Mithril said:
which results in tangents and I generally feel that it distracts from the game. He also was overly concerned with how he was perceived from the different votes, which bothers me somewhat. However, ht has been helpful and been trying to push forward discussion when he really has no reason to.
I want to nip this right now. It's one thing for people like Jalmont, Celever, and Spiffy to say that. Especially when the first might be mafia. But Mithril, how exactly am I "creating tangent and causing distractions" while also "being helpful and pushing discussion forward?" We've seen days where I was busy with work. NOTHING HAPPENED. Did the people I "argued with" offer anything to move the game along when it was free from distractions? Hell no.
In my mind I've only ever created discussion. What players do with that is up to them. When I suggest that some players might be mafia, they OMGUS me. Now after Day 2 there wasn't any arguments for a while, and now we had one that lasted two hours (but I have a feeling there's about to be another one), and people start spewing this shit again? Come up with better ideas than a non-MYLO mass claim before riding my ass for making the game move.
Here's a thought. And I might get accused of OMGUS, but as far as I can tell, half the game is pretty cool with OMGUSing already.
The first thing I'd like to call attention to is that seemingly no mafia have yet been caught on the Cancerous vote. If we feel like removing Fatecrashers and Spiffy from the equation, that leaves rssp1/Odd Ghost and Jalmont. The later of which started the Cancerous train.
But eh, that's just food for thought.
So I'm gonna do the unwise thing and let Celever make me lose sleep over having to play a mafia game with him. I try to ignore his posts, but don't think I didn't catch the first out of the gate Day 5 post where he suddenly put me near the top of his scum list. Like, where did that even come from? And this wasn't even as of the BPV discussion (but more on that later!), this was right at the start of Day 5. He certainly didn't really explain his read, chalking my actions up to my personality, which means jack and shit. Now I
had just mislynched someone, it's true. So he could have said that. It'd be flawed reasoning of course; everyone admits the sunny lynch seemed solid. But what could possibly have changed... hmm...
Could it be that one my most trusted and rational backers, ButteredToast had just been killed by the mafia? I know at least of the remaining players are probably gonna say that statement is a bit liberal, but if you think you'd have gotten a lynch on me past him, you're a more ambitious man that I am and that's saying something. Of course the mafia has total control over who they kill, and now look at the roster. With 8 players, it would take 5 to lynch me. And you've left alive two players who I kinda maybe sort of have off an on accused of being mafia. Usually that wouldn't be a good reason to lynch someone, but they've made it clear in the past that it's enough for them. Assuming that Jalmont is town, all you'd need is to convince a single person between Fatecrashers, Mithril, Odd Ghost, and PokeguyNXB that I'm mafia and then whoever your partner is can hammer it. Or better yet! Just wait for us to run out of ideas and vote out of apathy. Lynching me would be a big get, as you're gonna have to save that night kill for Spiffy and Fate.
So what has really driven Celever to lynch me? He's pretty damn insistent on it now. The votes out. He keeps saying he wants it. And I mean I did put my foot in my mouth accusing Spiffy of maybe not being squeaky clean. And I don't regret that for a second. I didn't know how notification worked in this game, but if that "argument" did nothing but put my fears of Spiffy being mafia to rest, that should be considered a small victory. But Celever at least seems to think otherwise. Hmm, that's interesting, because I see in that recent vote recap that there was a lone Spiffy lynch vote yesterday. From Celever no less. Let's check out his reasoning...
Celever said:
I've noticed something about Spiffy. I can't go back and check (there's actually no WiFi at my campsite, so I'm reduced to a phone) but let's take a look at Spiffy's lynching patterns, more specifically his timings. Day 1, the Cancerous lynch was extremely rushed, Spiffy being a large advocate, and HD was the second target. Day 3, once again, Amianki's lynch was extremely rushed and at the end, this also being on a very slow and inactive day. Day 2 was the anomaly here, where the scum HD was lynched. IIRC, Spiffy had been advocating his lynch all day.
So in other words, Spiffy has been "stealthing" the lynches by decreasing the users that are on at the time of the lynch target being really pushed. This is an interesting tactic for mafia to use, and can last a while without anyone noticing. Of course, I have to also address HD. I think that Spiffy pretty much betrayed his team for towniecred, and decided to satiate his own wants and needs instead of working as a team, something which I think he also did in Mario Kart NOC, where he was scum. This is why he was adamant to lynch HD the whole day.
Following this trend, Fate could be Spiffy's scumbuddy, but that's merely speculation.
Unlynch Sunny004
Lynch Spiffy
Hey, woah, even I never called Spiffy a LARGE ADVOCATE of the Cancerous lynch. I just wanted him to talk about his reasons for lynching. He said he did it out of self-defense. Oh he was pretty belligerent and stifling when I was trying to generate discussion, that's a fact, but he was NEVER a LARGE ADVOCATE. I'm honestly surprised
Spiffy let that comment go. At this point Spiffy kinda seems like my dog. See my dog will bark and bark at nothing at all, but when there's an actual cat in the yard, she just never knows it's there.
Then you accuse Spiffy of stealth decreasing votes on a lynch. Well, I've accused him of the decreasing part, but "Stealth". "Hey guys, don't vote for HD today" is NOT stealthy. This is an inane accusation.
But of course I'm kind of dancing around the real smoking gun here. Why were you trying to lynch the clean BPV player at all? At least I came up with a few scenarios (that got closed out) where he MIGHT be lying. You didn't even bother. And people just let that go? Am I not the only who doesn't like to read your posts?
Okay, let's get this arduous task of looking through Celever's play post by post... I think the above is more important that anything I'm likely to find but I'll
bold just in case I feel something needs attention.
The first thing that interests me, given some of the accusations that have been leveled against me for my argumentativeness, is the argument Celever started with Spiffy early day 1. Now you might be saying, c'mon vonFiedler, careful with glass house (though that's what I'm accusing Celever of, partially), but it's notable that this day 1 argument seems to be over literally nothing. Celever decided to ride Spiffy's ass for reasons, and then bickered once every hour that Spiffy wasn't posting. If any fight could be called pointless and distracting, it was this one. Didn't seem to be Spiffy's fault this time.
In post #344, right after Spiffy first decides he wants HD lynched, Celever makes a snide passive-aggressive remark about it, but then goes on to give a fairly non-committal read on HD. Hell, he repeats that read almost verbatim in post #380.
#411 In this post Celever is the only one who seems to give a crap about HD's time zone rants. It's non-committal once again. "I totally believe you on a point that doesn't matter, but maybe he is scum so don't hurt me if he is".
#429 When I ask for informal votes, only Celever gives 3. HD is the 3rd choice listed after Sunny and Spiffy. I wasn't even sure whether to count that vote or not, it was a pretty lame thing to do. But it's also an easy way to pretend to support a lynch while not actually making an effort.
#442 After riding Spiffy's ass the whole day, he starts a lynch post rant with "you had a strong start". What? More of a bad cliche than really indicative of alignment, I'll admit.
#458 Celever claims that "literally every player would soft claim" when in HD's position (that being slight attention at the time). Keep in mind that Celever would later grill (or pretend to) HD's ass hard over that soft claim.
#490 Celever tries to talk Lightwolf out of lynching HD. Keep in mind that by the end of day only LW and I were lynching HD. Celever
really wanted people not to be lynching HD.
At this point it's kind of canny how many points I make that Celever just repeats. If I were an outsider, I'd probably think WE were the last two mafia. That or he's only pretending to contribute by repeating the things I say.
#496 Lightwolf gets RIGHT up Celever's ass, and in true Celever to Lightwolf fashion, he chickens out of responding by blaming his crippling alcohol addiction.
And then at this point Lightwolf is killed. Now Lightwolf comes across fairly well as a namekill. And it's probably a stretch to suggest otherwise, or at least it helps, but this is a THOROUGH post so I'm gonna suggest it anyway. Lightwolf and Celever don't particularly get along well. Especially in NOC. We've left Celever alone for the most part. LW would not have. Not if Celever was mafia or even if he was village. Now in the wake of Lightwolf shutting Celever down HARDCORE in post #496, LW suddenly dies. It's subtle. No one noticed, I sure didn't. So I wouldn't say it's WIFOM and that it's supposed to come across this way. But looking back with a magnifying glass, it's hard to ignore. Could this be nothing? Sure! But these maybes pile up after a while, and that's kind of what this post is.
#533 I'm sure everyone remembers a little spat at the beginning of Day 2 where I wanted people to reexamine their intentions for voting for Cancerous. I got a lot of flak for that, and it started some heated discussions. But I really just wanted some discussion going, and it was baffling to me as that discussion was so quickly stifled. But I think I know why. I think it's because before a reasonable discussion had the chance to happen, Celever came and vowed to lynch someone on the Cancerous wagon. That wasn't my intention. But it kinda got stuck to my posts somehow. And I had to defend myself from being associated with it. Now I wasn't really in a position to criticize Celever, all I said was "calm down guy", but I do know I thought "hmm, that's a rash response". But it's also somewhat in line with his general behavior.
#534 & #535 Celever and HD have a little laugh about the post restriction. It's about the closest thing to a knowing glance I think you'll ever find in an online mafia game. But what I feel the need to point out is the power of implication in Celever's post. HD calls the PR a set-up, and we can now be fairly certain that this was the mafia trying to confuse the village. But to what end? Then Celever says something a bit odd when off-the-cuff. " I assumed from the message that the announcer is Spiffy." Now what is the story there, I wonder? And I mean that literally, what's the narrative they are trying to sell? What IF the mafia wanted people to think that THE MAFIA thought that HD was the announcer? And then, by extension, if the mafia thought that, then HD surely couldn't be mafia. So Celever comes right out with it. "I thought Spiffy was the announcer". As in, whoever PR'd HD thought otherwise. I ask anyone reading this, was that a rational reaction within minutes of the day cycle starting and the PR being revealed?
Now after this HD goes a bit ham with the PR thing, talking this and that about how he's being set up or some shit, and just in general calling a bunch of attention to himself. He's obviously not handling this well. When in swoops Celever:
There's little point in focusing on the start of the fight between Celever and HD. If he's bussing his teammate, he's gonna know exactly how to do it. But it truly brightened my day to see Celever claim to be good at reading others.
#582 Yet even after his first big post against HD, he still fits in a suggestion to lynch sunny004. Curious given that he had JUST called for heads to roll after the Cancerous lynch.
Wow I almost don't want to do this. This hurts me a little bit. I'm sure we all remember Jalmont calling people out on Day 2 for not opposing the Cancerous lynch, and generally how full of crap that was.
But not entirely, I'm afraid.
You call me out, I will defend myself. Celever asks for heads to roll after the Cancerous lynch. Made no effort to stop it at the time. And when asked why, he says in
#587 that he was asleep. But let's look the timing of when he goes to bed. Literally a few posts before the people start voting for people started voting for Cancerous. Spiffy had called off his vote on HD, and Celever was against an HD lynch. And the Spiffy lynch was going no where. How easy would it be to sit back, let the Cancerous lynch happen, and then be vindictive the next day? And let's not forget; Lightwolf called him out on this drinking stuff.
Celever the 13 year old has been previously caught lying about drinking to duck out of mafia. This is why a mafia Celever just can't have a Lightwolf villager.
#598 Here Celever tries to gain Brownie points by claiming that LW was "obviously town". Mind you, Spiffy had just done so as well, so it's not scummy in and of itself, but I wonder if LW was so obviously town where was that read on Day 1? Instead Celever was always on the wrong side of LW.
#612 Here's the real meat of the HD/Celever mini argument. They bicker about semantics. HD defends himself poorly, as he want to do with everyone. Then Celever abruptly declares that everything HD says is reasonable. You couldn't make an argument seem more manufactured. So they PR HD, HD comes out of the start of Day 2 VERY poorly, Celever gives him a VERY minor trial, and then declares him innocent. Mostly. Even now he gives his non-commital "I still think you scum slipped (referring to some semantics BS that I pointed out didn't hold grammatical water), but I worry that I can't incriminate you". Keep that in mind, cause if that's why he ultimately is against the HD lynch, on the day HD got lynched, it'll look pretty bad.
#618 Yep, didn't take many posts for him to really get on HD's side. Now he's suggesting outright that HD IS the announcer, while also giving him an out to not actually claim. As long as HD MAY be announcer, the real announcer won't couterclaim him, nor would the village lynch him. I think that's the reasoning. But as for the post, he suggests that if HD claims announcer he's worried that he'd get lynched. Umm, why? Why unless Celever KNOWS there would be a counter-claim?
#651 Celever deflate pressure on the HD lynch, including unvoting. Some of his reasoning is sound enough. But then he says that HD has done NOTHING suspicious except that scumslip that Celever was going on about (and that he admitted wouldn't stick), and that he's not dead? When LW was a pretty good name target? Whatever happened to thinking that he either is the announcer or that the mafia thinks this? Why would they waste a kill on the announcer? As another player would later say, "HD's skill at the game in conjunction with this claimed power role most likely didn't equate to a kill worthy of killing over someone like LightWolf who is an extremely good player to start with."
#653 Oh wait, that's THIS POST. Two posts later contradicts himself. In other words, "there's only two things against HD. no one fucking cares about the first thing, and in two posts I'm gonna say the second thing isn't a thing either". Subtle. And not to mention he's now OMGUSing
on HD's behalf!!! And lynching sunny as a result, which I already said is contradictory given "just how much he was against a Cancerous lynch".
#665 And now the "scumslip" is "nowhere near bad enough to lynch HD".
At this point, in spite of vowing to go to bed (which it seems doesn't mean he won't watch the thread), Celever throws a fit and keeps demanding that we don't lynch HD and instead lynch Sunny. Again, odd behavior on the later part given his retroactive opposition to a Cancerous lynch.
A few of you want to think that no player could be dumb enough to defend their scum teammate this much. Well, you're gonna be disappointed. You're making a WIFOM argument anyway. That could easily have been a tactic to illicit just such a response. I won't say it's a good plan, but that doesn't mean Celever wouldn't do it. But honestly? This is Celever. He almost certainly just thought he could actually sway the lynch enough to save HD.
But there is an interesting post eventually:
#982 HD was a big open wound for a lot of players. Spiffy called off a lynch on him on Day 1 because he was afraid of lynching someone with a Power Role. I bet he regrets that decision. But that soft claim was a big sticking point for players throughout Day 2, even though I tried arguing that it shouldn't be. But everyone was really afraid to lynch someone with a PR. In this post, for the first time, Celever changes strategy and twists the knife in that wound. "You also cannot hide behind a PR claim. He claimed PR. Why are you trying to lynch a PR?".
Celever, who had spent the day arguing that HD shouldn't claim, now also argues that someone who soft claims should never be lynched.
#1062 "post numbers mean nothing". Well fuck. And I've been working on this for hours now. No, post numbers are the number where you can find the post in question. Laziness is not an excuse to drop a discussion when someone calls you out on scummy behavior (which Amianki, neutral, just had).
#1063 I'm actually reading these new posts popping up while I make this one. Fatecrashers takes Celever's suggestion that HD could have set me up as town and says that it might apply to Pokeguy. Interesting that Celever couldn't have come to the same conclusion. Now keep that in mind. Because there were three prominent inactive players this game, not counting Ullar who needed to be subbed.
Cancerous, a lynch that Celever was retroactively against.
Sunny004, who, in spite of said opposition to Cancerous lynch, Celever was strongly in favor of lynching throughout several game days. And
PokeguyNXB, who Celever never touched at all. Why the different reaction to all three players? Now I bring this up here because on Day 3,
while Celever is still trying to lynch Sunny004 for inactivity, he jumps down Spiffy's throat for suggesting a PokeguyNXB lynch on the same grounds.
#1084 Celever scolds the host for trying help organize the game. It's not even that I totally disagree with him, but it is something the mafia stands more to gain getting mad about.
#1088 Even though HD's full role PM was flipped when he died, Celever tries to obfuscate things by claiming that the role only inspected character names. A clear attempt to cause confusion or play dumb so as not to seem mafia.
HOOOOH this is beautiful
#1082 is actually a Mithril post. Mithril outright says that as a teammate of HD, Celever would have to be an idiot based on his actions. Then what happens? HD deadtalks and is fucking mad about it. "Why is Mithril rude?" Maybe nothing. But then what? Celever gets
super pissy over HD dead-talking. "Stop posting, holy shit." Honestly, to most of us HD's post probably seemed innocuous. But not to Celever. And as loose-lipped as HD was while alive, I don't blame him.
On Day 3, even though he's been pushing a Sunny lynch for two days, he does nothing to oppose an Amianki lynch. Well, why would a villager. But then, why would mafia either? If Celever is the kind of guy who always believes he is right, and showed it with HD (and is trying desperately to show it now with me), why would he just let the Amianki lynch happen when he seems to have absolutely no thoughts on Amianki either way, but has a "certain" target in Sunny?
#1130 I think this is a big one that I worry will get dismissed. No disrespect to the hosts, it seems like you made a fine enough game. But in between arguments, high inactivity, and few scum reads, I don't think it's unsafe to say that few villagers are having fun. It's not purely a matter of losing, not that we are losing too badly or anything. But that in an inactive environment, there's just no fun to be had for proactive villagers. Not that it's gonna be a lot fun for the mafia to get an easy win that way, but I'm sure that for some players it would be. Especially those with egos like Celever has. So that's what I want people to take from post #1130. When everyone else was barely posting and debating between which bad read to lynch, Celever was sitting back and feeling good. Think about it.
Celever's Day 4 behavior is kind of tricky due to him being on vacation. I'm not going to assume that he lied about that. And yet, after much time trying to lynch Sunny004, on the day that Sunny004 actually gets lynched he suddenly changes gears and tries to lynch Spiffy. Giving him plausible deniability on the Sunny lynch, not that it would be needed or anything. It's really hard to say whether he saw my lynch post or could have predicted it. I'd love for all this to mean something, but it probably doesn't.
#1205 "OK, well I was... wrong about sunny... and was wrong about HD before............." And now you're going for a hat trick! I kid, I'm sure you know who is and isn't mafia. And again he makes a non-committal post calling Pokeguy sincere. I almost didn't bold this at first, but then I noticed that Celever
thinks that BT dying was useful. One of the most prominent and trusted townies dying is good in Celever's book. And what use did Celever actually get out of it? He said he'd examine BT's reads, but then he didn't. Trying to appear useful while not following through!
#1207 Playing dumb again, but this one is particularly grating. Celever can't remember whether SB was a tracker or a watcher. Silly Celever, if you were a villager you could have checked the front page. But this is the same post where he assumes that the mafia had inspected SB. So if the mafia inspected SB, and Celever didn't know SB's role, then of course Celever can't be mafia! #CeleverSubtle
#1211 Of course this is the post where suddenly I'm a scum read for Celever, but far more importantly, it's the post where he tries to convince us that there are three mafia live. Giving us an increased sense of urgency and more wiggle room to hit someone. Yeah... pretty crude attempt.
#1305 Celever "just hadn't noticed until now that HD had voted for me!" Yeah, I'll bet it wasn't at all obvious to someone who might have suggested him to do the same thing with Pokeguy.
#1315 Random and out of the blue? I had just fucked him in the lynch! Hard and fast! And as this is OMGUS mafia, it should hardly be surprising that he threw a fit and tried to lynch me. Honestly, I take the slightest comfort in knowing that you can't, what with already having a vote on me.
So there you have it. I hope you guys read my
3 hour long post. For the record, I'm only accusing PokeguyNXB in a supplemental sense. When Celever flips mafia, he'll be worth looking at, and we'll have a bit of a buffer from a successful lynch. I'm not gonna bother appealing to Jalmont, but Spiffy if all your praise for me during my last game meant anything, you will give serious thought to at least half of this post. It's a wonderful collections of smoking guns, scum signs, and supplemental evidence. I could find fault with almost every post he made. Right now he's counting on you to give into your emotions and lynch me just because I've cast an eye on you. But no one has really given serious thought to whether Celever might or might not be mafia until now, and that's the kind of busy work that we need to get through this.
