Groudon (QC 1/2)

[Ksh13]

[OVERVIEW]

• Primal Groudon is one of the most meta-defining Pokemon in VGC 16, as it is incredibly easy to put on teams
• Great Xern check
• During Harsh Sun it only has one weakness
• If it loses the weather war against Kyogre it really struggles
• Can be ran in many different ways, and on many different types of teams
• Very few Pokemon resist its combo of STABs

[SET]
name: Mixed Trick Room Attacker
move 1: Precipice Blades
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Eruption / Rock Slide
move 4: Protect
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Precipice Blades is an amazing STAB-move with spread that only hits the opposing two Pokemon, although the low accuracy is an annoyance
  
• Fire Punch is physcial Fire-type STAB
• Eruption is an incredibly good move, from full HP it is insanely hard hitting, as well as being spread
• Rock Slide hits Flying-types such as Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence and is spread
  
• Protect is mandatory, and allows Groudon to protect itself from hits, especially on the turn Trick Room is set
• Fire Blast and Flamethrower are options for single target special fire moves
• Swords Dance can be used in the third slot to power up Precipice Blades and Fire Punch

Set Details
========

• 252 HP for bulk
• 252 Atk for maximum physical power
• Brave lowers Spe to be as slow as possible during TR
• 0 IVs in Speed for TR
• Red Orb for primal reversion
• 252 HP / 100 Atk / 156 SpD lets you survive positive natured Primal Groudon's Earth Power

Usage Tips
========

• This set can be pretty good to lead together with Trick Room setters, as the opponent has to consider which Pokemon to focus on, as Primal Groudon can dish out a lot of damage, and if Trick Room comes up you have a big advantage in terms of Speed
• When Trick Room is up you only have four turns until it ends. Use those well to deal out as much damage as possible
• Groudon can also be kept in the back while you set up Trick Room, but this works best if you think your opponent is going to lead Primal Kyogre, as the harsh sun will give Primal Groudon almost a free switchin if Kyogre goes for a Water move
• When the opponent has Rayquaza out, be catious as it or its teammates can carry a Water-type move which hits Primal Groudon due to Air Lock

Team Options
========

• TR setters such as Bronzong and Cress, and Palkia.
• Gravity is amazing together with TR Groudon, as it allows for accurate Precipice Blades that also hits Flying-types such as Mega Salamence and Talonflame. Most TR setters such as Cresselia, Bronzong, and Palkia have access to Gravity
• Primal Kyogre checks such as Palkia, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss that fit well on TR
• Mega Mawile is a great partner to deal with Mega Rayquaza, which Primal groudon struggles with
• Fake Out users such as bulky Mega Kangaskhan and Hitmontop are good for assisting Trick Room setup, and also to give Primal Groudon some breathing space, especially if you lead the combo if you fear a very anti-TR setter lead
• Primal Kyogre is a great partner, as it forms a double Primal core, which has extreme offensive presence as long as you manage the weather game correctly

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Eruption
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Protect
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Eruption is an incredibly good move, from full HP it is insanely hard hitting, as well as being spread
• Earth Power allows it to KO opposing Primal Groudon
• Flamethrower is a more reliable Fire-type STAB move for when it is at low HP or the opponent has a Wide Guard user
• Protect lets it avoid hits for one turn, and allow its partner to KO the opposing Pokemon that threaten it, this is especially useful against Primal Kyogre
• Thunderbolt is an option to let you 3HKO Primal Kyogre

Set Details
========

• Red Orb is required for Primal reversion
• The spread and nature allow it to hit as hard as possible, and max Speed is essential to outspeed as many Pokemon as possible so they don't damage you before you use Eruption

Usage Tips
========

• If you know that there is a possibility of that you opponent has a Primal Kyogre in the back, be very careful of going for Eruption since your opponent will often switch in Kyogre to block it
• Try to avoid taking too much damage early in the match in order to preserve Eruptions power
• Primal Groudon can be used as a lead to break through the opponents team right from the start
• It can also be kept in the back to be used as a lategame cleaner, as well as possibly coming in to remove Primal Kyogre's rain
• When the opponent has Rayquaza out, be catious as it or its teammates can carry a Water-type move which hits Primal Groudon due to Air Lock

Team Options
========

• Mega Salamence is a great partner as it appreciates Primal groudon's ability to deal with Xerneas
• Primal Groudon can beat almost all of Xerneas' checks
• Skill Swap, Worry Seed, or Role Play Pokemon such as Cresselia, Whisicott, and Liepard can help Primal Groudon win the weather war against Primal Kyogre
• Tailwind setters such as Ho-Oh and Whimsicott are great for allowing Primal groudon to outspeed and kill everything with Eruption
• Smeargle is a great support Pokemon to any offensive Pokemon

[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Precipice Blades
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Overheat
move 4: Protect
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Precipice Blades is an amazing STAB-move with spread that only hits the opposing two Pokemon, although the low accuracy is an annoyance
• Fire Punch is its only option for physical Fire-STAB, and is pretty weak in terms of base power
• Stone Edge hits Flying-types and gets more OHKOes than Rock Slide does
• Rock Slide hits Flying-types such as Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence
• Overheat is an option if the Rock Slide coverage isn't necessary as a special nuke, which despite the Jolly nature does a lot of damage
• Eruption is also an option instead of Overheat
• Protect lets it avoid hits for one turn, and allow its partner to KO the opposing Pokemon that threaten it, this is especially useful against Primal Kyogre

Set Details
========

• Red Orb for primal reversion
• 252 Atk for high damage output
• 252 Spe and Jolly to have max speed and try ti win speedties against opposing primals

Usage Tips
========

• Primal Groudon can be used as a lead to break through the opponents team right from the start
• It can also be kept in the back to be used as a lategame cleaner, as well as possibly coming in to remove Primal Kyogre's rain
• When the opponent has Rayquaza out, be catious as it or its teammates can carry a Water-type move which hits Primal Groudon due to Air Lock

Team Options
========

• Mega Salamence is a great partner as it appreciates Primal groudon's ability to deal with Xerneas
• Primal Groudon can beat almost all of Xerneas' checks
• Skill Swap, Worry Seed, or Role Play Pokemon such as Cresselia, Whisicott, and Liepard can help Primal Groudon win the weather war against Primal Kyogre
• Smeargle is a great support Pokemon to any offensive Pokemon
• Meowstic with Swagger+Safeguard

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

• Thunder Wave
• Dragon Claw
• Solar Beam
• Psych Up
• Rock Tomb
• Roar
• HP Ice
• Substitute

Checks and Counters
===================

**Primal Kyogre**: If Primal Kyogre wins the weather war and gets up Heavy Rain, there is really not any way for Groudon to come out as the winner. Even when Harsh Sun is up, Kyogre still does something, especially to variants without Precipice Blades, since Fire-type moves won't do a lot against it, and Primal Kyogre often packs Ice Beam, which does a reasonable amount of damage

**Powerful Special Attackers**: Primal Groudon's Special Defense is pretty mediocre, and attacks such as Draco Meteor from Mega Rayquaza or other Dragon-types can KO it pretty easily

**Ground-types**: Ground-types such as Landorus-Incarnate and Therian can do heavy damage to Groudon with their Ground-type moves, Earth Power and Earthquake respectively

**Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh walls Primal Groudon variants that lack Rock Slide thanks to its typing as well as its great Special Defense, which allows it to soak up Eruption pretty easily, and can fire back with a Brave Bird. It also appreciates getting its Sacred Fire boosted by the Harsh Sun

**Dragon-types**: Dragon-types such as Mega Rayquaza, Mega Salamence, and Palkia are all able to soak up Primal Groudon's hits reasonably well, and deal hefty damage back with Draco Meteor or Earth Power

**Invalidating Desolate Land**: The Abilities Cloud Nine and Air Lock, as well as moves such as Worry Seed, Skill Swap, and Role Play are very common together with Primal Kyogre in order to give it the high ground against Primal Groudon, as with no weather or Heavy Rain Kyogre easily wins the matchup

 

[Ksh13]

Reminder to myself that I should get this out of WIP soon~

 

[cromagnet]

Reminder to myself that I should get this out of WIP soon~

Make the primal groudon trick room 108 atk and put 4 into defense

 

[Ksh13]

Done, thanks for catching that

edit @ below: did as well

 

[Peli]

Psych Up prob deserves a mention

 

[Ksh13]

Okay so I finally feel (kind of) comfortable putting this out of WIP. I am heavily considering doing something in regards to the special and physcial sets, since they are pretty similar outside of well, which attacking stat they utilize, so team options and usage tips easily become very similar, which really isn't a good thing. I struggled a lot with trying to make usage tips any different, but I couldn't really find a lot of good things that seperated them, so I hope the rest of QC can help me here.

 

[Jibaku]

Oh god please dont put the special set as the first set. It's horrible and ppl should stop using it. I could explain why, but this post might not be the appropriate place for that

I'm not kidding. I don't care that Paul Chua won Virginia with it - it's still a pretty bad set and I'm glad people are moving away from it in general.

That said...

Set ordering:
Physical/Mix TR -> Fast Special -> Fast Physical. I obviously think fast physical > fast special but the latter's more common so w/e. The slow/bulky Groudon tends to be the most reliable form of Groudon despite PBlades' accuracy.

Set changes:

General: Every set should mention why you'd run them on a team.

Fast Special:
- Deslash Substitute. It's one thing to weaken its primary move, but it's another to also remove a reliable Fire STAB in the process.
- Thunderbolt in set comments to 3HKO Kyogre/Ho-Oh and OHKO Talonflame.

Fast Physical:
- Slash Stone Edge on Rock Slide's spot as it can pick up OHKOes on certain mons like Thundurus and occasionally Rayquaza.
- Eruption in set comments because it's still a potent move even with Jolly

Physical TR:
- Should be a set
- Looks something like this

name: Physical Trick Room Attacker
move 1: Precipice Blades
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Rock Slide / Stone Edge / Swords Dance / Substitute
move 4: Protect
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 SpD
(note: there are many ways to EV this thing. Physical TR groudon typically uses some special defense, with a minimum of being able to survive Timid Groudon Earth Power. However, people have different approaches to achieving that EV spread)

Mix TR:
- Slash Fire Punch in 3rd option
- Slash Brave in
- Earth Power is viable alongside PBlade. You want Gravity support for this, though.

Roar and HP Ice in other options

Last but not least: Primal Kyogre should be mentioned as a teammate. Dual Primal is one of the most dominant archetypes and this analysis mentions none of that.

 

[pokemastanumba1]

On the fast physical set, Overheat should be slashed alongside Fire Punch instead (why would you run both the same set?), with (as Jibaku mentioned above) Stone Edge taking its place alongside Rock Slide in the 3rd slot.

As for the set order, IMO it should be Mixed TR > Fast Physical > Physical TR (the new set Jibaku proposed above) > Fast Special

One thing, I wouldn't include Sub on any of the sets since it takes up a valuable moveslot (and is counterproductive with Eruption if you're using that). A strong OO mention is fine.

Speaking of OO, Stone Edge and Swords Dance can be removed since they're both included in a main set.

 

[Take Azelfie]

in usage tips you should be mention that Rayquaza occasionally carries Waterfall so you need to watch out for that.

 

[Carbonific]

in usage tips you should be mention that Rayquaza occasionally carries Waterfall so you need to watch out for that.

You could probably expand that to Water-type coverage in general, since teams with Rayquaza will sometimes pass off something like Hidden Power Water to a teammate.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Eruption
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Falmethrower / Substitute
move 4: Protect
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

might wanna fix that Ksh13

 

[Jio]

Ok talked to Jibaku about this and we agreed that the set order should be Physical TR -> Mixed TR -> Fast special -> Fast physical

-The Physical TR set looks fine with Precipice Blades, Fire Punch, Rock Slide
-I think the Mixed TR set needs Earth Power in the 3rd slot in order to do the most damage (and usually OHKO) opposing Groudons as well as doing more damage to Dialga than its other moves. Also slashing Fire Punch behind Earth Power should work since it is more consistent vs Xerneas. Also slash in Brave behind Quiet and explain how it is used to deal more damage vs Primal Kyogre and a Geomancy'd Xerneas.
-Fast Special set looks good
-Fast Physical set definitely wants Stone Edge > Rock Slide as being able to slug Thundurus, normal Rayquaza, Ho-Oh for more damage (often OHKOing each) is way too good to pass up.
-Seconding that Roar and HP Ice deserve a mention

Also make a mention of moves that can invalidate Groudon's Desolate Land such as Worry Seed, Skill Swap, Role Play, and Cloud Nine/Air Lock in the counters section as these moves and abilities are often paired with Kyogre or Rayquaza in an attempt to take Groudon out.

Going to QC 1/2 this since I want to help get the ball rolling on what is probably the most important legendary in the format. Good luck :]

 

[Take Azelfie]

Um I think when you edited this you messed up something as everything besides the set for Physical Trick Room Attacker (The first one) is gone

 

[Ksh13]

Talked with Jio on irc about merging the two Trick Room sets, since they are pretty similar and especially team options and usage tips there is not a lot of difference, so it is now one physically based mixed set. Think I got everything Jio said, also covered the majority of what others have said, I used like an hour going over this to implement all of it. Ready for next QC check.

 

[Ksh13]

Dropping this due to a lack of motivation to write this and also lack of having played the meta much lately