Gengar (QC 1/2)

[Lord Wallace]

Gengar #094

Overview
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- Great offensive stats.
- Terrifying support movepool and decent offensive movepool.
- 3 Immunities given by typing and ability gives it switch-in opportunities.
- Nifty Mega-Evolution.
- Good offensive typing.
- Offensive variants make a decent check to Azumarril, Aegislash and Gourgeist while Perish Trappers can easily set up on Amoonguss and Sucker Punch Kangaskhan.
- Terrible bulk in base form, and still only mediocre in Mega Form.
- Mediocre BP STABs.
- Easily checked by common priority and the omnipresent Tyranitar (public enemy #1).

Special Attacker
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name: Special Attacker
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Protect
move 4: HP Ice/ Will-o-Wisp/ Disable
ability: Levitate
item: Gengarite
evs: 4 HP/ 252 SAtk/ 252 Spd
nature: Timid

Moves
========
- Shadow Ball provides great neutral STAB, hits Aegislash very hard.
- Sludge Bomb covers Fairy types as well as a stronger neutral STAB.
- Protect lets a teammate eliminate a possible check while preserving health, a VGC staple.
- HP Ice always OHKOs Salamence, Garchomp and Gliscor. Deals heavy damage to the occasional Dragonite.
- Will-o-Wisp is always useful in VGC 14 while Disable can cripple attackers with only one effective move on Gengar after a Protect, similar to SubDisable in OU.

Set Details
========
- EV spread and nature maximize offensive potential.
-Gengarite trades the immunity to Earthquake for better overall bulk and power and allows a speed tie with Aerodactyl, also allows the OHKO on Garchomp with HP Ice. And of course the almighty Shadow Tag, one of Gengar’s few redeeming qualities in the format and the main reason you want to use it.

Usage Tips
========
- Easy to bring in on its 3 immunities, including one to the common Earthquake.
- Best used to snipe slower but offensively oriented threats without priority like Garchomp and Gardevoir.
- Protect is completely expected on Gengar, use that to your advantage when predicting.
- Use your non-attacking 4th slot option or Hidden Power with care and consider common users of Protect to prevent unnecessarily revealing it.

Team Options
========
- Great offensive synergy with Garchomp, and can kill Fairies for Salamence as well.
- Conkeldurr keeps Tyranitar, Greninja and Scrafty at bay for Gengar.
- Users of Quick Guard like Talonflame and Scrafty make for good support to prevent priority from wrecking Gengar.
-Talonflame can also provide Tailwind support and KO opposing priority users before they touch Gengar.

OTHER OPTIONS:
- Life Orb in case you already have another Mega to still KO Garchomp with one HP Ice.
- Destiny Bond, Hypnosis, Focus Blast, HP Fire, Dazzling Gleam.
- Perish Trapping Mega Gengar with EVs of 252 Hp/56 Def/192 Spd (NOTE: Requires full team support to work).
- Choice Scarfed or Specs Gengar .

Checks & Counters
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- Tyranitar sponges pretty much all blows and KOs with Dark STAB.
- Scizor is bulky enough to take a hit and does heavy damage to Gengar with its priority Bullet Punch.
- Scrafty can tank a hit and KO with Crunch.
- Most strong priority users and Scarfers can deal heavy damage to Gengar before it even moves.
- Before Mega-evolving, Scrappy Kangakhan can flinch Gengar with Fake Out or just pound it with a Return straight up.
- Trick Room.
- Bulletproof Chesnaught walls sets without HP Ice/Fire or Gleam.
- The common Earthquake deals massive damage to Mega Gengar.
- Greninja is faster than base Gengar and can OHKO with Dark Pulse. Mega-Manectric and Aerodactyl fall into this boat as well.
- Sableye and other good users of Taunt break the Perish Song set.
- Though rare, Goodra sponges just about any hit and smacks it hard in return with Dragon STAB.

 

[Lord Wallace]

TheMantyke
lucariojr
Biosci
R Inanimate
Pwnemon
Audiosurfer
Laurel


EDIT: Disregard the calcs for now I forgot to set it to level 50 -_- fml. I'll fix it when I get home. Damn, probably have to adjust EVs too.

EDIT: Calcs/EVs fixed. Chenvosky 's changes made.

 

[Mymble]

I know I'm not QC, but just my two cents.

- Low BP STABs.

Shadow Ball is base 80 and Sludge Bomb is base 90, and although neither is particularly high nor are they particularly low.

- Users of Mat Block like Talonflame make for good support to prevent priority from wrecking Gengar.

Just a typo, you mean Quick Guard. Might be worth mentioning bulkier Quick Guard users like Scrafty, because Talonflame and Gengar are both very frail and dealt with by Tyranitar.

Also no mention of Chestnaught in checks and counters, it is immune to Gengars dual STAB although can't hit back for super effective Seed Bomb or Wood Hammer both do a fair amount of damage to Gengar as it is so frail.

I'd also mention Dazzling Gleam in other options as it can be run over Hidden Power Ice.

 

[R Inanimate]

Taking a look over it:

-Perhaps you are forgetting that Hidden Power's strength is now 60 power. While it will get an OHKO on Noivern and Salamence, Garchomp will usually survive HP Ice from regular Gengar. (Mega Gengar can OHKO it with ease though)

-Not the biggest fan of trying to use Destiny Bond, though I do know that it can work. It's just that you either end up in a situation where you don't have a chance to use it because the opponent is faster, you end up in situations where you're better off just attacking or doing something else. Moves like Disable and WoW tend to have better utility for non-Mega Gengar's 4th slot.

-Do note that Perish Trap Gengar is NOT something that you can easily just slap onto a team and have it work. Even with Defensive EVs, Mega Gengar can be pretty easily downed in 2 hits, sometimes OHKO'd if you aren't careful. If you don't have your full team support in on the Perish Trap strategy, you will either be unable to sustain the trap, or take way too much damage for the trade to be worth it. And if you are having Perish Song just to finish off their last two mons, then any Perish Song user could do, really, and it doesn't really take advantage of Shadow Tag.

-Also need to make note that Ghost-Types are unable to be trapped, so if you are trying Perish Song, you need to watch out for Pokemon like Chandelure, Aegislash, other Gengar, and Gourgeist. Similarly, Pokemon that may run Volt Switch or U-Turn are problematic.

-Although usage of Heal Pulse to support is sound in theory, you'll often find that it is extremely difficult to find time to use it in practice. I'd scratch it off the list.

-Minor things: Skarmory isn't really used in Doubles. Neither is Pursuit Scizor. They can pretty much be written off the article. Also, I think you meant "Follow Me", not "Me First"

 

[Lord Wallace]

Taking a look over it:

-Perhaps you are forgetting that Hidden Power's strength is now 60 power. While it will get an OHKO on Noivern and Salamence, Garchomp will usually survive HP Ice from regular Gengar. (Mega Gengar can OHKO it with ease though)

-Not the biggest fan of trying to use Destiny Bond, though I do know that it can work. It's just that you either end up in a situation where you don't have a chance to use it because the opponent is faster, you end up in situations where you're better off just attacking or doing something else. Moves like Disable and WoW tend to have better utility for non-Mega Gengar's 4th slot.

-Do note that Perish Trap Gengar is NOT something that you can easily just slap onto a team and have it work. Even with Defensive EVs, Mega Gengar can be pretty easily downed in 2 hits, sometimes OHKO'd if you aren't careful. If you don't have your full team support in on the Perish Trap strategy, you will either be unable to sustain the trap, or take way too much damage for the trade to be worth it. And if you are having Perish Song just to finish off their last two mons, then any Perish Song user could do, really, and it doesn't really take advantage of Shadow Tag.

-Also need to make note that Ghost-Types are unable to be trapped, so if you are trying Perish Song, you need to watch out for Pokemon like Chandelure, Aegislash, other Gengar, and Gourgeist. Similarly, Pokemon that may run Volt Switch or U-Turn are problematic.

-Although usage of Heal Pulse to support is sound in theory, you'll often find that it is extremely difficult to find time to use it in practice. I'd scratch it off the list.

-Minor things: Skarmory isn't really used in Doubles. Neither is Pursuit Scizor. They can pretty much be written off the article. Also, I think you meant "Follow Me", not "Me First"

Noted. And yeah I meant Follow me. I was also a bit irresponsible in not specifying that Perish Song Mega Gar needs full team support (Heal Pulse Gardevoir has actually worked alright for me, but yeah it wasn't amazing). As well as forgetting the new Shadow Tag mechanics and then listing Gourgeist and Skarmory (not used as you mentioned) as Pokemon it could be effective against. Due to the more bulky offensive nature of Doubles anyway and the general lack of more than a few true walls like Skarmory to trap I'm just gonna move that entire set to OO and make Gengarite a slash on the MysticGar set (really the only viable one by itself imo I just really liked the Perish Song gimmick). Thanks for the feedback.
Also my bad about Pursuit Scizor lol I know its ass in Doubles. I just havent run into many Scizor in general actually and I mindlessly associated it with Pursuit as it is commonly run in OU. Its mention has been removed.

Edit: Fixed R Inanimate

 

[Mymble]

You should mention it has three immunities before Mega-evolving as being weak to ground is quite a big deal in a meta-game where the most common Pokemon is garchomp.

 

[Lord Wallace]

You should mention it has three immunities before Mega-evolving as being weak to ground is quite a big deal in a meta-game where the most common Pokemon is garchomp.

This is mentioned under Checks and Counters

 

[Biosci]

Please get rid of all that spacing in this, it really makes an analysis obnoxious to read for us QCers. R Inanimate touched on most of everything, so just fix the spacing and I'll give this another look/QC check it.

 

[Martin]

Sludge Wave is so much better than Sludge Bomb as it is a spread move which is actually stronger if you get to a 1v1 point in the match. I'd change that.
Also the perish trapping set is pretty damn powerful if used first turn as you can take out the entire opposing team by protect stalling. I would personally make it a main set (but below the special attacker set). What is QCs thoughts on that point?

 

[Lord Wallace]

Sludge Wave is so much better than Sludge Bomb as it is a spread move which is actually stronger if you get to a 1v1 point in the match. I'd change that.
Also the perish trapping set is pretty damn powerful if used first turn as you can take out the entire opposing team by protect stalling. I would personally make it a main set (but below the special attacker set). What is QCs thoughts on that point?

I'm pretty sure Sludge Wave is illegal in VGC 14 as it is a DW move on Ghastly and cannot be bred onto a Kalos born one. Also I decided to move Perish Song to OO for the reasons R Animate pointed out in his comment.

 

[Martin]

I'm pretty sure Sludge Wave is illegal in VGC 14 as it is a DW move on Ghastly and cannot be bred onto a Kalos born one. Also I decided to move Perish Song to OO for the reasons R Animate pointed out in his comment.

there is a TM for Sludge Wave this gen
edit: oops. my ignorance it cant use the TM. My bad.

 

[Lord Wallace]

Don't ignore me!

Haha seriously though I want to get to get this written up already so I can do my Sableye analysis.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Don't ignore me!

Haha seriously though I want to get to get this written up already so I can do my Sableye analysis.

remove focus sash and the mentions of it, if you're not using mega gengar you probably shouldn't be using it. and just name it Special Attacker, nothing particularly unique about the set to justif giving it a special name. and fix slash spacing for the set. otherwise looks solid.
QC 1/2

 

[Lord Wallace]

Changes made.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Also just realized, "Gengarite trades the immunity to Earthquake for better overall bulk and power and allows a speed tie with Aerodactyl, also allows the OHKO on Garchomp with HP Ice. Shadow Tag is pretty neat as well." Shadow Tag is the main reason to use Mega Gengar, just wanted to make that clear. Everything else is just icing (Aerodactyl speed tie is barely even that). The way that's phrased makes it seem like you think Shadow Tag isn't too significant, when in reality it's the majority of what makes Mega Gengar worth using at all.

 

[Laurel]

To be honest, this is not good... Offensive Mega Gengar should only be mentioned in in other mentions... it lacks the offensive power to kill many threats even with super effective moves.

The sets that should be used are Perish Trap Mega Gengar with Perish Song, Protect, Substitute, and Shadow Ball/Disable, and regular Sash Gengar with Protect, Shadow Ball, WoW, Taunt... Sub>Protect with Black Sludge is possible, Disable>Taunt, or Sludge Bomb over Taunt.

Going to reject this sorry x.x

QC Rejected: 1/2

 

[Lord Wallace]

Taking a look over it:

-Do note that Perish Trap Gengar is NOT something that you can easily just slap onto a team and have it work. Even with Defensive EVs, Mega Gengar can be pretty easily downed in 2 hits, sometimes OHKO'd if you aren't careful. If you don't have your full team support in on the Perish Trap strategy, you will either be unable to sustain the trap, or take way too much damage for the trade to be worth it. And if you are having Perish Song just to finish off their last two mons, then any Perish Song user could do, really, and it doesn't really take advantage of Shadow Tag.

remove focus sash and the mentions of it, if you're not using mega gengar you probably shouldn't be using it. and just name it Special Attacker, nothing particularly unique about the set to justif giving it a special name. and fix slash spacing for the set. otherwise looks solid.
QC 1/2

To be honest, this is not good... Offensive Mega Gengar should only be mentioned in in other mentions... it lacks the offensive power to kill many threats even with super effective moves.

The sets that should be used are Perish Trap Mega Gengar with Perish Song, Protect, Substitute, and Shadow Ball/Disable, and regular Sash Gengar with Protect, Shadow Ball, WoW, Taunt... Sub>Protect with Black Sludge is possible, Disable>Taunt, or Sludge Bomb over Taunt.

The contradictions between different QC members is too stronk

In fact, I actually did have Perish Trap and Focus Sash Gar as main sets long before your check Laurel

Maybe lets just conclude that Gengar is dick in VGC and I shouldn't have put off Sableye for this.

 

[Laurel]

yeah... just do sableye audio is wrong here (sorry audio) its probably different in smogon doubles x:

kingofmars (last yr national champ) actually said sash was the best set and black sludge + sub is bad so ..

 

[Audiosurfer]

yeah... just do sableye audio is wrong here (sorry audio) its probably different in smogon doubles x:

kingofmars (last yr national champ) actually said sash was the best set and black sludge + sub is bad so ..

Oh it's no problem, yeah it's completely different in smogon doubles lol. Just do what laurel said Darkerones

 

[Laurel]

just fix it and do what i said and ill give u a 2nd acceptance check perish trap set and sash set

 

[Lord Wallace]

Very well then, I'll re-add those sets and polish this up after I finish my stuff on The Smog, thanks guys

 

[Martin]

When ur redoing the Perish Trap set, make sure to add pokemon which can redirect moves into team options. I faced a very good perish trap team that revolved around Mega Gengar and Follow Me Smeargle at UK nationals and he did very well (can't remember if top cut, but if not he came very close)

 

[P3DS]

When ur redoing the Perish Trap set, make sure to add pokemon which can redirect moves into team options. I faced a very good perish trap team that revolved around Mega Gengar and Follow Me Smeargle at UK nationals and he did very well (can't remember if top cut, but if not he came very close)

I played my perish team at UK nationals, and got top 32 with it. Raichu is a great support pokemon for perish trap, as it has a very fast fake out, volt switch (so you don't have to have 2 trappers) and encore, to punish set up and protect. It could also run the dreaded encore + disable combo with gengar, and trap them in, so it was able to do 2 things at once. Liepard does a similar role, but you need to either make room for u-turn or have 2 trappers for perish trapping

 

[Laurel]

Going to take this over because I finished Greninja, and it hasn't been touched in months.