Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[T-Bolt]

^wait, I don't get it, are you saying that you want Mega-Gengar to faint to a priority attack, so that your opponent doesn't setup? Seems like a waste of a Mega slot using Mega-Gengar for that purpose.

 

[sidakarya]

One more thing I'd like to add to this topic. Everyone, direct your attention to Gothitelle's 5th Gen Analysis. More specifically, look at the Checks and Counters section.

Yes, it's last gen. However, it does put in some very good points relating to Shadow Tag. In terms of Gothitelle, Shadow Tag allowed it to revenge decently well. I say "decently," because as noted in the analysis, Gothitelle has pretty mediocre stats, and won't be powering through everything, relying on whatever it's trying to take out to be either weakened or unable to deal a lot of damage to Gothitelle.

MGengar has much, much better stats and a better movepool. Now consider the discussion about Gothitelle's Checks and Counters, and put it in relation to MGengar. Basically, imagine that Gothitelle suddenly got better stats, movepool and typing. Now, what were the weaknesses again?

Indeed. In fact, if you apply this to M-Gengar, all of the negative points just vanish into the air.

Nonetheless, Gothitelle's weakness to U-turn is hard to ignore.

Funny story about U-Turn, incidentally.

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 57-67 (21.8 - 25.6%)

That's not even enough to break a Substitute all the time. No, a Scizor faced in front of a Gengar must beat it face-to-face, at which point it's hurling Shadow Balls for a quick 2HKO. Granted, a Rotom-W could possibly escape with Volt Switch and break a Substitute, but it's still taking heavy damage as it does.

Gothitelle has a hard time powering through threats without appropriate coverage moves or Special Attack boosts. For instance, without Hidden Power Fighting, he generally struggles against Heatran and Dark-types, especially Tyranitar and Hydreigon. Without Hidden Power Fire, he can't KO Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory without being damaged, statused, or phazed out in the process. Among most special walls, Latias and Celebi can also take most attacks comfortably save Signal Beam or, in Celebi's case, a boosted Hidden Power Fire. Other walls can also be crippled by obtaining a Choice item via Trick. Generally speaking, Gothitelle's lack of good resistances and recovery make him easy to batter around with entry hazards and attacks. Gothitelle can be taken down with continual pressure, and because he is played as a support Pokemon, players often do not need to pack dedicated checks and counters to fend him off.

All of these are things, a M-Gengar can potentially trap and kill. M-Gengar certainly doesn't have trouble powering through threats at all!

• Heatran, Tyranitar, and Hydreigon: They all eat SE Focus Blasts, possibly while Gengar's Substitute is intact.
  
• Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory: All are 2HKO'd at worst by Shadow Balls and/or Focus Blasts behind Substitutes. As mentioned before, a Scizor's Bullet Punch cannot OHKO.
  
• Latias and Celebi: RIP in pieces

Note also, that Tyranitar and Scizor are two of the most common switch-ins to Gengar in the initial turn before mega-evolution.

Ghost/Poison is a far better defensive typing than Psychic, despite M-Gengar's loss of a Ground immunity, as this list shows. (For those that can't read German, the higher ones are better defensive types. Note how far higher up Gengar is than Alakazam.) This allows for many switch-in opportunities that will leave Gengar unscathed (which was always Gengar's strength, but made even more pregnant here). That 170 SAtk and 130 Spe is not easily surpassed, and as said before, not even many priority attacks cannot OHKO. Gengar is likely putting far more offensive pressure on the opponent than vice-versa.

Note that this isn't even getting into the support options, most of which were mentioned in great detail earlier in this thread. Take a look at Gothitelle again and count how many support options it has in its sets; the analysis even notes, how limited in support options Gothitelle is. Gengar is the exact opposite of this.

 

[X5Dragon]

Also about Keldeo, guess what, Keldeo didnt make it so you couldnt switch. I assure you if it did he would have been banned, but thats besides the point. out of all of those matchups i posted, theres an immense amount of: Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Sludge Wave. If you wanna remove the mons that lose to the perish song set, do it, you still get a number like 65 / 99 mons fucked by these 4 moves. All perish song set and destiny bond and what not do is give Gengar EVEN MORE options to fuck shit up.

I wasn't saying Gengar is similar to Keldeo, just the arguments but if it makes it any better here's a repost:

"Gengar has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter.

done, since you decided to cry about it, i editted them out.
now you can post the list, we really want to see what youve got to say about other megas and how they can do more than mega gengar.
your turn

Trust me, if a moderator didn't go ahead and edit your posts for clear insults then all is left is for other users to insult your intelligence and mock you, you did yourself a favor, not me. As you wish, here's a another Mega evolution, Kangaskhan and the pokemon he destroys. As you posted no calcs and never highlighted the situations where SR or a hit on the switch is required (2HKOs), I'm just gonna plain and list them without detailed calcs. As you can see, these are all without boosts as with a single +1 boost if we assume a Ghost switch in and the user doesn't Megaevolve immediately, this list will expand considerably:

Hide

Abombasnow
Absol
Aegislash
Aggron
Alakazam
Amoongus
Ampharos
Blissey
Breloom
Blastoise
Bronzong
Celebi
Chandulure
Charizard
Clefable
Crobat
Cloyster
Diggersby
Dragonite
Empoleon
Excadrill
Forretress
Garchomp
Genesect
Gengar
Return
Gyradous
Heatran
(Mixed and Physical) Hippodon
Kingdra
Landrous-T
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Tyranitar
Venasaur
Ninetales
Gourgiest
Trevennant
Quagsire
Rotom-W
Slobro
Starmie
Sylveon
Tentacruel
Togekiss
Tornadus
Vaperoen
Volcarona
Zapdos
Latios
Espeon
Dugtrio
Azumarill
Aurorus
Aromatisse
Reuniclus

As said, this isn't a thread to talk about other Megaevolutions but don't assume that Gengar is unique in terms of coverage and sweeping capabilities. Seeing how the council has basically made up it's mind, members clearly voting in favor for quickban in the poll and a member describing an entire side of posting nothing worthy I'm just gonna stop at Zrakcnels post (which summarizes the side's points eloquently) and call it a day.

 

[dende5416]

I was originally on the no side and have switched to the yes side. Why? because it has become clear to me that Mega-Gengar dominates the way a team must be built, if it is to be successful, on the higher levels of game-play. Once something is considered to dominate team planning, its usually been banned during the last few generations and to me, Mega-Gengar has clearly gotten there.

Edit by Haunter: this is not the place nor the time.

 

[Chazman]

the biggest problem with most of the no ban comments is that they are simply saying that it is easily counterable under very specific situaitions. here are the problems with that:

1) shadow tag. you cannot counter a pokemon with shadow tag. countering requires you to be able to switch in your answer to the current threat. because of shadow tag, unless your MGengar switches in against a ghost, which will never happen, or the foe has one of four moves that get around shadow tag, the trapped pokemon cannot switch into your answer, meaning it's a check not a counter.

2) his incredible move spread. MGengar has access to one of the most versatile move lists in the game. with access to over 30 attack moves, which give it coverage against all but 4 or 5 types, and a support selection that makes most support pokemon cry, he is the most versatile pokemon outside of things like mew. when combined with shadow tag, this versatility allows him to kill whatever he wants whenever he wants, with very little difficulty.

to be continued due to phone bugging out.

continued:

3) situational theorizing. most of the answers to him are based on MGengar being forced into unfavorable situations. if you are going to start following that logic, and yes i am aware that this is getting off topic a bit, then nothing should be bannished to uber. after all, every pokemon is theoretically beatable under the right conditions. the thing is, once you take its typing and ability into account, you realize that he cant be forced in to those situations. yes, T-tar can kill it fairly easily. however, the instant T-tar, or any of the other supposed answers comes out, MGengar leaves, which the foe cant do for another turn thanks to shadow tag.

4) mindset of role. most of the arguments against his banning are based around him being built like a sweeper. he isnt one. regular gengar can be built like one, and actually is fairly good at being one, but MGengar isnt designed around sweeping. its a specialist of sniper. its purpose is to take out the one or two things that wall your sweepers, and thats it.

honestly, at this point we are just bashing our heads against a wall. everything has been said a dozen times over, and nothing we say will make a difference to those who cant understand our logic.

 

[Ash Borer]

Unfortunately I have only played two styles in the current pokebank and OU metas, and either were A more defensively inclined team with a pursuit trapper for gengar, or offensive teams with focus on priority, not defense to check sweepers. Neither of these playstyles are weak to mega gengar, because, a good pursuit trapper will most likely be able to stop gengar from being able to rack up its trapping kills that plow the way for a sweep, what which is purported to be its strongest roles. Pursuit trappers can either outright beat mega gengar, or, are able to shave enough health off of gar to leave it unable to trap and kill much anything later in the match, sometimes leaving it in hazard kill range. These pursuit trappers can be but are not limited to assault vest tyranitar, and assault best scizor. Although neither are guaranteed to beat gengar one on one, both can beat certain sets, force over prediction, and win on probability (yes, mega gengar can 2hKo assault vest t-tar, but the probability of landing 2 focus blasts is ~50%, therefore half the time I am able to disable gengar, facing this set, and thus very seldomly do I find myself in a situation where 2 focus blasts landing has lost me a game).

Priority stacking teams tend to not care so much about mega gengar because most of their pokemon can face it one on one, and secondly, set up sweepers are generally checked by the whole team, and not just countered by one pokemon. It's worth mentioning that offensive teams are generally volt turn heavy, thus, leaving an option to "play around" mega gengar, denying it opportunities to find free kills on choiced locked mons, and such.

Because of this, gengar has caused me less than incredible amounts of trouble, and thus by experience I would not support a ban. I think it's worth mentioning that in my experience I found that blaziken and deoxys-N to be entirely overwhelming, I don't feel my perception is always off.

Now, despite this I have trouble refuting the argument that mega gengar facilitates hyper offense, in that, it can easily dismantle the keystone of the arch that is a defensive team, leaving that team wide open for a sweep. NO other pokemon is capable of this, dugtrio, magnezone, and gothitelle have such little abiltiy compared to mege gengar's movepool, stats, typing and number of mons it can trap, thus they aren't exactly comparable. Not only is it that pursuit trappers, who can be beat, are the only real defense agaisnt mega gengar, switching in on the evolution turn, but, mega gengar still has superior offense and utility to most trappers, thus it can still floor anything weak to its STAB and especially weak to a coverage move, thus, a beat pursuit trapper might not necessarily neuter gengar. Destiny bond sets thrive on low health even. Mega gengar on paper completely throws a wrench into a well oiled stalling machine of a team, like no other pokemon. However, I will pose questions. Firstly, is it fair to say that it is impossible to build fucntional defensive cores/stall using pursuit trappers to combat mega gengar's ability to dismantle these defenses. SEcondly, is it fair to try and make an argument that the erosion of a defensive tactics to defeat sweepers and such is not a bad thing, and a metagame shift to something more offensive where gengar isnt necessarily broken a bad thing? Is mega gengar broken in an offensive meta?

If anyone has replays of mega gengar dismantling stall/defense, thriving in an offensive environment and such I'd like to analyze these replays.

 

[Tressed]

Gengar has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter.

Nitpick, but it isn't safe to play otherwise until Gengar reveals what it has. If you assume that Gengar has Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Destiny Bond, that's great if it works, but the only way you'll find out if it has Taunt is when it ends up in on Blissey, but its too late then, the damage has already been done, and your Blissey is pretty much toast. Also, still worth noting that Gengar is going to go after those weak pokemon that can't fight back, so saying that all the calcs and such are unfair is completely true, but also irrelevant given that Gengar doesn't care at all.

 

[Hydro Pimp]

I wasn't saying Gengar is similar to Keldeo, just the arguments but if it makes it any better here's a repost:

"Gengar has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter.

X5, I agree that during the Keldeo suspect test it was a little ridiculous that pro-banners always gave Keldeo the right item, Hidden Power, and prediction. With Mega Gengar it is a different story though. Its item is Gengarite, so there's no assumption of the right item. And whatever it's up against CAN'T SWITCH, so it's not an assumption that the opponent has nothing to switch to, it's a fact. As for moves, if you look at each of Mega Gengar's sets individually instead of collectively, you'll see that each one still still snipes (or perish stalls, if that's the set you're looking at) a lot of things, so we still have a Pokemon that is generally going to trap and kill at least one Pokemon (usually more), regardless of what (good) set it's running. Also, the Mega Gengar user will choose his or her set based on what his team needs eliminated.

Finally, as for priority, status and abilities that stop Mega Gengar, these are fairly irrelevant unless you have them on your whole team, in which case your team would probably be reaaaaally weak to other threats and just generally restricted and not very good. Yes, there are Pokemon that beat Mega Gengar using various methods. Not the point. Mega Gengar just switches out of these Pokemon, but the Pokemon it beats can't switch out of it.

The Keldeo user in that suspect test needed prediction. A Mega Gengar user does not. That is the big difference really. I was very anti-ban on Keldeo, but I can tell you that if it had Shadow Tag (even if it took a turn to get it and lost its item like Mega Gengar) I would have voted ban in a second.

 

[perplexingpool]

One issue, in my opinion, with Megagar, is the way he renders Baton Pass unviable. You can't run Baton Pass in Pokebank without being absolutely murdered in 20% of your games by Perish Song.

 

[Chazman]

Finally, as for priority, status and abilities that stop Mega Gengar, these are fairly irrelevant unless you have them on your whole team, in which case your team would probably be reaaaaally weak to other threats and just generally restricted and not very good. Yes, there are Pokemon that beat Mega Gengar using various methods. Not the point. Mega Gengar just switches out of these Pokemon, but the Pokemon it beats can't switch out of it.

This right here is one of the main reasons, and something i missed in my post. MGengar, when played right, forces over-specialization and controls your opponents playing style. due to the sheer number of pokemon it can counter, and the small number of checks it has, it forces players to have to build their team from the ground up around beating him. he doesnt even have to ever enter play. just the fact that he is on the team, waiting to snipe that one key pokemon impacts play styles as it prevents you from using members of your team. need to get that wall out to shut down the sweeper? oh wait, you cant as hencan simply swap to MGengar and kill it.

One issue, in my opinion, with Megagar, is the way he renders Baton Pass unviable. You can't run Baton Pass in Pokebank without being absolutely murdered in 20% of your games by Perish Song.

thats not even an issue until pokebank comes out, which you did mention. granted it did play a big role in the early discussions, but he doesnt even need perish song to shut down so many things.

alexwolf EDIT: Don't double post

 

[reyscarface]

As I've said countless times before, think about which pokemon would be your opponent interested in taking out to plow a hole and open a sweep. Then after Gengar has Megavolved and switched out the first time, predict when MGar will come in and double switch to keep it at bay while you neuter your real check. With any kind of hazards or sticky web it will finally take care of either of them. Not mentioning that every time the Scarfed ghost counter switches in to take out MGar, it takes damage.

Actually, in some situations I can understand what you explained being good for the metagame. Why? Because im one of those guys that think Dugtrio / Maggy in ADV is great and a very important part of the metagame that adds a ton of skill. Here lets do a little backstory:

Dugtrio / Mag are Pokemon that offer a shitton of utility in ADV. Specifically on Dugtrio, you never, ever, bring Dugtrio in as a switch unless its a ~predicted~ double switch from you. Because hes frail as shit, duh, everything would kill it. This presence in ADV is good from my point of view because it causes people to think. You cant just leave your Skarmory in throwing spikes all the time because theres the chance of a Magneton coming in and fucking you up. You cant kill something with Raikou for shits and giggles because Dugtrio comes in and shits on you. You have to think. You have to think about if the move youre about to do is worth the risk of losing the mon entirely to Dugtrio or Mag.

This is literally what you just described up there. The difference are three:

1) In ADV this offensive presence is needed. Defensive teams are very damn strong in ADV due to the lack of nuts offensive options like the ones in BW / XY. Magneton and Dugtrio offer a way for offensive teams to deal with defensive teams if they require so. On the same vein, its good in order to keep the flow of an offensive game going. This amount of offensive presence to the degree of Mega Gengar is NOT NEEDED.

2) The important one. Look at what those 2 mons can trap. Between 2 mons, they can trap a total of around 4~ (Forry, Skarmory, Metagross ONLY IF LOW, and Steelix if theres HP Fire) and 7 with one repeat (Tyranitar, Raikou, Heracross, Blissey, Celebi ONLY IF WEAKENED, Jirachi, Metagross ONLY IF WEAKENED). Thats 10 mons. 10 mons that a combo of TWO can take out, and there needs to be previous damage on 4 of them. Compare this with Mega Gengar who can take on OVER 70 POKEMON BY ITSELF.

3) Trace and revenge trapping exists in ADV. Porygon 2 can deal with non Substitute Magneton and any Dugtrio all of the time. This doesnt work at all for Gengar, as he cant be trapped back and Pursuit users risk taking a Destiny Bond to the face (or OHKOd by Focus Blast in case of Ttar).


Lets go back to you, yes, what you said is something we theoretically should consider. Notice the choice of words. Theoretically should. But we wont. Its not happening. The situation you just described THE single most unhealthy metagame ive ever seen described. Lets exemplify it.

I send out Ferrothorn, opponent sends out Volcarona. Well shit, I have to switch out, I dont wanna lose Ferrothorn! I go to Blissey / Heatran / Terrakion. Three mons that can take on the Volcarona at +1. Now, this is a normal battle scenario in which the player is trading a free turn for Volcarona in order to be able to take it on the turn after, either netting himself a KO or a free turn for himself. This is standard battle procedure. Its what is supposed to happen.

This all changes because of Mega Gengar. Now im fucked. Any move I make here is a checkmate position for my opponent. Why? Because if I were to stay in in order to get something like, say, Scarf Landorus in, who cant switch in, but will take it on even at +1, id have to sacrifice Ferrothorn. Thats not an option for me, so my only other move would be bringing my Volcarona counter. Any of those 3 mons above. Now thats not an option either.

I bring in any of the 3 as Volcarona dances / uses anything. Now I have an option. I can take down Volcarona. Except if my opponent has some death fodder, he will sacrifice that, bring Mega Gengar in, and suddenly my Volcarona counter is gone. Now Volcarona instantly wins the moment it comes in because I have no way to stop it. The only move I can do in order to *STAND A CHANCE IN THIS GAME* would be to double switch when Volcarona is out, PREDICTING THE GENGAR SWITCH IN, in order to be able to take it down before it fucks me up. This sounds all nice and fun until you realize that youll have to do this with 70 pokemon. So if my team has 3 of the mons that Gengar can trap and kill, I have to consider double switching every single time theyre out in order to not lose them and be potentially swept. And this all comes with its drawbacks of course, as if my opponent doesnt switch out I just lost a shitton of momentum or in the worst case a full mon. This becomes even worse when you UNDERSTAND that any good player (WHICH THERE ARE LIKE NONE OF ON THE LADDER SRSLY STOP THINKING BECAUSE xxxHaxMaster420xxZ SUCKS AT GENGAR EVERYONE WILL) will never, ever, switch to Gengar giving you a free move on it. Never. Thats not gonna happen. Stick it out of your head. They will sac something and bring Gengar in, now youre truly fucked.

There is 0 counterplay to this. If you want to compare Mgar to someone, compare it with DEOXYS, not with Salamence or whatever sweeper you want. Deoxys in Gen 4 was a monster. You wouldnt switch it in unless you were 100% certain it would not get fucked in the process (for example, on something locked on a psychic move while the opponent has no good 1v1 mons for Deoxys so the chance of double switch is gone), YOU REVENGE KILLED WITH IT. Deoxys would come in after something in your team died, and instantly pose a huge threat to the opponent's team. FOR A DIFFERENT REASON THAN GENGAR TOO.

In gen 4, Deoxys had the ability to revenge kill almost anything in the game, and if you switched out, Deoxys would be able to 2HKO a large part of the metagame too. So you were left stranded wether you prefered losing the mon you had out, or potentially losing the mon you brought in.

MEGA GENGAR DOESNT EVEN GIVE YOU THAT CHOICE, FRIENDS. Mega Gengar will, like Deoxys, come in after a mon has died, AND KILL the mon thats out. Who gives a bleeding fuck if you have your super donger leet set of Mega Blastoise with Dark Pulse to take on Mega Gengar. YOU WONT GET TO BRING IT IN BEFORE GENGAR KILLS SOMETHING. That is fucking huge. Mega Gengar has no counter because you dont get the fucking chance to bring the counter in. The accepted definition of counter is something that can switch in with impunity to another mon and instantly threaten it. SWITCH.IN. So can you please fucking tell me, how in the hell do you counter something that doesnt let you do the DEFINING PART OF A COUNTER. You dont. You cant.

I wasn't saying Gengar is similar to Keldeo, just the arguments but if it makes it any better here's a repost:

"Gengar has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter.

Except you ignored the part when I posted a specific set that I used for my list, with the exception of like 3 mons. So learn to read holy shit.

Also your Kangaskhan list is a joke. I purposely set you up on that one, because never will you be able to make a list like the one I made for Mega Gengar simply because theres nothing like Mega Gengar in terms of Shadow Tag + Power + Moveset. The list I made works for a simple reason, you dont get to switch out. With Kangaskhan, Garchomp, Heracross, Ampharos, Charizard, whatever the fuck you want, theres the chance of a switch so a list like that is pointless. Kangaskhan might beat those mons 1 on 1 but the opponent can simply bring in another one. This means you have to predict, risk vs reward, yada yada. With Mega Gengar this doesnt exist, Mega Gengar comes in, youre fucked, you lost a mon. Get this inside your skull already.

Unfortunately I have only played two styles in the current pokebank and OU metas, and either were A more defensively inclined team with a pursuit trapper for gengar, or offensive teams with focus on priority, not defense to check sweepers.

I can also say Mega Gengar is weak if I use a team full of shit that cant be trapped. But guess what, that means you cant use 70 mons in that list. Also did you know no priority move but Sucker Punches can OHKO him? So im glad your Azumarill weakened my Mega Gengar in exchange of its life, now my Talonflame or w/e can sweep with impunity. I chose Azumarill out of all the mons in your team to kill with Mega Gengar, and I set up a sweep accordingly. On the same vein if I was doing a say, DD Tyranitar sweep, id trap and Destiny Bond the Scizor. Or if I wanted a Dragon sweep, id trap your Mamoswine. I get to pick what im going to sweep you with and theres nothing you can do about it but never bringing the mon in question in, lest it risks being killed by Mega Gengar after I sac something.


Btw I made this for you people, cuz im nice

if u could all memorize this until u live to preach these sentences thatd be great

 

[The Leprechaun]

I think the biggest reason for the quickban of Mega-Gengar is the fact that it renders defensive teams (especially full stall) completely unviable. I've been pairing it with banded Scizor and it puts teams who rely on their walls in impossible situations. Say someone's defensive core is skarmbliss, if i bring my scizor in on the blissey i'm in a win/win situation after using u-turn. If he stays in, the bliss will take a huge chunk of damage from the u-turn, if he switches to his swarm to check the scizor that dies as well to the megagar. Obviously this is unlikely situation but the concept remains the same against any team lacking a physically defensive ghost type.

Once perish song gets released, the problem becomes far worse, allowing you to ohko all defensive threats, regardless of which side they can take hits from. If you don't think it's broken in its current state i can understand that side of the argument but once it perish song becomes available, i can't imagine any argument that will keep, at least that combination of moves, banned.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Switch out of Mega Blastoise. Why are you even staying in.

Have something that can beat DD Dragonite, it's not that hard. And you're not staying in on Dragonite anyways.

Specs is irrelevant against Mega Gengar, and a lot of Scarfmons force it out, like Chandelure, Noivern, etc. It can't switch in until Mega Gengar kills something.

I'd like to see your Houndoom take a Focus Blast. Also I always Sub if the opponent has a Pursuiter when I Mega. Or Focus Blast to get rid of set Pursuiter.

Perish Song isn't even the best set IMO, and it's a horrible waste of MegaGar's power. It works well though.

No one in their right mind switches a Ghost into Mega Gengar, and a lot of those pivots are heavily damaged by Mega Gengar.

Baton Pass is pretty dead nowadays, and it beats VoltTurn by simply smacking the mons before they can pivot out.

I don't know what kind of opponents you've been playing against but those people should be pulled from PS and be forced to enroll in a common sense class.

And have something else eat a Dark Pulse to the face, do that every time and you'll be killing the other team in no time!

Also, Mega Gengar 2HKO's Careful 252 / 252 Assault Vest Tyranitar. Visit the Damage Calc next time.

I'm for pro ban and will probably stop posting after this unless I see more stupid stuff, but for anyone else interested in knowing why I changed my mind, refer to reyscarface's post and the concept of the ultimate utility pokemon. Also, remember that we'll probably be banning this thing anyway, so it would be a waste of time to be going through the whole process again with a whole suspect test.

 

[Chazman]

I think the biggest reason for the quickban of Mega-Gengar is the fact that it renders defensive teams (especially full stall) completely unviable. I've been pairing it with banded Scizor and it puts teams who rely on their walls in impossible situations. Say someone's defensive core is skarmbliss, if i bring my scizor in on the blissey i'm in a win/win situation after using u-turn. If he stays in, the bliss will take a huge chunk of damage from the u-turn, if he switches to his swarm to check the scizor that dies as well to the megagar. Obviously this is unlikely situation but the concept remains the same against any team lacking a physically defensive ghost type.

Once perish song gets released, the problem becomes far worse, allowing you to ohko all defensive threats, regardless of which side they can take hits from. If you don't think it's broken in its current state i can understand that side of the argument but once it perish song becomes available, i can't imagine any argument that will keep, at least that combination of moves, banned.

thats the thing. as MGengar is the only pokemon who currently has both shadow tag and perish song, or will be once pokebank opens, it will not get banned. combinations like that only get banned if multiple pokemon are able to utilize it efficiently.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

This isn't going to contribute much to the discussion, but I felt I had to reply

A simple retype, new ability, or new move can really make a big difference.

Nothing anymore is going to get a retype (poor Cresselia). What's left are new abilities and/or moves, and the Maison hasn't hinted at much, at least for now.

Exploud is just now seeing the light of day with it's new Boomburst move.

Boomburst Exploud is (much) weaker than Facade Zangoose, which has been a thing in NU since at least two gens.

That's not even counting new Mega Pokemon (Latios and Latias are confirmed to get Mega Evos) that might be lurking in the game code waiting to be unleashed when pokebank is released.

They are the only two unreleased Mega Evos in XY. At least, according to any hacker to put their hands on the game.

For all we know we could get a better shadow trapper that completely outclasses Gengar

We won't. They removed Shadow Tag from Chandelure, why do you think they'd give it to something better than Gengar? Unless there's some hidden mechanic to get new Hidden Abilities, there's nothing aside from... Darkrai...? that could get Shadow Tag and hasn't been found yet.

or some ridiculous pursuit user that makes Gengar about as useful as Dugtrio. We don't know and so we may as well wait a couple weeks to find out.

I know this was a hyperbole, but it's impossible. Gengar has ways to circumvent Tyranitar's Pursuits, arguably the strongest in the game. What else would get it and not have been found out already? Mawile? Oh wait it's slower and dies to Focus Blast.

I agree that Mega Gengar will most likely still be broken then but the problem is we just don't know.

We know. Oh, we know. Unless Game Freak will release some crazy update patch in December 27th, there will be nothing revolutionary that could nerf MegaGengar. No unavailable Ghost- or Psychic-type would be better than Gengar; no unavailable Dark-type would be better than Tyranitar at Pursuiting; no pokémon will suddenly get a move/ability that kills Gengar even when the pokémon's not on the field. The only way they could nerf MegaGengar would be removing Perish Song from its Egg movelist and delete it from any movesets upon transferring through PokéBank... but Perish Song has been an Egg move since GSC. And we're talking about Megas here. Whatever Game Freak could have done to balance this Mega, they have already.

tl;dr: We don't know 100% what will come out of PokéBank but, based on prior experience and what we already have in XY, it surely won't be much, and nothing that could suddenly stop MegaGengar.

RAGE

Good Lord, rey, you don't even know me but I love you

 

[Nachos]

Note: I was writing this while Haunter posted not too long ago. Some of the stuff in this post might be a repeat of that.

Alright, so, let's clear up the two points that a lot of people are having trouble with: why is Gengarite up for a quickban and is it worthy of a quickban based on experience from the OU and Pokebank OU ladders on Showdown?

The first point was explained by Lee beautifully, and I'll quote it again so that it isn't lost in this thread:

Can people stop advocating a suspect test on the grounds that we 'may as well' or 'just in case.' A quickban is not done solely because a Pokemon is so overwhelmingly powerful that it needs to be removed from the metagame with immediate effect.

It's done because the powers-that-be are utterly confident that a suspect test would only give the exact same result. Trust me when I say that suspect tests require an immense amount of time, effort, energy and man-hours and cause considerable disruption across the whole community.

I've actively participated in or closely followed (as a moderator) almost every suspect test that Smogon has ever organised and I can say from the reactions in this thread that the writing is most certainly on the wall; a suspect test at this stage will end in a Mega-Gengar ban. I imagine the Council, in their infinite wisdom, are similarly sure and would rather not go through the hassle of a tedious suspect test unless they absolutely have to. Don't advocate a test 'just because.'

Lee hits the nail on the head by saying that we feel Gengarite would be banned in a suspect test. We see little point in suspect testing something that will almost certainly get banned, and this right here is the core reason behind a quickban. How do we know that Mega Gengar will be obviously banned in a suspect test? Well, two reasons. Firstly, you only have to see it in the hands of a half decent player to see how effective it is. The reasons why have been brought up many times in this thread, and I'll link a couple of posts explaining them well later. Secondly, players who have qualified for multiple suspect tests in the past have expressed their opinion (in this poll and elsewhere) on Gengarite, and the majority stance has been that of a ban.

Still, why don't we wait until Suspect Round 1 to test it? Surely it's harmless, right? Well, it isn't. For me personally, Mega Gengar is almost single handedly to blame for the drop in defensive teams. Note, I'm not saying stall, but slower, defensive teams (think Hippowdon, SDef Heatran etc) that are still prone to having its team members picked off one by one by Mega Gengar via Perish Song sets, or just by being trapped when they're on low-to-middle health and being KOing with the appropriate move. Until Mega Gengar is banned, defensive teams can't develop at all in this metagame, and if they do, they'll be able to deal with Mega Gengar and little else, so we're left with half-baked defensive teams and offensive teams only. So, if we wait until the first suspect round to test this thing, we've effectively wasted an entire month or two delaying the inevitable, and in the meantime, defensive teams hasn't been allowed to develop at all. Can sometime tell me the positives here?

Now, I have yet to see any substantial arguments from the pro-OU side, with the exception of Zracknel, who's post I'll link to later. Some of the things people have been saying make me question if they actually understand the problem here, and whether they're qualified to post in this thread. Note: if the council didn't care what people thought about Gengarite, then this thread would have stayed in PR only and would not have been posted in Uncharted Territory. That does not mean people should come up with piss poor arguments to why it shouldn't be banned. An argument that goes along the lines of "well my Goodra can come in and take two Sludge Waves on the turn it mega evolves" is not a valid argument, because Gengar is switching out into something that deals with Goodra the following turn. Fast forward a few turns and Gengar will trap something, and at that point, you can't switch out into Goodra. I've seen arguments like "my Gliscor's Earthquake can OHKO". Why exactly is Mega Gengar coming in to trap something that can OHKO it? If you faced someone who did this...then they didn't know what they were doing and you played someone who doesn't know how to play the game properly. If this is your argument, then you don't understand that Gengar traps things it knows it can kill or things that are low on health.

So far, I've seen only one really good argument for it to not be quickbanned, and that's this post by Zracknel. I advise others to read what he wrote and build upon it, because he's the closest to what could be a reason to not quickban Gengarite soon.

However, what I also want to see are good counterarguments to some of the best pro-ban posts in this thread, considering they reflect some of the views of the council perfectly, and I'm going to link them here:

dragonuser's post
Fuzznip's post
ShakeItUp's post
gr8astard's post
Innocent Criminal's post
reyscarface's post

And others such as MikeDecIsHere, Halcyon., and Windsong have made good points too a few pages back.

Until good counterarguments are posted to what I linked, then I see absolutely no reason as to why Gengarite shouldn't be quickbanned.

 

[Ajwf]

You can switch out from gengar before it goes mega, then pursuit it to death.

I don't see why you'd ban MGengar if you aren't going to ban shadow tag in general.

Just did a dexsearch on pursuit in OU. The viable ones are bold.
Dugtrio, Scizor, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Metagross, Deoxys-Defense, Deoxys-Speed, Toxicroak

You could argue D-speed, but definitely not defense. I don't see any suggested sets for metagross running pursuit and I definitely don't see skarm running it. Skarm/metagross/deoxys-s also get hurt very badly by mega gengar and can't be legitimate pursuit users against him. Trio COULD... but mega gengar can't switch out anyways, hence you only do 40 base by it. Toxicroak could adjust a set to carry pursuit but generally does not.

This same argument I would use with sticky web. If you don't count really three viable pursuiters in OU as centralizing, what do you call two valid sticky web users? Even then, sticky web is not a for-sure thing. People talk about partnering mega gengar and scizor, well scizor gains defog. It wouldn't be that hard to kill smeargle/galvantula (Two general suicide leads) and then defog away what they set up. Hence, not only have you put a spot on your team for the purpose of slowing mega gar down (in this scenario), you also don't know if this works. The limited distribution of sticky web does not add to it being useful for most teams to go out of their way just on the off chance that mega gengar A.) Is on every opponent's team and B.) wouldn't have a defog support.

Also, as a little added check for Rey's picture (beautiful text, by the way)

No Ps are Gc
All C is Ps
.*. No C are Gc

EAE-1 (Celarent), valid argument. Variables defined from Ps (Pokemon that can switch in) C (counters) and Gc (Gengar counters). Just a little verification that reyscarface is correct in his own image (though second/first line had to be switched)

tl:dr, it's logic.

 

[Hydro Pimp]

No Ps are Gc
All C is Ps
.*. No Ps are Gc

EAE-1 (Celarent), valid argument. Variables defined from Ps (Pokemon that can switch in) C (counters) and Gc (Gengar counters). Just a little verification that reyscarface is correct in his own image (though second/first line had to be switched)

tl:dr, it's logic.

It's true that Mega Gengar has no counters, but the way you wrote out that logic is really flawed and circular. Your conclusion is already one of the initial terms, so of course it will be true. This means that line 2 is useless, since if line 1 is true, of course the conclusion (which is exactly the same) is true.

I'd write it more like this:

All Gc are Ps (All Mega Gengar counters are Pokemon that can switch in)
-Ps (No Pokemon can switch in)
Therefore -Gc (There are no Mega Gengar counters)


Sorry, that was just really bugging me.

 

[Legitimate Username]

I happen to believe that Gengarite is broken yet it still doesn't warrant a quickban, mostly because of how convincing Zracknel's post was.

Still, why don't we wait until Suspect Round 1 to test it? Surely it's harmless, right? Well, it isn't. For me personally, Mega Gengar is almost single handedly to blame for the drop in defensive teams. Note, I'm not saying stall, but slower, defensive teams (think Hippowdon, SDef Heatran etc) that are still prone to having its team members picked off one by one by Mega Gengar via Perish Song sets, or just by being trapped when they're on low-to-middle health and being KOing with the appropriate move. Until Mega Gengar is banned, defensive teams can't develop at all in this metagame, and if they do, they'll be able to deal with Mega Gengar and little else, so we're left with half-baked defensive teams and offensive teams only. So, if we wait until the first suspect round to test this thing, we've effectively wasted an entire month or two delaying the inevitable, and in the meantime, defensive teams hasn't been allowed to develop at all. Can sometime tell me the positives here?

I think that there's significant harm to rushing ahead, as we cannot yet be certain what the effect of banning a Mega Stone will have on the metagame. I'm aware that arguments similar to "don't ban broken threat A because it keeps broken threat B from dominating" are flawed and shouldn't be taken into consideration. But the limitation of one Mega per team means that teambuilding is arguably far more affected by banning a Mega stone than banning a Pokémon. Despite the harm to defensive teams, I think that being able to take an actual look at the consequences of such a ban in a suspect test is enough benefit to offset the month-or-two delay. After all, if banning Gengarite really makes Kangaskhanite all that broken, then sure, Kangaskhanite can be banned as well. But at least then we'll have a better understanding of the effect Mega stones have on the metagame, and thus such things can be taken into account in future decisions. It definitely seems worth the time to fully analyze a brand new game mechanic rather than simply rushing into a ban to speed things up, just for the sake of being faster with a brand-new metagame we don't fully understand.

 

[gr8astard]

After all, if banning Gengarite really makes Kangaskhanite all that broken, then sure, Kangaskhanite can be banned as well. But at least then we'll have a better understanding of the effect Mega stones have on the metagame, and thus such things can be taken into account in future decisions. It definitely seems worth the time to fully analyze a brand new game mechanic rather than simply rushing into a ban to speed things up, just for the sake of being faster with a brand-new metagame we don't fully understand.

Just to be clear, the ban of MGengar won't make MKangaskhan more broken in any way. Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, etc will just be the next best thing if/once MGengar leaves OU. Heck regular Gengar checks Mega Kangaskhan better since it is immune to EQ (although more and more people runs Fire Punch/Crunch, but that's a different story). I am sure the council will decide to assess them in due time, but in no way does the ban of MGengar make MKangaskhan more powerful/broken than it currently is.

 

[Hopkinc1]

I agree with everyone else, don't rush ahead with banning anyone yet. It isn't a good idea. But when it comes to the issue at hand:
Gengar should be OU. A lot of people don't realize that these "buffs" that he gets also give him a few weaknesses For Instance:Shadow Tag can't trap Ghost types, so bringing him in on a ghost type to trap it and kill it is unreliable now.
Shadow Tag has taken away his ground immunity and traded it with a ground weakness
His secondary STAB option is SE against fairies, but he is a Special Attacker and fairies (at least the new Pokemon) are special Walls
Mega Evolutions mechanics with speed (and possibly power) still make him easy to OHKO on the first move.
Many other mega Evolutions also give Gengar a run for his money (Mega Alakazam, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Mawile, to an extent MegaGyarados)

Theres just too much working against him for me to see him as OU.

 

[Syberia]

We all know what Mega Gengar does once it's on the field, but I'm going to focus on the fact that, thanks to team preview, it can even accomplish a lot of this without even setting foot in battle. A good player, upon seeing Gengar in team preview (let's face it, there's probably a 99% chance it's going to be someone's mega; it's just that good), has their options severely limited for the rest of the match. I'm not talking about limited in the traditional sense of every other threat, where they must keep their counter/check alive to take on the thing it is supposed to counter/check, I'm talking about limited in the sense that it pretty much can't switch in, and certainly can't kill anything else, for fear of being trapped, revenge killed, and then swept by the thing it was supposed to stop. As to the supposed argument of 4 moveslots, it doesn't even figure into this argument because a good player will assume that another good player will run the moves necessary to beat [counter] for [sweeper also available in team preview].

In my history of pokemon battling (which runs back to Gen 1), I cannot think of anything which has, or could have, the same disruptive effect on a battle simply by showing itself in team preview. Forgive me for not staying up on the competitive Gen 5 scene (when did Landorus-I get banned, anyways?) but not even Gen 4 Deo-E or Garchomp come close. Sure, you had to keep your counter or check alive throughout the match, but if you would gain momentum or utility by bringing them in at another point, you were certainly welcome to do so without the risk of an instant revenge kill. Mega Gengar severely limits one's ability to even bring certain pokemon into battle for fear of being picked off and opening up a sweep by something else in a way that nothing else in the history of competitive pokemon has ever done. For the above reasons, it is unhealthy for the development of the metagame under the support clause, and warrants a quick ban.

 

[November Blue]

Now that I have a better understanding of the purpose of this thread, I think I can post something constructive. First, let me say that I agree with a Gengarite ban. Not quickban, not suspect test, ban.

The most important aspect of this issue is Shadow Tag; the ability is inherently broken. Switching is a fundamental, core mechanic of battling, and removing this aspect drastically alters how the game is played. Shadow Tag Gengar has a negative influence on the metagame because it removes the player's ability to respond to and check opponents, capitalize upon opportunities or retreat.

There's a difference between Gengar and all of the other Shadow Tag users. Wobbuffet needed an entire team built around it. Gothitelle is an awful Pokemon in general. Chandelure is slow, often choice-locked, and susceptible to entry hazards. Gengar is the opposite of these things. It singlehandedly provides support for its teammates by trapping and removing troublesome Pokemon. It has the stats and movepool needed to perform its role excellently.

Although, there is one problem with Gengar: It needs to be set up. Gengar doesn't start the game with Shadow Tag. You need to switch it in safely, Mega evolve it safely, then switch it out safely. That's two free turns for the opponent, at the very least. You could argue that Gengar needs team support to get off the ground. While other Megas will switch in, evolve and start doing dangerous stuff, Gengar almost requires that you switch it in, then back out again before it can start being truly effective.

Plus, the process of evolving Gengar isn't exactly beneficial to your team. You have to find a safe point in the course of the battle to stop what you're doing and switch in a very frail Pokemon, spend a turn attacking (during which your opponent can choose the conditions/matchup), then switch out to something else safely. In a way, Mega Gengar IS counterable because it can be switched into and stopped as it evolves. If your opponent keeps up the pressure, you might not get a chance to evolve Gengar and switch it out at all.

 

[dekzeh]

We all know what Mega Gengar does once it's on the field, but I'm going to focus on the fact that, thanks to team preview, it can even accomplish a lot of this without even setting foot in battle. A good player, upon seeing Gengar in team preview (let's face it, there's probably a 99% chance it's going to be someone's mega; it's just that good), has their options severely limited for the rest of the match. I'm not talking about limited in the traditional sense of every other threat, where they must keep their counter/check alive to take on the thing it is supposed to counter/check, I'm talking about limited in the sense that it pretty much can't switch in, and certainly can't kill anything else, for fear of being trapped, revenge killed, and then swept by the thing it was supposed to stop. As to the supposed argument of 4 moveslots, it doesn't even figure into this argument because a good player will assume that another good player will run the moves necessary to beat [counter] for [sweeper also available in team preview].

In my history of pokemon battling (which runs back to Gen 1), I cannot think of anything which has, or could have, the same disruptive effect on a battle simply by showing itself in team preview. Forgive me for not staying up on the competitive Gen 5 scene (when did Landorus-I get banned, anyways?) but not even Gen 4 Deo-E or Garchomp come close. Sure, you had to keep your counter or check alive throughout the match, but if you would gain momentum or utility by bringing them in at another point, you were certainly welcome to do so without the risk of an instant revenge kill. Mega Gengar severely limits one's ability to even bring certain pokemon into battle for fear of being picked off and opening up a sweep by something else in a way that nothing else in the history of competitive pokemon has ever done. For the above reasons, it is unhealthy for the development of the metagame under the support clause, and warrants a quick ban.

Not trying to advocate Gengar in OU as I'm all for the ban, but you argument isn't that good for the simple reason that Gengar needs a free turn to mega-evolve before it can trap anything.

Also, ADV Dugtrio does pretty much what you claimed Mega Gengar to be the 'first in the history of competitive pokemon to do', albeit its more restrictive in what it can trap. Magneton/Magnezone to a certain extent too. But still Mega Gengar is basically those two in steroids.