Class Warfare

[nv]

Approved by The Immortal and Eevee General

Class Warfare
(Props to Mars Lowell and tysequaine for helping fine tune this idea)

[source]
​

Ever wondered what it would be like if Pokemon had classes? This metagame aims to discover how incorporating classes, and subsequently their advantages, can benefit or hinder specific Pokemon.

Rules:

Mechanic: Each Pokemon are separated into 4 different classes based on their primary type, giving each class an unique advantage.
Clauses: OU Clauses
Bans: None
Unbans: None

Strategy:
The idea of the metagame is to see how classes and their advantages can affect the viability of a Pokemon itself.

Q&A:
Q: How are classes determined?
A: They are based on their primary typings so Keldeo is in the Healer class while Weavile is in the Mage class.

Q: What are the class advantages?
A: Soldier gets +1 Atk/Spe, Mage gets +1 SpA/Spe, Healer gets +1 Def/SpD, and Rogue gets +2 Spe.

Q: Do these stack with setup moves?
A: Yes.

Q: Do setup boosts differ from the class advantage?
A: Yes.

Q: How does the class advantage work? What about the disadvantage?
A: Each class has a stat advantage against the class they are "superior" against. The disadvantage basically negates an advantage a Pokemon may get.

Q: How does this work?
A: It works similar to the Download ability that whenever a Mage switches into a Soldier it gains the +1 Atk and SpA (i.e. its class advantage), but if that Soldier switches out into a Healer, the Mage loses its advantage while the Healer gains +1 Def and SpD.

Q: What about Normal- and Dragon-types?
A: Since there was an "odd" amount of types,

and

types are outside the class "square" which means they can't be any class in particular. While this may seem like these types are a disadvantage, these two types are the more reliable typings thanks to them possibly not having to rely on a class advantage to come out on top.

Resources:

"Class Square": Soldier < Mage < Healer < Rogue (Soldier gains an advantage vs Rogue and a disadvantage vs Mage)

Soldier

Types Included:

Weak to: Mage
Strong against: Rogue
Advantage: +1 Atk, +1 Spe

Mage

Types Included:

Weak to: Healer
Strong against: Soldier
Advantage: +1 SpA, +1 Spe

Healer

Types Included:

Weak to: Rogue
Strong against: Mage
Advantage: +1 Def, +1 SpD

Rogue

Types included:

Weak to: Soldier
Strong against: Healer
Advantage: +2 Spe

 

[nv]

 

[Whydon]

Keldeo is really interesting here. It doesn't really appreciate its new weaknesses (the enhanced Flying weakness sucks), but losing that weakness to Psychic is really helpful, and the buffed resistances to two very common offensive types will be helpful here.

Will post more later.

 

[Derivatives]

Flash Cannon Thundurus AKA Gengar, Landorus-T, Terrakion, Mamoswine, and [insert something affected by the Hidden Power of choice here]'s worst nightmare.

 

[nv]

[00:53] +MattL: But wouldn't Keldeo's Secret Sword do 3/4 damage to Talonflame? Because a class advantage yields x1.5 damage?
[00:54] +nv: Well it does half before class advantage
[00:54] +nv: Is .5x times 1.5x = .75x
[00:54] +nv: ?
[00:54] +MattL: Yep.
[00:54] +nv: Oh
[00:54] +nv: Then yea I guess I will have to fix that lmao
[00:55] +MattL: Then stall is probably the dominant playstyle in the metagame
[00:55] +MattL: because you take 1/2 damage with class advantage
[00:55] +MattL: but only 3/2 (not x2) from class weakness
[00:56] +nv: Hmm
[00:56] +nv: Should I change it to 2x then?
[00:56] +MattL: It's up to you. What do you want out of your metagame?
[00:56] +nv: Well I wanted a "balance"
[00:57] +MattL: then it should be either
[00:57] +MattL: x2 and x1/2 for class advantages
[00:57] +nv: Offense can take advantage of defensive teams' new weaknesses
[00:57] +MattL: or x(2/3) and x(3/2) for class advantages
[00:58] +nv: Ok I will change it to .67x which works with "standard" stage drops of Pokemon
[00:58] +MattL: okay
[01:00] +nv: Thanks for pointing it out n_n

After this discussion, I am changing the class advantage multiplier for "resistances" and "weaknesses". Decided on 2x and 0.5x as the new multipliers and that the multiplier is only calculated via the primary type. What this means is a Pokemon like Talonflame now has "new" weaknesses and resistances:

[01:43] +nv: So Talonflame's new type weaknesses / resistances with this idea is...
[01:43] +nv: Weaknesses: Water, Electric, Rock
[01:43] +nv: Resistances: Bug, Grass, Fighting, Steel, Ice, Fire

Basically this means Talonflame swaps its 4x Rock weakness for a 4x Water weakness while gaining an Ice resist. Its Bug and Grass resists are now .5x instead of .25x while Fighting and Steel are now .25x resists instead of .5x

 

[Maleovex]

After this discussion, I am changing the class advantage multiplier for "resistances" and "weaknesses". Decided on 2x and 0.5x as the new multipliers and that the multiplier is only calculated via the primary type. What this means is a Pokemon like Talonflame now has "new" weaknesses and resistances:

[01:43] +nv: So Talonflame's new type weaknesses / resistances with this idea is...
[01:43] +nv: Weaknesses: Water, Electric, Rock
[01:43] +nv: Resistances: Bug, Grass, Fighting, Steel, Ice, Fire

Basically this means Talonflame swaps its 4x Rock weakness for a 4x Water weakness while gaining an Ice resist. Its Bug and Grass resists are now .5x instead of .25x while Fighting and Steel are now .25x resists instead of .5x

Thank you for do that this was so confusing before that

 

[Stocke]

If I'm reading this right, it looks like Breloom, Heracross, Leavanny, and Parasect are now 8x weak to Flying-type moves. Granted none of them were surviving a powerful Flying move to begin with and the latter two aren't even viable in OU, but I figured it was worth mention.

oh, and also Hoopa-U and Malamar's 8x Bug weaknesses

I'd comment more but this is a bit confusing to me at the moment, I might add more later

 

[QT]

On another note, Mega Pinsir gets OHKOed by stealth rocks now.

Nope. Sr caps at 50%. Srry.

 

[Ghoul King]

Class is based on the user of the move. (Unless the OP has completely misrepresented their intentions) It's not that Breloom is x8 weak to Flying type moves, it's x8 weak to Flying type moves from Pokemon whose primary typing is Flying/Ghost/Ground/Poison -Talonflame actually does x6 damage to Breloom now with its Brave Bird, because its primary typing is Fire, and so its "class" is Mage.

Similarly, Stealth Rock doesn't even care about all this, unless it "remembers" the class of the Pokemon that set it.

This has the implication that coverage is less effective/important: if Talonflame decides to carry Steel Wing to hit Fairies, its damage is still reduced against them by the class disadvantage, and you might be better off U-Turning out to a Steel type -or a Poison type, which not only has the type advantage, but also has the class advantage, and therefore may be able to tank even coverage moves.

 

[QT]

Class is based on the user of the move. (Unless the OP has completely misrepresented their intentions) It's not that Breloom is x8 weak to Flying type moves, it's x8 weak to Flying type moves from Pokemon whose primary typing is Flying/Ghost/Ground/Poison -Talonflame actually does x6 damage to Breloom now with its Brave Bird, because its primary typing is Fire, and so its "class" is Mage.

Similarly, Stealth Rock doesn't even care about all this, unless it "remembers" the class of the Pokemon that set it.

This has the implication that coverage is less effective/important: if Talonflame decides to carry Steel Wing to hit Fairies, its damage is still reduced against them by the class disadvantage, and you might be better off U-Turning out to a Steel type -or a Poison type, which not only has the type advantage, but also has the class advantage, and therefore may be able to tank even coverage moves.

In this case (having talked with Nv both while he planned this and after, Its actually just flat out 8x weak to flying type moves, because flying attacks are soldier attacks. The attack is a soldier move, so it hits as a soldier move.

In my own mind, most good pokemon will be the ones that beat the classes they are weak too, and so can sweep the metagame. Ie, something like a fighting type with dark and ground coverage.

Also diancie, the one fairy talon doesn't set up on, is primary rock smh.

 

[nv]

So I talked it over on how to make this less confusing for you guys with OM room, Scyther NO Swiping, Ransei, Peef Rimgar, and InfernapeTropius11 so stay tuned for that. n_n

 

[nv]

Ok so after discussing it some more with the above stated frens as well as imas234, and with tentative approval from The Baemortal, I decided on a better way to portray the advantages. Now each class gets a sort of Download-related boost so long as they have the advantage. What this means is that as long as a Soldier is up against a Rogue it has its advantage, but if it is up against a Mage or Healer it does not. The OP has been updated to reflect this and I thank each and every one of my frens who helped me "fix" the whole class effectiveness as it became more confusing than I had initially intended. Thank you guys n_n

 

[TheFilthiestCasual]

If I may make a suggestion: wouldn't it be better for Dark to be Rogue and Ghost to be Mage? Otherwise, this

would be considered a rogue while this

would be considered a mage. That just seems wrong. It would be better for play, too, since there aren't any speedy physical ghost types to take advantage of the rogue stat changes.

Also, why does mage increase both offensive stats rather than simply being a special parallel to the warrior with an SpA/SpD boost?

 

[nv]

If I may make a suggestion: wouldn't it be better for Dark to be Rogue and Ghost to be Mage? Otherwise, this

would be considered a rogue while this

would be considered a mage. That just seems wrong. It would be better for play, too, since there aren't any speedy physical ghost types to take advantage of the rogue stat changes.

Also, why does mage increase both offensive stats rather than simply being a special parallel to the warrior with an SpA/SpD boost?

This is a fair argument and to be completely honest, I separated types mainly by myself (although Mars Lowell and tysequaine helped as my initial separation was wrong as well) so I am willing to swap their classes.

As for the modifiers, again this was an arbitrary decision on my own so I am willing to get input (although this is feeling more like a Pet Mod by saying that lmao) so what I have now decided to do is make Soldier's Modifier +1 Atk, Spe, Mage's Modifier +1 SpA, Spe, and Rogue's Modifier's +2 Spe (since rogues are naturally fast but don't necessarily have power backing them up). Credit to Quantum Tesseract for the modifier idea, n_n I am also officially announcing this is the final changes so now I want to see you guys theorymonning about how Pokemon benefit from this change. :)

 

[Phione]

...So Rogues get a speed advantage against Healers, who are likely to be bulkmons and unlikely to have much speed or purpose in outspeeding anyway? That doesn't feel like much of an advantage.

 

[nv]

...So Rogues get a speed advantage against Healers, who are likely to be bulkmons and unlikely to have much speed or purpose in outspeeding anyway? That doesn't feel like much of an advantage.

Well the advantages are more about flavor than anything and Healer won't have the +1 Def, SpD whenever it is up against a Rogue and a Rogue can use that speed advantage to either gain momentum via U-turn / Volt Switch or use it to set up a Swords Dance or w/e boosting move a Rogue may have to blow past opposing Soldiers and then the team.

 

[Whydon]

So since nv made a pretty big contribution post in my metagame, Type Reflectors, I figured I would do the same and look at what this meta has to offer! I'll mainly be focusing on the best Pokemon that each class has to offer in OU, and trust me, there are a lot of them.

Soldier

"Advantage: +1 Atk, +1 Spd."

Mega-Diancie becomes quite good here, as its physical and mixed sets become even better. STAB Diamond Storm is going to be doing huge amounts of damage to anything that doesn't resist it after that +1 in Attack. Simple, but effective.

This is another very powerful attacker, as once again it greatly benefits from that boost, giving its physical and mixed sets much more versatility and viability. It can fire off powerful Stone Edges, Crunches, Earthquakes and Pursuits as soon as it switches in. The +1 in Speed is also useful for revenge killing Rogues.

Thought Iron Head wasn't spamable enough? Well here you go! +1 in Attack and Speed means that Jirachi will be able to flinch things to death a lot more easily and a lot more quickly. Like Mega-Diancie, it's simple yet effective, as even if it doesn't flinch its target, it will still be doing lots and lots of damage.

Mega-Metagross and Conkeldurr basically get a Dragon Dance upon switching in (as does everything else in this class, but Mega-Metagross and Conkeldurr seem to enjoy the boost much more), and they can then proceed to hurt the opponent with boosted attacks, allowing them to basically destroy anything that is weak to their STAB and coverage.

Very similar to Conkeldurr and Mega-Metagross: it has powerful STAB, a good offensive typing, and priority in Bullet Punch and Fake Out. Strong, powerful, and versatile, Mega-Medicham only gets better here.

Other Options (Not OU):

Mage

"Advantage: +1 SpA, +1 Spe."

Benefits a lot from this class, as it can fire off powerful STAB and coverage attacks much more easily here. Its attacks are also now significantly more powerful, allowing it to tear holes through teams very quickly if it can't be stopped.

Both of these work very similar in which they are fast and strong Psychic types that, like Gengar, can easily do lots of quick and powerful damage due to the boosts they now receive. Very fast and very powerful already, these two only get better here.

There is a wopping amount of Electric types here, and they all really do the same thing. Like all of the previously mentioned Mages, their powerful STAB in Electric becomes even more powerful, and they can now spam moves like Thunderbolt and Volt Switch a lot easier for some quick and powerful attacking power. All in all, these Pokemon simply become even better in an already Electric-heavy metagame.

Talonflame is worth a mention due to the fact that it seems to be the least affected by the disadvantage of this class. Talonflame does suffer a lot less from the loss in its boosts when a Healer comes out (it doesn't really mind the Special Attack and Speed loss), making it a lot more flexible to use on offensive teams.

Once again, two very similar 'mons in terms of how they take advantage of their boosts. Heatran can become a formidable threat with a Scarfed set, allowing it to outspeed a lot in the metagame and revenge kill Pokemon much more easily. Mega-Charizard Y is basically the same, except it won't always be locked into a move.

Other Options (Not OU):

Healer

"Advantage: +1 Def, +1 SpD."

Manaphy loves this boost, as it can easily get off at least one Tail Glow and then proceed to do massive amounts of damage. It is already a dominant force in OU, and the class advantage only makes it better, as it can setup much more easily here.

Mega Slowbro and even base form Slowbro are phenomenal with the Healer boost, as Slowbro can effectively come in, take a hit (the new boosts lets it take hits much more easily), and then Slack Off the damage. Slowbro also does not mind the class disadvantage: most Rogues will be physical attackers, and Slowbro already has great Defense, allowing it to take hits even when it loses its defensive boosts.

Okay, now its time to get scared. Tired of all of these boosts running around? Unaware Clefable is just what you need. An automatic Cosmic Boost upon switching in and the ability to basically get up free Calm Minds and Moonlights almost immediately makes Clefable one of the best Pokemon in this metagame. Its sheer bulk upon switching in is terrifying. Have fun trying to break past this thing!

Very similar to Manaphy in which it can now setup a lot easier here with Swords Dance. If it needs to, it can also Roost up upon switch-in, allowing it to last a lot longer on any bulky offensive team. As I have said about a lot of Pokemon here: simple, yet very effective.

An interesting option in all honesty. The boost to its defenses means it can get up Substitutes easier, and can also get those Contrary boosts a lot more quickly with Leaf Storm. Not quite sure how this can play out, but in all honesty I don't see anything that Serperior loses here.

Mega-Venusaur can actually run some interesting sets here; Curse sets might see some more viability and usability since it can now get Curses up a lot easier. Or, if you want, you can go with the more conventional tank sets, which will probably be the most effective sets here. Once again, a very threatening defensive threat that can easily pressure a lot of teams.

Other Options (Not OU):

Rogue

"Advantage: +2 Spe."

Imagine switching Bisharp in on a predicated Defog. On that turn alone, it would gain +2 Attack and +2 Speed (assuming the opponent isn't a Soldier). Bisharp is a pretty slow Pokemon to begin with, but it places a lot of pressure on the opposing team just by the sight of this Pokemon. It really forces the opponent to place smart and carefully around it.

These Pokemon are all very similar: they become fast physical attackers with great STAB and coverage options. The main selling point for these Pokemon, however, is how they can all run Choice Band if they want - the added Speed means they can afford to run either Adamant, hold a Choice Band, or even do both. They can all hit very quickly and very hard, making them formidable threats in this metagame.

Tornadus-T is the only Flying type (outside of Noivern) that gets this boost, however it is arguably one of the best Pokemon in this class. Strong STAB means it can hit hard and heal off any residual damage from LO with Regenerator. Once again, one of the best Pokemon in OU is able to hold its own in this metagame.

Other Options (Not OU):

This is just the tip of the iceberg, as there are a lot Pokemon in lower tiers that can really take advantage of their respective boosts. Hopefully you enjoy this nv :)

 

[Angry2]

I personally see that a lot of changes can be done in specificating the types for each class and the boosts slightly, Here is how I see it shall be, with some explanation

Soldier
Types: Steel/Ground/Rock/Fighting
Boost: +1 Atk, +1 Def
Explanation: Well, Soldier is for the toughest people hence the extra attack and defense, Steel/Ground/Rock are literally quite strong minerals As for fighting, isn't it obvious enough? Physically strong fighters, most of them at least so it makes sense for them to be here, and they make sense for getting these boosts,Bulkier and Tougher
Rogue
Types: Dark/Poison/Flying/Bug
Boost: +2 Spe
Explanation: Rogue, The Stealth class, Obviously the type of shadows and tricks, AKA Dark will be placed here, as for Poison, A lot of rogues (in games at least :P) use Damage over time attacks (Toxic) then keep running (Switching) away to damage them as much without getting damaged as much, As for flying it is literally the main type of speed (after normal :P) so it fits here well, And as bugs are small sized, they are filthy and agile, fitting into the Rogue Criteria
Healer
Types: Fairy/Water/Grass/Ghost
Boost: +1 Def, +1 SpD
Explanation: Healer, Pretty much 3/4 types are perfect, in which fairy type is literally the main cutest and pure-hearted type, Water is the main secret of life as we all know, Grass represents life itself (:P), Now the thing that is left is Ghost, Well it was the leftovers (Mage is decided already) and it kinda fits, and some of the ghost types look good enough for healers (Not a good explanation this time)
Mage
Types: Fire/Ice/Electric/Psychic
Boost: +1 SpA, +1 SpD
Explanation: All of the types fit the Mage really, Do I need to explain this? Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Look at them, this is your explanation

Here is my post, The explanations are not the best, but it is how I think the classes shall be

 

[TheFilthiestCasual]

^You put Dark twice and forgot Psychic. Psychic could probably go under Healer (lots of psychic types get recover) while Ghost could stay mage. Mostly because I just can't accept the idea that Mismagius would not be a mage. I mean come on.

Onto the metagame itself, I see stall in general doing very well here. Especially bulky water types since their electric weakness gets somewhat mitigated. Mega Pinsir would also have an easier time setting up. This is a difficult one for me to theorymon, though, because of the constantly changing stats upon switch.

 

[Angry2]

^Well, Psychic is literally the meaning of mage, and I will not dump a WHOLE type for ONE pokemon, Will you?
I mean come on, Psychic is literally teh mage type, and yeah I fixed it now

 

[Martin]

^Well, Psychic is literally the meaning of mage, and I will not dump a WHOLE type for ONE pokemon, Will you?
I mean come on, Psychic is literally teh mage type, and yeah I fixed it now

Psychics and mages aren't the same thing at all. Telekinesis, mind-reading etc. do not come under the umbrella of magic, which is the primary tool which mages use, and are instead included in an entirely separate catagory. Psychics commonly talk about channeling spirits (i.e. nothing to do with magic) and are commonly assocoated with superstitious beliefs, miracles and spiritual healing--the latter two of which are attributes commonly associated with clerics. As such, clerics are a much more appropriate class when considered in conjunction with moves like Recover and abilities like Regenerator being common among Psychic-types.

Ghosts, on the other hand, have varying interpretations in popular media; sometimes they are associated with telekinetics and pyrokinesis, sometimes they are associated with magic. Add on thematic stuff like Mismagius and there is more evidence supporting a mage class than there is for psychic, and I'm sorry but I don't think I've /ever/ either seen or heard stories (fictional or otherwise) of people being healed by f*cking ghosts, which if anything are associated with /death/ as opposed to healing and life (supported by the dark mage class in Fire Emblem, with them typically having some kind of obsession with death).

 

[Muhznit]

So... at the risk of being captain buzzkill here, the thing you're trying to figure out is kinda flawed here.

You said this:

The idea of the metagame is to see how classes and their advantages can affect the viability of a Pokemon itself.

But you did this:

Q: How are classes determined?
A: They are based on their primary typings so Keldeo is in the Healer class while Weavile is in the Mage class.

Q: What are the class advantages?
A: Soldier gets +1 Atk/Def, Mage gets +1 Atk/SpA, Healer gets +1 Def/SpD, and Rogue gets +1 Atk/Spe.

Since it's coupled to the design of the pokemon rather than player choice, it's kinda nixing the point of classes in most RPGs-You know, where you can decide what role whatever character you create will be. Basically, because the type determines the class rather than the player, everyone knows what "class" some pokemon will be and it's really not all that different from just raising everyone's stats according to some scheme.

Rather I think you should build on the available "psuedoclass" stuff right now determined by EVs (e.g. Fast Special Sweeper, Physical Tank, bulky support, etc) and give pokemon new moves based on their EV distribution.

 

[nv]

So... at the risk of being captain buzzkill here, the thing you're trying to figure out is kinda flawed here.

You said this:


But you did this:


Since it's coupled to the design of the pokemon rather than player choice, it's kinda nixing the point of classes in most RPGs-You know, where you can decide what role whatever character you create will be. Basically, because the type determines the class rather than the player, everyone knows what "class" some pokemon will be and it's really not all that different from just raising everyone's stats according to some scheme.

Rather I think you should build on the available "psuedoclass" stuff right now determined by EVs (e.g. Fast Special Sweeper, Physical Tank, bulky support, etc) and give pokemon new moves based on their EV distribution.

While this idea is really cool, it was determined that giving certain moves would make this another "ESpeed-oriented" meta or something similar. I am willing to hear this idea out if you have exact specifics as to how and why certain EV spreads get certain moves (but as I stated tread lightly as this was initially deemed "meh" in the submission stage).

EDIT: You know what? Not to seem mean, but as I stated earlier, I am not changing this any more so instead of discussing how my OM should be something, why not discuss how it benefits or hinders certain Pokemon, playstyles, and so on with this new mechanic in place.
Idk why I typed what I typed in the striked out text...guess I was distracted :/

 

[Agile Turtle]

So... at the risk of being captain buzzkill here, the thing you're trying to figure out is kinda flawed here.

You said this:


But you did this:


Since it's coupled to the design of the pokemon rather than player choice, it's kinda nixing the point of classes in most RPGs-You know, where you can decide what role whatever character you create will be. Basically, because the type determines the class rather than the player, everyone knows what "class" some pokemon will be and it's really not all that different from just raising everyone's stats according to some scheme.

Rather I think you should build on the available "psuedoclass" stuff right now determined by EVs (e.g. Fast Special Sweeper, Physical Tank, bulky support, etc) and give pokemon new moves based on their EV distribution.

You should honestly just flesh this out and submit it as an entirely different meta.

Also there is literally one pokemon with a primary flying type (not counting arceus and both torn forms). So that's a bit silly.

 

[Delibird Mafia]

Just got into D&D type stuff and this sounds really cool. It would also be interesting if the classes gave boosts to different types of moves. Like Soldier boosting physical attacks, Mage boosting special attacks, Healer boosting support moves (long tail winds, stronger Wish-passing, stronger screens) and Rogue boosting status conditions (higher chances of burn, poison, freeze, etc).