1. The moderators of this forum are DougJustDoug, Deck Knight, Birkal, cbrevan, DHR-107, HeaLnDeaL, jas61292, Quanyails, and reachzero.
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  3. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

CAP Updates: Cyclohm Discussion (Updated Movepool Submissions) (see Page 2, Post 45)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by snake_rattler, May 18, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mova

    Mova

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,463
    Explosion has been mostly useless outside of Glalie-Mega and Golem-Alola's converted Ice and Electric STABs, so Damp is a tasty way to demonstrate Cyclohm's cloudy body. Hydration and Rain Dish are too useful on rain teams to even be considered.
  2. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,103
    I agree that Damp is the strongest candidate for its hidden ability.
  3. Reviloja753

    Reviloja753

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,100
    So I would like to give my two cents on Overcoat, as it is one of the more popular abilities. I feel like people are underselling the competitive value of it. It mostly changes the matchup against sand teams, and more specifically against Colossoil. Guts beats Cyclohm anyways, but AV Colo cannot OHKO Cyclohm without Sandstorm.

    252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cyclohm: 300-354 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

    With AV, Colo is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. As Cyclohm outspeeds AV Colo, the only way it can guarantee an OHKO is with Sandstorm EQ. Yea, Sucker Punch is a thing, but the opponent can easily run Wish Support on something like Kerfluffle and is extremely predictable. You can easily predict the Sucker Punch and switch out into something with Wish Support to heal Cyclohm back up again.

    252 SpA Choice Specs Cyclohm Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 218-258 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    All in all, while Overcoat is nowhere nearly as competitive as say, Drizzle, it still has the opportunity to change up its matchup with AV Colo, which while small, is competitive enough to get my thumbs down.
  4. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,195
    These abilities are approved as of now (meaning they make little-to-no competitive impact):

    Damp
    Overcoat
    Plus / Minus
    Unnerve
    Water Veil


    These abilities will be put on the blacklist.

    Cloud Nine will be placed on a blacklist that will be found on the OP. Because Cloud Nine unnecessarily affects match ups with weather-based teams, and more notably Mega Charizard Y, it is too competitive for a flavor ability.

    Hydration and Rain Dish help Cyclohm be a better Rain abuser and Rain check, so they'll be going on the blacklist for now.

    Pressure is too good on a Pokemon with such good bulk.


    Consider this post to be your 24 hour warning. Continue discussing the following approved abilities' competitive merit (if you they're too good) and flavor merit, or propose new abilities.

    EDIT: This is Cyclohm's Final Submission Art post. It's called a "thundercloud hydra" throughout the thread. Take what you will from the official art because the details were never finished...
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  5. Reviloja753

    Reviloja753

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,100
    Okay, so I would like to give my brief thoughts on each legal ability and list them in how I would vote for them if they all went to poll.

    Damp (Obvious. See my OP for reasons)
    Unnerve (Not only is thunder scary imo, but those faces in the art sub are MAAAAAAD)
    Plus / Minus (Flavor is fine, but it's a cop-out.)
    Overcoat (A little too competitive imo, and also is a little off flavor-wise, as clouds are usually portrayed as soft and light. Sand or Hail could break through it easy.)
    Water Veil (My least favorite ability. Water Veil to me implies something like Aqua Ring. I don't see that being on Cyclohm.)
  6. Martin890

    Martin890

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    145
    At this point I'm just torn between Damp and Overcoat. Overcoat has a somewhat competitive aspect, but it's just to good flavor wise. And Damp also makes to much sense.

    So if you REALLY want a ability with no comp aspect, yeah I'm in full support for Damp.
  7. Quanyails

    Quanyails
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    990
    Reviloja753:

    The accepted reasoning for Cyclohm's weight is literally (Driftblim + Salamence) / 2. Everything else about the cloud being water vs. cotton or wool is not canon. It's as canon as me imagining that Cyclohm is a Mareep- or Altaria-style Pokemon. ;)

    I'm not convinced that the Overcoat calculation given is plausible in ORAS CAP. When was the last time you've seen a Colossoil in a sandstorm instead of hazards wearing Cyclohm down? I'd say it's more relevant to say that it allows Cyclohm to more comfortably switch into Necturna, Amoonguss, or Mega Venusaur if they carry a spore-type move. Necturna rarely uses its Sketch move for Spore, though, and Amoonguss/Mega Venusaur are barely used. Its other abilities are much less situational.
  8. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,195
    Damp
    Overcoat
    Minus
    Plus
    Unnerve
    Water Veil

    No New Hidden Ability


    This will be a slate for a poll, which will be starting shortly.
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  9. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,195
    While the Hidden Ability poll is going, let's not waste any time on this update. Let's talk about moves! Cyclohm might have gotten access to some nifty flavor moves or actual competitive moves since Generation 4. We need to decide which moves these are, and if the flavor reasoning or consistency merit are enough to justify adding it to Cyclohm's movepool.

    1. Are there any moves from Generations 5 - 7 that Cyclohm should have access to based off of typing, design, etc.?
    2. How big of a competitive impact do they make? Why should Cyclohm gain access to this move?


    Please suggest new moves in moveset format if they are at all competitive, so we can better see how viable they are. Give a small explanation of the set to justify its viability. Relevant calcs strengthen your argument.

    Movepool submissions will open in about 48 hours. Please start thinking about them now so that we can minimize the time taken for actual submissions. While move deletions are frowned upon, reordering moves is allowed - make Cyclohm look like a Pokemon you could find in Generation 7. Remember, do not submit full movepools until I say so. For now, answer the questions so we can narrow down what new moves Cyclohm should have access to.
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  10. Reviloja753

    Reviloja753

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,100
    GEN V​

    To start off, Electroweb is seen on a lot of electric types, so it is consistency.

    Soak makes sense with flavor, as it is a thundercloud, and thusly soaks things with rain too.

    Volt Switch is consistency on Cyclohm like it is on Krilo. Sets will be at the end.

    Hurricane makes sense, since Cyclohm is a thundercloud. Again, sets will be at the end.

    GEN VI / VII
    Electric Terrain is self-explanatory.

    Zing Zap makes sense, as the description for the move states that electricity strikes downwards, fitting in with the thundercloud motif.

    I like Brutal Swing because I can see Cyclohm swinging its heads violently.

    Sets:

    Physically Defensive 2.0

    Cyclohm @ Leftovers
    Ability: Static / Shield Dust
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Volt Switch / Discharge / Thunderbolt
    - Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    - Slack Off
    - Toxic / Whirlwind / Heal Bell

    This set is an improved version of the current physically defensive set. Volt Switch is your best choice for STAB, as it lets you pivot out if need-be. Thunderbolt can be run if you want raw power, and Discharge is your go-to if you aren't running Toxic.

    Offensive 2.0

    Cyclohm @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
    Ability: Shield Dust / Static
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid / Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
    - Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
    - Hydro Pump
    - Fire Blast / Hurricane / Ice Beam

    This set improves on the current offensive set. Thunderbolt is your go-to STAB, but if you are running a choice item, Volt Switch might be better. Draco and Dragon Pulse is a choice between power and how much you can spam it. Hydro pump remains the same. For your other coverage, Hurricane is best used if you want to handle bulky grass types better, while Ice Beam takes care of bulky Grounds that are neutral to Hydro Pump.

    252 SpA Choice Specs Cyclohm Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak: 350-414 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  11. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 ^_^
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,171
    I'm just going to consider aesthetics, k? So I really don't mind if people mention that these are borked or whatnot.

    Gen4- (open)
    - Swagger. It's a universal TM that was on the original movepool, but removed w/o explaination. Seriously. Put it back.
    Gen5 (open)
    - Dragon Tail (It's a Dragon.)
    - Electroweb (Given)
    - Volt Switch (Also type-based, I'll leave it to people who actually play to discuss the competitive aspects)
    - Incinerate (See fellow three-headed-dragon Hydreigon)
    - Hurricane (It's a storm cloud. Again, I assume debate will ensure.)
    - Bulldoze (It gets EQ, seems logical)
    - Round (Universal)
    - Magic Room (It gets Trick Room, this seems a sound extension)
    - Wonder Room (As above)
    Gen6 (open)
    - Eerie Impulse (Lots of Elec + Static mons get this)
    - Electric Terrain (As above, albeit less so)
    - Ion Deluge (Mega Ampharos grabs it, most notably, 'elec type with fluff' seems to be the main qualifier here)
    - Magnetic Flux (Hey look more Electric flavour moves)
    - Confide (Universal)


    Not spotted anything worth adding from Gen7. Don't like Zing Zap since it's a Togedemaru Sig Move, but if competitive people want it then I won't complain.

    edit @ below: I can go either way on Hurricane, but I prefer having it to not. Agreed on No to Brutal Swing. Agreed to Yes on Wild Charge and Cotton Guard, but that might depend on if we get Overcoat or how people see the cloud.

    Disagree on Electroweb - Magnezone, Electivire, and the Ampharos lines are all notable (Especially, imo, Amphy)
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  12. Quanyails

    Quanyails
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    990
    A few thoughts in response to the above posts:

    Volt Switch is definitely the point of discussion among competitive moves. I say that Cyclohm should get it, as Volt Switch supports Cyclohm's role as a tank or wall and it offers pros and cons over the alternative Electric-type moves it would use on its sets. That being said, however, I'd like to hear from people who are more experienced with using Cyclohm competitively.

    No to Hurricane. Cyclohm's only Flying-type move is Aerial Ace, which is found on many other Pokemon that lack other Flying-type options. The only Pokemon that receive Hurricane naturally are Pokemon that can fly, and Cyclohm can't fly. Cyclohm also doesn't get moves like Gust or Air Slash. Twister and Whirlwind do imply winds, but there are Pokemon like Kingdra and Munchlax that get those moves that don't get Hurricane. And besides, storm clouds are not hurricanes. :u

    Swagger, Round, and Confide are universal. Bulldoze correlates with Earthquake. Plenty of dragons get Incinerate, and Cyclohm already gets stronger Fire-type moves.

    A weak 'no' to Brutal Swing. Hydreigon has the advantage of being able to levitate and use its spare heads and limbs to swing around. Cyclohm needs all of its feet on the ground and it has three 'equal' heads. Fellow three-headed Pokemon Dodrio doesn't get Brutal Swing.

    I'll give a weak 'yes' to Dragon Tail. Cyclohm already has Whirlwind, and lots of tailed Pokemon get Dragon Tail. There are a few dragons like Altaria and Noivern that don't get it, so it could go either way depending on how sturdy Cyclohm's tail is.

    I can see Cyclohm getting Electric Terrain/Eerie Impulse/Magnetic Flux/Ion Deluge, since thunderclouds do have that atmosphere about them. I particularly like Ion Deluge, since its Japanese name is Plasma Shower, and... that's pretty much what a thunderstorm is. :P

    No to Electroweb. More Bug-type Pokemon get it than Electric-type Pokemon. Zekrom, Raikou, and a slew of other Electric-type Pokemon don't get it. I can't really see Cyclohm creating a web.

    Wild Charge is found on many Electric-type Pokemon and won't be used with Cyclohm's lower Attack stat.

    Cotton Guard is very flavorful on Cyclohm, and I don't think Cyclohm would use a moveslot for it, even if it is tanky on the physical side.

    Edit: More thoughts and corrections.
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  13. Broken Phobias

    Broken Phobias

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    468
    List of moves Cyclohm should get IMO (open)

    Incinerate
    Swagger
    *Volt Switch
    Cotton Guard
    Ion Deluge
    Electric Terrain
    Dragon Tail
    Bounce
    Spark
    *Soak
    Hail
    Ominous Wind
    *Hurricane
    *Wish
    Stockpile
    Swallow
    Spit Up



    So most of the moves in there are Flavor but some have some Juicy competitiveness. Please take some of my movesets with a grain of salt. I am not real good with making them without testing them first. Let's check some out!

    Rain dance Lord
    Cyclohm @ Damp Rock / Life orb / Leftovers
    Ability: Shield Dust / Static
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid / Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt / Volt Switch / Thunder
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump / Slack Off
    - Hurricane

    This set I believe is kind of crazy when you think about it. It would hit decently hard and would be very hard to extinguish because of Slack Off and or Leftovers depending on what way you want to swing.

    Tangrowth But without Regen (needs wish Support to be better than tangrowth)
    Cyclohm @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt / Discharge / Flamethrower / Fire Blast
    - Hurricane
    - Ice Beam / Hydro Pump

    Okay so unfortunately this set is a little wonky because I don't really see many people actually using this for anything. Tangrowth is by far the better option because it isn't weak to Fairy but I feel this set will have its niche as it is.

    In Memory of our Dear friend Pepsi Plunge
    Cyclohm @ Leftovers / Life Orb
    Ability: Static / Shield Dust
    EVs: 68 HP / 252 Def / 188 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Soak
    - Thunderbolt
    - Slack Off
    - Draco Meteor / Volt Switch

    Soak allows Cyclohm scare some Pokemon into switching out. This set seems more like a gimmick though in my eyes. I just felt soak had to be covered as it does have some competitive merit to it.

    Mr. Cleric
    Cyclohm @ Leftovers
    Ability: Static / Shield Dust
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Wish
    - Volt Switch
    - Heal Bell
    - Protect

    This set to me seems like a golden opportunity for Stall and Bulky Offence. It is able to Wish or Heal Bell up and make a slow Volt Switch out. It makes it an Interesting set to use On Cyclohm as it particularly doesn't like SpA moves like most Clerics do.
  14. Cresselia92

    Cresselia92 formerly Darklatias92

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    413
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG]

    These guys would like a word with you: they can't Fly, summon Gusts or Slash the Air (even though Shiftry can learn Razor Wind instead). As such, Cyclohm eventually getting Hurricane wouldn't be too farfetched.

    Besides, considering that clouds and winds are usually connected, having Cyclohm summoning stormy winds to produce an hurricane would fit it pretty well.

    I agree with the rest of the post, though.
  15. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,195
    How could you forget our favorite bird on your list? [​IMG]

    I'm going to stop this set right here. Wish isn't suggested by Cyclohm's typing or design, and it changes the way Cyclohm plays too drastically, introducing a new element to its repertoire.

    Volt Switch and Hurricane need the most discussion in terms of competitive moves. While Hurricane has reasonable flavor and Volt Switch has great consistency factor, their competitive aspects need to be discussed.

    Cotton Guard is also catching my eye as competitive. Do we allow this move or not?

    Please discuss these moves' competitive merit before I open movepool discussion. Discuss other moves as usual, and refer to the questions in Post #34.
  16. Okamu

    Okamu
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    183
    So, I want to talk about Hurricane and Question 2. So far, the sets that involve Hurricane have put it as a slashed coverage move, wonky set, or used to abuse rain. For this, I have to ask, what really is the reason for adding Hurricane? It was suggested as flavorful because ohmagod thunder cloud!!! but, when looking at the movepool, as has been previously noted in this thread, there is no precedent for Cyclohm to learn such a strong flying type move. Not only that, but here's a quick quote from lightningsafety.com: Normally hurricanes do not have lightning and thunder because lightning and thunder are formed by vertical winds that cause water and ice to rub together. Honestly, when you do a bit of research, Hurricane only makes less and less flavor sense. As for the rain reasoning, Cyclohm was not originally intended to be a rain abuser, but instead to focus on its abilities. Neither of its abilities deal with rain, so I question how this line of thinking isn't just extraneously introducing new sets to a mon that already functions quite well.

    As for this argument... just... uh... Gyarados is a flying type and is based off of a sea monster and sea storms, like hurricanes, so there's precedent for windstorm (Hurricane's Japanese name) moves in its movepool. Moving on to Castform, the other easy one. It's associated with many types of unrelated weather, so throwing Hurricane in isn't much of an issue, especially with the precedence of moves like Icy Wind, Ominous Wind, and Tailwind. Lastly, lets come to the misunderstanding of Shiftry, which is based on the Japanese tengu. Tengu are yokai associated with wind and natural disasters. Thematically, based on its origin in mythos, it should be learning Hurricane. Overall, the Pokémon here don't make any less sense than the others on the list due to their origins and overall design. Cyclohm on the other hand is based on a lightning storm cloud, which is NOT PRESENT during the vast majority of hurricanes. There just isn't a flavor basis for this, and I don't see any suggested competitive reasoning for it. To me, this really just looks like adding for the sake of adding, and I don't support it in the slightest.

    I'm not going to comment on Volt Switch, since I don't really play with Volt-Turn styles, hence I don't have the experience to really make an informed statement.

    As for Cotton Guard, I'm honestly on the fence. There hasn't been any real discussion on it, but the move really only serves to give Cyclohm another physical wall set, which brings us to the real question here: would any set that uses Cotton Guard be sufficiently relevant (or irrelevant enough?) to merit adding it overall?
  17. Wenderz

    Wenderz

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Messages:
    155
    I think that Soak have some competitive value, especially with Volt Switch since it inflicts some cheap damage to the opponent's switch-in after his Cyclohm's check is soaked,which some something that Soak Necturna can only dream of, Cyclohm also has a very wide coverage move pool to punish the switch-ins. But speaking of coverage, do you really want to lose a precious offensive move or Slack Off (on offensive sets) despite the fact that you can already hit everything at least neutrally? Soak allows you to deal more damage to some defensive Mons which doesn't fear your coverage option like Chansey, Clefable or Gastrodon (the former still wins easily though). It does have some use against potential switch-in like Kyurem-B, Colossoil, Lando-T and other threats, even though they lose their STAB and become weak to Electric, they're still faster and can inflict a lot of damage.

    It seems that using Soak allows you to touch everything super effectively, in cost of losing a coverage option. Soak your opponent and then inflict takes two turn while hitting him with a SI attack takes one, hitting him with a neutrally Thunderbolt is the same than Soak him and hit him once, but you remove his STAB and take only 10% from the potential LO recoil instead of 20% in doing so. Overall, Soak does have some merits, but I think its healthy enough to add it.


    I don't have an opinion on Hurricane's flavorful aspect, It allows to deal with Venusaur more easily, but his other coverage options hasn't a bad accuracy and hit more things in general. It can be used as a Substitute to Fire Blast in rain, somewhere Cyclohm is very good, but the loss of Fire Blast makes you significantely easier to handle for Ferrothorn and not being able to do enough damage to the likes of Jirachi, Magearna and Cawmodore outside of rain really hurts. Therefore I don't see any problem with adding Hurricane, competitively speaking.

    Cotton Guard can be useful if you don't want to risk a mind game against a potentially incoming Ground Type that you would wall easily at +3, but again, the loss of a coverage option is a really bad thing: without Ice, SD Lando-T and Zygarde can use you as a set-up fodder, the same applies to Fire Blast against Spike Ferrothorn and SD Scizor; however, Cawmodore is handled even easier. You're still defenseless on the special side too, so I don't think Cotton Guard would be unhealthy.

    Dragon Tail is weak, can miss and fairies laugh at it, so no problem with it.

    Wish is nice but again the 4MSS is there, but I would like to understand which is the flavorful value.

    Finally, I don't have a strong opinion on Volt Switch in competitive yet, but since Krilowatt get it and the fact that Cyclohm was born in gen 4 when Volt Switch didn't exist yet, I think it should be added, but I'll developp later maybe.

    Also, the ban of M-Gross dreceases slightly the viability of Cyclohm in my opinion, therefore I think we shouldn't be too afraid of giving him some potentially competitive moves.

    I suggest the add of Magic Room and Wonder Room because Clohm already learns Trick Room.
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  18. HeaLnDeaL

    HeaLnDeaL Reluctantly Having Fun
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,239
    I just want to say no, no, no, positively no on Cotton Guard. The post above mine argues that Cotton Guard is hard to put onto an actual moveset. I disagree.

    Standard physically defensive Clohm runs Electric-Stab/Fire-Coverage/Slack Off/Filler. Filler ranges from extra coverage (Draco Meteor or Ice Beam, maybe water coverage if used on a rain team) to utility (notably, Heal Bell, Whirlwind, Thunder Wave, Toxic, or even the rarer Light Screen). It has been proven time and time again that Cyclohm can get away without having the Filler Slot be taken up with coverage and the utility options are effective in their own right. I also think that, since Cyclohm is a mon that doesn't terribly miss a third attacking move, it can very easily run Cotton Guard to extraordinary effect. He's already a physically defensive powerhouse, Cotton Guard makes him into a potential god. Other defensive gods like Slowbro-Mega have run defense boosting moves as well to good competitive effect and I see Cotton Guard as having clear competitive repercussions on Cyclohm.

    Beyond competitive reasons, I think the flavor is pretty bad. Damp just won the ability poll, so I think there's precedent in treating Cyclohm's clouds as more literal clouds/water vapor than a hunk of cotton on its back. It personally makes no sense to me why people would interpret its clouds as wool and so I don't see how it can flavorfully learn Cotton Guard.
  19. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,103
    Altaria has cloud wings and learns Cotton Guard.

    But I do agree with HLnDL, as Cotton Guard can be ran on any defensive set and easily allow it to hardstop almost any physical threat.

    On the thought of Volt Switch, I have used Cyclothm enough to know how much switches it forces, and Volt Switch would make it quite solid. Does this mean its too competitive? Not necessaringly. Running Volt Switch probably means its forgoing Discharge, which has a ton of utility on it for spreading paralysis.

    Case in point, Volt Switch is a great addition on Cyclothm with big competitive impact.

    Also no to Eoectric Terrain! Clouds don't form on the ground (screw fog)!
  20. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,195
    Alright from here on out Movepool Submissions are open! Cyclohm's movepool can be found here. Note that it's Level Up movepool is kind of all over the place, so I'm always up to see some creative interpretation. However, while I'm ok with moving around moves, please preserve the existing flavor in the movepool and don't be too excessive with adding moves. Removing moves entirely is not allowed.

    As for the blacklist, Hurricane and Cotton Guard will be added. Hurricane, while actually not so flavorful (thanks for the science lesson Okamu!), is definitely competitive and gives Cyclohm a new, powerful coverage type. Cotton Guard, excellently explained by HeaL, lets Cyclohm tank way more hits without too much opportunity cost.

    Volt Switch is required in any new submission, as it didn't receive much opposition in the thread and most Electric-types get it.

    Every other move in the thread is allowed, but not required. Other moves can be added, but I will deny any move that's too competitive.

    Blacklist: Hurricane / Cotton Guard / Wish / Magnet Rise
    Required: Volt Switch

    Movepool submissions will be open for 72 hours (with 24 hours extension if people need it, but I don't want to use it) to keep this thread rolling along.
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  21. sparktrain

    sparktrain
    is a member of the Site Staffis a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,988
    Final Submission

    Level Up Moves (open)
    - Electric Terrain
    - Whirlwind
    - Bide
    - Tackle
    - Growl
    7 Twister
    11 Charge
    11 Thunder Shock
    16 Sonic Boom
    20 Double Hit
    24 Dragon Rage
    29 Dragon Breath
    33 Discharge
    37 Rain Dance
    42 Weather Ball
    48 Slack Off
    53 Thrash
    59 Lock-On
    59 Zap Cannon
    65 Thunder

    Evolution: Tri Attack
    I switched around Cyclohm's level up movepool quite a bit. Twister, Dragon Breath, and Thunder were added to the mix and are already learned by some other method. Tri Attack was switched to be Cyclohm's evolution move. Electric Terrain was added as a Heart Scale move; we've theorized that Cyclohm is able to set up Trick Room by utilizing electricity/magnetism, so I think it'd also be capable of electrifying the battlefield's terrain. Weather Ball was added after Rain Dance to give Cyclohm a flavorful method of using weather to its advantage. It's a borderline useful move competitively, but it lacks the reliability of Flamethrower, Surf, and Ice Beam which don't require weather to function properly, it's outdamaged by stronger variants of these moves, and Cyclohm lacks the Speed/ability to be a truly effective weather sweeper.

    TM Moves (open)
    TM02 Dragon Claw
    TM03 Water Pulse
    TM05 Roar
    TM06 Toxic
    TM07 Hail
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM13 Ice Beam
    TM14 Blizzard
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM21 Frustration
    TM24 Thunderbolt
    TM25 Thunder
    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM37 Sandstorm
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM40 Aerial Ace
    TM41 Torment
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM57 Charge Beam
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM72 Volt Switch
    TM73 Thunder Wave
    TM78 Bulldoze
    TM82 Dragon Tail
    TM87 Swagger

    TM90 Substitute
    TM92 Trick Room
    TM93 Wild Charge
    TM94 Surf
    TM96 Nature Power
    TM98 Waterfall
    TM100 Confide
    Volt Switch and Wild Charge are nearly universal on Electric-types, so they were added (Volt Switch is also required). Swagger, Confide, and Round are universal. Surf and Waterfall are former HMs. Bulldoze was added due to high move-move correlation with Earthquake. Dragon Tail was added because dragons with tails tend to get the move. Nature Power was added due to Cyclohm's ties with weather.

    Tutor Moves (open)
    Aqua Tail
    Draco Meteor
    Dragon Pulse
    Electroweb

    Headbutt
    Icy Wind
    Iron Tail

    Mud-Slap
    Outrage
    Shock Wave
    Signal Beam
    Sleep Talk
    Snore
    Swift
    Twister
    Water Pulse
    Aqua Tail: "The user attacks by swinging its tail as if it were a vicious wave in a raging storm." Cyclohm is a raging storm, and it has a tail. Electroweb is a fairly common tutor move for Electric-types. Icy Wind was added because we know Cyclohm is capable of whipping up whirlwinds and shooting beams of ice, so it should be able to make use of this technique. Iron Tail because tail. Dragon Pulse, Shock Wave, Sleep Talk, and Water Pulse are all former TM moves.

    Egg Moves (open)
    Dragon Breath
    Heal Bell
    Hydro Pump
    Mud-Slap
    Powder Snow
    Power Gem
    Just one simple addition of Powder Snow. You can breed it with an Aurorus. Cyclohm can be a big scary storm cloud, but it's also cute af, so it can be a puffy lil snow cloud too :3

    Transfer Only Moves (open)
    Captivate
    Endure
    Flash
    Hone Claws (Gen 5/6 TM)
    Incinerate (Gen 5/6 TM)

    Natural Gift
    Secret Power
    Strength
    Hone Claws was added as a past gen TM because virtually all dragons that learn Dragon Claw were able to learn Hone Claws by TM. It's not useful competitively because Cyclohm has the same attacking stat as Spearow. Incinerate was added as a past gen TM because dragons with Fire-type moves tend to get Incinerate as well. All of Cyclohm's other Gen 4 TMs/HMs that lost their TM/HM status are found here.

    Summary of Additions and Changes (open)
    - Electric Terrain and Weather Ball added to level up moves.
    - Bulldoze, Confide, Dragon Tail, Nature Power, Round, Swagger, Volt Switch, and Wild Charge added to TMs.
    - Aqua Tail, Electroweb, Icy Wind, and Iron Tail added as tutor moves.
    - Powder Snow added to egg moves.
    - Hone Claws and Incinerate added as transfer moves.

    - Twister, Dragon Breath, and Thunder can now be learned by level up.
    - Former HMs Surf and Waterfall are now TMs.
    - Former TMs Dragon Pulse, Shock Wave, Sleep Talk, and Water Pulse are now tutor moves.
    - Captivate, Endure, Flash, Natural Gift, Secret Power, and Strength are now transfer moves.
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  22. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,103
    Final Submission

    Level Up (open)

    Key: Bold = New Move
    Italics = Move already learnt but now in movepool

    0 Whirlwind
    0 Tackle
    0 Growl
    0 Bide
    0 Weather Ball
    Evo: Tri Attack
    1 Ion Deluge
    1 Double Hit
    5 Dragon Rage
    9 Charge
    14 Thundershock
    18 Twister
    22 Rain Dance
    27 Electro Ball
    31 Discharge
    35 Sonic Boom
    40 Slack Off
    44 Thrash
    48 Thunder
    53 Lock On
    57 Zap Cannon
    61 Outrage




    So I fixed its level up pattern to a strict 4-4-5 pattern. I firstly made Tri Attack its evolution move. Weather Ball is added as a Heart Scale move, as it is a raging storm cloud. Then I added Ion Deluge as a level one attack, as how most mons learn it and it fits so much flavourwise. The reason I moved Double Hit to level one is to signify that that is its previous's forms evolution move, so it woudn't be in regular level up slots. It disturbed me very much that Cyclothm doesn't learn any damage dealing Dragon type attacks other than the fixed damage Dragon Rage, so Twister was added earlier while Outrage was added as its last level up move. I gave it Electro Ball because thinking of Cyclothm struck me with the Ball Lightning phenomenon. Then I added Thunder, as a thunderstorm Pokémon not learning thunder is criminal.

    Note how Discharge is followed by Sonic Boom instead of vice versa, exactly how it happens with real life thunderstorms (Lightning is a discharge of a thundercloud's negative charge, while thunder is a massive sonic boom that happens when the cloud particles expand from the lightning at supersonic speeds.)

    TM List (open)

    TM02 Dragon Claw
    TM03 Water Pulse
    TM05 Roar
    TM06 Toxic
    TM07 Hail
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM13 Ice Beam
    TM14 Blizzard
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM21 Frustration
    TM24 Thunderbolt
    TM25 Thunder
    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM37 Sandstorm
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM40 Aerial Ace
    TM41 Torment
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM57 Charge Beam
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM72 Volt Switch
    TM73 Thunder Wave
    TM78 Bulldoze
    TM82 Dragon Tail
    TM87 Swagger

    TM88 Sleep Talk
    TM90 Substitute
    TM92 Trick Room
    TM93 Wild Charge
    TM94 Surf
    TM96 Nature Power
    TM100 Confide



    Added Volt Switch and Confide as they are mandatory. Swagger is a universal TM so it was added as well. It learns Fire Blast and Flamethrower, so Incinerate was out of the question, as plenty dragons learn it as well. Bulldoze accompanies Earthquake everytime. Dragon Tail is literally self explainitory. Wild Charge makes sense with one lock at its concept art, and it fits with thunderstorms' nature. Thunderstorms are a force if nature, so Natural Power seemed like a good fit. Surf is a TM now and Sleep Talk changed numbers, so this is reflected.

    Move Tutors (open)

    Aqua Tail
    Draco Meteor
    Dragon Pulse
    Electroweb
    Hyper Voice
    Icy Wind
    Iron Tail

    Outrage
    Shock Wave
    Signal Beam
    Sleep Talk
    Snore
    Water Pulse
    Zen Headbutt



    Aqua Tail and Water Pulse corrolates with the rain that accompanies storms. Icy Wind is also another hint at storms, specifically thunderstorms in northern areas. Iron Tail is a common tutor, Shock Wave and Electroweb are also common on Electric types. Zen Headbutt was on its movepool prior to movepool restrictions, and now that those have been removed, it should return. Thunder is a deafening sound, so Boomburst Hyper Voice is very fitting.

    Egg Moves (open)

    Egg Groups: Dragon, Monster

    Dragon Pulse (Ampharos, Dratini, Gible)
    Dragon Breath
    Eerie Impulse (Heliolisk)
    Electric Terrain (Mareep)
    Heal Bell
    Hydro Pump
    Ion Deluge (Cyclothm, Mareep)
    Mud-Slap
    Power Gem


    Dropped Eerie Impulse as it seemed rather fitting for Cyclothm and added Ion Deluge as an Egg Move as well. I wanted Cyclothm to have access to Dragon Pulse from this generation, so I dropped it in Egg Moves. Electric Terrain seems rather fitting on Clothm as well.

    Transfers (open)

    Captivate (Gen 5/6 TM)
    Endure
    Flash
    Headbutt
    Natural Gift (Gen 5/6 TM)
    Mud-Slap
    Secret Power (ORAS TM)
    Strength (Gen 4-6 HM)
    Swift
    Twister
    Work Up (Gen 5/6 TM)


    Cyclothm seems so angry it works itself up into storm.....
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  23. Menshay

    Menshay
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    376
    A quick question about some widespread moves which were not included in Cyclohm's current movepool despite being available at the time:
    - Magnet Rise is very widespread - in fact, almost universal - among Electric-types (see also the Plasmanta discussion).
    - Iron Tail is pretty much universal among tailed Pokémon.

    Are they allowed?

    (As an added note, I do not feel Electric Terrain is unfitting on Cyclohm. Yes, it is a cloud dragon, but it is not a floating cloud dragon.)
  24. Garbagery

    Garbagery

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2016
    Messages:
    205
    -Magnet Rise would basically become almost mandatory on every defensive clohm, so it's probably too broke. Plus it doesn't even have magnets.
    it stops av colosoil from 2hkoing as it floats up.
    - Iron tail is nice tho
  25. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,195
    If you think Iron Tail is appropriate with Cyclohm's design, then go for it.
    Magnet Rise will be disallowed due to Cyclohm's ability to tank an Earthquake and access to reliable recovery. Eerie Impulse can shred any special attacker's attacking stat and force it out. This isn't necessary on Cyclohm, especially when it forces out physical attackers and can use it on switch-ins very easily. It also has the filler slot on its defensive sets. Both of these moves will be added to the blacklist, unless there is significant evidence that either of these are not broken.

    EDIT: I'm stupid. Cyclohm has access to Light Screen. Eerie Impulse is allowed, but Magnet Rise is not.

    Movepools look good so far guys, keep it up!
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)