SM OU Defiant Dual-Shock

[snaildelagate]

Defiant Dual-Shock

Introduction

​

So recently I've been pretty bored trying to teambuild in this meta since the ladder is pretty not fun to play right now so I thought I might as well drop this team for a rate. With this team I decided to see how good of a team I could run without defog support. This team ended up being a very HO built around defiant thundy-T.

Teambuilding process

This team started with the idea of using Defiant Thundurus since Bisharp is much more difficult to use Thundy is the next best thing to punish defogs.

Landorous was then added for the SR support Thundy needed and because its explosion hits super hard and can break any defoggers who choose to stay in on Thundy.

Keldeo was then added since its a strong wallbreaker with a great speed tier who draws in all the defoggers that Thundy enjoys abusing: The Latis, Fini and Mantine all find Keldeo to be an easy switch-in.

I wanted a revenge killer who could beat up Ferrothorn and I hadn't used scarf Pheromosa at all yet in the metagame.

I need an answer to powerful special ice type moves and Tapu Lele so I added AV Magearna who's slow volt turns were definitely appreciated.

Tapu Lele offered a way to deal with Scizor and psychic terrain helped Pheromosa but honestly this was a bad pick with the way the team was set up

I'll start with the simple one despite being more obvious and less powerful the speed Azelf provides allows me to more easily set up rocks and guarantee their set up vs. stall which is crucial to the matchup. At the same time I got rid of Magearna who didn't fit on the HO vision that I was building now for Scarfchomp which freed Pheromosa to move to a Quiver Dance set.

I wasn't happy about being forced to run Tapu Lele for Phero support since it provided relatively little to the team. So I had to get rid of Phero and Lele at once and decided to grab Tapu Koko and Mega Meta. Metagross provided a check to powerful psychic type moves and Tapu Koko to speed creep greninja and because Koko really appreciates Thundy luring in and KOing its checks like Defensive Lando.

It wasn't worth running Keldeo when Ash-Ninja provides a nice offensive pivoting core with Koko while also performing Keldeo's role of drawing in Fini but without having to deal with Mega-Gross being able to check and KO you thanks to Ash-Ninja's speed tier.

Apologies about that taking so long so lets get to the team!

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe | Jolly Nature
Stealth Rock | Explosion | Skill Swap | Taunt
Azelf is a covenant with the Pokegods, the deal is that if you use Azelf you use a slot solely to guarantee that you get SR up while your opponent does not. There is not much to say about this set since its pretty well known. One of my favorite parts of Azelf is that it draws in Scarf Lando thinking they can U-Turn while I taunt then KO me with priority to stop me form setting rocks, but I just set up SR everytime even if they set their own and knowing whether I'm facing Scarf Lando allows me to protect Tapu Koko way easier.

Thundurus @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpD / 252 Spe | Jolly Nature
Knock Off | Fly | Wild Charge | Superpower
Onto the MVP of this team Defiant Physical Thundurus, Thundurus is an amazing balance and stallbreaker with this moveset. Since this set is very rare and it has incredible coverage most teams don't have a good switch-in to Thundurus. Thundurus alongside hazard support from Azelf bends stall backwards and on top of that cannot be trapped by Dugtrio. Since, Quagsire is rarely seen on stall these days it just goes to town on these teams and opens the way for Tapu Koko and Greninja to clean up. Thundurus has a 50/50 to OHKO Defensive Lando (since it gets plus 1 on switch in thanks to defiant) and only really has trouble with Rotom Wash on Balance who is much rarer these days. Thundy does get revenge killed fairly easily by the omnipresent Greninja and Tapu Koko but by then its already done its job and opened up a hole for Tapu Koko to pressure the opposing team. Thundurus's Z-Fly also chunks Scolipede for half its HP even on a protect which allows me to break Scolipass with ease.

Hey Whats with this weird Sp. Def Investment?
This investment allows Thundy to survive a LO Pheromosa Ice Beam or a Specs Greninja Dark Pulse + SR and a have fairly high chance to survive a Specs Hydro Pump from full which allows me to lure these threats and KO them when they attempt to revenge kill thundurus.

Ash Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | Timid Nature
U-turn | Hydro Pump | Dark Pulse | Water Shuriken
I've already talked a bit about the dual purpose of Specs Greninja on this team. Specs Greninja both draws in Tapu Fini and other water types who Thundurus abuses but also revenge kills weakened threats and forces switchs which allows me to U-turn to gain momentum. Tapu Koko + Greninja is a fairly common offensive core since they are able to continually force switches through U-Turn and rack up SR damage.

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | Timid Nature
U-turn | Volt Switch | Thunderbolt | Hidden Power Ice
Tapu Koko is the second part of my Volt Turn Core with Greninja. I chose life orb since it allows me to KO more easily despite the damage to myself on U-Turn. I chose not to include Brave Bird since Thundurus does a pretty good job of luring in and KOing its main target: Tangrowth. Instead Volt Switch allows me to obtain more powerful momentum once the opposing teams ground types are KOed which again Thundurus assists with. Tapu Koko makes a very nice cleaner against more offensive teams and only has to worry about Pheromosa.

Mega Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | Jolly Nature
Meteor Mash | Bullet Punch | Ice Punch | Earthquake Hammer Arm
Oh hey look its Mr. OU himself Mega Metagross. Metagross is just a generally fantastic pokemon who assists with dealing with Tapu Lele + Pheromosa offense teams. Agility is a really underrated move and despite giving up some coverage to use it allows Metagross to be a stop to offensive teams and volt turn shenanigans. The Team Archetypes such as Tapu Lele + Phero or Mega Zam offensive teams have not been as prominent on ladder as before and as I result I felt comfortable swapping out Agility for Bullet Punch since setting up an agility is difficult and Bullet Punch assists in dealing with Pheromosa who has been much more popular. Since I'm not planning to use Agility all the time I decided to keep with Jolly since one of mega metagross's main selling points is its nice speed tier. Ice Punch breaks Landorous and Earthquake kills Heatran and other Metagross. Hammer Arm is better at pressuring Ferrothorn who is a nessecary pokemon to wittle down and other Metagross aren't that dangerous given that I run multiple mons that outspeed them. I don't feel the need for zen headbutt since its primary target: Keldeo isn't a threat to the rest of the team.

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | Naive Jolly Nature
Earthquake | Outrage | Rock Slide | Fire Blast
Scarf Garchomp is a my required revenge killer and deals with DD-Zard, Mence and Mega Pinsir who otherwise can stop the rest of the team without a fight. Garchomp also cleans pretty well and can use Rough Skin to break sashes if I'm desperately needing a revenge kill. Fire Blast is there for if I really need a Ferrothorn dead. Garchomps typing and bulk allow him to deal with a lot of priority that would otherwise stop him from revenge killing.

Conclusion + Threatlist + Importable

This is by far my favorite team I've built currently and I feel that Defiant Thundurus is massively underrated and can provide a unique team support unlike any other pokemon in the tier. This team turned out pretty well I haven't gotten a chance to really ladder hard with it and probably won't for a while due to how busy I'm going to be getting. Thanks for reading and feel free to use this team if you want, let me know how it goes!

Threatlist

I don't like Spikes and I don't have an easy way of KOing Ferrothorn Thundurus can chunk it with Superpower but it is probably the biggest wall in the way of this team that you can see at preview.

Ash Greninja is a large threat due to its speed tier and the fact that this team doesn't carry any water resists. Due to this fact Greninja users are oftentimes overeager to get Greninja's form changed so they attempt to revenge thundurus which gets them KOed in return due to sp. def investment. Otherwise its just a matter pressuring Greninja out multiple times during a match.

Like with Greninja, Scarf Gengar is able to outspeed and pressure my team especially with Shadow Ball who only Greninja resists (and greninja isn't exactly bulky)

Trick Room
This is a HO team which means that it Auto Loses to Trick Room its just part of the territory.

This is it off the top of my head but I'm sure there are others

Importable

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Skill Swap
- Taunt

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Agility
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm

Thundurus @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Fly
- Wild Charge
- Superpower

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530147783 vs. Stall
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530427408 basically a thundurus showcase
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530714840 vs. Balance (thundy special defense investment shows off)

 

[JTD783]

I checked out this thread only to remember playing against this a couple days ago and losing (I was the stall guy). gg man.

Despite a few misplays on my end, I thought I played fairly well overall and your team was very hard to handle. It clearly showed how Z Thundurus baits and kills Chansey so Koko and Gren can go nuts. Stall doesn't have much to deal with electric spam aside from Dugtrio (lol HP Ice) and Quagsire (not that good atm), so it's tough for stall to deal with once Chansey goes down. Getting rid of Azelf's rocks isn't easy for Skarmory/Zapdos to do because of the insane offensive pressure.

Anyways...

I agree that Ferrothorn looks annoying to face, and I think the easiest fix is to run Hammer Arm over Rock Polish. This hits Ferro very hard and still hits steels hard. RP is fun but your team seems to match up well versus Offense/Hyper Offense on paper, so I don't think RP is needed. Since Hammer Arm and Earthquake are somewhat redundant, I suggest running Zen Headbutt/Thunder Punch over Earthquake. Zen Headbutt gives you another way of beating Mega Venusaur, which walls everything bar Z Fly Thundurus. Thunder Punch is mostly for Skarmory and Celesteela, which will always be afraid of Thundy and Koko but usually feel comfortable coming in against Mega Metagross, allowing them to Defog or Leech Seed respectively. This helps you keep up hazards and keep momentum in your favor, which is extremely important for any HO team.

If bulky grounds are annoying then Grass Knot over Knock Off on Thundurus could work, but I don't know if this change is necessary. You don't lose much other than being a little more weak to Alolan Marowak, but that's not much of an issue for this team regardless.

Spikes can be annoying but I think running a spinner would be too much of a momentum sap. It's just something to play around so that your opponent can't get up their layers.

Trick Room is, well, tricky. Greninja can eat 1 hit from Alolan Marowak I think, and Mega Metagross can check standard OTR Magearna. Leading Azelf and Taunting (twice if they have mental herb) is probably your best option, and keeping Azelf alive to come back in and Taunt later can help you pull through.

Congrats on the win and your solid build. It worked very well.

-JTD

 

[Anish]

Hi snaildelagate,

Cool team, and I love the concept of using Knock Off Defiant Thundurus to lure in Pokémon like Chansey over here, especially since it can bluff a special set very easily over here, unlike other Defiant Thundurus teams, where running Spikes may make him suspicious about your moveset. I also like using offensive Volt Switchers and U turners to gain momentum and pressure him using Stealth Rocks. The team is slightly weak to Ferrothorn and Rotom Wash, however, as you had mentioned in the analysis. Ash Greninja could be very annoying, if Garchomp is weakened into Shuriken range, as well. The team in general is very solid, but I have a couple of tweaks that might let it deal with the threats a bit more effectively, while not compromising versus other threats too badly.

My first suggestion would be to run Hammer Arm > Earthquake on Mega Metagross. Hammer Arm may feel a little suboptimal with Rock Polish on the same set, due to the speed drop, but it manages to hit Ferrothorn harder, and wear down Rotom Wash as it is a 3HKO on it, as well as managing to OHKO Ash Greninja after a RP, which could be very irritating. Additionally, even after a Rock Polish and a Hammer Arm, Mega Metagross would only get outsped by scarf Pheromosa and speed tie Scarf Gengar after a Hammer Arm. You would also only need to click Hammer Arm with Mega Metagross on either very annoying threats like Ferrothorn, which could pave the way for something else like a Tapu Koko or a Greninja sweep, after which you could sack a Pokemon, or a Pokemon like Heatran who a lot of your team can pressure and you can double out while making a middle ground play. Also, Metagross does take a hit from Scarf Pheromosa if at full HP, and if Metagross was not needed as much, having a 50% chance to kill Scarf Gengar would not work out too badly, as it is one of the largest threats to your team. This change also makes opposing Mega Metagross much more annoying, however, you have 2 soft checks in Scarf Garchomp and Ash Greninja, all your mons at least speed tie with Mega Metagross, and it doesn't not come onto anything on your team well at all, so you can pressure it fairly decently.

Secondly I would suggest running Dragon Claw > Outrage on Garchomp and run a Jolly Nature. On an hyper offensive team being locked into a 2-3 turn move is not really optimal, and may often lead to you having to lose your momentum. Although the power loss is pretty notable, meaning you do have to rely on EQ a bit more for rolls, you can punish a lot of Flying types using your dual Electric core, and lure in fat Grasses, while your team really wants momentum . You also have to rely on damage rolls versus Greninja after rocks, which is irritating, but you can pressure his hazard removers with Thundurus, and not let him get the Defog up easily if at all, and in a worst case scenario, you can force it out with Water Shruiken, however he probably should not be risking Greninja anyway, and even with Outrage clicking it could be a huge risk to you, in case he switches out and then weakens you into Water Shruiken range. Running a Jolly Nature on Garchomp prevents extremely threatening Pokemon like Scarf Gengar from 2HKOing it with Shadow Ball before rocks , and largely reduces the chance of it getting killed after rocks. It also reduces the damage rolls of Water Shruiken from Greninja by 7% which could be extremely hand late game. You still manage to get 2HKOs on Scizor Mega and Ferrothorn here, and while you do need rocks for the 2HKO on Skarmory, Azelf can get rocks versus stall and you can pressure Skarmory using your dual electric core, which appreciate the free switch in. You could still keep Fire Blast however, as doing a bit more to Celesteela isnt needed here either, and not taking chip from Iron Barbs also helps versus Ferrothorn in late game situations.

Ash Greninja is one of the largest threats to this team on paper, as you do not have a water resist, choosing to pressure them using Grasses. In order to deal with it you should pressure it aggressively, and try to bait it in through Hammer Arm from Mega Metagross. Additionally, you should try to keep Scarf Garchomp as healthy as possible, in order to check it. In late game scenarios you could also reveal Rock Polish, which could catch him off guard. Scarf Gengar is very irritating as well and you should try to not let get in for free. Additionally, you should aim to get Greninja into its Ash form so it can threaten it with Water Shruiken in worst case scenarios, and try to use Garchomp to force it out, but not hard switch Garchomp in unless you absolutely need too, since it almost gets 2HKOd by Shadow Ball. Ferrothorn is still annoying, but you can weaken it down, if it keeps switching into Greninja's Dark Pulse and Tapu Koko's Thunderbolt and three of your Pokemon can lure it in or force it out. Mega Venusaur is a huge threat, but you can try to lure it in using Thundurus , and use Mega Metagross to force it out, as it will lose out the PP from Synthesis, while taking 45% from Meteor Mash which has a chance to boost your attack. Additionally, if it has to switch in to Pokemon like Greninja's Dark Pulse and Garchomp's Earthquake, it often needs to click Synthesis after taking a hit, in order to switch in to Greninja next time, allowing you to gain momentum while forcing it out.

Team after my Changes

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Skill Swap
- Taunt

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Agility
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm

Thundurus @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Fly
- Wild Charge
- Superpower

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken

 

[JTD783]

AnishSomani

I think Outrage is fine; Dragon Claw is definitely more spammable but Outrage is great for the late-game situations Scarfchomp thrives in. It isn't exactly meant as a revenge killer, but if the scenario arises, it can KO +1 Zard X, Scarf Lele, +1 Mega Gyarados, etc with EQ, and +1 Dragonite and +1 Gyarados/Salamence should drop to Rock Slide assuming they've taken prior damage.

The power that Outrage provides is very good for cleaning in the late game and I think the downfall of getting locked won't be a disadvantage in most situations. It's personal preference though, and in the end I think either move will suffice.

 

[Anish]

JTD783

I agree that Outrage is fine in most cases, but on a Hyper Offensive team being locked into a move really causes the loss of momentum

 

[snaildelagate]

I checked out this thread only to remember playing against this a couple days ago and losing (I was the stall guy). gg man.

Despite a few misplays on my end, I thought I played fairly well overall and your team was very hard to handle. It clearly showed how Z Thundurus baits and kills Chansey so Koko and Gren can go nuts. Stall doesn't have much to deal with electric spam aside from Dugtrio (lol HP Ice) and Quagsire (not that good atm), so it's tough for stall to deal with once Chansey goes down. Getting rid of Azelf's rocks isn't easy for Skarmory/Zapdos to do because of the insane offensive pressure.

Anyways...

I agree that Ferrothorn looks annoying to face, and I think the easiest fix is to run Hammer Arm over Rock Polish. This hits Ferro very hard and still hits steels hard. RP is fun but your team seems to match up well versus Offense/Hyper Offense on paper, so I don't think RP is needed. Since Hammer Arm and Earthquake are somewhat redundant, I suggest running Zen Headbutt/Thunder Punch over Earthquake. Zen Headbutt gives you another way of beating Mega Venusaur, which walls everything bar Z Fly Thundurus. Thunder Punch is mostly for Skarmory and Celesteela, which will always be afraid of Thundy and Koko but usually feel comfortable coming in against Mega Metagross, allowing them to Defog or Leech Seed respectively. This helps you keep up hazards and keep momentum in your favor, which is extremely important for any HO team.

If bulky grounds are annoying then Grass Knot over Knock Off on Thundurus could work, but I don't know if this change is necessary. You don't lose much other than being a little more weak to Alolan Marowak, but that's not much of an issue for this team regardless.

Spikes can be annoying but I think running a spinner would be too much of a momentum sap. It's just something to play around so that your opponent can't get up their layers.

Trick Room is, well, tricky. Greninja can eat 1 hit from Alolan Marowak I think, and Mega Metagross can check standard OTR Magearna. Leading Azelf and Taunting (twice if they have mental herb) is probably your best option, and keeping Azelf alive to come back in and Taunt later can help you pull through.

Congrats on the win and your solid build. It worked very well.

-JTD

Thanks for the rate! I completely forgot about Hammer Arm as an option and it definitely would be fantastic coverage for Mega Metagross. I like to keep knock off just because its spammable and is the main reason I'm able to beat stall since Knock Off breaks chansey. Grass Knot would mostly be for Hippowdon who isn't altogether that common (though he is a serious a pain in the rear) since Z-Fly takes care of Gastrodon. Trick Room is just a moot point honestly theres no way to beat it with a HO team like this :P. The Scarf Phero I tested before ran Rapid Spin but my team isn't really weak to hazards the only pokemon really bothered by them is Tapu Koko who gets worn down pretty easily. I like Agility on Mega Gross but Thunderpunch and Zen Headbutt also seem like great options I think Defiant Thundy is a lot more functional of a breaker of bulky Grasses than its given credit for so I think Agility is what I'm going to with since against HO and balance teams its easy to keep your scarfer in the back as a counter and Agility completely breaks teams that think they can countersweep with something like Scarf Garchomp or Scarf Gengar.

Hi snaildelagate,

Cool team, and I love the concept of using Knock Off Defiant Thundurus to lure in Pokémon like Chansey over here, especially since it can bluff a special set very easily over here, unlike other Defiant Thundurus teams, where running Spikes may make him suspicious about your moveset. I also like using offensive Volt Switchers and U turners to gain momentum and pressure him using Stealth Rocks. The team is slightly weak to Ferrothorn and Rotom Wash, however, as you had mentioned in the analysis. Ash Greninja could be very annoying, if Garchomp is weakened into Shuriken range, as well. The team in general is very solid, but I have a couple of tweaks that might let it deal with the threats a bit more effectively, while not compromising versus other threats too badly.

My first suggestion would be to run Hammer Arm > Earthquake on Mega Metagross. Hammer Arm may feel a little suboptimal with Rock Polish on the same set, due to the speed drop, but it manages to hit Ferrothorn harder, and wear down Rotom Wash as it is a 3HKO on it, as well as managing to OHKO Ash Greninja after a RP, which could be very irritating. Additionally, even after a Rock Polish and a Hammer Arm, Mega Metagross would only get outsped by scarf Pheromosa and speed tie Scarf Gengar after a Hammer Arm. You would also only need to click Hammer Arm with Mega Metagross on either very annoying threats like Ferrothorn, which could pave the way for something else like a Tapu Koko or a Greninja sweep, after which you could sack a Pokemon, or a Pokemon like Heatran who a lot of your team can pressure and you can double out while making a middle ground play. Also, Metagross does take a hit from Scarf Pheromosa if at full HP, and if Metagross was not needed as much, having a 50% chance to kill Scarf Gengar would not work out too badly, as it is one of the largest threats to your team. This change also makes opposing Mega Metagross much more annoying, however, you have 2 soft checks in Scarf Garchomp and Ash Greninja, all your mons at least speed tie with Mega Metagross, and it doesn't not come onto anything on your team well at all, so you can pressure it fairly decently.

Secondly I would suggest running Dragon Claw > Outrage on Garchomp and run a Jolly Nature. On an hyper offensive team being locked into a 2-3 turn move is not really optimal, and may often lead to you having to lose your momentum. Although the power loss is pretty notable, meaning you do have to rely on EQ a bit more for rolls, you can punish a lot of Flying types using your dual Electric core, and lure in fat Grasses, while your team really wants momentum . You also have to rely on damage rolls versus Greninja after rocks, which is irritating, but you can pressure his hazard removers with Thundurus, and not let him get the Defog up easily if at all, and in a worst case scenario, you can force it out with Water Shruiken, however he probably should not be risking Greninja anyway, and even with Outrage clicking it could be a huge risk to you, in case he switches out and then weakens you into Water Shruiken range. Running a Jolly Nature on Garchomp prevents extremely threatening Pokemon like Scarf Gengar from 2HKOing it with Shadow Ball before rocks , and largely reduces the chance of it getting killed after rocks. It also reduces the damage rolls of Water Shruiken from Greninja by 7% which could be extremely hand late game. You still manage to get 2HKOs on Scizor Mega and Ferrothorn here, and while you do need rocks for the 2HKO on Skarmory, Azelf can get rocks versus stall and you can pressure Skarmory using your dual electric core, which appreciate the free switch in. You could still keep Fire Blast however, as doing a bit more to Celesteela isnt needed here either, and not taking chip from Iron Barbs also helps versus Ferrothorn in late game situations.

Ash Greninja is one of the largest threats to this team on paper, as you do not have a water resist, choosing to pressure them using Grasses. In order to deal with it you should pressure it aggressively, and try to bait it in through Hammer Arm from Mega Metagross. Additionally, you should try to keep Scarf Garchomp as healthy as possible, in order to check it. In late game scenarios you could also reveal Rock Polish, which could catch him off guard. Scarf Gengar is very irritating as well and you should try to not let get in for free. Additionally, you should aim to get Greninja into its Ash form so it can threaten it with Water Shruiken in worst case scenarios, and try to use Garchomp to force it out, but not hard switch Garchomp in unless you absolutely need too, since it almost gets 2HKOd by Shadow Ball. Ferrothorn is still annoying, but you can weaken it down, if it keeps switching into Greninja's Dark Pulse and Tapu Koko's Thunderbolt and three of your Pokemon can lure it in or force it out. Mega Venusaur is a huge threat, but you can try to lure it in using Thundurus , and use Mega Metagross to force it out, as it will lose out the PP from Synthesis, while taking 45% from Meteor Mash which has a chance to boost your attack. Additionally, if it has to switch in to Pokemon like Greninja's Dark Pulse and Garchomp's Earthquake, it often needs to click Synthesis after taking a hit, in order to switch in to Greninja next time, allowing you to gain momentum while forcing it out.

Team after my Changes

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Skill Swap
- Taunt

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Agility
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm

Thundurus @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Fly
- Wild Charge
- Superpower

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken

Thanks for the rate! Goddamn you hit the nail right on the head with that threatlist, Scarf Gengar is dangerous but give that I usually encounter it played on balance teams with Pokemon like Lando and Tangrowth my team can usually handle them despite the fact that it gets to spam its ghost stab for free. Opposing Ash Greninja are for sure the biggest threat to the team one thing I noticed is that they love to revenge kill and threaten Thundurus using dark pulse since its very spammable v. my team so I think that a possible solution is to drop about 48 evs in Sp.Def which guarantees a 2hko after SR or moderate wild charge residual, that way I can lure it and then revenge kill it since they will assume I'm running a standard mixed sets with a Naive nature. Though it is a fair amount of power to give up just for a lure that might work... sometimes. Ferro and Rotom-Wash just come with the territory but both are not very offensive and thus can be wittled thankfully.

With regards to Chomper I think that while Dragon Claw isn't as big of a momentum sink and Outrage oftentimes causes Garchomp to trade when revenge killing the power of Outrage gives me a better option to clean lategame against teams with a oftentimes weakened Lando. Outrage v. Dragon Claw is really matchup dependent since I have decent priority in Specs Greninja to clean up Zard after Dragon Claw with a little HP left. I'm gonna try this one out for a bit alongside the new Thundy spread and implement those changes if I like it!

Edit: Damn those 48 sp. def evs actually put in a lot of work they allow thundy to survive a LO Phero Ice Beam too. Though I still like Outrage better than Dragon Claw since it allows me to clean easier since outrage is a nice cleaning tool.

Here's a replay of it those Sp. Def Evs in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530714840

 

[SovereignC2]

Not really in the mood to try a deep analysis, but just wondering why you're running Skill Swap Azelf in a meta where Diancie isn't released, it's not even that great against Sableye since Gren is probably a better way to pressure it, and Fake Out will destroy your sash before you even Skill Swap it

It is to (almost) guarantee rocks

 

[Leo]

Well Focus Sash guarantee it already, and Fire Blast instead of Skill Swap can get some stuff on steels that'll take Explosion

Azelf is the suicide lead and therefore its whole job it to get up rocks and die. With Skill Swap you can lead something that threatens Sableye stay in on the Protect (Fake Out Sableye doesn't work anymore) and double into Azelf to Skill Swap Sableye on the switch and have 100% rocks. Even though this is very situational (only works against Stall) it doesn't really hurt Azelf because the only thing it has to do is set rocks.
Cool team btw, I build a very similar HO a while back when someone posted an electric spam core in the Cores thread, it was fun indeed and you've done a great job :)
Edit I think you should run GKnot>Superpower on Thund to break past Quag, Superpower hit Chansey and Ttar but Chansey gets blown by Z-Fly or Knock+Fly already and Ttar is very rare rn

 

[snaildelagate]

Azelf is the suicide lead and therefore its whole job it to get up rocks and die. With Skill Swap you can lead something that threatens Sableye stay in on the Protect (Fake Out Sableye doesn't work anymore) and double into Azelf to Skill Swap Sableye on the switch and have 100% rocks. Even though this is very situational (only works against Stall) it doesn't really hurt Azelf because the only thing it has to do is set rocks.
Cool team btw, I build a very similar HO a while back when someone posted an electric spam core in the Cores thread, it was fun indeed and you've done a great job :)
Edit I think you should run GKnot>Superpower on Thund to break past Quag, Superpower hit Chansey and Ttar but Chansey gets blown by Z-Fly or Knock+Fly already and Ttar is very rare rn

Thanks for the feedback and the explanation on Azelf! I disagree on Grass Knot > Superpower, Quagsire isn't as big of an issue as wearing down Ferrothorn since most comp. stall teams are opting for Clefable because of its ability to beat Sub+Coil Toxic Zygarde which is way more common of a Stallbreaker than Thundurus. Superpower also breaks Heatran who otherwise walls Thundy. T-Tar is also a more common switch-in to Thundy assuming its NP or T-wave 3 attacks and being able to break it can keep rocks permantely off my side of the field.

 

[streams]

Bet you never expected to get a rate like this lol. Our latest installment of rate my team was over your team!!!! Look for the video put on the smogon channel any day now (I will replace the link when that happens). The rate was from myself, and official TR Team Pokepals and Enki. Enjoy =)

The pastebin of the team is in the description of the video.

 

[busyguy]

Hi, I played a bit with the team and here is what worked best after a couple of games.

• change Koko to U-turn/ HP Fire/ Thunderbolt/ Dazzling Gleam, with HP Fire you hit annoying steels like Ferro or Scizor and Dazzling Gleam for the Ground-types which want to come in on Thunderbolt
• Ash Greninja to LO Greninja with HP Fire/ Ice Beam/ Hydro Pump/ Gunk Shot. HP Fire for Steels again, as they are really annoying to your team, the rest is standard coverage.
• Bullet Punch over Agility balances the loss of priority from Greninja and can deal with late game Pheromosa. It's difficult to set up with Metagross in the current meta anyway, and the team needs priority.

That's all, good luck !

 

[snaildelagate]

Bet you never expected to get a rate like this lol. Our latest installment of rate my team was over your team!!!! Look for the video put on the smogon channel any day now (I will replace the link when that happens). The rate was from myself, and official TR Team Pokepals and Enki. Enjoy =)

The pastebin of the team is in the description of the video.

Sorry, I was a bit busy and kind of forgot about this team until now, Thanks for the rate (the video rate was super awesome!), I actually was kinda confused about the changes you made on paper but once I tried out the team on ladder I really love the changes you made, Sash Garchomp is a really nice SR setter for the team and since the team doesn't pivot anymore it makes sense to not worry about SR as much. It honestly feels like an entirely different team albiet one that is definitely more effective from my experience using it. The only issue with the team is that on it Flynium-Z Thundurus doesn't really contribute very much to the team. Given he is still the teams only means of taking out Bulky Grasses he does not do so as effectively due to the team being unable to pivot in Greninja as effectively to lure in Fini or to pivot him in on Bulky Grass that used be sent out v. Koko. Now the team is for sure better than the team I had before and my ladder rank thanks you but at this point if I wanted to continue to make improvements to the team I'd have to change Thundy to a mixed set of some kind and pass the Z-crystal to Bulu as you guys talked about in the rate or drop him altogether for something that can switch in to bulky grasses to wear them down (AV Torn-T comes to mind for me since it also doesn't stack many weaknesses and gives me a check to Phero in the process) given that this team doesn't pivot as easily as the old defiant dualshock. For that reason even though I love this team and I'm definitely going to use it a whole lot when I ladder in the future but I'm not going to adopt the changes in the OP since its they're such radical changes to the team and since I really want a team that makes good use of Defiant Fly-Z Thundy even though it certainly isn't as good as the team you guys came up with. Thanks again for the rate!

Hi, I played a bit with the team and here is what worked best after a couple of games.

• change Koko to U-turn/ HP Fire/ Thunderbolt/ Dazzling Gleam, with HP Fire you hit annoying steels like Ferro or Scizor and Dazzling Gleam for the Ground-types which want to come in on Thunderbolt
• Ash Greninja to LO Greninja with HP Fire/ Ice Beam/ Hydro Pump/ Gunk Shot. HP Fire for Steels again, as they are really annoying to your team, the rest is standard coverage.
• Bullet Punch over Agility balances the loss of priority from Greninja and can deal with late game Pheromosa. It's difficult to set up with Metagross in the current meta anyway, and the team needs priority.

That's all, good luck !

Thanks for the rate! I actually agree with the Bullet Punch change I've been less interested in agility since this team is basically already built to outrun a lot of things and the archetypes I wanted to beat with agility have really fallen out favor. I agree that its probably smart to swap Koko's set to include HP fire and swapping Dazzling Gleam in as well, since defensive Defog Scizor is really rising in prominence and it helps me to punish Excadrill who finds Koko to be a spinning oppurtunity (I'm gonna try this set out a bit more on ladder before I make a final decision since while it may be better its a bit harder for me to wrap my head around since I have to play around Lando a lot more without HP Ice) also as another means of dealing with Ferrothorn. While I like Protean Greninja I'm not sure that it is the right fit for this team give I've already delegated the lure role to Thundurus and I feel like by doing so I lose out on my strongest late game win con and it feels a bit redundant packing HP fire on both Greninja and Koko since while steels are annoying making this changes means I have major difficulties dealing with Mega-Meta who I used to be able to cleanly dark pulse with Ash-Gren.

(Sorry to the mods that I'm kind of reviving what is a pretty much a long dead thread but I really wanted to respond to these rates since I feel bad I did not do so earlier)