I find Tough Claws Haxorus to be outclassed -- it may have better Attack than most things, but other Dragons have superior typing that allow them to run alternate STAB. Obviously this isn't important on Protean sets. Regardless, I still can't recall ever seeing a non-Protean Haxorus on the ladder, and even then, it's one of the rarer Protean users.
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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
Firstly, I have only seen a few Haxorus on this ladder, and I have not once encountered a protean Haxorus. Second, I would not run triple priority on these personally, especially not a speedy-ish mon like Haxorus. I am using Drain Punch/Fire Punch/Rock Slide/Sucker Punch, and it works so well. It's a weird set, but it has great coverage.
What would I switch out? The only thing I see as viable here to take out is Toxic.
koff or toxic, koff on umbreon is more of a support move anyway, your call thought.
I agree, that's probably a better set, but people on the ladder are uncreative. Maybe it's just my luck, but nearly every Pokemon defined solely by high Attack will be a Protean set, and every Protean set I encounter has some combination of Fake Out, Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch. Drain Punch is almost always there too, with occasionally an elemental Punch swapping out one of the priority moves. Again, I don't use Protean, so these are just my experiences on the ladder.
Has anyone mentioned Mega-Alakazam inheriting Darkrai?
Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dream Eater
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
It's ridiculous.
Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dream Eater
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
It's ridiculous.
Physical proteans aren't broken.
Special proteans aren't broken.
Mixed proteabs are broken.
And all of them are uncompetitive.
Physical and special proteans aren't broken, physical aren't hard to wall if you KNOW its set. The problem is, regardless of what move you see, your wall is never a counter. Even if I see Ice beam, I don't know if it'll pack flamethrower, thunderbolt ect. Because of that it's not like Terrakion, where you can know its set based on one move. It's large variation makes it immensely hard for ANY team.
I can confidently say that every team is weak to protean... Lets just list up moves
Flamethrower, ice beam, thunderbolt, grass knot, shadow ball, dark pulse, extrasensory, u-turn, hydro pump, drain punch, nasty plot, knock off, double-edge, aqua tail, toxic spikes, spikes, thunder punch, ice punch, water shurikan, fire punch, power-up-punch, sucker punch, shadow sneak and fake out. Priority isn't reliable because it can just change its typing to prevent you from revenge killing. And none of these aren't unviable together... And unless you're using your entire team to handle protean, you're going to be weak to it. I'm using a thick fat diancie and I'm STILL weak to it. Even with a diancie, my opponent has Nasty plot + DRAIN PUNCH. And i was just... Done. I couldn't do anything despise dedicating an ENTIRE teamslot.
Wouldn't mind a duel suspect
Special proteans aren't broken.
Mixed proteabs are broken.
And all of them are uncompetitive.
Physical and special proteans aren't broken, physical aren't hard to wall if you KNOW its set. The problem is, regardless of what move you see, your wall is never a counter. Even if I see Ice beam, I don't know if it'll pack flamethrower, thunderbolt ect. Because of that it's not like Terrakion, where you can know its set based on one move. It's large variation makes it immensely hard for ANY team.
I can confidently say that every team is weak to protean... Lets just list up moves
Flamethrower, ice beam, thunderbolt, grass knot, shadow ball, dark pulse, extrasensory, u-turn, hydro pump, drain punch, nasty plot, knock off, double-edge, aqua tail, toxic spikes, spikes, thunder punch, ice punch, water shurikan, fire punch, power-up-punch, sucker punch, shadow sneak and fake out. Priority isn't reliable because it can just change its typing to prevent you from revenge killing. And none of these aren't unviable together... And unless you're using your entire team to handle protean, you're going to be weak to it. I'm using a thick fat diancie and I'm STILL weak to it. Even with a diancie, my opponent has Nasty plot + DRAIN PUNCH. And i was just... Done. I couldn't do anything despise dedicating an ENTIRE teamslot.
Wouldn't mind a duel suspect
I honestly don't think that Protean is broken. I feel like if you are actually trying to dedicate a pokemon to checking mixed Protean it really isn't the hardest thing ever. Like, the coverage is versatile, but the power of the vast majority of the moves are really low. You just need something that is neutral to most of the moves run, with enough SpD to take Fire Blasts and Hydro Pumps.
My physically Defensive Unaware Florges for example is a great counter to protean/mixed protean.
It has enough SpD to take the 110 bp Special moves and isn't weak to any of the special coverage.
It has Unaware to ignore Nasty Plot.
And it has enough Physical Defence when invested to take all the physical hits because they are low powered and not super effective (lets be real no one uses Iron Tail).
RIP Kecleon Inheritors.
The only threats are Greninja inheritors running Gunk Shot, but even they won't OHKO so I can just switch to my Intimidate SpD Kingdra to check Greninja inheritors.
Greninja inheritors are generally less common and easier to check anyway from my experiences.
I'm sure there are other pokemon that can check Mixed Protean too. I'm thinking there are probably plenty of pokemon with decent typing and high SpD to take Special Protean, that can just run Intimidate and Phazing/Hazing to handle Physical/Mixed Protean and Nasty Plot Protean. Or High SpD with Prankster Will-O-Wisp and Phazing could work to if you can come in. There could even be more pokemon like Florges that can just invest either way and run Unaware. Idk though I haven't calced to see if anything is better than Florges (but I haven't had too soooo...).
I think if stall actually tries there are much harder things to check than Protean, even mixed Protean.
Also to my experience a well built stall team is already very strong, and freeing up a pokemon by banning Protean would possibly lead to it becoming quite dominant and leading to further suspects like inheriting from Mega Sableye.
So I don't see Protean being a suspect worthy at all from a stall perspective.
As for Balance and Offence:
I think that Balance can also fit a Protean check in easy enough if they choose to, I mean my Florges is really just a defensive pivot with Stealth Rock and Heal Bell, so you could slap that on balance easy enough. Plus Balance appreciates being able to run Protean itself, given that it gives some strong priority to handle offence, or versatile mixed offence to threaten out certain stall mon. Where as Offence really appreciates utilising almost everything Protean has to offer, and would greatly miss Protean. Offence also has Extreme Speed to revenge Protean users and doesn't mind having to sack a mon to do that.
I just don't see any play style that is really hammered by Protean being legal. All play styles have options available to them that prevent them from being destroyed by Protean users, and most enjoy running Protean for themselves. The meta is perfectly balanced with Protean in it and if you ban Protean you'll just be making the meta less fun to play. I just don't wanna see all these bans ruining a perfectly fun and balanced meta simply because people won't make an effort to be creative, which is what happened with Linked. There's no point in suspecting Protean imo.
I can get behind an Illusion suspect though. Its not necessarily straight up broken but it can be if used right, and is bordering the "uncompetive" side of things. Just not knowing makes such a big difference. Before team preview became a thing Zoroark was one of the most annoying pokemon you could possibly come up against, because there is simply no way of knowing. I haven't even came up against any Illusion mons yet, but I'd like to think that I can play a meta where I can be confident that my Chansey will check my opponents Gengar, without having to first makes sure that my opponents Gengar isn't a freaking Pangoro!
I would however like to see some replays of Illusion racking up some game changing surprise kills that people shouldn't have to put up with, before we go banning it should the suspect officially take place.
tl;dr
Yay Illusion Suspect
Nay Protean Suspect
I can confidently say that my team is not.
My physically Defensive Unaware Florges for example is a great counter to protean/mixed protean.
It has enough SpD to take the 110 bp Special moves and isn't weak to any of the special coverage.
It has Unaware to ignore Nasty Plot.
And it has enough Physical Defence when invested to take all the physical hits because they are low powered and not super effective (lets be real no one uses Iron Tail).
RIP Kecleon Inheritors.
The only threats are Greninja inheritors running Gunk Shot, but even they won't OHKO so I can just switch to my Intimidate SpD Kingdra to check Greninja inheritors.
Greninja inheritors are generally less common and easier to check anyway from my experiences.
I'm sure there are other pokemon that can check Mixed Protean too. I'm thinking there are probably plenty of pokemon with decent typing and high SpD to take Special Protean, that can just run Intimidate and Phazing/Hazing to handle Physical/Mixed Protean and Nasty Plot Protean. Or High SpD with Prankster Will-O-Wisp and Phazing could work to if you can come in. There could even be more pokemon like Florges that can just invest either way and run Unaware. Idk though I haven't calced to see if anything is better than Florges (but I haven't had too soooo...).
I think if stall actually tries there are much harder things to check than Protean, even mixed Protean.
Also to my experience a well built stall team is already very strong, and freeing up a pokemon by banning Protean would possibly lead to it becoming quite dominant and leading to further suspects like inheriting from Mega Sableye.
So I don't see Protean being a suspect worthy at all from a stall perspective.
As for Balance and Offence:
I think that Balance can also fit a Protean check in easy enough if they choose to, I mean my Florges is really just a defensive pivot with Stealth Rock and Heal Bell, so you could slap that on balance easy enough. Plus Balance appreciates being able to run Protean itself, given that it gives some strong priority to handle offence, or versatile mixed offence to threaten out certain stall mon. Where as Offence really appreciates utilising almost everything Protean has to offer, and would greatly miss Protean. Offence also has Extreme Speed to revenge Protean users and doesn't mind having to sack a mon to do that.
I just don't see any play style that is really hammered by Protean being legal. All play styles have options available to them that prevent them from being destroyed by Protean users, and most enjoy running Protean for themselves. The meta is perfectly balanced with Protean in it and if you ban Protean you'll just be making the meta less fun to play. I just don't wanna see all these bans ruining a perfectly fun and balanced meta simply because people won't make an effort to be creative, which is what happened with Linked. There's no point in suspecting Protean imo.
I can get behind an Illusion suspect though. Its not necessarily straight up broken but it can be if used right, and is bordering the "uncompetive" side of things. Just not knowing makes such a big difference. Before team preview became a thing Zoroark was one of the most annoying pokemon you could possibly come up against, because there is simply no way of knowing. I haven't even came up against any Illusion mons yet, but I'd like to think that I can play a meta where I can be confident that my Chansey will check my opponents Gengar, without having to first makes sure that my opponents Gengar isn't a freaking Pangoro!
I would however like to see some replays of Illusion racking up some game changing surprise kills that people shouldn't have to put up with, before we go banning it should the suspect officially take place.
tl;dr
Yay Illusion Suspect
Nay Protean Suspect
I think people are overestimating how Protean destroys everything. Please don't act like you can use both Kecleon and Greninja's movepool at once. Greninja doesn't learn Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Drain Punch, Fake Out, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and elemental punches. You know what this means? If your opponent use ANY one of the moves above, it's definitely gonna be Kecleon. What walls Mixed Kecleon's moves? Bulky Fairies like Florges and Diancie are generally good answers, unless they run moves like Iron Tail, which is a terrible move. Also Throh is also a good Kecleon check, able to take any Protean attacks and retaliate with Fighting move if they try to Nasty Plot.
Kecleon doesn't get Dark Pulse, Water Shuriken, U-turn, Gunk Shot, Low Kick and Hydro Pump. It means if you see one of those moves, it'll be Greninja. Porygon2 is the best answer to Greninja inheritors, as it can pretty much take anything (Low Kick only has 60 BP to Porygon2). Throh can also be a good answer to Greninja inheritors unless you expects the opponent to waste a moveslot with Extrasensory, which is a bad move. Diancie requires you to have Water Absorb to be a counter.
In fact, I'd say Primal Weathers have more limited answers than Protean because of the immense firepower to the point it can 2HKO Chansey. You're pretty much finished if your Goodra's dead or it's Assault Vest is knocked off or Tricked.
And yeah. Suspecting Protean will lead to further suspects like Mega Sableye, Primal Weathers, Megas like Pinsir, Altaria, Gyarados or even inheriting from Mega Lucario, leading to too much bans. There are answers to Protean and if you ban it, you pretty much guarantee a suspect of other things that have answers. This is what I don't want, making Inheritance have too much bans.
I agree with Illusion suspect though. It's uncompetitive, almost like Shadow Tag because it gives you guaranteed kills, like I said before in my previous post.
Edit: I forgot to mention a very underestimated Mega that has defeated me once, called Mega Venusaur. With it's bulk and Thick Fat, it can take pretty much any kind of Protean attacks (except Extrasensory, which is a bad move as I mentioned).
Kecleon doesn't get Dark Pulse, Water Shuriken, U-turn, Gunk Shot, Low Kick and Hydro Pump. It means if you see one of those moves, it'll be Greninja. Porygon2 is the best answer to Greninja inheritors, as it can pretty much take anything (Low Kick only has 60 BP to Porygon2). Throh can also be a good answer to Greninja inheritors unless you expects the opponent to waste a moveslot with Extrasensory, which is a bad move. Diancie requires you to have Water Absorb to be a counter.
In fact, I'd say Primal Weathers have more limited answers than Protean because of the immense firepower to the point it can 2HKO Chansey. You're pretty much finished if your Goodra's dead or it's Assault Vest is knocked off or Tricked.
And yeah. Suspecting Protean will lead to further suspects like Mega Sableye, Primal Weathers, Megas like Pinsir, Altaria, Gyarados or even inheriting from Mega Lucario, leading to too much bans. There are answers to Protean and if you ban it, you pretty much guarantee a suspect of other things that have answers. This is what I don't want, making Inheritance have too much bans.
I agree with Illusion suspect though. It's uncompetitive, almost like Shadow Tag because it gives you guaranteed kills, like I said before in my previous post.
Edit: I forgot to mention a very underestimated Mega that has defeated me once, called Mega Venusaur. With it's bulk and Thick Fat, it can take pretty much any kind of Protean attacks (except Extrasensory, which is a bad move as I mentioned).
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Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
ooooooook, now we are going in the "is this a joke" territory, illusion and protean are neither uncompetative OR broken. so why would we suspect them? illusion albeit being a bit unfair, is just that, its slightly unfair, for offensive teams, losing one pokemon to another via a suprise move/ability is rather common(hp steel lando, knock off special azelf, etc etc), and just because the pokemon is another pokemon doesn't change that rule. "oh no, that gengar damaged/ohkoed my stall/offensive mon. well at least now with chip damage/i can assume pangoro will be either gengar or pangoro, so i better hit it with a move that threatens one, but still hits the other" and stall runs unaware/godlike walls anyways, so its not like nasty plots/swords dances are going to be scaring it off. lmao.
protean has counters AND checks, nobody runs them, if your running a stall team with no check to proteaners (diancie, forges,pretty much any fairy for kec) your clearly going to lose. considering protean is like...the #1 ability in this meta. as for gren, it doesnt have the movepool to be warrenting a "Seperate counter" just run goodra or something, low kick and gunk shot both lack power to beat it uninvested, and ive never seen a physical gren inh for obvious reasons.
honestly people, you CANT balance this meta perfectly. nomatter what you do, this meta is DESIGNED to suprise counters. we cant FORCE lando to run aerialate all the time, we cant FORCE azelf to run physical protean. banning what little this meta offers will only water it down. and it WILL become a unplayable meta if we keep going this route. usually im all for banning broken/uncompetative stuff, but neither illusion OR protean are uncompetative by description.
uncompetative is when something relys on "luck" rather then "skill" illusion does not rely on either of these, but relies on "suprise factor" which albeit being a bit cowardly, it is more skill based then luck by technical terms. illusion has no coin flips or hax abuse involved, and therefore is not uncompetative.
being broken however, is how both of these can be debated, and...again, neither are. checks for both of these mons are very splashable, and counters DO exist. its one thing to have few counters and lots of checks, its another thing entirely to lack counters AND checks or having NO counters and few checks. when debating checks, as much as i hate to bring it up like this, you talk about its CURRENT SET. and not "every set" and every common protean set has plenty of counters. does protean centralize the meta in an unhealthy way? no. ive never played a game and said after "fuck protean" protean is rarely why i lose games. and by definition, protean is "good, but not broken" status from what ive seen.
illusion, is actually the closer one to broken. but again...its really not when you get into technical terms, illusion does not centralize the meta in an unhealthy way, heck, i rarely even see it on the ladder, and ive yet to see replays of it DOING anything. illusion might suprise you, but thats no different then landorus running protean to beat its usual aerialate counters, so even if it DID, thats no argument for it being broken.
as i see it, neither is broken OR uncompetative, and there's literally no way to change that, since this is going by official definition and meta trends, and not just some opinion i threw out of nowhere.
also as a side note, shadow tag was a "exception" ban, its neither broken or uncompetative. its literally just a "fuck you" to both, since it FORCES matchups it favors. its practically like not having counters at all. so in that term, its broken, NOT uncompetative. just so you know.
protean has counters AND checks, nobody runs them, if your running a stall team with no check to proteaners (diancie, forges,pretty much any fairy for kec) your clearly going to lose. considering protean is like...the #1 ability in this meta. as for gren, it doesnt have the movepool to be warrenting a "Seperate counter" just run goodra or something, low kick and gunk shot both lack power to beat it uninvested, and ive never seen a physical gren inh for obvious reasons.
honestly people, you CANT balance this meta perfectly. nomatter what you do, this meta is DESIGNED to suprise counters. we cant FORCE lando to run aerialate all the time, we cant FORCE azelf to run physical protean. banning what little this meta offers will only water it down. and it WILL become a unplayable meta if we keep going this route. usually im all for banning broken/uncompetative stuff, but neither illusion OR protean are uncompetative by description.
uncompetative is when something relys on "luck" rather then "skill" illusion does not rely on either of these, but relies on "suprise factor" which albeit being a bit cowardly, it is more skill based then luck by technical terms. illusion has no coin flips or hax abuse involved, and therefore is not uncompetative.
being broken however, is how both of these can be debated, and...again, neither are. checks for both of these mons are very splashable, and counters DO exist. its one thing to have few counters and lots of checks, its another thing entirely to lack counters AND checks or having NO counters and few checks. when debating checks, as much as i hate to bring it up like this, you talk about its CURRENT SET. and not "every set" and every common protean set has plenty of counters. does protean centralize the meta in an unhealthy way? no. ive never played a game and said after "fuck protean" protean is rarely why i lose games. and by definition, protean is "good, but not broken" status from what ive seen.
illusion, is actually the closer one to broken. but again...its really not when you get into technical terms, illusion does not centralize the meta in an unhealthy way, heck, i rarely even see it on the ladder, and ive yet to see replays of it DOING anything. illusion might suprise you, but thats no different then landorus running protean to beat its usual aerialate counters, so even if it DID, thats no argument for it being broken.
as i see it, neither is broken OR uncompetative, and there's literally no way to change that, since this is going by official definition and meta trends, and not just some opinion i threw out of nowhere.
also as a side note, shadow tag was a "exception" ban, its neither broken or uncompetative. its literally just a "fuck you" to both, since it FORCES matchups it favors. its practically like not having counters at all. so in that term, its broken, NOT uncompetative. just so you know.
Your team is definitely looking weak to protean bro.
Anyway the main thing about protean, I already said it, you can't run every move at the same time. And the movepools aren't even that varied. Azelf runs sucker / drain punch / koff / fire blast / ice beam / T-bolt, the other moves are subpar. And stuff like the prviously mentionned florges can switch in pretty easily at least to scout, it's pretty rare that they have a move to outright ko you. Other stuff like ph throh, umbreon, swampert, ff escavalier, motor drive manaphy, av entei, prank spiritomb or most phisDef cresselia, idk a bunch of stuff can take the most standard moves. Stall shouldn't have too much of a hard time.
Protean can get past or heavily damage some stall teams but that's to be expected from a stallbreaker tbh.
Take isa simple's team for example:
Phisical protean
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Haxorus Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Haxorus Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 239-282 (66.3 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mixed protean
252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Hoopa Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 196-231 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Hoopa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kingdra: 175-207 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even Azelf
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Azelf Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 156-185 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If a ban is still going to happen, ban inheriting from keckleon because greningja is perfectly fine. Knock off / drain punch is just really good coverage against most special wall.
Against other playstyle, idk, rking isn't that hard. And a bunch of common mons can take 2hits. Goodra can almost always take 2 hits if it switches on a special move. And Espeed or -atespeed is a thing, not to mention scarfers or just faster mons.
I agree with Lcass on this one, I rarely prepare for protean and am even really weak to it sometimes but that doesn't mean I'll lose on team preview every time there's a protean. It's manageable is what I'm trying to say.
On illusion I'm really mad not to have kept more replays now, I got a lot, like really a lot of turn 1 kill just because of illusion. Killing the opposing gardevoire on a banded sucker punch turn 1 and using the same mon to knock off a chansey later in the match. Killing god knows how many doublades / cress / slowbro etc... with illusion hoopa on turn 1.
It's not even against shit players too. Turn 1 kill vs Adrian Marin, turn 1 kill vs Glyx, Aja, arkeis... I won god knows how many matches just because of illusion. That thing is completely retarded. There's no way to predict it and the mon you're disguised at isn't even constant during the match. Hell it's not even hard to play or based on skill. Lead with ursaring, click shadow ball / focus blast and goodbye ursaring counter. Send latios on chansey, click banded knock off and goodbye latios counter.
Unfortunately the only replay I could find have is this, but I'll get more.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-292708744
Anyway the main thing about protean, I already said it, you can't run every move at the same time. And the movepools aren't even that varied. Azelf runs sucker / drain punch / koff / fire blast / ice beam / T-bolt, the other moves are subpar. And stuff like the prviously mentionned florges can switch in pretty easily at least to scout, it's pretty rare that they have a move to outright ko you. Other stuff like ph throh, umbreon, swampert, ff escavalier, motor drive manaphy, av entei, prank spiritomb or most phisDef cresselia, idk a bunch of stuff can take the most standard moves. Stall shouldn't have too much of a hard time.
Protean can get past or heavily damage some stall teams but that's to be expected from a stallbreaker tbh.
Take isa simple's team for example:
Phisical protean
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Haxorus Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Haxorus Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 239-282 (66.3 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mixed protean
252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Hoopa Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 196-231 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Hoopa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kingdra: 175-207 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even Azelf
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Azelf Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 156-185 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If a ban is still going to happen, ban inheriting from keckleon because greningja is perfectly fine. Knock off / drain punch is just really good coverage against most special wall.
Against other playstyle, idk, rking isn't that hard. And a bunch of common mons can take 2hits. Goodra can almost always take 2 hits if it switches on a special move. And Espeed or -atespeed is a thing, not to mention scarfers or just faster mons.
I agree with Lcass on this one, I rarely prepare for protean and am even really weak to it sometimes but that doesn't mean I'll lose on team preview every time there's a protean. It's manageable is what I'm trying to say.
On illusion I'm really mad not to have kept more replays now, I got a lot, like really a lot of turn 1 kill just because of illusion. Killing the opposing gardevoire on a banded sucker punch turn 1 and using the same mon to knock off a chansey later in the match. Killing god knows how many doublades / cress / slowbro etc... with illusion hoopa on turn 1.
It's not even against shit players too. Turn 1 kill vs Adrian Marin, turn 1 kill vs Glyx, Aja, arkeis... I won god knows how many matches just because of illusion. That thing is completely retarded. There's no way to predict it and the mon you're disguised at isn't even constant during the match. Hell it's not even hard to play or based on skill. Lead with ursaring, click shadow ball / focus blast and goodbye ursaring counter. Send latios on chansey, click banded knock off and goodbye latios counter.
Unfortunately the only replay I could find have is this, but I'll get more.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-292708744
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
aaanyways, on a more fun note, ill bring you a funny poke i took from bh, and shockingly it has done quite a bit for my teams,
Venusaur @ Black Sludge (inheriting from volbeat)
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Trick
- Toxic/Thunder Wave
- U-turn
- Encore
this set used to be somewhat popular in the BH metagame, but i wanted to try it out in this meta, i use venu, because...well...hes the only viable poison type i could think of, and he has a pretty nifty typing to combat altaria, and other pesky mons. and has decent all around bulk, trick is the "why" move of this set, trick is a amazing tool in that it practically turns a poke on the opposing team into a liability, suicune, chansey, any bulky pokemon forced to take black sludge will HATE you for it. and in return i love it. toxic is basically for a 100% accurate move that whittles down hp once black sludge has been used/wasted. not fearing the miss can be quite helpful sometimes, and when added with black sludge damage, makes quick work of even the bulkiest of tanks HOWEVER, thunder wave CAN work if you just want to go the "sweeperz rule" route. u-turn and encore are obviously for pivoting into sweepers and whatnot. this pokemon is a nifty block to offense AND stall. and heres some replays of what venu is capable of bringing to teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-294650600
all 1 of them ;~; hm...couldve sworn i saved more...well, ill try to get more replays of this in action, but from my experience, its a nice utility mon that helps all sorts of teams.
Venusaur @ Black Sludge (inheriting from volbeat)
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Trick
- Toxic/Thunder Wave
- U-turn
- Encore
this set used to be somewhat popular in the BH metagame, but i wanted to try it out in this meta, i use venu, because...well...hes the only viable poison type i could think of, and he has a pretty nifty typing to combat altaria, and other pesky mons. and has decent all around bulk, trick is the "why" move of this set, trick is a amazing tool in that it practically turns a poke on the opposing team into a liability, suicune, chansey, any bulky pokemon forced to take black sludge will HATE you for it. and in return i love it. toxic is basically for a 100% accurate move that whittles down hp once black sludge has been used/wasted. not fearing the miss can be quite helpful sometimes, and when added with black sludge damage, makes quick work of even the bulkiest of tanks HOWEVER, thunder wave CAN work if you just want to go the "sweeperz rule" route. u-turn and encore are obviously for pivoting into sweepers and whatnot. this pokemon is a nifty block to offense AND stall. and heres some replays of what venu is capable of bringing to teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-294650600
all 1 of them ;~; hm...couldve sworn i saved more...well, ill try to get more replays of this in action, but from my experience, its a nice utility mon that helps all sorts of teams.
I don't know why people keep saying Kecleon running Iron Tail is shit. Just the ability to go "ha ha no" to Toxic/gain an amazing defensive type in general makes it a useful move for Protean sets, in addition to it letting Kecleon inheritors kill Fairy-type so-called counters. I regularly run into Azelf with Iron Tail, and it dramatically extends their longevity. Even if it misses, it can be valuable to use, thanks to Protean.
There isn't really... fuck it.
Kecleon
Aqua Tail, Blizzard, Drain Punch, Fire Blast, Fire Punch, Flamethrower, Focus Punch, Foul Play, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Low Kick, Rock Slide, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Sucker Punch, Thunder, Thunder Punch, Thunderbolt
Focusing on types, leaving out moves of 60 BP or less (As well as stuff like Dig), we have
Fire, Water, Fighting, Grass, Ice, Steel, Dark/Ghost, Rock, Electric
Fire covers: Grass, Ice, Bug, and Steel
Water adds: Fire, Ground, Rock
Fighting adds: Dark, Normal
Steel adds: Fairy
Grass adds: Water
Ice adds: Dragon, Flying
Dark/Ghost adds: Psychic, Ghost
So. Out of 18 types in the game, Kecleon has moves for hitting 15 of them super effectively. It is only lacking answers to Poison, Electric, and Fighting types. In practice, Electric and Poison types are rare, and bulky enough to be stall-viable options are still rarer. Zapdos and Magnezone are basically the only decent Electric types for walling, and they're both weak to coverage Kecleon provides. This leaves basically a handful of Fighting types, such as Throh, to consistently wall Kecleon inheritors.
Now, Greninja, same rules.
Acrobatics, Blizzard, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Grass Knot, Gunk Shot, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Low Kick, Night Slash, Rock Slide, Scald, U-turn, Waterfall
Flying, Ice, Dark, Psychic, Grass, Poison, Fighting, Rock, Bug. Fewer types, but wait, get to the conclusion:
Flying covers: Bug, Grass, Fighting.
Ice adds: Flying, Ground, Dragon
Psychic adds: Poison
Fighting adds: Steel, Rock, Normal, Dark, Ice
Water adds: Fire
Poison adds: Fairy
Dark adds: Ghost, Psychic
Grass adds: Water
So Greninja has super effective coverage against 17 out of 18 types. The only type that isn't potentially weak to competent moves on it (And note that everything Acrobatics covers is also covered by other moves, so even if you want to assume an item and therefore discount Acrobatics, there's no change to this number) is Electric types again, which has the same problems I laid out with Kecleon.
Now, plenty of Pokemon movepools are potentially super effective against 18 out of 18 types without this being broken, because they'll only have STAB on one or two types, restricting their peak damage to at most something like 8 different types. Protean means you get full damage against all of these.
So what's your safe switch-in on Protean, again? Apparently, it has to be a pure Electric type with, you know, competent defensive stats. So Arceus-Electric I guess? I suppose Sap Sipper Lanturn/Rotom-Wash are acceptably bulky, and never fear Protean. Hell, Miltank can provide Milk Drink and Sap Sipper, so they have adequate health.
252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Haxorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 172-203 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
... oh.
252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Haxorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 250-294 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Marginally better, still painfully vulnerable.
Still, at least they can reliably wall Azelf. That's something.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 200-238 (44 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
---
Even so, Protean is very nearly unwallable by type. Things are probably a bit better when you take into account that this is using mixed attackers as an assumption and ignoring the overall ability to hit on a given side (eg Greninja doesn't have any Special Fighting moves, neither of them has a Special anti-Fairy move, etc), but seriously, STAB super effective against all but 3 types or all but one? You're supposed to expect a wall to cope with this... how?
Even with just the right three moves you're already hitting 11 types STAB super effectively with Greninja as the donor, or 9 with Kecleon as the donor. Again: with three moves. Not four, completely ignoring the utility of priority moves and Status moves and so on, just focusing on STAB super effective hits off of three moves. Going "But no individual one is hitting 15/17 types STAB super effectively at once!" isn't that much of an improvement.
Protean is kind of nutty.
You seem to be defining luck specifically as "randomized numbers are involved". The more information you remove, the more luck-based things are. Illusion, with the inability to know ahead of time it's even a thing on the enemy team let alone pick out what thing it is once you do know, usually by virtue of losing a Pokemon, that they have Illusion, removes so much information critical to making an informed decision that it substantially shifts things towards luck.
RNG is unequivocally luck, but the RNG being uninvolved doesn't automatically make a thing not luck-based.
Ice Punch.
Back when I made a Protean spam team, I had two Pokemon carrying Iron Tail. Even before I did the Protean spam team per se, I carried Iron Tail on my Kecleon inheritor because Fairies make up a lot of important, dangerous things, such as Geomancy Power Herb abuse, Fairy Unaware is popular, Belly Drum Mega Diancie is a thing, etc. Being able to beat Fairies is not some niche thing, and being able to turn Steel type at will can be amazing all by itself.
You're also ignoring the part where Kecleon gets Trick. Back when I did Protean spam, it struggled against stall until I switched two members to Choice Trick. Suddenly Mega Sableye was the only stallmon that gave the team any trouble, and that was more commentary on how overly weighted toward Physical attackers I was than anything else.
No. This is bad logic in any meta (At what point do you actually say it's OK to ban something, if banning things is "leading toward" banning too many things by default??), but in Inheritance in particular it's bad logic. If we ban Protean it's substantially more likely that currently unused/underused things will suddenly leap to prominence than it is that the meta will suddenly be unable to cope with various existing things the meta copes with, especially since the only thing Protean does of any value to the meta is provide an absurdly powerful tool for breaking dedicated walls without regard to which side they're supposed to wall. Dedicated walls of that sort already have plenty of ways to get around them, mixed Protean isn't the only answer to strong walls.
I've always preferred Haxorus to Rampardos thanks to its less vulnerable switch-in typing, increased bulk, and the fact that enemies almost always assume their Fairy is a valid switch-in when it's not.
Also, to re-iterate a point: 10% damage gain is smaller than damage variance, so if Rampardos only has a 10% damage advantage over Haxorus, yeah, that's basically irrelevant.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
luck
lək/
noun
- 1.
success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions.
verb
informal
- 1.
chance to find or acquire.
On the protean issue, i really don't know. I've never struggled with it, but I've also really only used it once, so I don't know how useful it is.
On a different note, this is my team. It's done pretty well by me so far.
Regirock @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spore
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Stone Edge
This is my main guy. He walls all 3 atespeeders, countering all of them when they haven't set up. In fact, he beats all of them at +2 (although only Pinsir if I've already spored a mon), as well as beating nearly every blaziken inherit or other physical attacker. The only things he really loses to are magic bounce mons, magic guard mons, and primordial sea users. There are a few others, but he has a decent chance of beating any given pokemon.
Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
This is one of my new members. He replaces my sheer force Gengar, as that was just really disappointing. I disguise it as Regirock and set up on all the switchins. The sash catches people buy surprise and buys me a lot of opportunities.
Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
This one, inheriting from porygon, is amazing. It muscles past Suicune, which the rest of my team utterly fails to do. The damage is a bit less that I'd like, though. Even at +6 it narrowly misses the Chansey ohko.
Aegislash @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
This is my lead. Inheriting from Shuckle, its moveset is a godsend for my team. sticky web allows all my Pokemon to outspeed otherwise faster mons, allowing for better sweeping. Stealth rock punishes the constant switching caused by Regirocks seeds, and k-off annoys magic bounce chansey switchins. Toxic is to scout for magic bounce, as Aegislash can't get poisoned.
Greninja @ Expert Belt
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Spout
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Origin Pulse
This guy is pretty disappointing, to be honest. I was inspired by the keldeo at the beginning of this thread, but It was banned, so I searched elsewhere. I checked a bunch of sets like scarf! Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and specs Greninja before settling on this one. The damage output is less than I'd like, however, and I often find myself having to thunder mons in hope of paralysis. I am in the process of looking for a replacement.
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Glare
- Gunk Shot/sucker punch (I am constantly switching because I can't decide)
This is my revenge killer, designed to KO all those annoying contrary Pokemon that are sped up by my webs. Glare lets me cripple faster mons that Garchomp can't KO and would otherwise sweep my team. Sucker punch is priority, but is rather weak, while Gunk Shot is mostly because of the honestly terrible coverage options available to Druddigon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-294636489 showcasing my team in a battle
So, thoughts?
On a different note, this is my team. It's done pretty well by me so far.
Regirock @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spore
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Stone Edge
This is my main guy. He walls all 3 atespeeders, countering all of them when they haven't set up. In fact, he beats all of them at +2 (although only Pinsir if I've already spored a mon), as well as beating nearly every blaziken inherit or other physical attacker. The only things he really loses to are magic bounce mons, magic guard mons, and primordial sea users. There are a few others, but he has a decent chance of beating any given pokemon.
Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
This is one of my new members. He replaces my sheer force Gengar, as that was just really disappointing. I disguise it as Regirock and set up on all the switchins. The sash catches people buy surprise and buys me a lot of opportunities.
Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
This one, inheriting from porygon, is amazing. It muscles past Suicune, which the rest of my team utterly fails to do. The damage is a bit less that I'd like, though. Even at +6 it narrowly misses the Chansey ohko.
Aegislash @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
This is my lead. Inheriting from Shuckle, its moveset is a godsend for my team. sticky web allows all my Pokemon to outspeed otherwise faster mons, allowing for better sweeping. Stealth rock punishes the constant switching caused by Regirocks seeds, and k-off annoys magic bounce chansey switchins. Toxic is to scout for magic bounce, as Aegislash can't get poisoned.
Greninja @ Expert Belt
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Spout
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Origin Pulse
This guy is pretty disappointing, to be honest. I was inspired by the keldeo at the beginning of this thread, but It was banned, so I searched elsewhere. I checked a bunch of sets like scarf! Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and specs Greninja before settling on this one. The damage output is less than I'd like, however, and I often find myself having to thunder mons in hope of paralysis. I am in the process of looking for a replacement.
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Glare
- Gunk Shot/sucker punch (I am constantly switching because I can't decide)
This is my revenge killer, designed to KO all those annoying contrary Pokemon that are sped up by my webs. Glare lets me cripple faster mons that Garchomp can't KO and would otherwise sweep my team. Sucker punch is priority, but is rather weak, while Gunk Shot is mostly because of the honestly terrible coverage options available to Druddigon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-294636489 showcasing my team in a battle
So, thoughts?
I'd suggest you try out Mystic Water/Splash Plate for a while and see how it treats you. Most of the time you'll be clicking Water Spout/Origin Pulse anyway, so the increase in neutral damage outweighs the benefits of Expert Belt.
Resisted:
252 SpA Mystic Water Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune in Heavy Rain: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune in Heavy Rain: 138-162 (34.1 - 40%) -- 37.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Neutral:
252 SpA Mystic Water Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 298-352 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 249-294 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Super Effective:
252 SpA Mystic Water Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Heavy Rain: 518-612 (134.5 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Heavy Rain: 521-614 (135.3 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So for Water moves, you'll be seeing about a 10% increase in damage for neutral and resisted targets and only about a 1% decrease in damage for super effective targets. You also seem to be lacking hazard removal, which really hampers Water Spout's effectiveness. If you want to use Primal Weather, I'd recommend either adding a Rapid Spin/Defog user or a Healing Wish user.
Thanks for the idea with the splash plate. I was thinking maybe wise glasses, but that is probably better. The expert belt was for ice beam and thunder, as they were hitting like wet noodles. Also, isn't it 20% increase?
I generally avoid allowing hazards up, or when they are using spore and leech seed to get Greninja in safely. I would add one, but Greninja isn't doing all that much for me anyway. Besides, who can I switch out?
^
Just run choice specs, greninja would much rather have the 50% boost than the ability to switch between moves. Specs also makes it beat stall a lot better, as it lets it 2hko things like spdef cune. It literally FORCES them to switch in their goodra or chansey, and you can bring in something like garchomp. Specs greninja also gaurnttes ohkos a lot of things that mystic water gren doesnt, like bulky mega metagross.
Just run choice specs, greninja would much rather have the 50% boost than the ability to switch between moves. Specs also makes it beat stall a lot better, as it lets it 2hko things like spdef cune. It literally FORCES them to switch in their goodra or chansey, and you can bring in something like garchomp. Specs greninja also gaurnttes ohkos a lot of things that mystic water gren doesnt, like bulky mega metagross.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
The point of not running specs is to bluff specs, often killing would-be rkers and other mons that think they can take advantage of you being choice locked (hi mega altaria).
Lol sorry if my venu traumatised you. Venu-tran combo is even better here than it is in OU where its a very solid core. Here are the sets I ran:
Flygon (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic / u-turn
Celebi (Venusaur-Mega) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed / u-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Giga Drain
Sr and Defog for hazards and control. Venu is a very underrated Mega in this meta as it hits decently hard with no investment and can wall a lot of shit without having to worry about Knock off either. Heatrans spread speed creeps Suicune so you can beat it 1v1 p easily with toxic or you can take u-turn if that floats your boat :)
Ghoul King
quote
verb
Nobody said anything even close to:
"If we ban some things, we'll be heading toward banning too many things! Therefore, we shouldn't ban things."
Yet somehow that is a quote? And if that is just how you are interpreting people's argument, then you are clearly missing the point.
I'm assuming this was your summary of my argument (but I'm not certain because I [/ no one] never actually said this, so bare with me if its not), so I'm going to try explain what I was trying to say in regards to the completely out of context and separate points that you may have been pulling out to form that "quote" of yours.
This is something I said:
"Banning Protean would possibly lead to stall becoming quite dominant and leading to further suspects like inheriting from Mega Sableye."
That plus my later summary against a Protean Ban, could possibly be taken out of context, thrown about, and completely changed to appear like it was written by a simpleton in order to formulate your "quote".
So perhaps I should expand on this so that it is more clear what I'm saying. I'm pretty sure it makes sense if you actually read the rest of my post but apparently not so let me try again.
Basically:
- This meta is currently perfectly balanced with Protean in it, as all play styles have the potential to perform really well and all play styles see a reasonably scaled level of usage. There is no need to make dramatic changes to the meta because it is perfectly fine as it is.
- Small things with little usage that are un fun to play against like Illusion and Chatter we can consider suspecting, but Protean is a commonly used, important and fun part of balanced meta.
- If we ban Protean, it will have a massive influence on the meta and throw out the balance, because Protean plays a large role in keeping Stall in check by forcing it to run at least one dedicated check.
- However there are other options to break Stall, only certain few things require dedicated specific checks rather than blanket checks, so opening up another team slot will likely make Stall a lot more powerful and possibly centralising.
- This in turn could lead to the suspect of common stall mons or strategies like Inheriting from Mega Sableye as an example.
- This chain of suspects and bans makes the meta very unstable, as well as harder to maintain interest in or get into.
- But the thing is. Protean in not broken, it is not uncompetitive, and it isn't even that centralising, in what is currently a meta far more balanced than most. Inheriting from Mega Sableye is even less so, but could potentially be suspected if Protean goes and throws out the meta unnecessarily.
- There is no point in banning Protean, it doesn't need to go and there could possibly be a negative impact on the meta if it goes.
I guess the best way to put it is this.
I'm not saying any of this is guaranteed to happen. But this metagame is very balanced and Protean isn't stopping that. Removing a big part of a balanced meta is more likely to make the meta unstable than more balanced. An unstable meta is far harder to get into and maintain interest in. We have a lot more to lose from banning Protean than we do to gain.
Our meta is balanced. We need to stop Suspecting things just for the sake of Suspecting things.
"If we ban some things, we'll be heading toward banning too many things! Therefore, we shouldn't ban things."
I'm not saying we shouldn't ban things. I'm saying we shouldn't bans things that have no reason to be banned, when doing so could potentially make the meta unstable and out of balance. Which would in turn make the meta less appealing to players of a certain style, harder for new players to learn, understand and keep up with, and less interesting to people who liked the meta how it is, destroying our player base.
Don't ban Protean.
quote
verb
- repeat or copy out (words from a text or speech written or spoken by another person).
Nobody said anything even close to:
"If we ban some things, we'll be heading toward banning too many things! Therefore, we shouldn't ban things."
Yet somehow that is a quote? And if that is just how you are interpreting people's argument, then you are clearly missing the point.
I'm assuming this was your summary of my argument (but I'm not certain because I [/ no one] never actually said this, so bare with me if its not), so I'm going to try explain what I was trying to say in regards to the completely out of context and separate points that you may have been pulling out to form that "quote" of yours.
This is something I said:
"Banning Protean would possibly lead to stall becoming quite dominant and leading to further suspects like inheriting from Mega Sableye."
That plus my later summary against a Protean Ban, could possibly be taken out of context, thrown about, and completely changed to appear like it was written by a simpleton in order to formulate your "quote".
So perhaps I should expand on this so that it is more clear what I'm saying. I'm pretty sure it makes sense if you actually read the rest of my post but apparently not so let me try again.
Basically:
- This meta is currently perfectly balanced with Protean in it, as all play styles have the potential to perform really well and all play styles see a reasonably scaled level of usage. There is no need to make dramatic changes to the meta because it is perfectly fine as it is.
- Small things with little usage that are un fun to play against like Illusion and Chatter we can consider suspecting, but Protean is a commonly used, important and fun part of balanced meta.
- If we ban Protean, it will have a massive influence on the meta and throw out the balance, because Protean plays a large role in keeping Stall in check by forcing it to run at least one dedicated check.
- However there are other options to break Stall, only certain few things require dedicated specific checks rather than blanket checks, so opening up another team slot will likely make Stall a lot more powerful and possibly centralising.
- This in turn could lead to the suspect of common stall mons or strategies like Inheriting from Mega Sableye as an example.
- This chain of suspects and bans makes the meta very unstable, as well as harder to maintain interest in or get into.
- But the thing is. Protean in not broken, it is not uncompetitive, and it isn't even that centralising, in what is currently a meta far more balanced than most. Inheriting from Mega Sableye is even less so, but could potentially be suspected if Protean goes and throws out the meta unnecessarily.
- There is no point in banning Protean, it doesn't need to go and there could possibly be a negative impact on the meta if it goes.
I guess the best way to put it is this.
I'm not saying any of this is guaranteed to happen. But this metagame is very balanced and Protean isn't stopping that. Removing a big part of a balanced meta is more likely to make the meta unstable than more balanced. An unstable meta is far harder to get into and maintain interest in. We have a lot more to lose from banning Protean than we do to gain.
Our meta is balanced. We need to stop Suspecting things just for the sake of Suspecting things.
"If we ban some things, we'll be heading toward banning too many things! Therefore, we shouldn't ban things."
I'm not saying we shouldn't ban things. I'm saying we shouldn't bans things that have no reason to be banned, when doing so could potentially make the meta unstable and out of balance. Which would in turn make the meta less appealing to players of a certain style, harder for new players to learn, understand and keep up with, and less interesting to people who liked the meta how it is, destroying our player base.
Don't ban Protean.
Snaquaza do you think you could edit the front page of this thread to include the viability rankings? Most other metas that have VR usually make a post dedicated to it right after the first post or include it in the original post. I just think it would be more convenient for newer players so they don't have to search through the thread looking for it - if they know it exists at all (and i also lost track of the VR and am too lazy to look back, top kek)
Also it would be nice if you could update the front page so it lists the new bans like chatter (and hopefully illusion).
EDIT: The Immortal I have uncovered a bug Ditto cannot run imposter, pls fix
Also it would be nice if you could update the front page so it lists the new bans like chatter (and hopefully illusion).
EDIT: The Immortal I have uncovered a bug Ditto cannot run imposter, pls fix
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It's there yo: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/inheritance-omotm.3529252/page-73#post-6511489
Also running nasty plot on an illusion mon isn't really clever as you reveal the illusion before even getting a hit. You plotted on the switchin, great, now the opp just goes into goodra / suicune and you can't touch him for shit.
Also, eq on greninja can nab you a surprise ko on a heatran switchin, even uninvested.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-295014129
Is this mindset common? I mean, I probably didn't help matters, but...
Is this mindset common? I mean, I probably didn't help matters, but...
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Alternatively, I could've paraphrased as "We shouldn't ban things so we won't ban too many things", or some other variation on the idea, but yes, this is pretty much exactly what Chopin said: "We shouldn't ban things, because we might end up banning too many things."
It's bad logic. We shouldn't be afraid to ban things for fear of banning too many things. Full stop.
No thread has ever considered it acceptable to say "We may end up chain-banning things as a consequence of this ban, so we shouldn't do it", either, so the rest of your post is kind of irrelevant.
All right, lemme lay out the full logic here.
If you remove Illusion from the equation, you are missing some information, but you can make reasonable inferences based on the information you do have available. Ignoring Protean as well, Alakazam is going to be a Special attacker that prefers Psychic moves, and it's going to avoid stall-y sets that rely on bulk because it can't pull them off. (And if it tries one, well, there you go, you have the advantage) Any non-Psychic move is coverage, not its primary attack, and Physical moves are sub-optimal. (Albeit it's conceivable an Alakazam set might appreciate something like Focus Punch for Chansey, like in Gen III) This in turn tells you a lot of things: it probably doesn't have priority, and if it does have priority that's actually worth commentary, that priority is Vacuum Wave, as it's either that or Prankster Nature Power off of Whimsicott.
So you can be confident that Special walls, particularly those immune to Psyshock/Psystrike are reasonable effective against Alakazam builds. (If it's running Secret Sword, that means it's running Keldeo, which gives it no proper STAB, among other problems) You also know its Speed tier: skipping over the question of Mega Alakazam for the moment, you know for a fact what can and cannot outspeed it on your team, barring Scarf, and if it's Scarfed then you will learn that and know that it's limited and going to switch a lot.
You know that Alakazam takes tremendous damage from Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, and only the latter cares all that much about questions of build. (eg Vacuum Wave Alakazam, particularly backed by Nasty Plot, could potentially defeat a Sucker Punch-based counter unexpectedly)
You know that Alakazam is too fragile to put up a Substitute capable of tanking a Seismic Toss/Night Shade.
You know that its Special bulk is actually decent, so you might want to avoid focusing too much on that.
You also will be tipped off to a lot of specific builds instantly: if it's GeoZam, the Fairy Aura is a blatant signal. If it's some kind of Mold Breaker build, you'll be warned of that too. If somebody decides Primordial Sea Alakazam has a niche, you'll be forewarned.
You won't, at first glance, know what Alakazam's item is (Unless it announces itself, like Air Balloon), you won't necessarily know what Ability it has (Again, unless it announces itself), and you won't know its exact four moves, but you can eliminate vast swathes of possibilities by virtue of them being so sub-optimal that if the opponent is doing one of them making a mistake based on "Well, actually it is a Physical Alakazam" is likely irrelevant and easily recovered from, and the terribleness of the build in turn exploited.
Then we add Illusion in.
Now, you know nothing about what Alakazam is. You have only the certainty that the Alakazam in front of you has to be one of the six members you can see on the enemy team, which is fairly limited in utility if they haven't done something silly like make a mono-Psychic-Special-Attacker team.
Now, your decision-making process can go one of two ways, as I laid out before.
In the first scenario, you assume everything is non-Illusion until you hit a blatant Illusion. (eg Gengar using Knock Off to OHKO a bulky mon well outside of Gengar's ability to Knock Off to death) In this case, Illusion is basically uncompetitive bullshit you are incapable of accounting for and doing anything about until after it has likely cost you a Pokemon. "Virtually guaranteed to KO at least one enemy team member" is not an acceptable trait in Smogon metas.
In the second scenario is that you assume anything and everything is Illusion until proven otherwise. You know what that decision-making process looks like? Honestly, it's basically random: again, unless the enemy team has a sharp bias in its team design, any decision can be the wrong decision because fuck you the thing in front of you is an Illusion, and conversely you making a decision on the possibility that it's an Illusion can be the wrong decision because it isn't.
No RNG steps in to feed you misses and unexpected Burns, but player skill is largely ripped out of the equation, because players are incapable of making even marginally informed decisions. It's indistinguishable from "randomness caused by dice programs". It only gets worse if both sides have Illusions up: they're both making completely mis-informed decisions, with no ability to predict or account for their opponent's actions because they have no information.
It's functionally random. Bye-bye player skill, same as any match decided by crits or misses or lucky Burns.
Note, in particular, that the first definition you've provided -success or failure brought about by something other than one's actions (choices, in this case)- applies fully to having Illusion a part of Inheritance. You don't succeed or fail based on doing your best while your opponent does their best and failure on your part reflects a poor decision-making process, whether at the team level or at the match level: you succeed or fail based on how your decision-making process happens to coincide with or diverge from the Illusion's impact on the situation. If you make decision A and it happens to work in spite of the Pokemon you're facing being completely different from what you thought it was, that's luck. If you make decision B, and it happens to fail because the Pokemon you're facing is not what you thought it was, with zero ability to anticipate the possibility in a meaningful way, that's luck.
I haven't seen it much, but regardless, don't let the scrubs get you down. If they hate stall so much (or don't have the time to play against it), maybe they should learn the meta and run some appropriate stallbreakers (Taunt/Encore, Guts, mixed attackers, miscellaneous offensive lures -- for those of you wondering. Cress, Suicune, Doublade/Aegislash, Levitran, and Goodra are the stat benchmarks. Also, BD Mega Gyarados).
If you're running a Shuckle lead set, might I make a suggestion that's served me well? That Custap Aegislash seems slightly underwhelming, even with its stats + typing.
Weavile / Greninja @ Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Encore
Greninja and Weavile are the users of choice because of their STAB Knock Off and very high speed; I prefer Greninja for my team, in part because it's not as often used as a lead, but it's up to you. Sticky Web and Stealth Rock are self-explanatory.
Red Card, in conjunction with Sturdy, lets you safely put up hazards without having to worry about being set up on; imagine setting up a Dragon Dance, attacking into this, and having your Gengar phazed in to get eaten alive by Knock Off -- that's the dream situation, but so long as they aren't switched into a Magic Bouncer, it's great utility.
Encore is an extremely good move, whose many possible functions I struggle to list. At this set's speed tier, it's usually able to lock an opponent into a move that they do not wish to be locked into; you can either hit the switch-in with Knock Off (especially good if you haven't already revealed the move) or just switch in something that can set up on the move they're locked into.
A lot of the time, it's not even a suicide lead -- both Encore and Red Card are fantastic tools to save for the mid-game so that this set can contribute against teams of all stripes.
It is very rare to be outsped by surprise and get stuck with a nulled Encore, but be aware of the possibility. If your Sturdy is broken by something like a status move or entry hazards, Red Card won't activate if you get KOed.