I commonly find that Scizor attracts Intimidate very easy, so when Rotom-W comes onto the field, who is commonly paired with Landoge, it is usually at +1 instead of +2. But you are right.
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Doubles Viability Rankings (C- Votes if u care lol)
- Thread starter Lolk
- Start date
Stratos
Banned deucer.
all right it's clear that tribal council is over which means that it is: time to vote
A- Nominations:
Excadrill
Hitmontop
Scrafty
Genesect
Ludicolo
Conkeldurr
Latios
Breloom
Shaymin-S
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A
Heatran down to A
Gengar up to A
Pinsir up to A
Bisharp up to A
A- Nominations:
Excadrill
Hitmontop
Scrafty
Genesect
Ludicolo
Conkeldurr
Latios
Breloom
Shaymin-S
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A
Heatran down to A
Gengar up to A
Pinsir up to A
Bisharp up to A
A- Nominations:
Excadrill No
Hitmontop No
Scrafty Yes
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo Yes
Conkeldurr Yes
Latios Yes
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations:
Tyranitar down to A No
Heatran down to A Yes
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A No
Bisharp up to A Yes
Excadrill No
Hitmontop No
Scrafty Yes
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo Yes
Conkeldurr Yes
Latios Yes
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations:
Tyranitar down to A No
Heatran down to A Yes
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A No
Bisharp up to A Yes
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A- Nominations:
Excadrill Yes
Hitmontop Yes
Scrafty Yes
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo No
Conkeldurr Yes
Latios Yes
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A Yes
Heatran down to A No
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A No
Bisharp up to A Yes
Excadrill Yes
Hitmontop Yes
Scrafty Yes
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo No
Conkeldurr Yes
Latios Yes
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A Yes
Heatran down to A No
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A No
Bisharp up to A Yes
A- Nominations:
Excadrill Yes
Hitmontop Yes
Scrafty No
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo Yes
Conkeldurr Yes
Latios Yes
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A Yes
Heatran down to A Yes
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A Yes
Bisharp up to A Yes
Most people are agreeing on some such as conk, but there are others who still have a chance. Scrafty is amazing imo, extremely bulky, nice moveset that can hot anything not named azumaril, but it is a huge sitting duck when burnt and can barely 2hko mega gengar without burn (ive been seeing a lot of these recently
edit: somehow misread ttar shift, so changed my vote
Excadrill Yes
Hitmontop Yes
Scrafty No
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo Yes
Conkeldurr Yes
Latios Yes
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A Yes
Heatran down to A Yes
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A Yes
Bisharp up to A Yes
Most people are agreeing on some such as conk, but there are others who still have a chance. Scrafty is amazing imo, extremely bulky, nice moveset that can hot anything not named azumaril, but it is a huge sitting duck when burnt and can barely 2hko mega gengar without burn (ive been seeing a lot of these recently
edit: somehow misread ttar shift, so changed my vote
Last edited:
A- Nominations:
Excadrill Yes You need dedicated teams to make it succeed. That is a B rank quality. Its success on those teams keeps it afloat in A- imo
Hitmontop Yes :'( poor guy
Scrafty No Really great mon. I posted the bulk calcs compared to Hitmontop earlier and I still believe the bulk discrepancy makes a huge difference.
Genesect Yes It is slightly drifting into "I feel like using it bc I can" territory just because of how many other viable options there are for wide coverage attackers
Ludicolo abstain Eh... it lacks BST a bit I guess, but this is a really underrated pick. It has "needs more bulk, needs more power, needs more speed" syndrome, but its resistances as a Fake Out user make it a great pivot and Swift Swim+crazy coverage makes it into a speedy threat. Too close to call
Conkeldurr Yes It simply falls short in team contribution. As a stand-alone bruiser it is great, but you have options like Kyurem-B also in A tier.
Latios Yes It is a lot less universal and more niche of a pick this gen. Experienced players are the ones that get the most use out of it.
Breloom Yes Sash/Scarf Spore is not A on its own and Breloom really doesn't do exceptionally well in this meta. Conkeldurr outclasses it as a bruiser, it is too frail to be a successful grass pivot unlike others and Scizor does the Technician priority sniping wayyyy better. If it had more stats and moveslots to pull it off, then you could make a case for "it is the only thing that is successful at all of those things at the same time"
Shaymin-S Yes Ice and Rock are still extremely common coverage picks and when you are cripplingly weak to both, you're not gonna have a good time. Meanwhile Fire is the powerhouse offensive STAB and Talonflame, Mega Gengar, and other threats exists now.
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A Yes This is actually pretty easy to deal with. The only thing that kept it in S so long was because it was already there and its serious diverse successful sets.
Heatran down to A No Although the sub set is less dominant, Heatran already had plenty of other sets to play with to fit in most teams
Gengar up to A Yes This is threat
Pinsir up to A Abstain... Leaning to No
Bisharp up to A Yes Lol ABOUT TIME
I have actually never touched Pinsir... Maybe I should give it a try, but from the outside looking at it, it just seems like "Laga used it on that one team and it did good so yea." I do see that it misses some crucial Return and Close Combat KOs with Jolly and you might as well throw your 105 speed in the garbage with Adamant.
Excadrill Yes You need dedicated teams to make it succeed. That is a B rank quality. Its success on those teams keeps it afloat in A- imo
Hitmontop Yes :'( poor guy
Scrafty No Really great mon. I posted the bulk calcs compared to Hitmontop earlier and I still believe the bulk discrepancy makes a huge difference.
Genesect Yes It is slightly drifting into "I feel like using it bc I can" territory just because of how many other viable options there are for wide coverage attackers
Ludicolo abstain Eh... it lacks BST a bit I guess, but this is a really underrated pick. It has "needs more bulk, needs more power, needs more speed" syndrome, but its resistances as a Fake Out user make it a great pivot and Swift Swim+crazy coverage makes it into a speedy threat. Too close to call
Conkeldurr Yes It simply falls short in team contribution. As a stand-alone bruiser it is great, but you have options like Kyurem-B also in A tier.
Latios Yes It is a lot less universal and more niche of a pick this gen. Experienced players are the ones that get the most use out of it.
Breloom Yes Sash/Scarf Spore is not A on its own and Breloom really doesn't do exceptionally well in this meta. Conkeldurr outclasses it as a bruiser, it is too frail to be a successful grass pivot unlike others and Scizor does the Technician priority sniping wayyyy better. If it had more stats and moveslots to pull it off, then you could make a case for "it is the only thing that is successful at all of those things at the same time"
Shaymin-S Yes Ice and Rock are still extremely common coverage picks and when you are cripplingly weak to both, you're not gonna have a good time. Meanwhile Fire is the powerhouse offensive STAB and Talonflame, Mega Gengar, and other threats exists now.
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A Yes This is actually pretty easy to deal with. The only thing that kept it in S so long was because it was already there and its serious diverse successful sets.
Heatran down to A No Although the sub set is less dominant, Heatran already had plenty of other sets to play with to fit in most teams
Gengar up to A Yes This is threat
Pinsir up to A Abstain... Leaning to No
Bisharp up to A Yes Lol ABOUT TIME
I have actually never touched Pinsir... Maybe I should give it a try, but from the outside looking at it, it just seems like "Laga used it on that one team and it did good so yea." I do see that it misses some crucial Return and Close Combat KOs with Jolly and you might as well throw your 105 speed in the garbage with Adamant.
Last edited:
A- Nominations:
Excadrill No
Hitmontop Yes
Scrafty No
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo No
Conkeldurr No
Latios No
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations:
Tyranitar down to A Yes
Heatran down to A Yes
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A Yes
Bisharp up to A Yes
Excadrill No
Hitmontop Yes
Scrafty No
Genesect Yes
Ludicolo No
Conkeldurr No
Latios No
Breloom Yes
Shaymin-S No
Rank Shift Nominations:
Tyranitar down to A Yes
Heatran down to A Yes
Gengar up to A Yes
Pinsir up to A Yes
Bisharp up to A Yes
A- Nominations:
Excadrill: Yes
Hitmontop: Yes
Scrafty: No
Genesect: Yes
Ludicolo: Abstain
Conkeldurr: Yes
Latios: Yes
Breloom: Yes
Shaymin-S: No
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A: Nah, it's still top dog. Summons sand to neutralize sun/rain. A good check to Thundurus, Togekiss, Gengar, Cresselia, Manectric, and most Fire-types. Rock Slide spam 2 gud. It's also very versatile; trying to determine its set is difficult in the beginning of the game.
Heatran down to A: No
Gengar up to A: Yes, and long overdue, too ;d Reducing the opponent's moves by disabling switching is super clutch
Pinsir up to A: No; Personally cant see myself using Pinsir over any other megas in A rank.
Bisharp up to A: Yes; nothing does what Bisharp does.
Excadrill: Yes
Hitmontop: Yes
Scrafty: No
Genesect: Yes
Ludicolo: Abstain
Conkeldurr: Yes
Latios: Yes
Breloom: Yes
Shaymin-S: No
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A: Nah, it's still top dog. Summons sand to neutralize sun/rain. A good check to Thundurus, Togekiss, Gengar, Cresselia, Manectric, and most Fire-types. Rock Slide spam 2 gud. It's also very versatile; trying to determine its set is difficult in the beginning of the game.
Heatran down to A: No
Gengar up to A: Yes, and long overdue, too ;d Reducing the opponent's moves by disabling switching is super clutch
Pinsir up to A: No; Personally cant see myself using Pinsir over any other megas in A rank.
Bisharp up to A: Yes; nothing does what Bisharp does.
A- Nominations:
Excadrill: Yes (F-R-A-I-L spells "frail"; it is hard to justify its use over Lando-T as well simply because Intimidate is generally more effective than Mold Breaker, plus Excadrill has a lot of common weakness Lando doesn't have such as Fighting, Fire and Ground)
Hitmontop: Yes (I don't think Hitmontop is good this generation to get my prejudice out of the way)
Scrafty: Yes (It just doesn't hit hard enough honestly and Fairies remain a big problem for it)
Genesect: Yes (while I personally do not like Genesect this seems like the right place for it)
Ludicolo: No (Kills a ton of top threats and has Fake Out and high speed in rain, plus can just be a bulky AV user outside of rain)
Conkeldurr: No (why don't you name me a better Mach Punch user than Conk. You can't? Exactly)
Latios: No (I have been using Latios a lot more lately, it is incredibly underrated; TR may not be its best friend but it still does tons with Draco Meteor and using Sucker Punch can just ruin you if they pack Tailwind or things down that alley)
Breloom: Yes (With all the priority flying (and Flying priority :>) around the fact its super frail is a huge liability even if it has a great offensive typing and Spore)
Shaymin-S: Yes (from my experience Skymin is also a bit too frail, and it quite often misses out on OHKOs it might need. Also speed control is the bane of its existence. Mildly borderline since it is incredibly hard to switch into, though)
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A: Yup (TTar's niche last gen was its weather changing ability, since rain was so potent. Now you can just stall out weather w/ Protect and sun holds rain down more so TTar's main appeal is DDance really and possibly a Talonburd and CharYZard check. Definitely not S anymore imo)
Heatran down to A: NTY good sir (Am borderline but when something walls Sun, Talonturd, Hyper Voice, BlizzSpam, and etc you know it has a lot of application and that ability to hold a lot of common threats down, especially sun, is really effective)
Gengar up to A: Yeh (Can we also talk about Accelgor cuz we should really talk about Accelgor)
Pinsir up to A: Nop (I'm just gonna say it, Pinsir isn't that good; it is incredibly niche and only fits on a small percentage of teams)
Bisharp up to A: Wait are you serious? Yes ofc (Look at the SPL usage that's really all I have to say; while usage isn't necessarily a direct demonstration of how good something is, you see it doing a lot of work in the replays and it almost always does something useful so there we have it)
Excadrill: Yes (F-R-A-I-L spells "frail"; it is hard to justify its use over Lando-T as well simply because Intimidate is generally more effective than Mold Breaker, plus Excadrill has a lot of common weakness Lando doesn't have such as Fighting, Fire and Ground)
Hitmontop: Yes (I don't think Hitmontop is good this generation to get my prejudice out of the way)
Scrafty: Yes (It just doesn't hit hard enough honestly and Fairies remain a big problem for it)
Genesect: Yes (while I personally do not like Genesect this seems like the right place for it)
Ludicolo: No (Kills a ton of top threats and has Fake Out and high speed in rain, plus can just be a bulky AV user outside of rain)
Conkeldurr: No (why don't you name me a better Mach Punch user than Conk. You can't? Exactly)
Latios: No (I have been using Latios a lot more lately, it is incredibly underrated; TR may not be its best friend but it still does tons with Draco Meteor and using Sucker Punch can just ruin you if they pack Tailwind or things down that alley)
Breloom: Yes (With all the priority flying (and Flying priority :>) around the fact its super frail is a huge liability even if it has a great offensive typing and Spore)
Shaymin-S: Yes (from my experience Skymin is also a bit too frail, and it quite often misses out on OHKOs it might need. Also speed control is the bane of its existence. Mildly borderline since it is incredibly hard to switch into, though)
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A: Yup (TTar's niche last gen was its weather changing ability, since rain was so potent. Now you can just stall out weather w/ Protect and sun holds rain down more so TTar's main appeal is DDance really and possibly a Talonburd and CharYZard check. Definitely not S anymore imo)
Heatran down to A: NTY good sir (Am borderline but when something walls Sun, Talonturd, Hyper Voice, BlizzSpam, and etc you know it has a lot of application and that ability to hold a lot of common threats down, especially sun, is really effective)
Gengar up to A: Yeh (Can we also talk about Accelgor cuz we should really talk about Accelgor)
Pinsir up to A: Nop (I'm just gonna say it, Pinsir isn't that good; it is incredibly niche and only fits on a small percentage of teams)
Bisharp up to A: Wait are you serious? Yes ofc (Look at the SPL usage that's really all I have to say; while usage isn't necessarily a direct demonstration of how good something is, you see it doing a lot of work in the replays and it almost always does something useful so there we have it)
Excadrill: Yes
Hitmontop: No. I will add that if you're slapping him on a team just for Intimidate and Fake Out support, you're using him wrong. You need to make use of his other support moves too, or you need to be Fangame who knows how to use LO Hitmontop well for both support and for offence. I will add that I'm borderline on this.
Scrafty: No
Genesect: Yes
Ludicolo: Yes
Conkeldurr: Yes
Latios: No
Breloom: No. This is one of those Pokemon that will put in work if both opponents cannot outspeed it - it's just a matter of sending it out at the right time. And unlike Amoonguss, it can abuse that sleep itself. (With all the priority flying (and Flying priority :>) around the fact its super frail is a huge liability even if it has a great offensive typing and Spore). Before you say that's too hard, look at Bisharp, who manages even without a Sash.
Shaymin-S: No. Easy no. This was a candidate for A+ before! It's speed and power are wonderful with a LO and it has great coverage with Seed Flare / Earth Power and Air Slash, netting many KOs easily. And Air Slash 57% flinch hax is handy for stalling turns when needed - stalling out Char Y and stopping TR from getting up particularly. Those are risky uses, but i found the gain from just one flinch hax outweighs the loss of the hax no working for just one turn.
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A: Yes. Too many weaknesses, and sandstrom support isn't what it used to be.
Heatran down to A: No. Checks exist, but Sub + Protect is still great at stalling them out, and once those checks are gone, gg. Shuca Heatran can also lure in many of said checks for a quick KO e.g. Landoge with HP Ice.
Pinsir up to A: No. This Pokemon actually has a lot of competition with Mega Kang. Both hit very hard with good speed, but
-much worse bulk thanks to its special defense bulk and many exploitable weaknesses. This is the greatest issue. Both hit hard and get 2HKOs on much of the metagame, but the key difference is that Mega Kang can hit hard and take a hit in return, whilst Mega Pinsir deals a hit and then gets KOed. If Mega Pinsir could OHKO more things, this would be a different story, It needs support to really shine; it's not indepedent like Kang
-Pinsir has to be Jolly with max speed or close to max speed due to its many weaknesses, Kang is much more flexible with EV spreads
-whilst Pinsir does offer Feint support, Kang offers Fake Out support which is better and still has priority (Sucker Punch)
-not much of note between Kang's and Pinsir's speed. The notable threats between them aren't actually that common (Garchomp is neglected for Landoge, Landorus-I is not common, and Thundurus-T fairs well against Mega Pinsir)
Bisharp up to A: Yes. This has been overdue
Gengar up to A: Yes. The Mega set has recently shown its potential through Shadow Tag
Please note that I may change my opinion on Scrafty, Top, Gengar, and Pinsir if Kang gets banned
Hitmontop: No. I will add that if you're slapping him on a team just for Intimidate and Fake Out support, you're using him wrong. You need to make use of his other support moves too, or you need to be Fangame who knows how to use LO Hitmontop well for both support and for offence. I will add that I'm borderline on this.
Scrafty: No
Genesect: Yes
Ludicolo: Yes
Conkeldurr: Yes
Latios: No
Breloom: No. This is one of those Pokemon that will put in work if both opponents cannot outspeed it - it's just a matter of sending it out at the right time. And unlike Amoonguss, it can abuse that sleep itself. (With all the priority flying (and Flying priority :>) around the fact its super frail is a huge liability even if it has a great offensive typing and Spore). Before you say that's too hard, look at Bisharp, who manages even without a Sash.
Shaymin-S: No. Easy no. This was a candidate for A+ before! It's speed and power are wonderful with a LO and it has great coverage with Seed Flare / Earth Power and Air Slash, netting many KOs easily. And Air Slash 57% flinch hax is handy for stalling turns when needed - stalling out Char Y and stopping TR from getting up particularly. Those are risky uses, but i found the gain from just one flinch hax outweighs the loss of the hax no working for just one turn.
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A: Yes. Too many weaknesses, and sandstrom support isn't what it used to be.
Heatran down to A: No. Checks exist, but Sub + Protect is still great at stalling them out, and once those checks are gone, gg. Shuca Heatran can also lure in many of said checks for a quick KO e.g. Landoge with HP Ice.
Pinsir up to A: No. This Pokemon actually has a lot of competition with Mega Kang. Both hit very hard with good speed, but
-much worse bulk thanks to its special defense bulk and many exploitable weaknesses. This is the greatest issue. Both hit hard and get 2HKOs on much of the metagame, but the key difference is that Mega Kang can hit hard and take a hit in return, whilst Mega Pinsir deals a hit and then gets KOed. If Mega Pinsir could OHKO more things, this would be a different story, It needs support to really shine; it's not indepedent like Kang
-Pinsir has to be Jolly with max speed or close to max speed due to its many weaknesses, Kang is much more flexible with EV spreads
-whilst Pinsir does offer Feint support, Kang offers Fake Out support which is better and still has priority (Sucker Punch)
-not much of note between Kang's and Pinsir's speed. The notable threats between them aren't actually that common (Garchomp is neglected for Landoge, Landorus-I is not common, and Thundurus-T fairs well against Mega Pinsir)
Bisharp up to A: Yes. This has been overdue
Gengar up to A: Yes. The Mega set has recently shown its potential through Shadow Tag
Please note that I may change my opinion on Scrafty, Top, Gengar, and Pinsir if Kang gets banned
Stratos
Banned deucer.
A little late to influence voting too much here but:
A- Nominations:
Excadrill Yes
Compared to Landorus-T and Garchomp, its main competition, it's slower, harder to switch in, and has no Stone Edge to actually significantly damage flying types. However, it does have one perk that keeps it in A, namely Mold Breaker, but i don't believe that it's good enough to keep it out of A-. sand rush is also cool but since it requires having a ttar on the team (which exca can't eq next to, so the sand timer is ridiculously hard to refresh for it) thats kind of a buzz kill and not even A-worthy
Hitmontop Yes
See my earlier post on the subject
Scrafty Yes
see my earlier post on the subject
Genesect yes
it's too frail to switch in and relies on coverage to damage things. It's good at offensive pressure though and can spam u-turn like no other (except maybe lando)
Ludicolo yes
though it's a good generic attacker in rain, it's really held back by its abysmal physical defense. It's unable to switch in on any sizable neutral physical attack, severely limiting its utility, and suffers from 4mss
Conkeldurr
Latios ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Latios is one of two viable dragons in XY (the other being hydreigon) to resist both fire and water which is HUGE. Its typing allows it to serve as a generic catch-all for common special attackers (such as rotom-w and zard), its speed tier is excellent, and it covers almost all fighting types as well. Latios is a fifth or sixth mon I often find myself using because of its ability to check so many top threats in the Doubles metagame. Granted it has its downfalls—losing to steels being the main one—but in a meta with so many answers for steel-types that's entirely forgivable in favor of its pros.
Breloom Yes
As Darkmalice said, if it outspeeds both opponents, it WILL be the biggest fucking pain in the ass. breloom rofls all over the pwnemon special so i can appreciate its strengths. That being said, it is really frail and ive never been able to use it properly myself.
Shaymin-S no.
It's not even the sheer offensive presence so much as its effect chances. Seed flare is fucking AMAZING as an assist move when paired with another special attacker, giving a 68% chance to double your next attack's power, not to mention grass is a p. good attacking type atm. Air Slash is obviously hitler personified. It's the fastest non-mega pokemon in the metagame, so it definitely deserves a spot in A.
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A yes
Heatran down to A abstain
it has a ridiculously good set of resistances that let it keep coming in; however, the exploitable 4x ground weak is an absolute bitch to deal with, which makes it hard to keep in for long when every team has 2-3 ground move users. also, heat wave really doesn't seem to hit too hard imo, 3hkoing neutrals, which just isn't as much as i'd like to be doing. but it's a good utility answer to a lot of attacking types and mons. UGH CANT DECIDE.
Gengar up to A yes
Pinsir up to A ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Pinsir was on one good team, hooray. That doesn't make it A-rank; the poke is an absolute pain in the ass to build around and can't just be fit on any team. For one, its ridiculously poor typing makes it all but impossible to bring in (fighting and ground types, its two usable resists, usually carry rock moves) and for two, it is for all intents and purposes a mono-type attacker (close combat comes just short of koing basically everything it targets, and eq is shit lol, and it doesnt get megahorn). All this might be forgivable and worthy of A- were it not for one crucial detail: it uses up your mega slot. Have I ever found Pinsir worth using over another mega? No. I may sometime in the future, but if it were A-worthy, that probably would have happened by now.
Bisharp up to A yes
as for the other three: i originally nominated them so go read it niggas
edit: would it kill you people to provide some actual discussion in this thread, it feels like very few people contribute nowadays :(
A- Nominations:
Excadrill Yes
Compared to Landorus-T and Garchomp, its main competition, it's slower, harder to switch in, and has no Stone Edge to actually significantly damage flying types. However, it does have one perk that keeps it in A, namely Mold Breaker, but i don't believe that it's good enough to keep it out of A-. sand rush is also cool but since it requires having a ttar on the team (which exca can't eq next to, so the sand timer is ridiculously hard to refresh for it) thats kind of a buzz kill and not even A-worthy
Hitmontop Yes
See my earlier post on the subject
Scrafty Yes
see my earlier post on the subject
Genesect yes
it's too frail to switch in and relies on coverage to damage things. It's good at offensive pressure though and can spam u-turn like no other (except maybe lando)
Ludicolo yes
though it's a good generic attacker in rain, it's really held back by its abysmal physical defense. It's unable to switch in on any sizable neutral physical attack, severely limiting its utility, and suffers from 4mss
Conkeldurr
Latios ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Latios is one of two viable dragons in XY (the other being hydreigon) to resist both fire and water which is HUGE. Its typing allows it to serve as a generic catch-all for common special attackers (such as rotom-w and zard), its speed tier is excellent, and it covers almost all fighting types as well. Latios is a fifth or sixth mon I often find myself using because of its ability to check so many top threats in the Doubles metagame. Granted it has its downfalls—losing to steels being the main one—but in a meta with so many answers for steel-types that's entirely forgivable in favor of its pros.
Breloom Yes
As Darkmalice said, if it outspeeds both opponents, it WILL be the biggest fucking pain in the ass. breloom rofls all over the pwnemon special so i can appreciate its strengths. That being said, it is really frail and ive never been able to use it properly myself.
Shaymin-S no.
It's not even the sheer offensive presence so much as its effect chances. Seed flare is fucking AMAZING as an assist move when paired with another special attacker, giving a 68% chance to double your next attack's power, not to mention grass is a p. good attacking type atm. Air Slash is obviously hitler personified. It's the fastest non-mega pokemon in the metagame, so it definitely deserves a spot in A.
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A yes
Heatran down to A abstain
it has a ridiculously good set of resistances that let it keep coming in; however, the exploitable 4x ground weak is an absolute bitch to deal with, which makes it hard to keep in for long when every team has 2-3 ground move users. also, heat wave really doesn't seem to hit too hard imo, 3hkoing neutrals, which just isn't as much as i'd like to be doing. but it's a good utility answer to a lot of attacking types and mons. UGH CANT DECIDE.
Gengar up to A yes
Pinsir up to A ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Pinsir was on one good team, hooray. That doesn't make it A-rank; the poke is an absolute pain in the ass to build around and can't just be fit on any team. For one, its ridiculously poor typing makes it all but impossible to bring in (fighting and ground types, its two usable resists, usually carry rock moves) and for two, it is for all intents and purposes a mono-type attacker (close combat comes just short of koing basically everything it targets, and eq is shit lol, and it doesnt get megahorn). All this might be forgivable and worthy of A- were it not for one crucial detail: it uses up your mega slot. Have I ever found Pinsir worth using over another mega? No. I may sometime in the future, but if it were A-worthy, that probably would have happened by now.
Bisharp up to A yes
as for the other three: i originally nominated them so go read it niggas
edit: would it kill you people to provide some actual discussion in this thread, it feels like very few people contribute nowadays :(
A- Nominations:
Excadrill - Yes. Sand Rush is much less reliable nowadays, and its Mold Breaker set faces stiff competition from Kyu-B, whom people are turning to because of its bulky, greater natural speed, and overall usefulness as a pivot.
Hitmontop - Yes. I'll reiterate for the sake of explanation- this thing has almost 0 stay-in ability; all it can really do after switch in + Fake Out is use a (weak) CC or spam Wide Guard for aid.
Scrafty - Yes. Similar problems with Hitmontop, but in its case its Speed and weakness to Fighting also bring it down. Knock Off is useful but predictable, making Scrafty a bit too one dimensional.
Genesect - Yes. Not bulky enough, not fast enough, not powerful enough. Having great coverage doesn't help as much when you have to face two opponents.
Ludicolo - Abstain (lean Yes.). Lacking really the right mix of bulk and power are what fail it. I was a bit more on the fence with this one because it is the best Rain-reliant sweeper and does serve a huge purpose of checking Rotom-W and other bulky grass-types.
Conkeldurr - Yes. Relies a lot on Trick Room, and must always make the decision between power and bulk. Its LO Punch set is surprisingly powerful, but weak to status
Latios - Abstain (lean Yes.). It's weak to Sucker Punch, which makes it lose against most Mega K cores. However, besides that, it's fast and powerful, which is cool. Tailwind is also nice. Undecided for me at this point.
Breloom - No. The Sash set is really potent; see Mizu's RMT. All it really needs is speed control and it can do a lot of damage.
Shaymin-S - Yes. Too frail, unreliable / weak. Speed control rapes it. It's powerful alright, but priority is usually enough to silence it before it gets too many KOs
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A - Yes. Sand is a lot worse now, and TTar is just Mega K setup bait. Its low speed and long list of resistances easily knocks it out of S tier.
Heatran down to A - No. It's still really good; if you manage to take down the one or two checks to this that most teams carry, it can easily deal a lot of damage. Sub set lost some viability, but its other sets are still very potent.
Gengar up to A - Yes. Mega Gengar is really powerful; Shadow Tag is an excellent tool for grabbing momentum and punishing bad plays, plus 130 Spe 170 SpA HOLY FUCK and STAB Shadow Ball because Ghost is a strong attack type
Pinsir up to A - Still yes for this one. I understand the anti-arguments but I could see this in A- tbh. Hyper Cutter keeps Intimidators away initially, great speed and ability to check Mega K make it a great offensive tool.
Bisharp up to A - Yes. This thing is really powerful and can nab some pretty clutch KOs. Strongest viable Sucker in the game makes it very optimal for applying offensive pressure plus Defiant is awesome to counter Intimidate and spread speed control.
Excadrill - Yes. Sand Rush is much less reliable nowadays, and its Mold Breaker set faces stiff competition from Kyu-B, whom people are turning to because of its bulky, greater natural speed, and overall usefulness as a pivot.
Hitmontop - Yes. I'll reiterate for the sake of explanation- this thing has almost 0 stay-in ability; all it can really do after switch in + Fake Out is use a (weak) CC or spam Wide Guard for aid.
Scrafty - Yes. Similar problems with Hitmontop, but in its case its Speed and weakness to Fighting also bring it down. Knock Off is useful but predictable, making Scrafty a bit too one dimensional.
Genesect - Yes. Not bulky enough, not fast enough, not powerful enough. Having great coverage doesn't help as much when you have to face two opponents.
Ludicolo - Abstain (lean Yes.). Lacking really the right mix of bulk and power are what fail it. I was a bit more on the fence with this one because it is the best Rain-reliant sweeper and does serve a huge purpose of checking Rotom-W and other bulky grass-types.
Conkeldurr - Yes. Relies a lot on Trick Room, and must always make the decision between power and bulk. Its LO Punch set is surprisingly powerful, but weak to status
Latios - Abstain (lean Yes.). It's weak to Sucker Punch, which makes it lose against most Mega K cores. However, besides that, it's fast and powerful, which is cool. Tailwind is also nice. Undecided for me at this point.
Breloom - No. The Sash set is really potent; see Mizu's RMT. All it really needs is speed control and it can do a lot of damage.
Shaymin-S - Yes. Too frail, unreliable / weak. Speed control rapes it. It's powerful alright, but priority is usually enough to silence it before it gets too many KOs
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A - Yes. Sand is a lot worse now, and TTar is just Mega K setup bait. Its low speed and long list of resistances easily knocks it out of S tier.
Heatran down to A - No. It's still really good; if you manage to take down the one or two checks to this that most teams carry, it can easily deal a lot of damage. Sub set lost some viability, but its other sets are still very potent.
Gengar up to A - Yes. Mega Gengar is really powerful; Shadow Tag is an excellent tool for grabbing momentum and punishing bad plays, plus 130 Spe 170 SpA HOLY FUCK and STAB Shadow Ball because Ghost is a strong attack type
Pinsir up to A - Still yes for this one. I understand the anti-arguments but I could see this in A- tbh. Hyper Cutter keeps Intimidators away initially, great speed and ability to check Mega K make it a great offensive tool.
Bisharp up to A - Yes. This thing is really powerful and can nab some pretty clutch KOs. Strongest viable Sucker in the game makes it very optimal for applying offensive pressure plus Defiant is awesome to counter Intimidate and spread speed control.
A- Nominations:
Excadrill - Yes. While Sand Offense is still pretty good in today's meta, it's much harder to run. Also, Excadrill's pretty frail and has a weakness to many spread moves. Still a great Poke on certain types of teams, but it doesn't deserve A.
Hitmontop - Yes. Wide Guard and Feint are nice, but that's not enough to make up for its piss-poor offense and inability to stay in after firing off a CC.
Scrafty - No. Scrafty has great longevity with Drain Punch, has utility with Knock Off, and is a pain to take down specially with an Assault Vest.
Genesect - Yes. Meh, it's got good coverage, but the average bulk and awkward speed tier never make it too threatening for most teams to take down.
Ludicolo - No. Fake Out support and great coverage alongside normal rain team picks are what make Ludicolo shine, and this gen's addition of the Assault Vest lets it sponge special hits.
Conkeldurr - No. Has amazing power and checks Kangaskhan. A total menace under Trick Room and still wrecks without it.
Latios - No. I'm borderline on this one, but Tailwind lets it evades Kangaskhan's Sucker Punch and gives it great utility for the team. Has good STAB coverage and hits pretty hard.
Breloom - Yes. With the Sash set, it's staying at a very low amount of HP most of the team, and while Spore support is nice, it's too frail to do it consistently.
Shaymin-Sky - No. The incredible speed this thing has, the two most infuriating side effects doubled, and a great coverage move in Earth Power is all it needs to stay in A in my book.
Rank Shift Nominations:
Tyranitar down to A. - Yes. The sand support it gives is not as useful and it's weaknesses have become more common.
Heatran down to A - No. With proper support, it still terrorizes teams with either an offensive set or the Sub set. Wide Guard support isn't much to ask for and it's still great without it.
Gengar up to A - Yes lol do i even need to explain
Pinsir up to A - Competes with MKang and loses on most accounts tbh. Too niche to be A Rank.
Bisharp up to A - Yes. defiant is so clutch
Excadrill - Yes. While Sand Offense is still pretty good in today's meta, it's much harder to run. Also, Excadrill's pretty frail and has a weakness to many spread moves. Still a great Poke on certain types of teams, but it doesn't deserve A.
Hitmontop - Yes. Wide Guard and Feint are nice, but that's not enough to make up for its piss-poor offense and inability to stay in after firing off a CC.
Scrafty - No. Scrafty has great longevity with Drain Punch, has utility with Knock Off, and is a pain to take down specially with an Assault Vest.
Genesect - Yes. Meh, it's got good coverage, but the average bulk and awkward speed tier never make it too threatening for most teams to take down.
Ludicolo - No. Fake Out support and great coverage alongside normal rain team picks are what make Ludicolo shine, and this gen's addition of the Assault Vest lets it sponge special hits.
Conkeldurr - No. Has amazing power and checks Kangaskhan. A total menace under Trick Room and still wrecks without it.
Latios - No. I'm borderline on this one, but Tailwind lets it evades Kangaskhan's Sucker Punch and gives it great utility for the team. Has good STAB coverage and hits pretty hard.
Breloom - Yes. With the Sash set, it's staying at a very low amount of HP most of the team, and while Spore support is nice, it's too frail to do it consistently.
Shaymin-Sky - No. The incredible speed this thing has, the two most infuriating side effects doubled, and a great coverage move in Earth Power is all it needs to stay in A in my book.
Rank Shift Nominations:
Tyranitar down to A. - Yes. The sand support it gives is not as useful and it's weaknesses have become more common.
Heatran down to A - No. With proper support, it still terrorizes teams with either an offensive set or the Sub set. Wide Guard support isn't much to ask for and it's still great without it.
Gengar up to A - Yes lol do i even need to explain
Pinsir up to A - Competes with MKang and loses on most accounts tbh. Too niche to be A Rank.
Bisharp up to A - Yes. defiant is so clutch
A- Nominations:
Excadrill - yes
Hitmontop - no
Scrafty - yes
Genesect - no
Ludicolo - yes
Conkeldurr - yes
Latios - yes
Breloom - yes
Shaymin-S - no
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A -y es
Heatran down to A - yes
Gengar up to A - yes
Pinsir up to A - yes
Bisharp up to A - yes
edit just to reclarify, for the A- nominations Pwnemon it'd be dropping those mons from their current A rank to A- correct? Because if so I feel a lot of people voted incorrectly lol
Excadrill - yes
Hitmontop - no
Scrafty - yes
Genesect - no
Ludicolo - yes
Conkeldurr - yes
Latios - yes
Breloom - yes
Shaymin-S - no
Rank Shift Nominations
Tyranitar down to A -y es
Heatran down to A - yes
Gengar up to A - yes
Pinsir up to A - yes
Bisharp up to A - yes
edit just to reclarify, for the A- nominations Pwnemon it'd be dropping those mons from their current A rank to A- correct? Because if so I feel a lot of people voted incorrectly lol
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Stratos
Banned deucer.
ok lets close this voting round
Excadrill 17 yes 2 no
Hitmontop 10 yes thats enough
Scrafty 9 yes 9 no 1 abstain FCKING HELL REALLY??
18:02 Pwnemon: scrafty A or A-
18:03 Ultimathunder: A-
18:03 Ultimathunder: pls
18:03 Pwnemon: did u vote in the thread
18:03 Ultimathunder: nop
10 yes 9 no
Genesect 10 yes thats enough
Ludicolo 8 yes 7 no
Conkeldurr 10 yes thats enough
Latios 9 yes 9 no 1 abstain JESUS COCKWAFFLES
18:08 Pwnemon: latios A or A-
18:09 TOTEM: A-
18:09 Pwnemon: did u vote in the thread
18:09 Ultimathunder: A
18:09 Pwnemon: totem did u vote in the thread
18:10 Pwnemon: ugh wow fuck now its tied
18:10 Pwnemon: mizuhime latios a or a-
18:10 Mizuhime: a imo
10 yes 11 no
Breloom 10 yes thats enough
Shaymin-S 3 yes lol
Tyranitar 10 yes thats enough
Heatran 7 yes 11 no
Gengar 10 yes thats enough
Pinsir 7 yes 11 no (good i would have banned you all)
bisharp (do i have to count) went ten for ten
Ranks have been updated!
Nominate for B+, or make major rank shift nominations. do not nominate subtier shifts except B+ unless the pokemon you are nominating is gengar, ttar, or bisharp.
Excadrill 17 yes 2 no
Hitmontop 10 yes thats enough
Scrafty 9 yes 9 no 1 abstain FCKING HELL REALLY??
18:02 Pwnemon: scrafty A or A-
18:03 Ultimathunder: A-
18:03 Ultimathunder: pls
18:03 Pwnemon: did u vote in the thread
18:03 Ultimathunder: nop
10 yes 9 no
Genesect 10 yes thats enough
Ludicolo 8 yes 7 no
Conkeldurr 10 yes thats enough
Latios 9 yes 9 no 1 abstain JESUS COCKWAFFLES
18:08 Pwnemon: latios A or A-
18:09 TOTEM: A-
18:09 Pwnemon: did u vote in the thread
18:09 Ultimathunder: A
18:09 Pwnemon: totem did u vote in the thread
18:10 Pwnemon: ugh wow fuck now its tied
18:10 Pwnemon: mizuhime latios a or a-
18:10 Mizuhime: a imo
10 yes 11 no
Breloom 10 yes thats enough
Shaymin-S 3 yes lol
Tyranitar 10 yes thats enough
Heatran 7 yes 11 no
Gengar 10 yes thats enough
Pinsir 7 yes 11 no (good i would have banned you all)
bisharp (do i have to count) went ten for ten
Ranks have been updated!
Nominate for B+, or make major rank shift nominations. do not nominate subtier shifts except B+ unless the pokemon you are nominating is gengar, ttar, or bisharp.
Prime candidates imo
Gardevoir- MASSIVE power as mega and fairy is a great offensive spread move. Scarf set fell out of usage, but it still exists
Keldeo- It has all the same tools as Terrakion which is a dominant threat. The only problem with Keldeo unlike Terrakion is that it NEEDS a partner to complement its coverage since there are a lot of things that Water+Fighting just can't hit at all.
Suicune- It is amazing on Tailwind and has a very niche CM set. It doesn't make it to B+ on variety, but it is the glue to almost every successful Tailwind team. It can run Icy Wind instead as well iirc
Azumarill- Enough bulk and power to successfully pivot and change momentum with 3 attack set as well as the resistances+neutral coverage. Belly Drum requires dedicated support and is kinda obvious when you have Togekiss+Azumarill on the field together, BUT similar to Kanga it still wrecks face if played right.
B rank is littered with really great picks that just aren't overwhelming metagame presences. As such, I tried to pick ones that stood out as more recognizable reliable picks. Can't make them all B+
Gardevoir- MASSIVE power as mega and fairy is a great offensive spread move. Scarf set fell out of usage, but it still exists
Keldeo- It has all the same tools as Terrakion which is a dominant threat. The only problem with Keldeo unlike Terrakion is that it NEEDS a partner to complement its coverage since there are a lot of things that Water+Fighting just can't hit at all.
Suicune- It is amazing on Tailwind and has a very niche CM set. It doesn't make it to B+ on variety, but it is the glue to almost every successful Tailwind team. It can run Icy Wind instead as well iirc
Azumarill- Enough bulk and power to successfully pivot and change momentum with 3 attack set as well as the resistances+neutral coverage. Belly Drum requires dedicated support and is kinda obvious when you have Togekiss+Azumarill on the field together, BUT similar to Kanga it still wrecks face if played right.
B rank is littered with really great picks that just aren't overwhelming metagame presences. As such, I tried to pick ones that stood out as more recognizable reliable picks. Can't make them all B+
A+ Nominations:
- Azumarill - Great power with Huge Power, Belly Drum turns it into an unstoppable force, good offensive and defensive typing, powerful priority move.
- Ferrothorn - Great mixed bulk, Iron Barbs, awesome Rain counter, good support movepool, Power Whip and especially Gyro Ball actually hit surprisingly hard.
- Gardevoir - Such a powerful spread move, good SpA, p good movepool, but really Hyper Voice is what makes it so good.
- Keldeo - Very powerful, good movepool, fast, able to put a lot of pressure on the opponent
- Suicuen - A lot of bulk, good support movepool, Tailwind / Snarl + better defensive typing separate it from Cress
- Sylveon - Same as Gardevoir, an powerful Hyper Voice, though it also has actual good bulk and doesn't take up a Mega slot.
- Kingdra - Super fast under Rain, powerful, decent bulk, nice defensive typing and dual STABs
- Chandelure: Inflitrator's great, very powerful, cool Trick Room user, though it's p slow if not being used in Trick Room, and EQ/Rock Slide weaknesses suck
- Jirachi: Great user of Follow Me, Serene Grace flinch = Evil, cool support movepool, but suffers from common weaknesses and the fact that it's outclassed by Togekiss a lot of the time.
- Rotom-H: Cool resistances, bulky af, but usually outclassed by Rotom-W as a bulky Electric-type and Heatran as a bulky Fire-type.
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