CAP Updates: Krilowatt Discussion (Complete)

[boxofkangaroos]

Krilowatt Update Discussion​

Welcome everybody to the update discussion for CAP 10, Krilowatt! This starts the second round of updates, which means we will be dipping down into some updates that are slightly lower-priority but equally as important as the first round. Krilowatt was one of the last CAP creations of Generation 4, so this process will be overseen by my trusty sidekick Deck Knight.

Krilowatt's concept was "Utility Counter" (see below), meaning it would be a Pokemon that has the tools in its movepool to counter a wide variety of threats, but it would be unable to counter a large number of Pokemon at the same time. Think of it as a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter certain threats based on its team's needs. There was no particular direction determined by Krilowatt's Concept Assessment thread, so the general plan ended up being "give Krilowatt lots of good coverage moves so that it can beat lots of things". The rest of the process followed, rewarding Krilowatt with two potentially great abilities, a good offensive typing, a fantastic movepool, and a balanced stat spread that gave it a niche offensively and defensively. Ultimately, Krilowatt just had a lot of nice things going for it.

Utility Counter

Name: Utility Counter

General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.

Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
• Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
• How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
• Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

That takes us to today. Where is Krilowatt at in the current meta? Has it lived up to its concept? Well, a Utility Counter was meant to have a variety of viable sets, and to be customizable in order to take on specific team weaknesses. It was meant to be able to counter a wide variety of Pokemon, but not all at the same time. Now if we take a look at Krilowatt's analysis, how many viable sets does it have? That's right, a grand total of 1. According to the most recent usage stats, nearly 80% of Krilowatt run the same four offensive moves with a Life Orb. Krilowatt is rarely ever customized to fit its team's needs because LO 4 Attacks is the only set it can ever really afford to run. Krilowatt's concept says it should be "incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time". Does that hold true whatsoever? Let's take a look at some of the most-used Pokemon in Gen 7 CAP, and let's see how many of them are hit super-effectively by LO 4 Attacks Krilowatt:

1. Tomohawk (Thunderbolt)
2. Colossoil (Surf)
3. Mega Crucibelle (Earth Power)
4. Cawmodore
5. Volkraken (Thunderbolt)
6. Aurumoth
7. Mega Metagross (Earth Power)
8. Cyclohm (Ice Beam)
9. Stratagem (Surf)
10. Tapu Lele

Even though this is a small sample size, it is very clear that Krilowatt can counter a huge group of Pokemon using just four moves. And many of the ones Krilowatt cannot hit super-effectively, it can easily 2HKO with one of its Life Orb-boosted STABs. Essentially, Krilowatt has achieved the complete opposite of its concept, being able to counter a large number of Pokemon at the same time without customizing its set for its team. And that's not all it has in its favor – Magic Guard allows Krilowatt to function very nicely defensively, preventing Life Orb recoil from whittling it down, granting it immunity to Stealth Rock, and allowing it to function as a status absorber.

Now, not everything is fun and games for Krilowatt. First of all, its LO 4 Attacks set is walled by Pokemon such as Chansey, Ferrothorn, and Pyroak, and Krilowatt has no way of pivoting away from them. Krilowatt's awkward speed tier leaves it outsped by offensive threats such as Latios, Tapu Koko, Dugtrio, and Mega Metagross, among many others, most of which can easily OHKO or 2HKO it. Finally, Krilowatt has a crippling weakness to Ground, which is especially terrible in CAP where Hidden Power Ground runs rampant.

So, in addition to Krilowatt's outdatedness, there are some minor competitive issues we will want to address in this update. Let's get this started with a few questions:

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
2. How has Krilowatt's concept impacted its actual competitive role?
3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?

 

[snake]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
With Mega Metagross usage at an all time high, Pyroak usage is too. This means Krilowatt struggles to carve a niche in the metagame. We could see Toxic and Mirror Coat sets, but that sacrifices so much coverage, and it's really not all that worth to run Krilowatt. I know they perform different roles, but as CAPmons that thrive off of wide coverage, Stratagem fits better in the current metagame. For sure, Krilowatt is annoying, but it gets worn down too fast for how bulky it really should be, especially when you focus all of your EVs into Special Attack and Speed. Plasmanta is arguable a better pick because it boasts higher damage output at the cost of a little bit of Speed.

2. How has Krilowatt's concept has affected its competitive role?
When Krilowatt had Overheat and Draco Meteor, perhaps its concept seemed a little more obvious. Running Overheat over a STAB, Ice Beam, or Earth Power means you miss out on coverage. However, without them, Krilowatt really doesn't have much of a movepool to choose from. It's got a bunch of Electric-type moves, a bunch of Water-type moves, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Hidden Power. I guess Signal Beam too if you really want to count that. "But wait snake, it has physical options too! And it has higher attack than Special Attack!" It's physical options all have smaller Base Power than all of its moves except for Earthquake, Ice Shard is worthless, and it has a single point Attack more than Special Attack. I answer more about this in the 3rd question (answering out of order ftw), but this tiny movepool is what makes current Krilowatt suffer.

3. Without suggesting specific abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
The problem with Krilowatt and its concept is actually its typing, particularly its Electric typing. Electric and Water are both fantastic offensively and combined together are very good defensively. There's not much of a sacrifice of not running both its STABs, though you could run Ice Beam over Water-type STAB if you really wanted, say, both Earth Power and HP Fire. There's also not really much of a sacrifice to running its standard four moves is because it's only really worth running 5 moves out of Krilowatt's movepool: Thunderbolt, Surf, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Hidden Power Fire. Thunder, Blizzard, and Low Kick are kind of useful, but more niche. Another reason why Krilowatt doesn't really work will with its concept is its lack of status moves in its movepool. It's utility movepool is literally Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Substitute. Confuse Ray doesn't count.

What I'm getting at isn't that we need to add back Overheat and Draco Meteor and all the moves it had at its creation. It's hard to make this concept work on a Pokemon with STAB moves that have such good neutral coverage on their own.

 

[SunshineFuture]

What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
Honestly, Krilowatt is in between a rock and a hard place. It has areas where it is extremely powerful against entire teams, but in other areas it can't keep up. It seems like what would happen if Rotom-Wash was more offensively inclined. It however seems to have morphed into a late-game cleaner, which is the exact opposite of what we want.

Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
The one thing I can gather is that Krilowatt suffers from not being very flexible in its movesets. So we could try to focus this update on either knocking LO down a peg to other sets, or buffing everything but LO. We could also potentially give more options for coverage that are about equally as good as the other moves it has to promote diversity, and maybe try to find a way to slightly reduce its longevity to address the idea that it shouldn't be able to handle threats at the same time (which is what is happening right now).

 

[snake]

What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
Honestly, Krilowatt is in between a rock and a hard place. It has areas where it is extremely powerful against entire teams, but in other areas it can't keep up. It seems like what would happen if Rotom-Wash was more offensively inclined. From the idea of a counter to utility, it seems to be a lighter version of a stallbreaker, although I may be misinterpreting it. However, it seems to have morphed into a late-game cleaner, which is the exact opposite of what we want.

If anything, Krilowatt is the opposite of a stallbreaker. It doesn't have access to Taunt or Encore, boosting moves, or reliable recovery (not all stallbreakers have all three but Krilowatt has none), doesn't have the power to break through most common stall pokemon (Chansey being the worst case), and gets trapped by Dugtrio. Stallbreaker, Krilowatt is not.

However, Krilowatt being late-game cleaner is very accurate. Krilowatt lacks the power to punch through walls, but against weakened teams it excels at clicking super effective or neutral moves and has enough bulk to withstand the opposing team's last few hits.

 

[SunshineFuture]

If anything, Krilowatt is the opposite of a stallbreaker. It doesn't have access to Taunt or Encore, boosting moves, or reliable recovery (not all stallbreakers have all three but Krilowatt has none), doesn't have the power to break through most common stall pokemon (Chansey being the worst case), and gets trapped by Dugtrio. Stallbreaker, Krilowatt is not.

However, Krilowatt being late-game cleaner is very accurate. Krilowatt lacks the power to punch through walls, but against weakened teams it excels at clicking super effective or neutral moves and has enough bulk to withstand the opposing team's last few hits.

Again, I said I might be misinterpreting the idea of the Utility Counter, but still. I'm with you. Anyways, Late Game cleaner is the last thing we want. So we could maybe try to tone back its offensive pressure a little bit, so as to not make it so that it can't hurt a fly if it wanted to, but it also can't come in and destroy everything.

 

[Bughouse]

There is no "fixing" krilowatt without rebuilding it from scratch. It has an optimized set and short of removing moves or Magic Guard, nothing is going to make Krilowatt use any other set. Give it Scald (yay even better krill), and call it a day.

 

[Garbagery]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
Bruh it is basically a late game cleaner with a vast amount of sets (1). Turning it into a utility counter would be difficult lol

2. How has Krilowatt's concept impacted its actual competitive role?
We all wanted it to counter mons, so we gave it coverage... too much coverage.

3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
We can always give it new utility for it, enough to be deemed imortant enough to knock off one more more coverage options. Maybe give it glare or perish song or smth.

Either that or giving it an option to check different mons. As said above it used to have overheat and draco meteor (they should really come back in) and some other coverage stuff, as long as it doesn't go too well with everything else.

Also... we gotta remove good coverage so it doesn't become it's only set like ice beam

 

[Kyubics]

There is no "fixing" krilowatt without rebuilding it from scratch. It has an optimized set and short of removing moves or Magic Guard, nothing is going to make Krilowatt use any other set. Give it Scald (yay even better krill), and call it a day.

100% agree with this. Why are we trying to make Krilowatt fit its concept when it hasn't done for years? In all honesty, in needs a Life Orb to do any reasonable damage so it would be difficult to change what it runs aside from giving it better coverage (which is almost perfect already). If anything, the statistics that box showed in the OP highlight that Kril has an extremely established role and that makes me question why we are trying to change it - in fact, most of the issues that were mentioned we can't even change:

Now, not everything is fun and games for Krilowatt. First of all, its LO 4 Attacks set is walled by Pokemon such as Chansey, Ferrothorn, and Gastrodon, and Krilowatt has no way of pivoting away from them. Krilowatt's awkward speed tier leaves it outsped by offensive threats such as Latios, Tapu Koko, Dugtrio, and Mega Metagross, among many others, most of which can easily OHKO or 2HKO it. Finally, Krilowatt has a crippling weakness to Ground, which is especially terrible in CAP where Hidden Power Ground runs rampant.

I think I can safely say that Krilowatt will always be walled by Chansey no matter what we do and I don't think that Kril would waste a moveslot on a Grass type move even if it had one purely to be able to beat Gastrodon. At the moment, Krilowatt can act as a very effective Ferrothorn lure if it uses HP Fire, it's just that most sets choose not to carry it. I think a more apt example would a Pokemon like Pyroak - Kril simply lacks the power to break through bulky Pokemon like this. In my opinion, this is not even something we need to change - imagine what a Pokemon with Krilowatt's coverage could do if it had the power to break through Pyroak. In fact, we couldn't change it even if we wanted to, as it would require changes to stats or a more powerful ability, something far beyond the scope of this update (I'll come back to this later). Similarly, Krilowatt's speed tier is something we can't fix, as well as the fact that it is weak to Ground.

However, the main problem that I have with this so far is that, as decided in this thread, this should be a Consistency Update.

A Consistency Update has a marginal competitive scope and is focused on bringing the CAP Pokemon up to date with the expectations of competitive Pokemon of the Generation's release.

So, in addition to Krilowatt's outdatedness, there are clearly some major competitive issues we need to address in this update.

These two statements are clearly contradictory. People have voted that Krilowatt should not get a large-scale update so why are we trying to give it one? Shouldn't we be looking at what has been introduced since Krilowatt was first made and making decisions based on that? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the way this thread is going so far is very indicative of a Consistency Update.

TL;DR: Why? Why are we trying to make Kril more like its concept, something that is definitely not anywhere near its current role? Why are we trying to find fault in Krilowatt in areas that can't be fixed? And why are we doing any of this when it should be a Consistency Update?

 

[Wenderz]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
As said before by posters above, Krilowatt struggles to break through walls he can't hit super effectively like Pyroak, which makes him more effective Late-Game, but even in this case Krilo isn't the best suited as he isn't fast enough to sweep a weakened team which still have have faster threats. I personnaly use Krilo when he fits in the balance type in my team and when I need switch on the likes of Tomohawk and Manaphy, for instance. I use it as Bulky Sweeper.

3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
As suggested above too, give it more offensive options is a possibility. Although I don't think that Overheat is really needed as he would lose the ability to lure Ferrothorn and Scizor, he can already pick Jirachi and Magearna with EQ too, I don't see why we should add Draco Meteor since it allows to deal only with Kyurem Black. Also, I wonder if the Special LO 4 Attack is really the only viable Set right now. Trace seems perfectly usable too against Mon like M-Mawile, Salamence, Gyarados, Tomohawk (athough Krilo needs probably more non offensive Move to enjoy Prankster) and more.I will check past Krilo's Movepool to have an idea of what we should add again. Nonetheless, if we bring moves like Volt Switch, Soak, Wild Charge and Scald in a Consistency Stage, I think Krilo will already be more versatile both offensively and defensively.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
Cleans late game. Can punch a hole maybe two mid-game. Has a very good typing for taking hits and the bulk to do so while not having to sacrifice offensive presence. Can even dodge the OHKO by some super effective hits which means regardless of match-up, this thing will almost always be useful. Its best match up is versus balance in my experience. Can be useful against other playstyles too, but balance hates this thing. It's 105 speed is slowly but surely being undermined further every new generation, but we still outspeed some really prominent threats so it's not all bad.

2. How has Krilowatt's concept impacted its actual competitive role?
Seems like Kilowatt doesn't quite preform the role of its concept at all. This might bother some people but I don't automatically count that as a failure on anyones part. I think it's serendipitous how Krilowatt turned out, despite missing its mark. There is nothing over whelming about it at all. It's a very solid special attacker that has no way to boost, an extremely common preferred set that you can almost guarantee it is running at team preview, and not enough options to push it over the edge offensively. I understand that this isn't what was intended, but it turned out really solid and I wouldn't call it a failure by any means.

3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
That would be quite tricky to do without altering moves or abilities. As i said above krillowatt has a standard bread and butter set that performs one role, but does this one role well enough. I know some of the cap team might think it's super important to fulfill concepts, but I think maybe for this one make an exception. It would be a headache to achieve and most likely require a complete revamp.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

Bughouse Kyubics

Before this thread goes in the wrong direction, I want to make sure everyone understands something. Yes, Krilowatt was indeed voted Consistency on the Priority poll. I cannot argue with that. However, it is blatantly clear that Krilowatt currently achieves the complete opposite of its concept, and pulling CAP mons closer (however closer that may mean) to their concept is a key part of this update process. See here:

Non-Competitive Updates:

1. Update in terms of flavor: This is based purely on non-competitive reasoning. The desired outcome is for the CAP Pokémon to appear more realistic, such as with the addition of flavour tutor moves, hidden ability or moves unreleased at the time of the CAP's making.

Competitive Updates:

1. Update in terms of concept: This is a continuation of the CAP's original concept and it is an effort to make the CAP fulfill its concept in the current metagame, despite the role it currently has. It is up for debate what kinds of changes (eg addition/removal of moves and/or abilities) this would entail. Consistent with the main CAP process, flavor is not taken into account when making these changes.
2. Update in terms of viability: This type of update aims to 'buff' or 'nerf' a CAP Pokémon based on how it currently functions in the metagame. This type of update tries to preserve the 'essence' of the Pokémon - namely it still has the same role both before and after the changes, but the result is that it performs that role either better or worse. Again, flavor is not taken into account when making these changes.

That being said, I understand that Krilowatt's competitive update will not be as significant as any of the updates done so far. In the OP, I just wanted to briefly go over the pros and cons of Krilowatt in the current meta, and by no means does that imply we'll be trying to fix every single con. If I haven't made this clear enough, this is an Update in terms of concept, not in terms of viability.

Continue on discussion with that in mind.

 

[Airwind]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
A cleaner cuz krilowatt have a good movepool and decent speed

3. Without suggesting specific abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
imo give him some of more physical moves or moves such as taunt,scald,etc

 

[Deck Knight]

I don't see anything wrong with the questions boxofkangaroos asked in the OP. Yes, this is a consistency update. We should still get a good baseline of where Krilowatt is in the meta and then discuss what updates make sense for it.

For example if Krilowatt is NOT a pivot, which it really isn't, then Volt Switch may not be a good option as a consistency update despite its ubiquity on Electric types.

If we can determine any non-defining moves that would help Krilowatt have more set variety that remain consistent with its original concept, those should be up for discussion. Should Kril for example be able to set Terrains? I don't want to get into specifics yet, just wanted to outline where my thoughts are.

 

[jas61292]

Seconding what Deck said, concept and/or current role plays an important part in our update policy. That does not however mean that we have to add or change things to make it fit that role. Rather, when it comes to more consistency based things, it means we need to know the role it is supposed to be, such that we do not give it anything that would cause it to take on a different role, even if such an addition would make sense from a consistency point of view. Deck hit the nail on the head here with the Volt Switch example, and while I am not going to say whether I personally feel one way or the other on that move until the appropriate time, that is a clear example of how something's role must be taken into account with regard to consistency updates.

Anyways, as for the questions themselves:

1. Kril currently has a very solid place in the meta. While it has certainly lagged a bit behind in recent generations due to the average speed being bumped up a bit, its main role of LO All Out Attacker is still very good. Its not going to be taking the metagame by storm, but it would still always have a niche. Its coverage is fantastic, its speed is good, and its bulk is amazing for a pure offensive mon. Its just lacking a bit in power, but the bulk + recoil free LO help make up for it a bit. The idea that it plays well as a late game cleaner is very accurate, and while it struggles against a few special walls, like Chansey, it is very strong against more balanced teams. It should also be noted that, while it is much less popular, it does have the ability to go physical or mixed with the exact same coverage, and while it is not usually quite as good, this can allow it to do better against a few threats (Mega Crucibelle for instance can take an Earth Power well over 50% of the time, but always dies to a physical attacking Kril's Earthquake). And Kril does have a few other niche options up its sleeve, such as Heart Swap, but none of them are good enough to really take away from its defining offensive set.

2. I don't really think Kril's concept really comes into play that much anymore. And, while I wasn't around at the time, from what I have heard, I don't think it really has ever be defined much by its concept. It simply has the ability to do to much, as far as coverage, to ever really be limited to just being a utility counter to specific threats.

3. I don't think we can. To me, this kind of approach would be a lost cause. It would require that we pretty much remake the whole Pokemon, which is really not what we want to be doing here. I think our time would be much better served simply trying to keep it to within the role it currently plays.

 

[Snorlax in the way]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?
As is this case for many of the older Capmons if your name is not Tomohawk or Aurumoth, the recent transition to gen 7 has not been very kind to you. Kril struggles heavily to do much of anything in this current metagame. Its speed is subpar, it is far too weak on both sets, and in generally struggles to pose a threat outside of absorbing status, which several other pokemon can do just fine if thats the role your team needs. Overall is it just extremely mediocre and cannot give a legitimate reason to be on many teams.

2. How has Krilowatt's concept impacted its actual competitive role?
I think Kril's concept, as box said, seems to have shaped its current role in the metagame. It was supposed to be able to tailor itself to beat several things, but now it runs 4 amazing coverage moves, and tries to do as much as it can to blanket check everything. Overcompensation for its role seems to have turned it into: subpar blanket check, the pokemon

3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
Possibly taking a status favored route as snake pointed out, or going the way of giving it more coverage (not necessarily draco shrimp). More status could mean it could run 3 attacks and possibly a 3rd status options ie. tran, or more coverage could make more varied sets aside from bolt beam stab ground coverage. I do not necessarily think we can get it close to its original concept though, these are just ideas as of now i can put support behind. (always keep in mind z moves, z devastating drake shrimp doing some heavy damage :^))

 

[G-Luke]

There is no "fixing" krilowatt without rebuilding it from scratch. It has an optimized set and short of removing moves or Magic Guard, nothing is going to make Krilowatt use any other set. Give it Scald (yay even better krill), and call it a day.

I could argue that giving it more utility and physical options Crab Hammer would allow it to actually be able to customize its sets to beat different threats. LO + 4 Attacks threaten balanced builds, so giving it options to threaten other builds can be a good start.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?

The only possibility I can see is perhaps giving it a usable physical set. The problem is that a utility counter uses customized sets to beat certain Pokemon, and has a main advantage of being unpredictable and tailored to a team.

The disappointing thing is that Krillowatt just relies on the incredible coverage behind Ice Beam, Earth Power, Surf, and Thunderbolt to beat a bunch of Pokemon and be done with it. Access to two of the best coverage sets (Ice/Ground and Ice/Electric) is nothing to scoff at. However, this makes it too easy to just forget about customizing a set when one set hits almost everything super effectively.

Anyways, onward to what I was pointing out at the start. If some coverage was removed (say, Earth Power), it'd force Krillowatt to run the Physical version instead. This is purely hypothetical and I'm not trying to polljump or anything. I just think an example is the best way to explain this.

Example

Current Krillowatt set: Ice Beam, Earth Power, Surf, Thunderbolt.

If we removed for example Ice Beam and Earthquake, and then gave it Icicle Crash, then Krillowatt would be forced to run Physical sets to beat Grass and Dragon types while being forced to run a Special set to beat Electric types and Mollux. I realize this is drastic, but it would force the player to actually make choices based on what they want to beat.

New Krillowatt sample set (1): Icicle Crash, Waterfall, Thunder Punch, Ice Shard/Counter/Low Kick/ Utility move (?)
With this set, Krillowatt has excellent coverage but loses more to Mollux, Plasmanta, Rotom-W, and several other 'mons.
New Krillowatt sample set (2): Surf, Thunderbolt, Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice\Icicle Crash
With this set, Krillowatt still could use Hidden Power Ice which is a tad irksome, but now this set is countered by Grass types much more thoroughly than before. It either has to run a much weaker Ice coverage move, or use a physical one that is significantly less powerful, since Krillo can't afford to invest into attack.

So essentially, my opinion is that Krillowatt was built wrong. By making it have to choose between physical and special movesets, we could force it to makes decisions about what it wants to defeat. Krillowatt can't really afford to invest in both attack, special attack, and speed, so you have to decide what you want to break through and then choose physical or special accordingly.

This is a fairly radical concept though and would require everyone to be on board with Krillowatt potentially being changed a lot. I would like to point out though that our goal is for it to change a lot; we want Krillowatt to ideally shift from being a late-game cleaner to being a utility concept like the concept intended.

 

[SunshineFuture]

3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?

The only possibility I can see is perhaps giving it a usable physical set. The problem is that a utility counter uses customized sets to beat certain Pokemon, and has a main advantage of being unpredictable and tailored to a team.

The disappointing thing is that Krillowatt just relies on the incredible coverage behind Ice Beam, Earth Power, Surf, and Thunderbolt to beat a bunch of Pokemon and be done with it. Access to two of the best coverage sets (Ice/Ground and Ice/Electric) is nothing to scoff at. However, this makes it too easy to just forget about customizing a set when one set hits almost everything super effectively.

Anyways, onward to what I was pointing out at the start. If some coverage was removed (say, Earth Power), it'd force Krillowatt to run the Physical version instead. This is purely hypothetical and I'm not trying to polljump or anything. I just think an example is the best way to explain this.

Example

Current Krillowatt set: Ice Beam, Earth Power, Surf, Thunderbolt.

If we removed for example Ice Beam and Earthquake, and then gave it Icicle Crash, then Krillowatt would be forced to run Physical sets to beat Grass and Dragon types while being forced to run a Special set to beat Electric types and Mollux. I realize this is drastic, but it would force the player to actually make choices based on what they want to beat.

New Krillowatt sample set (1): Icicle Crash, Waterfall, Thunder Punch, Ice Shard/Counter/Low Kick/ Utility move (?)
With this set, Krillowatt has excellent coverage but loses more to Mollux, Plasmanta, Rotom-W, and several other 'mons.
New Krillowatt sample set (2): Surf, Thunderbolt, Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice\Icicle Crash
With this set, Krillowatt still could use Hidden Power Ice which is a tad irksome, but now this set is countered by Grass types much more thoroughly than before. It either has to run a much weaker Ice coverage move, or use a physical one that is significantly less powerful, since Krillo can't afford to invest into attack.

So essentially, my opinion is that Krillowatt was built wrong. By making it have to choose between physical and special movesets, we could force it to makes decisions about what it wants to defeat. Krillowatt can't really afford to invest in both attack, special attack, and speed, so you have to decide what you want to break through and then choose physical or special accordingly.

This is a fairly radical concept though and would require everyone to be on board with Krillowatt potentially being changed a lot. I would like to point out though that our goal is for it to change a lot; we want Krillowatt to ideally shift from being a late-game cleaner to being a utility concept like the concept intended.

I like the idea, although I'm unsure if we want to go this route, as there are at least two other CAPs that have already done that: Aurumoth and Naviathan.

Aurumoth, even without illusion, can customize to be physical or special, and can also pick what it wants to beat. Naviathan doesn't really have the same level of customization potential, but can run physical or special. If we go this route, than it's just going to be likely outclassed by the two I mentioned. It'll be viable, sure, but it could easily be overshadowed by Auru and Navi if we go down this path.

However, I agree that Krilo needs to lose at least one coverage move (either EP or Ice Beam), because Electric/Ground and Electric/Ice is just too strong of a coverage combination for Krilo imo.

 

[sparktrain]

I'm uneasy with how we're handling a supposed "consistency" update. Krilowatt sits at a fine place in the metagame. We don't need to artificially shift its viability when it's just about as middle-of-the-road as CAPs come. I don't feel like making a long-winded post about update philosophy, but I'll just say that throwing around a bunch of ideas for buffs/nerfs in an attempt to adjust Krilowatt's viability or fix its concept is entirely unnecessary.

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?

My opinion of where it sits is that where it sits is completely fine. MGross is countered already by Pyroak, which also makes life hard for Krilowatt. Doesn't change Krilowatts usefulness other than that you need to have something that can counter Pyroak; e.g Strategem.

2. How has Krilowatt's concept impacted its actual competitive role?

I don't think it has, personally. I don't think that it's concept was particularly strong in the first place, not having a very clear goal. "Let's counter lots of things" leaves it very denucleated.

3. Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?

I don't personally feel that the concept can be done. Counter lots of things, but having a dedicated set for each one throws it immediately into Genesect territory. Now, I don't like throwing the G-Word down lightly, but I'm conscious of the fact that if you've got a pokemon with a very wide movepool, that revolves around pushing a different moveset for each, you run into the same guessing game every battle it shows up of will-they/won't-they be running certain ones. Sure, you may have obvious holes in your team that could be fit with a said "goes anywhere" pokemon, but messing with that over-much means that it can easily risk going into territory of "it can do anything".

I believe that its original concept was flawed from the start (without insulting the original concept creation process or the team who came to make it; I think it's a fine addition to the game), and as such shouldn't really be used as a gauge for how to proceed with this consistency update.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

What is your opinion on Krillowatt's current place in the metagame?
Ah Kril. A Pokemon that was so focused on utility in its creation that it has become linear and hackneyed. It has an awesome typing, great bulk, decent speed, and its movepool already speaks for itself. Krill does plenty as a late game cleaner, as it can hit a ton of things for great ability. Its not invincible of course, as special walls can beat it, ground coverage is literally everywhere, and Pyroak is one of the hardest counters to it in recent history. In my opinion, Krillowatt doesn't really need much in terms of competitive, hence the consistency update.

How has Krilowatt's concept impacted its actual competitive role?
Its concept and competitive role couldn't be further for each other if we tried. Instead, Krillowatt has sort of formed an alternative identity as an almost "Compact Counter", a Pokemon that is always able to beat a large number of pokemon, but loses to the same bunch under any scenario. It has also formed its role as a late game cleaner, which it does fairly well. I really like what Snor has to say about it.

Without suggesting specific new abilities or moves, how might we pull Krilowatt closer to its original concept?
Since this is a Consistency Update, we shouldn't make this idea our total focus. We should still keep this fact in mind a little bit. I think the only way to tackle this question without it becoming a Major or Minor update is to give it consistency moves that also can give it a small bit of utility, diversifying it sets. Moves such as Volt Switch and Scald can do this, but there are probably more we can invest time into.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

1. What is your opinion on Krilowatt's current place in the metagame?Kril is fine. Kril is cool. Kril is something that I would call a glue-mon as it's able to fill a wide variety of holes on a single team. Much like what is characteristic of other glue mons, though it is able to 1v1 beat many things, it cannot usually beat multiple mons that it can check in a single match; usually after beating one, it has been worn down a lot and can't beat another. But even as box's list in the OP shows, Kril's favorable matchup with the majority of the ten most used CAPs is very very handy.

I see no reason to force Kril to follow its original concept if it hurts its current identity. The only thing that I could see to help this without destroying its current self is to make its physical attacking options a bit better so that it has options to check physically defensive or specially defensive mons. For example, a physical kril might lose its ability to prevent Cawmodore from setting up successfully but would allow it to beat AV Colossoil more easily.

Honestly I love Kril, I love using it, I love how it can check so many things but itsn't broken enough to check them all in a single match. I am perfectly fine with where Kril is at now and only minor tweaks (read: more physical options + flavor stuff) are what we should be looking at imo.

 

[G-Luke]

I agree with HeaLnDeaL wholeheartly here. This is a Consistency Update, so the removal of any moves / abilities to me is a complete no no. What we need to focus on is what additions would be considered non consistent or not. Kril is fine in the current metagame, a fun pick that beats alot of things while not being broken (re: Pre Update Aurumoth), and if it wasn't fine, based on what the community voted on, we wouldn't be at liberty to do much about it.

 

[Drapionswing]

Bughouse Kyubics
Before this thread goes in the wrong direction, I want to make sure everyone understands something. Yes, Krilowatt was indeed voted Consistency on the Priority poll. I cannot argue with that. However, it is blatantly clear that Krilowatt currently achieves the complete opposite of its concept, and pulling CAP mons closer (however closer that may mean) to their concept is a key part of this update process.

If this was the case for krillowatt the community wouldn't have voted for consistency for krillowatt. Consistency updates were just to bring our past CAPs up to date with the newer generation moves. Focus on it's concept should be avoided UNLESS we are breaking one of the update principles. Changes should not be made in any competitive light to impact it's viability however, in krilowatts case a consistency update will effect it's viability. Despite this we shouldn't be AIMING to do so.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

Alright, I believe all the major points have been brought up. The general consensus is that we should not be going out of our way to pull Krilowatt much closer to the Utility Counter concept because Krilowatt has pretty much always been detached from the concept. That being said, many people have suggested that Krilowatt could be brought closer to its concept by introducing more moves (be that coverage, utility, or physical moves) in order to increase the diversity in its sets and allow it to cater to its team's needs. Also, because this is indeed a Consistency Update, competitive additions will be limited significantly and removals will most likely be disallowed entirely. We will continue through the update with these ideas in mind.

And without any further hesitation, it's time to move into Ability discussion. One obvious anachronism is Krilowatt's lack of Hidden Ability. Have no fear, Update Man is here!

What are some fitting flavor Abilities for Krilowatt to inherit as a Hidden Ability?

Keep in mind that these abilities should have no chance of outclassing Krilowatt's existing abilities competitively.