Doubles Viability Rankings (C- Votes if u care lol)

[Darkmalice]

Kindgdra - B rank. I've already discussed this

Togekiss - A rank. There are some good arguments for S-rank, but in practice, I have not felt it to be a S-rank level. Electric-type and Rock-type attacks are common, its support is mainly limited to Follow Me and Tailwind or Thunder Wave, sometimes with Encore - it's great support but not Cress level support. Granted you have Air Slash flinch spam which is great, but it necessitates the use of speed control beforehand due to 80 base speed - you could speed creep Cress, but you're not doing much damage to it. Lolk mentioned it's ability to go on the offensive, but it's held back by low base power STAB moves and bad speed for an offensive Pokemon. It also doesn't like spread moves, and they're very common.

Infernape. Good support (Fake Out, Encore, Feint) and hits decently hard but frail. C-rank.

Arcanine. C-rank. Intimidate is nice, but being outsped and hit by many of the key physical attackers outsped super-effectively sucks.

Houndoom. I tried used it by using this team, but replacing Kang with Houndoom and by giving Cress Sunny Day instead of Helping Hand. I kept on finding myself not using Houndoom, as I was better off not using it as the rest of the team handled things fine on the ladder, though most of the battles were easy. It didn't help that Cress was slower than Houndoom. I then tried replacing Cress with Meowstic (Fake Out / Thunder Wave / Sunny Day / Helping Hand) - it made leading with Houndoom viable.

What I found is that, in the right scenarios and with the right support, Houndoom is a monster, doing absurd levels of damage. It even OHKOs Kang with Fire Blast in the sun (I was using Heat Wave, Fire Blast, Solarbeam and Protect; Dark Pulse is viable over Solarbeam for a better chance against Heatran), and with Helping Hand, Heat Wave can quite easily net a double 2HKO. On the downside, it is one of those Pokemon that is pretty bad in the wrong scnenario. Frailty combined with common weaknesses means it's KOed easily - pretty much all the common Choice Scarf users can OHKO it. It's useless under Trick Room, if the opponent has Tailwind up, or if paralysed. It's speed is also not ideal for a sweeper on the turn it Mega Evos - 100 base speed is the benchmark thanks to many Pokemon residing at that level. It's also easily punished if its attack misses. It needs support to be worth using over other Megas - Sunny Day is mandatory, but you also need support to control speed or a Rage Powder / Follow Me user. Compare it to Zard Y, who with the same moveset, can hit very hard and doesn't need any support at all (though it's obviously better with it). Mega Doom is definitely viable without any support, but it is then a waste of Mega evo potential - you do have the opportunity to use your opponent's ZardY's sun but that's unreliable to rely upon - use Zard Y instead. The metagame is also fairly geared for handling Fire-types, with Pokemon like Heatran, Tyranitar, and Garchomp running rampard; standard teams should be able to check Doom without trying, and it's easier to check than Zard Y and Heatran as it requires more support, and Houndoom has a hard time switching in safely. You could compare it to Deo-A - it needs more support than Deo-A, but it hits even harder and has a spread move. Obviously not nearly as frail, but Deo-A can at least hold Sash let alone not using up your Mega Stone slot.

C-rank. It falls somewhat between the definitions of B-rank and C-rank, but I feel that C-rank's is a better fit, specifically with this line. "However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance, or require too much specific team support to synergize with most teams." And just to make it clear, it is by no means close to being a gimmick.


Sylveon. High-powered, easily spammable spread attack with good power coupled with good bulk and great typing. TR support isn't hard to provide. B-rank.

 

[Nollan]

~Kingdra~

A pokemon that as mentioned by (more or less) everyone relies on rain support to be useful. And even then it has very little coverage outside of its STABs, meaning things like Azumarill, Ferrothorn, and Empoleon easily wall it. Fortunately, most of these aren't very common. But things keep going downhill anyway as it is completely outclassed by Ludicolo, who has Grass-type STAB that allows it to rip through common bulky Water-types that are used to counter rain teams as well as access to the coveted Fake Out (I think Ludicolo should rise imo, but more on this later). B Rank is right where it belongs.

~Togekiss~

S Rank is a fairly hard ranking to achieve. Looking at the definition:

Reserved for the top threats in the Doubles metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.

It can easily create free turns, I'll give it that. It does hand over some openings, however, as things like Heatran can take advantage of its presence to get a Substitute up (40% chance assuming it gets Air Slashed). And most importantly imo, it doesn't really perform "multiple roles to tremendous effect". You are using it for Tailwind/TWave + Follow Me support every time. There are some exceptions to the former, as Trick Room support Togekiss is a thing, but the later will more or less always be run. This adds an element of predictability to Togekiss. Furthermore, Ice-, Rock-, Electric-, Steel-, and Poison total up to 5 weaknesses Togekiss has (4 of which are very common). While it can be patched up with support, it's most certainly not going to be fixed with "little to no team support".

With all of this in mind, it should be pretty obvious that Togekiss ought to remain in A Rank.

~Infernape~

Infernape is a niche Pokemon that works very well when that (very specific) niche is needed. Imo, that is the spitting image of what a C Rank Pokemon should be. Everyone has covered moves and stats and etc so I'm just going to keep it short for this guy.

~Arcanine~

Intimidate is nice, Snarl is nice, its stats are all around pretty good, and it has a solid movepool. This sounds good in theory, but the fact stands that with Entei, Heatran, Charizard-Y, Charizard-X, Rotom-H, Chandelure, and so on up in the high ranks, Arcanine struggles to synergize with most teams. And that alone is the sort of thing that lands a Pokemon in C Rank. You add in some key issues presented by others (Darkmalice and Lolkomori in particular) and its placing in C Rank is cemented.

~Houndoom~

C Rank. Darkmalice tested it out and has covered issues and the likes on it very well, so I'm going to trust his judgement on this.

~Sylveon~

If you want to use Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gardevoir on the same team, you're looking at the solution right here. Be it spamming Choice Specs Hyper Voice, using Calm Mind to be a very annoying troll, or simply making use of its great defensive typing to set up Light Screen/Reflect, Slyveon can do the job. Unfortunately, it has more or less no coverage, relying on Hidden Power/Shadow Ball to hit Steel-types. B Rank seems to be about right for its ranking.

 

[Lolk]

Kingdra is added to B rank.

Sylveon is added to B rank.

Infernape is added to C rank.

Arcanine is added to C rank.

Togekiss remains in A rank.

Houndoom drops to C rank.

Adding my post to the Hall of Fame cause tyrant host.

Nominations are unlocked :)

 

[Nollan]

Alright I have a heck ton of nominations after experimenting with the metagame a fair bit.

Ludicolo rising to A Rank

An outright terrifying Swift Swim sweeper. It literally can OHKO/2HKO the majority of the metagame's top threats. And it doesn't even need rain to be useful. Fake Out support and its nice Grass / Water typing gives it a solid niche on most teams. Assault Vest Ludicolo and other bulky Ludicolo variants will work to great effect on most teams in need of an answer to Rotom-W (also does a pretty good job against Heatran). It also can use Icy Wind and Rain Dance (disrupting Sun teams and the likes). If you're feeling like a boss you can even use Hone Claws

Goodra placement in B Rank

Strong answer to Sun teams, and can use Assault Best, Haban Berry, and probably a good few other sets to great effect. 100 / 110 offenses are nice, especially in tandem with 90 / 70 / 150 defenses and a pretty large offensive movepool (about the typical movepool for a Dragon-type, but yeah). It lacks any support options to make use of unfortunately (bar Feint, and uh Sunny Day/Rain Dance I guess), which limits it to a somewhat narrow field of roles (usually a bulky attacker, anti-sun/rain/special attacker, or a Dragon-type lure). This and the fact is it fairly slow and only has average physical defense at best leads me to nominate it for B Rank.

Machamp for B Rank

Machamp is sorta like the link between Hitmontop and Conkeldurr in a way, mixing offense and support fairly nicely. With access to Quick Guard and Wide Guard, as well as a reliable DynamicPunch (comes with free confusion in this special offer) and Stone Edge. I've already nominated this but did it during locked nominations (my bad), so I think this more or less sums it up.

Gourgeist-S (possibly) for B Rank

I'm a bit borderline here, but Biosci's use of it in SPL among other things caught my attention. After some looking into things, it has come to my attention that Gourgeist-S is a really solid Kangashkan-Mega counter (probably one of the best) thanks to its 85 / 122 / 75 defenses, which gives it loads more defensive presence than Trevenant while having only slightly less specially defense presence. The ability to use Will-O-Wisp + Light Screen and Frisk (which Trevenant has, but in retrospect Harvest is actually an important niche Trevenant has over Gourgeist-S so using Frisk on Trevenant is impractical) are also useful niches. And then it also has some less common options like Leech Seed, Trick-Or-Treat, SafeSwag, and Trick, many of which Trevenant doesn't have. Seed Bomb and Phantom Force off of its base 100 Attack aren't too shabby either, though it will usually be supporting more than attacking. Overall, I'd judge we dismissed the plantern a bit too fast; it isn't really overshadowed by Trevenant (a bit maybe, but certainly not as much as we were originally claiming). As a final note, I'll show of few calcs demonstrating how much physical bulk a 252 HP Gourgeist-S has:

Calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 346-408 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (all it takes is a positive nature to always live this)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 237-279 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Scrappy Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 126-148 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 230-272 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 216-255 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and no one is ever going to use this... I hope)
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 270-320 (72.1 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Malamar placement in C Rank

While its often used poorly with gimmicks, Malamar makes a nice anti-Intimidate/Icy Wind Pokemon thanks to Contrary, which gives it a solid niche (competition from Bisharp and Tornadus mostly). I've found Choice Scarf Malamar has a lot of potential for outspeeding and eliminating things while pressuring the opponent. It is pretty one-sided imo tho, so C Rank seems about right.

 

[Darkmalice]

Weavile for C rank

It has the fastest Fake Out in the game. Good offensive pressure with strong offensive typing, high Attack, and very high Speed. OHKOes important Pokemon like Landorus-, Garchomp, and TTar and 2HKOes many Pokemon with Knock Off, Low Kick, and Ice Punch like Heatran (Focus Sash strongly recommended for Heatran). Knock Off's buff now gives Weavile a hard-hitting STAB (sadly Icicle Crash is illegal with it and Low Kick). One of the few frail offensive Pokemon that fairs well against Cress. Should you need these, Weavile also has STAB priority and Beat Up which was used in a SPL match alongside Terrakion (the key with this is to not use Beat Up as a one trick pony but in addition to what Weavile can normally do), but these are minor points.

It's main con is horrendous defensive typing and pretty much no switch-in opportunities. With Focus Sash, it should survive at least two attacks, and it's a better Focus Sash than most users as it has Low Kick for Ttar and is immune to hail. Alternative item choices over Focus Sash are Expert Belt and Life Orb for the power boost; both items score guaranteed 2HKOs and OHKOs previously missed out on like a OHKO on bulky Thundurus with Ice Punch, a OHKO on Terrakion with Low Kick and a 2HKO on Chesto Cress. However, Weavile is dependent on Focus Sash or team support if it wants to more reliably 2HKO Pokemon like Heatran else it can be OHKOed before it can 2HKO.

I'm aware that it was ranked as D rank prebank, but I feel that Weavile deserves better than that.

 

[Lolk]

There are a few Pokemon that I want to see dropped from B to C that cannot match up to the good Pokemon in the tier:

Dragonite:

There are too many other Dragons with better utility in both offensive and supporting roles. Dragonite's best niche is a bulky wall (who uses walls in doubles anyway) or bulky setup sweeper and Multiscale can easily be stopped by Fake Out or double targeting. As a dragon, using outrage is very unreliable so it must resort to Dragon Claw and its weak base power. Sure it does an okay job in battle, but there are many better Pokemon to do the job.

Blastoise:

I never want to use up a mega evolution slot for it. It has Muddy Water, Fake Out, and Mega Launcher (which are all cool), but it's also hard walled by a lot and Muddy Water misses out on a lot of KOs or it's blocked by Fake Out. Decent Pokemon, but better megas outclass it a ton.

Zygarde:

Land's Wrath isn't enough to get this guy usage over Garchomp. It has only a few niches over it, so it should be all the way in B.

Entei:

There are simply too many Fire-types that are completely better than it, such as Charizard and Heatran. It's coverage also sucks too.

With that we have enough to lock nominations.

Discuss:

Ludicolo rising to A rank (even though we already did like 2 weeks ago...)

Goodra added to B rank

Machamp in B rank

Gourgeist in B (even though we already did like 2 weeks ago...)

Malamar in C rank

Weavile in C rank

Dragonite falling to C rank

Blastoise falling to C rank

Zygarde falling to C rank

Entei falling to C rank.

 

[youngjake93]

There are a few Pokemon that I want to see dropped from B to C that cannot match up to the good Pokemon in the tier:

Dragonite:

There are too many other Dragons with better utility in both offensive and supporting roles. Dragonite's best niche is a bulky wall (who uses walls in doubles anyway) or bulky setup sweeper and Multiscale can easily be stopped by Fake Out or double targeting. As a dragon, using outrage is very unreliable so it must resort to Dragon Claw and its weak base power. Sure it does an okay job in battle, but there are many better Pokemon to do the job.

Blastoise:

I never want to use up a mega evolution slot for it. It has Muddy Water, Fake Out, and Mega Launcher (which are all cool), but it's also hard walled by a lot and Muddy Water misses out on a lot of KOs or it's blocked by Fake Out. Decent Pokemon, but better megas outclass it a ton.

Zygarde:

Land's Wrath isn't enough to get this guy usage over Garchomp. It has only a few niches over it, so it should be all the way in B.

Entei:

There are simply too many Fire-types that are completely better than it, such as Charizard and Heatran. It's coverage also sucks too.

With that we have enough to lock nominations.

Discuss:

Ludicolo rising to A rank (even though we already did like 2 weeks ago...)

Goodra added to B rank

Machamp in B rank

Gourgeist in B (even though we already did like 2 weeks ago...)

Malamar in C rank

Weavile in C rank

Dragonite falling to C rank

Blastoise falling to C rank

Zygarde falling to C rank

Entei falling to C rank.

Ludicolo's water+ice+grass coverage and defensive typing are reeeeally good in this meta. Fake Out and Swift Swim are the best bonuses you could ask for. With its unique typing it can be a mixed tank with sitrus or a special tank with vest without rain support. I think it is similar to Excadrill in that you can use it fairly well without support, but it is a ridiculous beast in its weather.

Machamp is good for B. We all know what it does. It is particularly great with paralysis support and fits certain teams. Its niche isn't THAT obscure to be down in C rank imo

Weavile can be C. Faster than Kanga Fake Out means a lot and it got nifty STAB upgrades.

Dragonite: "Multiscale can easily be stopped by Fake Out or double targeting"
This is the whole point. You need to use Fake Out or double target. Protect and/or Sky Drop score free turns galore when the opponent loses momentum targeting this hit magnet. It usually is more of a tank than a wall. 134 base attack Dragon Claw is the same power as Tyranitar Crunch... Not exactly weak. Extreme Speed is the biggest thing though. It allows Dragonite to act like Scizor, picking off fast opponents like Talonflame even as high as 40% hp sometimes.

Zygarde basically can set up on/tank and kill CharY and Heatran while not being weak to Electric, Water or Grass(unlike Fire/Water types) just like other Dragons. However, sweet bulk and Land's Wrath+Stone Edge makes it reeeeally stand out in this role. I would probably say B- but that doesn't exist, soo stay in B imo.

 

[nyttyn]

Entei is still bulky as crap, its sacred fire still hits like a mega truck, and it still has 80 BP (albeit normal) +2 priority. Its coverage is non-existent, yes, but that's what keeps it B and not A. Fire is just a really good attacking type right now. And yes, Charizard and Heatran are better. They're both also freaking S rank mons, are both Special-type, and both have quadruple weaknesses to common attacking types, among other things that Entei has over them. No, I'm not saying it's in their league, but it doesn't fulfil the same niche for one, and for two it is an awful argument to begin with.

and it's certainly way better then C tier, which features such rejects like Jolteon, Mantine, and Houndoom.

 

[Lasagne]

Ludicolo rising to A rank

ludicolo is really cool, and possibly one of the more underrated mons in smogdubs atm. its a brilliant rain sweeper, with near-perfect coverage in surf/giga drain/ice beam, able to hit almost everything for neutral (cant think of anything that resists it all tbh, but theres probably something). not only that, its solid on non rain teams too. with access to fake out, it can be very useful by incapacitating an opponents pokemon for a turn while your partner does as they please. assault vest is a set ive been testing out lately, and its pretty solid. ludicolo takes pretty much any special hit it wants to, and hits back with a relatively powerful stab move/ice beam. definitely good material for a rank.

Goodra added to B rank

for sure. dont have much to say here. assault vest goodra takes special hits all day every day and dishes them back with decent power, but doesnt take physical hits all that well (gooey is really cool speed control though)

Machamp in B rank

im not so sure about this one. i think id probably say place it in C, but i dont have much to back that up tbh :/ its just not a very good mon, and id rather use conkeldurr, hitmontop, terrakion or scrafty in almost every situation. dynamicpunch no guard is enough for c rank, but i dont think it should go any higher. imo the other fighting mons are just better most of the time. i suppose id be ok with b, but c is the right place imo

Gourgeist in B

i have no experience with this, but its a pretty cool bulky trick room setter, better than trevenant if you want a mon to sit there and take hits, while being able to set up trick room repeatedly. b rank is good

Malamar in C rank

shitty mon, contrary superpower isnt enough to make up for the shit stats and bad typing. iirc people use scarf (pls confirm), but id rather use other dark or psychic mons tbh, or even fighting mons if you're just gonna spam superpower. not good enough for c rank, this is a rly bad mon, drop to d pls. at least other c rank mons at least have some viability, like houndoom

Weavile in C rank

possible b rank imo. very fast fake out is super useful, as well as strong stabs in icicle crash and knock off. unfortunately is really frail and therefore prone to being revenge killed, as well as having a bad defensive typing - weak to many common priority moves. if it wasnt for this weakness id say definite b, which is why im on edge atm. also beat up is a viable option as biosci (i think) showed in his spl match alongside justified terrakion. b rank, id be ok with c though i guess

Dragonite falling to C rank

keep this in b. jake pretty much covered this. it has high attack so hits hard, dragon claws relatively low base power isnt a problem tbh. espeed is incredibly useful for picking off low health opponents, and sky drop can be used if you want for a free turn for your partner, as well as disabling one of the opponents pokemon for a turn. also multiscale is a great ability, it enables dnite to take almost any hit comfortably. as jake said, the fact that it gets double targeted and fake out targeted because of multiscale is a good thing. it opens up chances for your partner to take advantage of it, definitely b rank.

Blastoise falling to C rank

pretty cool mon, would definitely vouch for it to stay in c if it didnt use up your mega slot. muddy water is a nice spread move, if unreliable, and fake out is as useful as ever. has strong coverage with dark pulse and aura sphere, which can deal with a lot of the metagame, while water pulse can be used for a strong single target move if you predict a wide guard. if this was its own pokemon id definitely say b, but its just not strong enough and not fast enough to validate a mega spot a lot of the time, so c is good.

Zygarde falling to C rank

nope. zygarde may be worse than most other dragons, but its still worthy of b. its very bulky, so can act as a good pivot, as well as having access to the awesome land's wrath and rock slide for solid spread moves. attack stat is a bit low, but zygarde has access to both coil and dragon dance to act as a potential setup sweeper, which works suprisingle well thanks to zygardes great bulk. keep it in b imo

Entei falling to C rank

nyttyn is the most experience with this, and i basically agree with what he said. you cant really compare it to zardy and heatran, as they beat different pokemon - entei is physical and they are special. this is also part of the reason why its not a, along with the bad coverage. sacred fire is an awesome move, as is extremespeed, and they, along with good bulk and power, keep entei in b rank in my eyes.

no offense lolk, but it seems like you're fishing for pokemon to cause discussion with entei, zygarde and dragonite. these pokemon definitely arent worthy of c rank. if you dont think anything needs to move, dont nominate anything. let discussion for previous nominations happen, and only lock nominations if we get overloaded on them :/

 

[youngjake93]

ludicolo is really cool, and possibly one of the more underrated mons in smogdubs atm. its a brilliant rain sweeper, with near-perfect coverage in surf/giga drain/ice beam, able to hit almost everything for neutral (cant think of anything that resists it all tbh, but theres probably something). not only that, its solid on non rain teams too. with access to fake out, it can be very useful by incapacitating an opponents pokemon for a turn while your partner does as they please. assault vest is a set ive been testing out lately, and its pretty solid. ludicolo takes pretty much any special hit it wants to, and hits back with a relatively powerful stab move/ice beam. definitely good material for a rank.


for sure. dont have much to say here. assault vest goodra takes special hits all day every day and dishes them back with decent power, but doesnt take physical hits all that well (gooey is really cool speed control though)


im not so sure about this one. i think id probably say place it in C, but i dont have much to back that up tbh :/ its just not a very good mon, and id rather use conkeldurr, hitmontop, terrakion or scrafty in almost every situation. dynamicpunch no guard is enough for c rank, but i dont think it should go any higher. imo the other fighting mons are just better most of the time. i suppose id be ok with b, but c is the right place imo


i have no experience with this, but its a pretty cool bulky trick room setter, better than trevenant if you want a mon to sit there and take hits, while being able to set up trick room repeatedly. b rank is good


shitty mon, contrary superpower isnt enough to make up for the shit stats and bad typing. iirc people use scarf (pls confirm), but id rather use other dark or psychic mons tbh, or even fighting mons if you're just gonna spam superpower. not good enough for c rank, this is a rly bad mon, drop to d pls. at least other c rank mons at least have some viability, like houndoom


possible b rank imo. very fast fake out is super useful, as well as strong stabs in icicle crash and knock off. unfortunately is really frail and therefore prone to being revenge killed, as well as having a bad defensive typing - weak to many common priority moves. if it wasnt for this weakness id say definite b, which is why im on edge atm. also beat up is a viable option as biosci (i think) showed in his spl match alongside justified terrakion. b rank, id be ok with c though i guess


keep this in b. jake pretty much covered this. it has high attack so hits hard, dragon claws relatively low base power isnt a problem tbh. espeed is incredibly useful for picking off low health opponents, and sky drop can be used if you want for a free turn for your partner, as well as disabling one of the opponents pokemon for a turn. also multiscale is a great ability, it enables dnite to take almost any hit comfortably. as jake said, the fact that it gets double targeted and fake out targeted because of multiscale is a good thing. it opens up chances for your partner to take advantage of it, definitely b rank.


pretty cool mon, would definitely vouch for it to stay in c if it didnt use up your mega slot. muddy water is a nice spread move, if unreliable, and fake out is as useful as ever. has strong coverage with dark pulse and aura sphere, which can deal with a lot of the metagame, while water pulse can be used for a strong single target move if you predict a wide guard. if this was its own pokemon id definitely say b, but its just not strong enough and not fast enough to validate a mega spot a lot of the time, so c is good.


nope. zygarde may be worse than most other dragons, but its still worthy of b. its very bulky, so can act as a good pivot, as well as having access to the awesome land's wrath and rock slide for solid spread moves. attack stat is a bit low, but zygarde has access to both coil and dragon dance to act as a potential setup sweeper, which works suprisingle well thanks to zygardes great bulk. keep it in b imo


nyttyn is the most experience with this, and i basically agree with what he said. you cant really compare it to zardy and heatran, as they beat different pokemon - entei is physical and they are special. this is also part of the reason why its not a, along with the bad coverage. sacred fire is an awesome move, as is extremespeed, and they, along with good bulk and power, keep entei in b rank in my eyes.

no offense lolk, but it seems like you're fishing for pokemon to cause discussion with entei, zygarde and dragonite. these pokemon definitely arent worthy of c rank. if you dont think anything needs to move, dont nominate anything. let discussion for previous nominations happen, and only lock nominations if we get overloaded on them :/

Yea we need +/- tiers for a lot of reasons mentioned here(something to discuss, more accurate, etc)
Also lol Deo-A, Manaphy, Gastrodon, Gourgeist, Rotom-C, Darkrai, Rhyperior and Ampharos are all in C and are better than Entei. Although DeoA still strikes me as odd(it can very often go 2 for 1 which is more than most do in A and S tbh). However, you know more about Entei than I do as I never justified trying it out even over Arcanine which was not that bad.

 

[Level 51]

ludicolo is really cool, and possibly one of the more underrated mons in smogdubs atm. its a brilliant rain sweeper, with near-perfect coverage in surf/giga drain/ice beam, able to hit almost everything for neutral (cant think of anything that resists it all tbh, but theres probably something). not only that, its solid on non rain teams too. with access to fake out, it can be very useful by incapacitating an opponents pokemon for a turn while your partner does as they please. assault vest is a set ive been testing out lately, and its pretty solid. ludicolo takes pretty much any special hit it wants to, and hits back with a relatively powerful stab move/ice beam. definitely good material for a rank.

I'd just like to add onto this to say that Ludicolo also ignores Rage Powder, in case you guys forgot. A Rank for sure, A+ Rank when that comes into existence.

 

[Bughouse]

I generally stay out of viability threads, but I thought I'd respond to this one:

Gourgeist in B​

Yes. It should be wherever Trevenant is, and even a little higher because Frisk is very helpful, which yeah Trev can do too, but without Harvest it loses its one niche over Gourgeist. If B+ existed, I'd put it there. It is worth specifying which Gourgeist form we're talking about is. My experience is purely with Super. No idea if the other sizes are worth it.


(EDIT: Haruno, can't even let a man fix his mistake within 1 minute? Damn you're quick on the response)

 

[Haruno]

I generally stay out of viability threads, but I thought I'd respond to this one:

Gourgeist in B​

Yes. It should be wherever Trevenant is, and even a little higher because Frisk is very helpful. If B+ existed, I'd put it there. It is worth specifying which Gourgeist form we're talking about is. My experience is purely with Super. No idea if the other sizes are worth it.

all gorgeist has over trevenant is noticeably higher physical bulk and trick or treat (trevenant also has frisk).

edit: ily srk <3

 

[youngjake93]

Doesn't tree have slightly higher attack, and the much better wood hammer+horn leech though...? Also the higher special bulk seems to make sense for a grass type with WoW.
Not saying Gorgeist isn't legit(dat physical bulk is sweeet), but idk about getting on the hype train just because it is better than people gave it credit for initially.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Ludicolo rising to A rank - Definitely agree with this. I think it's a better Rain abuser than Kingdra in many ways really, such as how it can completely ignore Amoonguss and it manhandles Rotom-W, both of which are considered to be solid checks to Drizzle sweepers. In addition, it has Fake Out, the fastest one available too when in Rain. If it was just reliant on Rain then B rank could be more appropriate, but you can use it very successfully without Rain anyways, using it as a check to many common Pokemon. As icing on the cake, all of its abilities are solid too. So yeah A rank let's go.

Machamp in B rank - No, not really. It is slow and has Wide Guard and DynamicPunch, but it faces competition from a bunch of other Fighting-types right now, multiple of which have Wide Guard and other things that give it more general utility than Machamp. Unless you're using other things that can really take advantage of the confusion, there really isn't a reason to use this.

Weavile in C rank - Yes, it should be there. Fake Out is already awesome, but it's got high Speed and a nice STAB combination (Knock Off buff is especially useful) that makes it p. threatening. While it still has a good amount of flaws such as being frail and having poor Defensive typing, its benefits are more than D rank at least.

Malamar in C rank - Yeah, should be there. It has a lot of flaws such as middling stats, low BP moves, and Dark/Psychic not being that great defensively, so it isn't going to be threatening teams consistently. However, it isn't terrible either, since its attacking options are pretty cool, Intimidate being p. common gives you plenty of opportunities for free stat boosts, and it has a few cool moves in its arsenal. Ain't very amazing but not bad enough to be D rank either. If there was a low C I'd put it there but for now C rank works.

Dragonite falling to C rank - Yeah, there are so many better Dragons that I really wouldn't use it for the most part. Salamence packs intimidate, Kyurem-B just has raw power, Mega Charizard X runs a more threatening DD set, etc. The most threatening set I've ever seen it run is a Weakness Policy DD set, and outside of DD it doesn't really do much successfully. This lack of versatility and the large amount of competition it faces is enough to place it in C rank imo.

Entei falling to C rank. - Yes please. All it really has is Sacred Fire. 50% burn chance is sweet but it faces competition from a bunch of other Fire-types, especially Arcanine which has better coverage and an infinitely better ability in Intimidate. Victini also has a stronger STAB option and a nice secondary coverage move, which would be a good reason to use it over Entei.

 

[nyttyn]

Entei falling to C rank. - Yes please. All it really has is Sacred Fire. 50% burn chance is sweet but it faces competition from a bunch of other Fire-types, especially Arcanine which has better coverage and an infinitely better ability in Intimidate. Victini also has a stronger STAB option and a nice secondary coverage move, which would be a good reason to use it over Entei.

Entei's main STAB option (and both main coverage options) is suicidal, though which is a major minus. As well as the fact that it has worse bulk (though this is offset by Intimdiate access). Meanwhile, Victini's STAB option is basically suicide for it as well outside of Trick Room, though Victini IS a cool mon. That said, I'm not sure how either of them are relevant to how good Entei is though. Even if it faces competition, it is still a damn good mon, and it is by far the best option for a non-suicidal physical fire attacker.

 

[Lasagne]

i was looking at the rankings and thinking about some pokemon i think should be brought up a rank from c to b (which ill propose next round), and i really properly realised the massive swelling taking place in B rank atm. Because of this, I'm taking back my opposition about Zygarde and Entei - I'm fine with them dropping to C after looking at the list as a whole, since we really do need to drop some of the less impressive B rank mons (I still believe Dragonite should stay B rank). Keeping my opinions on all other nominations.

 

[bearcanine]

shitty mon, contrary superpower isnt enough to make up for the shit stats and bad typing.

Malamar in C rank - Yeah, should be there. It has a lot of flaws such as middling stats, low BP moves, and Dark/Psychic not being that great defensively,

Scizor, Genesect, and Volcarona are prominent threats but Bug in general is an uncommon attack type. Every viable Bug pokemon has an exploitable x4 weakness, just like Malamar, so it's not without risk. U-Turn is really the biggest danger to him. Fairy is still finding its way into the meta, and I don't think its usage is frequent enough to be a crippling weakness. I'd argue that Malamar has a pretty good defensive typing.

 

[Lasagne]

Scizor, Genesect, and Volcarona are prominent threats but Bug in general is an uncommon attack type. Every viable Bug pokemon has an exploitable x4 weakness, just like Malamar, so it's not without risk. U-Turn is really the biggest danger to him. Fairy is still finding its way into the meta, and I don't think its usage is frequent enough to be a crippling weakness. I'd argue that Malamar has a pretty good defensive typing.

Dark/Psychic is immune to Psychic, and has no other resistances. You can not seriously call this a good defensive typing. It is very weak to Bug, which as you stated yourself, is commonly used by Pokemon such as Genesect, Volcarona and Scizor, as well as threats like Pinsir and Heracross. Fairy is commonly used by Pokemon such as Azumarill, Mawile, Gardevoir and Sylveon. These are all legitimate threats, and all threaten Malamar by either outspeeding and OHKOing or being able to take any move that Malamar wants to use and easily OHKO in return. Also, since it has no resistances, many of the tier's top threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Kangaskhan can simply use their powerful STAB moves (Heat Wave and Return/Double-Edge respectively) to break through Malamar's bad defenses with no consequences.

 

[Darkmalice]

Entei's main STAB option (and both main coverage options) is suicidal, though which is a major minus. As well as the fact that it has worse bulk (though this is offset by Intimdiate access). Meanwhile, Victini's STAB option is basically suicide for it as well outside of Trick Room, though Victini IS a cool mon. That said, I'm not sure how either of them are relevant to how good Entei is though. Even if it faces competition, it is still a damn good mon, and it is by far the best option for a non-suicidal physical fire attacker.

V-create isn't exactly suicidal, as the stat drops are negated by switching, like Close Combat. Admittedly the drops usually force a switch out unless your in TR. Zard X can also run Fire Punch if it really wants a non-suicidal attack, though I admit this is a bad idea.

Victini and Mega-Zard X have significantly more power than Entei with roughly the same bulk and a better movepool, and better abilities. Power + great burn chance is awesome, though who cares about a chance to burn the opposing Pokemon if you can severely dent it or outright KO it, and this is a metagame in which good teams are already well-prepared for Entei as they do so whilst preparing for Zard Y and Heatran. Whilst many of the switch-ins to Fire-type attacks don't like the chance of a burn, Mega Zard X can also hit most of the switch-ins to Fire-type attacks hard with Dragon Claw - Heatran is a notable exception, though Entei needs Bulldoze to get past it. I say Entei for C-rank (C+ if it existed). I should say that I haven't used Entei though, so take my advice with a grain of salt - I do realise I'm arguing against the person who has used it the most. People are also overstating the value of a physical Fire-type attack - Intimidate is wide-spread.

Regarding the discussion about Malamar's typing, it is bad on the whole but it has its perks. With no resistances and only one immunity, it is very difficult to find switch ins. It generally comes in after a KO. But with only 2 weaknesses that aren't very common (whilst not uncommon, are not as popular as others that dominate the metagame like Fire- and Rock-), it is harder to outright KO, which was one of the perks that makes Garchomp great as a sweeper (more so in previous generations when Fairy-type didn't exist). It also helps that "surprise" Bug- and Fairy-type attacks are rare. This is helpful for netting Superpower Contrary boosts. It's also helpful if you use a TR Malamar set, particularly with Sitrus Berry, though there are better TR users unless you really want anti-Intimidate + TR user in one. It's bulk isn't that good though.

Anyways Malamar for C rank, C- if given the choice. Bisharp is better for anti-Intimidate, though they have different perks. Most Fighting-types will deal more damage with Close Combat or their own Superpower than a +1 Malamar - you need some turns to make efficient use of it. Otherwise as everyone as said, bad Pokemon with perks that can justify its use alas barely.

[EDIT]
Machamp in C rank. C+ if could. No Guard Dynamic Punch is good, though I find it's better to just muscle through things with a better chance of a KO instead of relying on confusion. Confusion doesn't mean much when Machamp moves last, and the confused Pokemon can just switch out, giving no chances to score confusion hax. In terms of muscle, Conkeldurr is better, and it also has overall better bulk. The speed difference between the two is little, as few things have speed in between them. Conk also has Mach Punch to compensate for its speed. Conkeldurr can also bluff Guts better and is better with Guts, so it doesn't fear a burn as much, where as No Guard exposes you more to Will-O-Wisp. Whilst Machamp could theoretical run a Guts set with Close Combat, the lack of Mach Punch makes it essentially inferior than Conk. If you're dead set on Close Combat, Terrakion always exists.

Someone mentioned that it's like an in-between of Hitmontop and Conkeldurr, but it's really much closer to Conk, as the only support move it has over Conk is Quick Guard - Conk can run Wide Guard too. Quick Guard admittedly isn't bad though usually Mach Punch is better.

To make it clear, it's mainly the competition with Conk that Machamp gets C rank - it would definitely be B rank otherwise. Its perks don't really justify its use over Conk unless you're using a team that focuses heavily on paralysis.

After re-reading the tier descriptions, I feel Machamp fits the B-rank description better than C-rank. I have bolded the relevant part in the B-rank description, where as it does not actually meet the C-rank description.

Reserved for Pokemon that can fulfill a viable role in the Doubles metagame, but are either somewhat outclassed by Pokemon in a higher rank, or have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to full extent. The Pokemon in this tier are usually predictable, and either require team support to work to it's full potential, or might provide free turns for the opponent. The flaws that the pokemon in this tier have are sometimes mitigated by their positive traits, or can be patched with some team support.

In all honesty, if I were to ignore the description of B-rank and C-rank, I would give Machamp C-rank. The description of C-rank is too harsh in my opinion and I feel should be less harsh to better suit Pokemon like Machamp. This may be a reason why there are too many B-rank Pokemon.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Entei's main STAB option (and both main coverage options) is suicidal, though which is a major minus. As well as the fact that it has worse bulk (though this is offset by Intimdiate access). Meanwhile, Victini's STAB option is basically suicide for it as well outside of Trick Room, though Victini IS a cool mon. That said, I'm not sure how either of them are relevant to how good Entei is though. Even if it faces competition, it is still a damn good mon, and it is by far the best option for a non-suicidal physical fire attacker.

The problem is Entei isn't a damn good mon as you put it. Competition from other Fire-types is just one reason for it to not be C, and is completely valid when said competition outclasses you for the most part. Entei might be B if it was your only option for a Fire-type or something, however when there are multiple better Pokemon to fill the role then I don't see why one would use Entei consistently, especially when its niche is so small.

 

[nyttyn]

The problem is Entei isn't a damn good mon as you put it. Competition from other Fire-types is just one reason for it to not be C, and is completely valid when said competition outclasses you for the most part. Entei might be B if it was your only option for a Fire-type or something, however when there are multiple better Pokemon to fill the role then I don't see why one would use Entei consistently, especially when its niche is so small.

Yes, but it also outclasses almost the entirety of C tier by a significant margin. And that's why I'm so opposed to it dropping - The only significant reason that people are trying to get it to drop to C is that it is outclassed by Victini in some aspects, and outclassed by both S tier fire mons (which, again, are S rank). It certainly is not outclassed by Arcanine. I also meant to say Arcanine instead of Entie earlier, shit.

Seriously, i'm not arguing that Entei is amazing, but it is good. Good enough for B tier between ExtremeSpeed, Sacred Fire, and its bulk. Certainly it isn't as shitty as Jolten or Mantine, and it definitely can hold its weight more then enough in the standard team. Again, definiton of B rank:

Reserved for Pokemon that can fulfill a viable role in the Doubles metagame, but are either somewhat outclassed by Pokemon in a higher rank, or have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to full extent. The Pokemon in this tier are usually predictable, and either require team support to work to it's full potential, or might provide free turns for the opponent. The flaws that the pokemon in this tier have are sometimes mitigated by their positive traits, or can be patched with some team support.

Entei has notable flaws that prevents it from fulfilling its role to a full extent, yes, and requires some team support to get working, but its sheer power, ability to screw over even resists, access to priority, and bulk are sufficient to make it B rank, and outweigh its flaw of poor coverage options. Certainly not C rank.

Reserved for Pokemon that can work within the Doubles metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance, or require too much specific team support to synergize with most teams. Support Pokemon in this tier have a hard time creating free turns, and often allow the opponent to capitalize on the opportunity to create free turns for themselves.

I've played literally over a hundred matches with it, and in those matches and amongst all the teams it has been on, I have never felt like Entei's flaws prevented consistent performance, nor did it require terribly much team support.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Ok, the idea that entei is a better pokemon than everything else in c rank is just false. Pokemon such as Rotom-c, deoxys-a, goodra, and arcanine (the last of which gives significant competition to entei for a slot which you keep ignoring despite me bringing it up) are all able to perform just as well as if not better than Entei. It fits right in w/ C rank. Just because you enjoy using it doesn't make it as viable as you're trying to make it sound, especially when everyone else seems to be of a contrary opinion

 

[Pocket]

I agree with Darkmalice that the description for C rank may be too harsh, thus causing a lot of Pokemon to end up in B rank.

nyttyn, feel free to post some replays here of Entei in action, so others who have less experience would change their mind. However, as of now it seems no better than Arcanine, who has better abilities and a more diverse movepool. Entei's Sacred Fire alone is not going to bump it up to B rank.

I personally think Machamp is on par or even better than some of the Fighting-types listed in B rank (Gallade / Virizion / Hariyama), but this may just mean that those Fighting-types need to drop. Perfectly accurate Dynamic Punch and Stone Edge are pretty clutch imo, and its overall bulk and movepool is decent to great. Machamp makes for a frightening TR sweeper. Unlike the aforementioned three, it can even run Focus Energy to have a 100% crit rate Cross Chop and Stone Edge with perfect accuracy. Landing critical hits mean it dgaf about Intimidate. If using up a moveslot isn't worth it, I guess you can use up an itemslot for Scope Lens to have a perfect accurate Cross Chop / Stone Edge that crits 50% of the time. Machamp's Speed can be circumvented with Jolly Scarf, which can be effective in nailing Charizard, Kangaskhan, Thundurus-T, Landorus, and Garchomp by surprise.

Not sure if I justified Machamp's B ranking, but either it goes up or some of the Fighting-types need to drop imo

EDIT: Eh, actually I feel like I am overselling Machamp now. Since we're trying to slim the B list down, I prefer moving Machamp (and the other Fighting-types I listed) down to C.

 

[Lolk]

Okay I changed a few things with the B rank and C rank descriptions:

B Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the Doubles metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to it's full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.

C Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the Doubles metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here.

The most important thing was moving the mention of being outclassed from B rank to C rank. B rank is too big and outclassed Pokemon shouldn't be in the same tier as Pokemon with solid roles in the metagame.

I also made C rank more positive. People need to get out of their heads that C rank Pokemon are bad Pokemon. If they sucked, they would be in E rank.

Also, I am cool with making all of the D rank Pokemon E rank (and just emphasizing that they are E rank) and putting some of the worse C rank Pokemon in D rank. This way it is easier for some of the worse B rank Pokemon to fall to C and not be together with some of the terribad C Pokemon. Talk to me on irc if you like this plan.

Nevertheless, don't compare Pokemon in the same rank that have completely different roles lol. Entei may be better than most of the Pokemon in C rank, but as a Fire-type, it is C rank when compared to Zard and Tran.