant amount of Pokemon thanks to the coverage EdgeQuake provides, as well as His good defensive typing.

Arceus-Ground does have some flaws however. He finds itself having a hard time against Pokemon immune to Judgment, such as Ho-Oh and the eon twins; Yveltal does not like getting burnt but is a free switch otherwise. Ice Beam often doesn't hit hard enough, and His switch-ins are only mildly, if at all, annoyed by Will-O-Wsip. He lacks the power to break trough specially bulky Pokemon, and has redundant synergy with Primal Groudon. The great thing is, His Swords Dance set can smash some of the checks to the special set, giving Arceus-Ground a fair bit of unpredictability and very few safe switch-ins. The Calm Mind set can also beat the eon twins, but cannot do so if they carry Calm Mind. Pokemon like Choice Scarf Kyogre and Arceus-Grass are less common this generation, thus allowing Arceus-Ground to be even deadlier. Using Arceus-Ground does come with a bit of opportunity cost, as you cannot run another Arceus forme, such as Extreme Killer Arceus, or sets with Calm Mind+Refresh.



Swords Dance
########
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Recover
item: Earth Plate
nature: Jolly
evs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe

Moves
========
  • Swords Dance is the move that makes this set
  • Earthquake hits everything not immune/resistant to hit very hard
  • Stone Edge nails the things eq doesnt, and gives great neutral EdgeQuake coverage
  • Recover is better allows Arceus-Ground to check Pirmal Groudon throughout the match, and increases its survivability while setting up
  • Ice Beam can also be used in favour of Recover as it easily breaks Gliscor and Landorus-T. You do give up a fair bit of longevity, as well as the ability to reliably check Primal Groudon.

Set Details
========
  • Max HP is to reliably check Primal Groudon throughout the match; recover significantly helps with doing this. With Swords Dance, Arceus-Ground's attack already gets boosted to dangerous levels, so the extra attack isn't always needed.
  • Jolly outspeeds things like latis, non-Mega Gengar, as well as speed tying with max Speed Arceus
  • I'll mention some alternative spreads here with an adamant nature

Usage Tips
========

  • Great late-game sweeper when checks are gone/weakened
  • Great offensive check to Primal Groudon
  • Recover lets it play pretty offensive, especially against team lacking status
  • Try to get set up opportunities against things you scare out with EdgeQuake coverage. Arceus formes are naturally bulky, so don't be afraid to set up when given a free switch into a weaker attacker.

Team Options
========

  • This mon doesn't need a whole lot of support, as it is super deadly once it gets the opportunity to set up, checks like scarfogre are uncommon in oras
  • Something to absorb burns
  • Things that benefit from something that can gain momentum from Primal Groudon (fairies, steels, etc)

Calm Mind
########
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Ice beam
move 4: Recover
ability: Multitype
item: Earth Plate
evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spd
nature: Timid

Moves
========
  • Judgment is His hardest hitting move
  • Ice Beam hits things Judgment doesn't, and provides decent neutral coverage
  • Calm Mind is the move that lets it sweep with a few boosts under His belt, it can gain set-up opportunities fairly easily because of it's defensively useful Ground-typing.
  • Recover provides longevity, and it is needed when trying to set up because it prevents Arceus-Ground from getting worn down easily.

Set Details
========
  • Max Speed is chosen to outspeed most common threats, and to be as fast as possible which is nice for Calm Mind wars with opposing Arceus, as well as support sets trying to get a last-ditch status off. 176 Timid is also usable, as it still outspeeds the eon twins and is faster than non-Mega Gengar allowing you to play mind games with it. You do lose out on being to speed tie with Arceus Formes, as well as well as max Speed Mega Salamence, so you can use Ice Beam before it gets of a heavy hit.
  • Max hp is chosen to ease setting up, and to maintain the ability to reliably check Pirmal Groudon. Odd HP minimizes residual damage, and the leftover ev's are placed into Special Attack as they are not useful elsewhere.

Usage Tips
========
  • Because of the great bulk Arceus formes possess, Arceus-Ground has a relatively easy time setting up against special attackers.
  • Even with Stealth Rock up, Ho-Oh and Lugia can easily wall this set, so unless they are dead or badly worn you will not be able to pull of a sweep if your opponent has those Pokemon. When this is the case, only use Arceus Ground to check Pokemon like Dialga, Zekrom and Primal Groudon, but do not set up early on as it is a waste of a turn.
Support
########
name: Defog
move 1: Defog
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Will-O-Wisp/Ice Beam
ability: Multitype
item: Earth Plate
evs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spd
nature: Bold

Moves
========
  • Judgment is His most most powerful move, and the one that lets Him check hazard setters.
  • Defog is the main move of this set. It is great for team support, and Arceus-Ground has an easy time defogging because it matches up so well versus hazard users.
  • Recover is needed for longevity
  • Will-O-Wisp has utility in providing passive damage on things that like to switch in on Arceus-Ground, while Ice Beam hits them for direct damage. Gliscor is the only target Ice beam hits that Will-O-Wisp doesn't.

Set Details
========
  • 124 spe outspeeds max speed base 90's/max speed Primal Groudon with a positive nature.
  • A Bold nature alongside HP and Defense ev's maximize His physical bulk letting it check Primal Groudon and physical attackers better. Odd HP minimizes residual damage.
  • 16 spe outspeeds neutral natured base 90's, and means you can invest a lot more in Defense. 176 Timid outspeeds Latios and Latias, as well as non-Mega Gengar

Usage Tips
========
  • Switch in on hazard users if you want to remove said hazards, particularly Primal Groudon. Arceus-Ground also has a great match-up against all hazard setters, as mentioned in the overview.
  • Arceus-Ground also checks all Dialga and Zekrom variants
  • Ground is a good defensive typing, allowing it to also Defog on Pokemon that don't set up hazards.
  • This set is also good as spreading around status and wearing down the opposing team, which makes this set less passive.
  • Try keeping Arceus-Ground at high health when removing hazards throughout the match is a priority. If this is less of an issue, you can play more aggressively with His moves, as well as with checking Primal Groudon.
Team Options
========
  • Things that benefit from having hazards off the field, such as Ho-Oh and VoltTurn cores.
  • Pokemon limited in their potential because of their vulnerability to Primal Groudon, notable Steel-types like Scizor, Aegislash and Klefki. Klefki is an interesting partner, because while setting up hazards and then Defogging them away seems counter-productive, this makes it so you can set up Spikes versus certain teams, while you would rather focus on removing hazards versus others.
  • Mega Diancie when you are using multiple Pokemon weak to hazards. Mega Diancie has great synergy with Arceus-Ground, as it does well against Arceus-Ground's checks, such as Yveltal, Ho-Oh and the eon twins.

Other Options
########
  • Both Dragon Claw and Refresh have a tiny niche on the Swords Dance set. Dragon Claw hits Giratina-O harder, and Refresh shrugs off status and lets it do better versus stall. Giving up Recover is rarely worth it though.
  • ExtremeSpeed can finish off things that are faster, such as shaymin, darkrai and scarfers. It's rather weak though.
  • Blizzard hits harder than Ice Beam, but is less accurate.
  • Thunder beats Ho-Oh and Kyogre more easily, but makes it so that He is walled by quite a bit of stuff.
  • Toxic or Thunder Wave over Will-O-Wisp/Ice beam on the support set.

Checks & Counters
########
  • Flying-types and Levitate users that are immune to His STAB. Ho-Oh, Yveltal and the eon twins will do well versus special sets, Gliscor and Landorus-T do well versus the Swords Dance set. Bronzong and Skarmory wall both sets, they only fear getting burnt. Giratina phazes and burns and doesn't mind burns, gira-o checks sd well but fears the special set.
  • Lugia pp stalls SD sets out of edges, and phazes/statuses special sets.
  • Toxic enormously hinders longevity
  • Things that hit it super effectively (skymin, kyogre)
  • Burn screws SD, annoys the special sets a bit
 
Last edited:
this is WIP until I have written/reverted back to a skeleton for the SD set. please discuss the other sets though, I probably missed some stuff.

sry for my atrocious spelling/grammar btw, poor gp n_n
 
mention cm set (ice beam coverage) which reaches enough speed for adamant mega-mence works really well at the moment
 
Put OV in Bullet Points por favor

Set order should be SD -> CM -> Defog. Not sure how viable Defog set is atm

CM needs Max Speed

SD should be max HP/Speed. Ice Beam should get a moves mention at least

I'll comment more later
 
I thought people said wisp support groudceus was bad when i suggest it in the p.s room.

Toshhy said:
A set that I invented for Arceus-Ground is the following:

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Timid Nature
196 HP / 56 SAtk / 252 Spd
~Judgment
~Will-O-Wisp
~Defog
~Recover

Enough SAtk to ohko Primal Groudon, can emergency check Mega Rayquaza, takes care of support Dialga and can emergency check Ekiller among other things. Only thing is, you can't touch Ho-oh and Primal Kyogre is a pain switching into WoW. (Although Will-O-Wisp should be able to pierce Primal Kyogre, still waiting for confirmation if it's a PS! mistake).
Click to expand...
 
Couple of things:
- I personally still find SD more better than CM. I get that CM is better now because it hits Primal Don harder, but against everything else, it's still worse off. You can't break P Ogre with it while it drowns you with Water attacks, Lati twins laugh at you if they have Calm Mind, Ho-oh still laughs at you, Lugia still takes less than +2 Stone Edge than from +1 Ice Beam and yadda yadda. I'm a bit skeptical myself of how effective CM Groundceus is, but I'll take everyone's word for it that it deserves a set. On the other hand though, I still think SD is better so move SD up to set #2 and move CM down to #3.
- EVs for CM:
  • 216 Timid outspeeds neutral max speed mega salamence
Click to expand...
1) Why neutral max Mega Mence?
2) You can drop your Speed EVs even lower if neutral Mega Mence is actually your target. You can run 136 Spe with a Timid nature if that is your target, although 176 is probably better to outspeed Lati@s.
 
shrang said:
Couple of things:
- I personally still find SD more better than CM. I get that CM is better now because it hits Primal Don harder, but against everything else, it's still worse off. You can't break P Ogre with it while it drowns you with Water attacks, Lati twins laugh at you if they have Calm Mind, Ho-oh still laughs at you, Lugia still takes less than +2 Stone Edge than from +1 Ice Beam and yadda yadda. I'm a bit skeptical myself of how effective CM Groundceus is, but I'll take everyone's word for it that it deserves a set.
Click to expand...

It's a far better check to Primal Groudon than SD since it is not totally crippled by Lave Plume burns and hits its weaker Special Defense. It also has a much easier time punching through Giratina-O and Mega Salamence, both of whom are quite common in the current metagame + are good checks to the SD set. Latis are a little annoying but it is worth noting that they can't actually beat you if they don't have Calm Mind, you can CM as they come in, CM again and then 2HKO with Ice Beam while they can't 2HKO with Psyshock (Latios can also be 2HKOed with just 1 CM). It does lose kinda hard to Ho-Oh, but Ho-Oh beats pretty much all the relevant Calm Mind Arceus formes anyway so it's not a huge deal (though Groundceus can't touch at at all which is definitely much more annoying). I agree that SD is generally better but Calm Mind isn't bad at all in this metagame since it does handle some relevant stuff better.
 
I agree with Shrang about SD being better than CM and it's better than support as well. A mon without a ground immunity can't be a perfect check to pDon anyway- running Groundceus should be like some sort of back up check max. So yeah I am in favour of SD being the main set. I think a lot of people tend to forget how bad it is to be total ho-oh bait, but yeah shrang pointed out the stuff already.
 
Intro

Physically defensive Yveltal (arguably the best Yveltal set at the moment) despises Will-O-Wisp, so I'd edit that phrase. Also, that sentence specifically applies to the Support set, not Swords Dance (which can Stone Edge both of those birds). Skarmory and Lugia are probably bigger long-term universal issues to Groundceus than either Yveltal or Ho-Oh. Also, talk a bit more about SD Groundceus and de-emphasize Support, I have no problems with bumping SD as the #1 set.

Support

This does more than simply check hazard setters; you also check Zekrom & all viable Dialga sets fairly well and spread status. Ground is a good defensive typing in ORAS. Emphasize this. Usage tips should stress staying healthy when you really need hazards off your side of the field, but be more willing to be aggressive with Judgment and WoW / Ice Beam in match-ups where enemy hazards are not as big a deal.

Calm Mind

Mention that even with SR out, this Arceus forme is easily countered by Ho-Oh and Lugia in Usage Tips, so until they're dead or badly worn down only use Groundceus to check stuff like P Don and Zekrom. I'm fine with the listed spread, but does this set really deserve an analysis? (puke)

Swords Dance aka RIP Champion Lance

Adamant 212 Speed is a possible spread that I'd never run myself, since I don't like getting outsped by many other Arceus formes (especially WoW variants). Dragon Claw, Ice Beam, ESpeed and Refresh all have tiny niches but in general are badly outclassed...MAYBE briefly mention them but don't slash any. Also Scarfogre isn't nonexistent, just not nearly as good.

Other Options

Ice Beam is mentioned on the first two sets, so remove it. Magic Coat can be very annoying, just to name something else.

Checks & Counters

looks good
 
shrang said:
Couple of things:
- I personally still find SD more better than CM. I get that CM is better now because it hits Primal Don harder, but against everything else, it's still worse off. You can't break P Ogre with it while it drowns you with Water attacks, Lati twins laugh at you if they have Calm Mind, Ho-oh still laughs at you, Lugia still takes less than +2 Stone Edge than from +1 Ice Beam and yadda yadda. I'm a bit skeptical myself of how effective CM Groundceus is, but I'll take everyone's word for it that it deserves a set. On the other hand though, I still think SD is better so move SD up to set #2 and move CM down to #3.
- EVs for CM:

1) Why neutral max Mega Mence?
2) You can drop your Speed EVs even lower if neutral Mega Mence is actually your target. You can run 136 Spe with a Timid nature if that is your target, although 176 is probably better to outspeed Lati@s.
Click to expand...
Oops I completely derped with the amount of ev's I invested, sorry for that lol. Problems told me that that spread was good, so I went with it. I'll mention 1/2 other spreads in set details, like 136 you suggested. I'll make SD the first set.

Sweep said:
Intro

Physically defensive Yveltal (arguably the best Yveltal set at the moment) despises Will-O-Wisp, so I'd edit that phrase. Also, that sentence specifically applies to the Support set, not Swords Dance (which can Stone Edge both of those birds). Skarmory and Lugia are probably bigger long-term universal issues to Groundceus than either Yveltal or Ho-Oh. Also, talk a bit more about SD Groundceus and de-emphasize Support, I have no problems with bumping SD as the #1 set.

Support

This does more than simply check hazard setters; you also check Zekrom & all viable Dialga sets fairly well and spread status. Ground is a good defensive typing in ORAS. Emphasize this. Usage tips should stress staying healthy when you really need hazards off your side of the field, but be more willing to be aggressive with Judgment and WoW / Ice Beam in match-ups where enemy hazards are not as big a deal.

Calm Mind

Mention that even with SR out, this Arceus forme is easily countered by Ho-Oh and Lugia in Usage Tips, so until they're dead or badly worn down only use Groundceus to check stuff like P Don and Zekrom. I'm fine with the listed spread, but does this set really deserve an analysis? (puke)
Swords Dance aka RIP Champion Lance

Adamant 212 Speed is a possible spread that I'd never run myself, since I don't like getting outsped by many other Arceus formes (especially WoW variants). Dragon Claw, Ice Beam, ESpeed and Refresh all have tiny niches but in general are badly outclassed...MAYBE briefly mention them but don't slash any. Also Scarfogre isn't nonexistent, just not nearly as good.
Other Options

Ice Beam is mentioned on the first two sets, so remove it. Magic Coat can be very annoying, just to name something else.
Checks & Counters

looks good
Click to expand...
ty I'll do all of this, I'll even call the SD set Hero of Sinnoh gettit because it's arceus and lance alt

Well I think both support and cm should keep their own set, but since everyone is feeling kinda eh about it maybe there is a fix. I dont think this is actually a good idea, but I could merge them into one set with judge+recover, and then ice beam/will-o-wisp and calm mind/defog and have a huge set details talking about what each set does and the key differences? Because both set actually function decently similar. One of the niches it has as a CM forme is being an amazing primal don check, as well as a good ray/mence check. What makes the defog set good is that it is a super reliable hazard remover and primal don check, as well as a good check to ray and mence. I'll also outline that wisp should only be run on the support set, but that even on that set ice beam is also viable but wisp helps catch checks/counters on the switch-in, as well as checks things like kangas.
 
Hang on a minute, ApplepieFTW have you implemented any of the changes suggested by all of the QC members? I don't see the changes outlined by any of us (eg you still have 216 Spe Timid on CM Groundceus when there isn't any specific need for it). I'm presuming and hoping you're taking all of these into account when you're writing the analysis itself, but can you edit all of these into the OP so I can see that you've implemented all the changes?
 
Not yet, sorry for being slow with this. I just woke up and today is going to be one of my rare days where I'm not super busy so I'll get to it.

I'd assume problems agreed with all of sweep's changes and had nothing more to add.
 
ok, updated all the stuffs. again apologies for being slow :[ I'll tag shrang as I think he wanted me to let him know when I finished judging from his post. I'd also like to know what 212 adamant on SD actually does, iirc it was a spread on webs last gen but if QC could tell me what it does that would be nice, I'll add it then. I'll get to writing this up

also I could have sworn the guidelines said that you can do overview in full text from the beginning, but I couldn't find it so yeah oops. I suppose it's fine leaving it the way it is now though? If its needed to still revert to bullet points I'll do it but eh
 
Okay just a little nitpick, on the spreads I think you should write "Spe" instead of "Spd". While it is obvious to experienced players that Arceus-Ground runs speed, some newer players have been confused by this thinking it was Special Defense, because the common abbreviation for Special Defense is SpD. In fact, some places have Speed written as "Spe" while others have it written as "Spd".
 
For the HP number of all the sets, iirc an odd number is only suggested for stealth rock neutral Pokemon, whereas stealth rock resistant pokes take less damage with numbers divisible by 16.
 
yeah imo you should run 252 HP on all sets to increase the HP gained from Recover by 1, while only increasing damage from like 3 layers of spikes.
also maybe put last 4 EVs in SDef for cm and sd so genesect doesn't get boosted ice beams?
 
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