Project Break This Team (Week 42)

Alright, voting for this week has ended! Thanks for the activity. Its a very close week and I find myself tied with Infernal with 4 votes each. Thanks for the votes and congratulations to Infernal.

My core is Mega Pinsir + Weavile while Infernal's is Scarf Ttar + Mega Venusaur btw.

Core 1 - 4
Core 2 - 0
Core 3 - 4
Core 4 - 3
Core 5 - 2
Core 6 - 1

This week, we're breaking Nedor 's Gyarados HO team which features Moxie Rest DD Gyarados and Salac Berry Garchomp. Good luck and have fun!!

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love remains (Gyarados) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 72 HP / 188 Atk / 248 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Rest

heart of stone (Garchomp) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Endure
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

room of darkness (Heatran) @ Power Herb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 176 HP / 92 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Magma Storm
- Solar Beam

my secret (Thundurus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

insomnia (Breloom) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Force Palm

only (Scizor-Mega) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower

Based on the Hyper Offensive nature of the team, this build predominantly focuses on exerting enough pressure consistently until a setup opportunity can be found with one of the build's many win conditions to sweep. On that note, while DD Gyarados is what the team is centered around, giving it the best opportunities to clean with the build's tools, it will admittedly not have the best match-up once in a while. in this position, the team can easily adapt to any given situation in multiple ways: last resort speed control / sweeper check in priority Thunder Wave, numerous priority users capable of revenge killing, or using the 'mon on the field as setup fodder to stay in your opponent's face & pressure them.

Team Preview is really beneficial when playing with this team; you may get overwhelmed by the fact that you have more than a few options to clean late game, but you must think logically & in a way divide the roles of your members. for example, SD Garchomp might not be capable of winning a match for whatever reason, but it can still be abused as an early game wallbreaker to weaken something into range of one of your setup sweepers that you plan on only bringing out later on. As I briefly mentioned in the previous paragraph, this team doesn't necessarily have 100% switchins to many threatening 'mons, but, they are definitely manageable through offensive pressure, putting them in range of priority, etc. in general, this team can be viewed as heavy offense as it uses four physical Win Conditions / Setup Sweepers that share similar checks defensively and offensively, allowing you to overwhelm them quite easily.

This 'physical spam' core is complimented with a few Special Attackers, specifically a rocker to slowly chip away switch-ins, a lure in Heatran in order to pave a sweep late game from one of the members, as well as speed control from Thundurus in case things get problematic.
 
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what on earth is 248 spe jolly gyarados and why would you not run 252 lol Nedor. also consider 204 hp / 52 spa / 252 spe on heatran, same defensive benchmark.

this team is actually pretty hard to beat in practice, since having multiple set up mons allows the player to sacrifice an appropriate mon to break through. however, there is a very heavy weakness to elecs, which basically outspeeds the majority of the team. i really don't think just priority is reasonable to check it as you have to sac something every time. endure garchomp makes salac obvious, which means that any sd chomp check + opposing thundurus will beat the team.

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 4 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Thunder Wave
- Roost

Edit: It's not so much that I don't want to read your RMT but
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it's longer than my college application.
 
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If someone posts Mega Mane + Weavile I'll smack them. It's a fine core but gets too much hype for breaking everything when in practice it really doesn't. Manectric is certainly very strong against this team but Weavile is not the appropriate choice of partner here...
 
Seriously Manectric has a field day with this one. Offensive starmie also bodies.

Reserved Manec + Starmie

Defensively, something like mandibuzz gastro or mandibuzz tangrowth would wreck.
 
yuruuu said:
what on earth is 248 spe jolly gyarados and why would you not run 252 lol Nedor. also consider 204 hp / 52 spa / 252 spe on heatran, same defensive benchmark.
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good afternoon. if you bothered to read the rmt (not blaming you if you didn't), you'd understand what the gyarados spread does specifically and where i got it from. go ahead & run 252, idrc. i'm not cutting it down to 52 spatk on tran because 92 gets really specific rolls on 'mons i need gone with enough bulk for elecs & friends.

as i did mention in my rmt, a lot of these threats that are gonna be posted will be relatively or extremely subjective depending on whats posted, especially since its hyper offense & there's no reliable defensive backbone! they have ways of being beaten, as displayed in the solid amount of replays at the bottom :3
 
Mamoswine + Mega Manectric
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Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 240 Atk / 16 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Freeze-Dry

Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power Ice

Mamoswine is a threat to this team because 4/6 of the team loses 1 v 1 against it with a fifth (Gyarados) being threatened with a OHKO with Freeze-Dry if it chooses to use Rest. Mega Manectric is added to check Mega Scizor and scare Gyarados out. It is also able to deal some decent damage to the team with Electric / Ice / Fire coverage.
 
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Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Thunder Wave
After analyzing this team for a nice while, I have to say the Electric Spam seems to be the largest issue with this team. Mega Manectric as a pretty nice time with this team as it can pretty much click Volt Switch with impunity as Garchomp meets a swift end with a well timed HP Ice. It also checks Mega Scizor rather well with it's nifty resistance to Bullet Punch and Heatran is worn down incredibly fast from their onslaught. Thundurus itself gives this team massive headaches, especially utilizing Thunder Wave to cripple Gyarados. Garchomp has a nice chance to possibly activate the Salac Berry to outrun them the following turn, but without an SD boost it doesn't have the best chance to come out on top. These two are very prone to residual damage though, so this team does have ways to micromanage them, but only through extremely well and calculated plays.
 
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Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Ngl took some time to think about it considering how well it is built and how annoying status can be. NP Thundy has no problem having fun wooping dis team's ass cause +2 Tbolt OHKO's scizor and the rest of the mons(if it wins speed tie vs thundy). Now if Thundy falls but kills g chomp or thundy then dragonite wins cause +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Scizor: 137-162 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO and +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO and eq stops heatran. Outrage can be used but confusion is ass. E Speed is incase u don't KO thundy but put it in a good range to kill it or if u let Gyara et up like nuts >_>. Multiscale and Lum r pretty vital to sweeping the team
 
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Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Flamethrower

This core beat easily this team, the amazing coverage of nidoking allows him to beat Gyara+Tran+Chomp with no problems, also with sludge wave can pressure Thund and Loom, mega Manectric helps Nidoking generating momentum that allows Nidoking to do a great job forcing the opponent to push back his pokemon, and in those situations you have to be good at predicting the pokemon that will put the opponent to take him by surprise using the move right.
 
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Latias (Latias-Mega) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect Type / Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recover

Keldeo-R (Keldeo-Resolute) @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 24 HP / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
the majority of m-lati balances in general tend to give this team hell cause: the boltbeam weakness offense usually has, and the fact that m-lati balances are usually able to outlast the majority of offense teams as they can't really pressure them all too well. i really just partnered it with keld-r cause its one of the primary options on there to alleviate tias from getting over pressured but pretty much the majority of tran / mzor checks work as a partner. anyways m-lati comfortably switches into 4/6 of the members bar spore and pressures everything with the boltbeam coverage, keld-r makes up for what m-lati can't cover and switches into the rest and pressures stuff back /w strong scalds. although keldeo does give gyarados a potential set up opportunity m-lati lives a +1 bounce and can tbolt back and it can't really do that for free as the gyara has to deal with the possibility of scald burns to take a turn to consume its berry for a rest. the core still receives a fair bit of trouble from thundy (sometimes chomper too if it somehow gets both salac + sd up) but in return it has good matchup vs everything else, most teams carrying this core usually has way more insurance against threats like that though :x.​
 
Time for core nominations is over and now its time voting. We have 6 cores this week taking on this powerful offensive team and yet not one Weavile to be seen. I'm edging ever closer to punishing you all with a Thunder wave spam team >: }

The Cores

Core 1 - Thundorous + Togekiss
Core 2 - Mamoswine + Mega Manectric
Core 3 - Mega Manetric + Thundorous
Core 4 - Thundorous + Dragonite
Core 5 - Nidoking + Mega Manetric
Core 6 - Mega Latias + Keldeo

As usual, everyone gets 2 Votes (no voting for your own core!) . Voting will end on Monday. Good luck and have fun!!! Oh yeah, whoever reaches the Hall of Fame 3 times or more gets to have their team broken.
 
Just Updated the hall of Fame and we have new additions to the hall. Infernal once again leads the nomination tally and still reserves the right to post a team of her Choice at anytime as does matthewc20090 who sits at 3. Joining them in the top is my Co-host Random Passerby who can nominate another team himself or since he is a co-host can pass his nomination onto a Mod. Finally we have our 2 new additions. yuruuu and King Sun who joined last fortnight after Humiliating Skarmx2 team.
Hall of Fame Tally
4 Infernal
3 Matthewc20090, Random Passerby
2 Little Lucario, Bendiving, cfdba, FrozenCold, Sketch Up,
1 Team Pokepals, AM, Docter Ciel, Luaral, Flygoner818, Bludz, Gamer Boy, Ethanlol, Phantom Me, Soldier, Yuruuu, King Sun


So this post is not totally random

Core 6 and Core 4
 
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Can you guys put a criteria that's more in line with something practical. A lot of these cores are garbage (throughout the last several weeks of rounds) and in practice wouldn't work to begin with. I know it's break my team but come on lol the Manectric thing is now a gimmick and you can tell from afar these guys just assume things. Whether or not you do it don't care but like Mamo + Manectric is going to have tons of problems in the meta just to counterteam a single team for the purpose of the thread.
 
AM said:
Can you guys put a criteria that's more in line with something practical. A lot of these cores are garbage (throughout the last several weeks of rounds) and in practice wouldn't work to begin with. I know it's break my team but come on lol the Manectric thing is now a gimmick and you can tell from afar these guys just assume things. Whether or not you do it don't care but like Mamo + Manectric is going to have tons of problems in the meta just to counterteam a single team for the purpose of the thread.
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Yeah, I agree with this (as I am also guilty of doing this myself). When I nominated that core, I was just thinking - No Mamo switch-in except Scizor. Add Scizor-counter. I did this without thinking the problems this "core" brings to the team in the meta.

How do you propose to make it better? (genuine question since even VotW has people running gimmick mons to check / counter a threat)
 
Random Passerby said:
Yeah, I agree with this (as I am also guilty of doing this myself). When I nominated that core, I was just thinking - No Mamo switch-in except Scizor. Add Scizor-counter. I did this without thinking the problems this "core" brings to the team in the meta.

How do you propose to make it better? (genuine question since even VotW has people running gimmick mons to check / counter a threat)
Click to expand...
Think voting based projects as a whole are pretty bad for the OU forums because most people don't know or lack experience on what they're voting for and will just bandwagon w/e insert tour player or insert badgeholder votes for. Have to realize that half the people on the forums couldn't break a 1500 ELO mark on ladder so you get pretty low quality discussions and ideas that don't play out in practice. This issue occurs on a lot of voting based projects but yeah idk. Maybe a buddy system where two people can take turns using the team and the other person breaking it then discussing it, discussion like the research thread. For example.

Master Sunny-EX and AM paired up.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-372450504
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-362409115

Different players but let's assume you get the idea here.

I show like 3 replays of me using the team and he shows 3. Now he can be an absolute tryhard and just go "Bisharp, M-Scizor, and Toxicroak destroys the team hahahajajajajaj hnnng" but 1. It stops him from just pulling up a random core out of his ass that doesn't take into account how Tankchomp or defensive ground blows the core back. 2. It forces them to build a team around their supposed core to be viable against the metagame and against an actual player unlike imaginary Charizardboy999, hence the replays. That way it's more focused on discussion and we can also see how it plays out. You can ignore the necessity to nitpick whatever about the team and focus on the point that they tried to build with the meta-game as a whole into account, not the team by itself.

Let's say hypothetically the team I'm using is the one you have to break. M-Lati, Alakazam, Azumarill, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Lando-T. Or reverse it to break his dont really care. Hell if you wanted to you can just ask for a non terrible replay for the team to post at the start of the round so people can learn how it actually functions. You should set a criteria though that if they're gonna provide a replay that it's either above 1800 on ladder (yes above 1800) or something significant like getting high in a smogon tour ORAS OU week or a relatively important tournament match. This wouldn't include room tournaments btw those have died down in significance of anything showing something being good and normally it's your average ladder goons participating in those + the guy we know who will win by like round 3. I would make replays optional but if they're inclined to do so, like a tour dude, so be it. I just know when I read a post on VR and the guy is like "look at the replays putting in work" and it shows him beating Lances' in-game gold/silver team against JohtoSoldier623 at 1100, you just say to yourself wow and then forever brand he/she as a dummy.

4-5 days or w/e for testing 2-3 for discussion.

Like last week or something the boudouche offense and everyone just throwing Manectric. First off if you've ever faced that team against someone who isn't booty you'd realize really quickly that Manectric has about 0 opportunities to get itself going against the team. The only thing it can relatively do well from the get-go is Volt Switch on Azumarill and an Azumarill lead will never happen against a Manectric build. Against most Manectric builds it'll lead bunny, chomp, Bish, or gengar all dependent on what Manectric is paired up with. This is why this project is so bland cause every core is a theorymon more or less and you can tell sometimes a user will have no idea what they're talking about.

Have a list of discussion points for arguments and counter arguments if people want to discuss about a pair of peoples replays or refute something. Like for example someone who wants to state why that core isn't as effective as they make it out to be. Justify with the replays or another pair can use their own to show different compositions with the same core. I'm not a big fan of voting based projects as opposed to some of the more discussion focused projects that we've had come up more for quality reasons. So yes you can try some of those things out it's up to you.
 
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AM said:
Think voting based projects as a whole are pretty bad for the OU forums because most people don't know or lack experience on what they're voting for and will just bandwagon w/e insert tour player or insert badgeholder votes for. Have to realize that half the people on the forums couldn't break a 1500 ELO mark on ladder so you get pretty low quality discussions and ideas that don't play out in practice. This issue occurs on a lot of voting based projects but yeah idk. Maybe a buddy system where two people can take turns using the team and the other person breaking it then discussing it, discussion like the research thread. For example.

Master Sunny-EX and AM paired up.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-372450504
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-362409115

Different players but let's assume you get the idea here.

I show like 3 replays of me using the team and he shows 3. Now he can be an absolute tryhard and just go "Bisharp and Toxicroak destroys the team hahahajajajajaj hnnng" but 1. It stops him from just pulling up a random core out of his ass that doesn't take into account how Tankchomp or defensive ground blows the core back. 2. It forces them to build a team around their supposed core to be viable against the metagame and against an actual player unlike imaginary Charizardboy999, hence the replays. That way it's more focused on discussion and we can also see how it plays out. You can ignore the necessity to nitpick whatever about the team and focus on the point that they tried to build with the meta-game as a whole into account, not the team by itself.

Let's say hypothetically the team I'm using is the one you have to break. M-Lati, Alakazam, Azumarill, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Lando-T. Or reverse it to break his dont really care. Hell if you wanted to you can just ask for a non terrible replay for the team to post at the start of the round so people can learn how it actually functions. You should set a criteria though that if they're gonna provide a replay that it's either above 1800 on ladder (yes above 1800) or something significant like getting high in a smogon tour ORAS OU week or a relatively important tournament match. This wouldn't include room tournaments btw those have died down in significance of anything showing something being good and normally it's your average ladder goons participating in those + the guy we know who will win by like round 3. I would make replays optional but if they're inclined to do so, like a tour dude, so be it. I just know when I read a post on VR and the guy is like "look at the replays putting in work" and it shows him beating Lances' in-game gold/silver team against JohtoSoldier623 at 1100, you just say to yourself wow and then forever brand he/she as a dummy.

4-5 days or w/e for testing 2-3 for discussion.

Like last week or something the boudouche offense and everyone just throwing Manectric. First off if you've ever faced that team against someone who isn't booty you'd realize really quickly that Manectric has about 0 opportunities to get itself going against the team. The only thing it can relatively do well from the get-go is Volt Switch on Azumarill and an Azumarill lead will never happen against a Manectric build. Against most Manectric builds it'll lead bunny, chomp, Bish, or gengar all dependent on what Manectric is paired up with. This is why this project is so bland cause every core is a theorymon more or less and you can tell sometimes a user will have no idea what they're talking about.

Have a list of discussion points for arguments and counter arguments if people want to discuss about a pair of peoples replays or refute something. Like for example someone who wants to state why that core isn't as effective as they make it out to be. Justify with the replays or another pair can use their own to show different compositions with the same core. I'm not a big fan of voting based projects as opposed to some of the more discussion focused projects that we've had come up more for quality reasons. So yes you can try some of those things out it's up to you.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. Well-thought out and easy to follow reasoning.
Tagging Creator of Chaos to let him read this and we'll discuss which direction to take this thread to.
 
AM and @ Random Passerby The thread has been very successful (26 weeks we are talking), more then I imagined it would be so I dont want to change it overly drasticly but I do understand where you are coming from and I agree on atleast 2 things. That More Discussion needs to occur both on how the team works and how a said core breaks it in practice. I watched the Clef victim of the week thing and people were listing Heatran and ferro as counters when in practice both often lose to her for various reasons and its something I'm keen to avoid here. Secondly I agree the manetric thing has gotten beyond a joke and needs to stop. I've already considered Blacklisting it but I would rather avoid that as it goes against the nature of the thread.

All said tho I do want to retain even if modified the system of Posting core's and voting at the end of the Week. So I propose following
  • Break the week into 3 periods instead of the 2 now. Thursday and and friday are virtually dead anyway so we have room. Monday and Tuesday would be for Discussing the Team, Its weakness's and how it works in practice. People can post replays etc. Wednesday to Friday would then be for posting cores and Sat/Sun for Voting and explaining why you voted for the cores. If people explain why they voted for said core's Things will improve overtime
  • Better Quality Control from me and Random Passerby, Something I admit I've been lacking to do. Possibly add a 2nd Co-host from another Timezone to help with this as I work.
  • Improve the Posting Critrea. Replays for cores dont need to be mandatory but better explanations for how it works in practice. I'E Victini Force's Clef, Scizor out and blows holes in whatever switchs in instead of Victini 6-0s with random healing wisher.
All said I dont want to make things complicated like the reasearch thread. Part of this threads charm is its accessabilty but theres definate room for improvement.

Edit: Buddy System for testing seems good as well. Thoughts on that?
 
Me and Random Passerby have discussed things and a few changes will be implemented tonight when the new team is posted. There will be more detail then but the overall aim is to improve the quality of the thread while keeping things fun and Simple. The thread has been a success and I thank everyone for taking part so far but theres always room for improvement hence this excersise

Summary of the Change's coming
  • Break this team will now be 3 parts instead of 2. Discussion, Cores and then voting. This system will be trialed for the next 2 weeks to see how it fares. Further changes may happen or we may revert. I dont want this turning into research 2.0 as we already have a good research thread
  • The Discussion part is where we discuss how a team works in practice and what works against it be in mons or playstyles. People can test there cores/Teams in practice at this time before posting cores for nomination if they wish
  • Posting Standards will rise and by that I mean no more meme cores, Random mega + healing Wisher or 2 sentence paragraphs outside of times when I post my own teams for humiliation. Im not asking for replays or Essays but posted cores have to actually be viable in the meta and how the core would play vs said team and if your posting something more unusual or niche just make sure you can back it.
  • Sobi will be joining me and Random Passerby as a Co-host. I've left open the possibility of a 4th but its unlikely at this time

More details Tonight When the OP is Updated and the new team is posted. If you still haven't voted on the last core now is the time to do so
 
The Buddy system sounds like an awesome suggestion, and probably will help both players get better/encourage involvement in the community; and honestly the more people to test/point out flaws in a team the better, especially in ORAS where overlooking weaknesses/matchups is all too easy.
 
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