Dodge

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JJayyFeather

JJayyFeather

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Elevator Music said:
can we remove the cap on dodge? its unviable as is (as you can tell by the fact nobody ever uses it), but removing the cap would give it a useful niche for some fastmons.

#buffculture
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Quick discussion because I do think this topic warrants a bit more discussion before taking to a vote.

A couple core questions to work from:
1) What Pokemon really benefit from this change?
2) Do we actually want to promote use of Dodge?
 
1) What Pokemon really benefit from this change?
Incredibly fast Pokemon, such as Deoxys-S, Ninjask, and Raichi-A under Surge Surfer, and probably only against much slower opponents, such as Camerupt, Snorlax, or Conkeldurr.

2) Do we actually want to promote the use of Dodge?
Dodge on these fast Pokemon can act as a trade-off to Protect:
Dodge: Low EN, but a chance to still be hit. Plus, spread moves still hit no matter what.
Protect: High EN use, but a guaranteed protection from damage.
On a side note, Dodge can completely avoid a Z-Move's damage, as opposed to only blocking 75% of it.
With these trade-offs, Dodge can become a niche P/E move for extremely fast, and subsequently frail, Pokemon, in certain situations to avoid certain moves. I'm okay with that niche, as Protect will and should always be the go-to P/E move. After all, subs still exist, the opposing Pokemon can just use Earthquake, or Surf, or some other spread move, and push back.
 
this change is so minute in the first place that i think we should just say yes and be done because these (especially ninjask) aren't pokemon that are going to be used all over the place anyways

Only certain few people have deoxys and frankly it has better things to do than abuse dodge lmao

As dogfish pointed out on discord
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish44 said:
As a note: Dodge is difficult to cap out :P. One of the fastest (post-ability) mons in the game (Raichu-A) can barely get 100% dodge vs base 80s if it's +spe, surge surfer is active, and the opponent is para'd.
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ninjask is bug/flying type. i think we all know what that means for his viability :|
 
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Fwiw, I hit the Dodge cap with a Trick Room Reuniclus vs. Speed Boost Blaziken once. But that is also absurdly specific so...
 
This is a stupid idea. Losing games to 40% dodge chances are infuriating enough (hi dogfish)

Just because a mon can't get 100% dodge chance doesnt mean its good. Literal 60% dodge breaks every power combo opportunity in half
 
Counter to Granny Pie's "subs still exist" argument - the fact that you need to set aside 1 Sub for Dodge (since it's not included in the P/E clause) is, I think, a very powerful advantage to being fast.

If I were to hazard a guess as to why Dodge exists since ASB's creation, it would be that Dodge is intended as an adherence to the anime, and competitively as a non-reliable last resort at defensive maneuvers when all else (P/E, Substitute, Endure) proved impossible. And to further hazard my guess, I'll be putting the emphasis on "non-reliable", therefore I'd be against a 100% cap. Or any cap above 60%, since I'm personally benchmarking against Serene Grace flinches.

I would be amenable to tweaking the formula to ensure Dodge is able to fulfil the niche I just mentioned above, though. Just saying, I personally disagree that your mon's Size Class has so much weight on your Dodge chances. I'll probably propose some numbers when I've done more lookups into Size Class and Speed distributions...
 
nobody used dodge when it was implemented, only as last ditch move to escape what is supposed to be impending doom. 5 years and a buff later, it is still the case.

What makes you think that dodge will suddenly become something on the metagame, other than an irritating hax-inducer? The previous cap removal was largely unneeded and didn't change a thing (certainly didn't improve anything). Removing the cap alltogether tend to have the same if not worse results, as apart from encore, all uses of dodge are what I would qualify as "unhealthy" as in, ways to make a player that is supposed to be losing to get some kind of unwarranted upperhand, as it involves luck of not only getting a favourable rng roll, but also a favourable matchup (since size doesn't mean a thing in actual battles). Setting up a favourable dodge situation doesn't involve an upperhand in skill and it is foolish how we continue to give buffs to something that benefits not the best player, but the luckiest one (again: lucky to get a good roll and lucky to pair small fast mon to big slow mon).

tl;dr:
Texas said:
This is a stupid idea. Losing games to 40% dodge chances are infuriating enough (hi dogfish)
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Pointing it out before someone else cherry picks it, the only non-"fuck you" use of Dodge atm is Encore. But otherwise, I agree 300% with what Frosty and Texas have said, because honestly, fuck promoting RNG
 
Also disagreeing to that. Encore doesnt need its usability left up to "is your opponent dumb enough not to sub for it."
 
No, no, I actually agree with that, encore is the most powerful move in the game because guaranteeing what your opponent will do is insanely powerful. Don't give it a 1% minimum but do set the Dodge floor to 0% so that it can never fail, even if it also can't succeed

It's entirely arbitrary that mons with like 60+ base speed can reliably play around encore in a mediocre way but mons with 30 base are completely fucked
 
Yeah seriously I don't really care one way or the other about changing the cap, but let's make it so there's a floor of 0% and that it can never just fail. Dodge is one of the only reliable ways to get around Encore (which is pretty broken as is), and it's just unnecessary bad design that slow mons don't have access to it.
 
JJayyFeather said:
Also disagreeing to that. Encore doesnt need its usability left up to "is your opponent dumb enough not to sub for it."
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encore doesn't need any sort of help whatsoever. at all. none.
at all.

EDIT at below: yes. encore on its own is more than enough to justify dodge's existence imo.
 
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how does removing the cap make dodge more luck based? the current cap is 75%. if youre using dodge in a situation where its only taking off 50% acc, this change has nothing to so with that. if anything, I think removing cap in the few situations where it applies makes the game less luck based?

if we think dodge is an unhealthy command due to the luck component then lets just remove it altogether. yea yea yea its ok against encore, is that worth having it?
 
*revives*

I agree with Emma - removing the cap only impacts cases in which Dodge is substantially stronger than Double Team anyway. I see no sound logic to not remove the cap, as long as we're not increasing the natural dodge rate. Removing the cap would not make me less likely to pull bullshit with it (vs Texas wasn't even the worst, I think my worst involved 1%, my Electivire, and a Lucario?)

Whilst we're on the topic though, can we make Dodge not fucking moronic with regards to 'failing', given how strict that term generally is in ASB? The current usage implies that, if I happen to be fighting a +6 +Spe Ninjask (1012 Speed), a -Spe Shuckle (4 Speed), then having a, say, Grumpig (80 Speed) use Dodge is in a quantum state, where it has both succeeded in using the move (vs Shuckle) and failed in doing so (vs Ninjask).

I agree with the general sentiment of removing the bottom cap in some form btw.
 
Dogfish44 said:
*revives*

I agree with Emma - removing the cap only impacts cases in which Dodge is substantially stronger than Double Team anyway. I see no sound logic to not remove the cap, as long as we're not increasing the natural dodge rate. Removing the cap would not make me less likely to pull bullshit with it (vs Texas wasn't even the worst, I think my worst involved 1%, my Electivire, and a Lucario?)

Whilst we're on the topic though, can we make Dodge not fucking moronic with regards to 'failing', given how strict that term generally is in ASB? The current usage implies that, if I happen to be fighting a +6 +Spe Ninjask (1012 Speed), a -Spe Shuckle (4 Speed), then having a, say, Grumpig (80 Speed) use Dodge is in a quantum state, where it has both succeeded in using the move (vs Shuckle) and failed in doing so (vs Ninjask).

I agree with the general sentiment of removing the bottom cap in some form btw.
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the proposed solution of minimum 0% dodge (And thus the move always succeeding) would solve the issue you mentioned with ninjask/shuckle
I agree with putting a hard floor of 0% on dodge
 
Regarding the "removing the cap will make the metagame more luck-based" argument.

I never said that btw.

My point is: there is a humongous chance that removing the upper cap won't produce any effect on the metagame (aka it will be useless). AND if somehow it produces an effect (a minor or extremely situational one), it will be without a doubt a harmful effect, as any situation you would use dodge into is one I'd qualify as "unhealthy use". So why on earth would we discuss a change that best case scenario won't change a thing and worst case scenario will procude harmful effect (albeit minor ones)? Just some weird OCD (which seems to be the reasoning behind more changes than I'd hope for)? This is the quintessential waste of time.

As for removing it alltogether, having a counter to encore justifies its existence entirely. If you were to remove that tidbit, you can bet I would be advocating to removing it alltogether, as its purposed uses are shitty, unhealthy and quite frankly dangerous to the metagame. We were lucky it failed to provide any proper splash to the way things rolls.
 
Well, it seems we've rehashed our arguments a few times now. Unless people have additional points to add, I'm calling a 48-hour window, likely a bit more, before adjournment to Voting.

EDIT: Okay that was a bit more than a bit more.

Vote Slate said:
Q1. Should the cap of Dodge chance (currently 75%) be removed?
a) Yes
b) No, don't touch it

Q2. Should a floor be added to the Dodge formula?
a) Yes, screw Encore
b) No, I love Encore

IF Q2 gets a "Yes"....

Q3. Which floor percentage suggested in the Discussion is appropriate?
a) 1%
b) 0%
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