Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion

[McMeghan]

The Gengarite left us one week ago and now is time to discuss another controversial Item of the XY OU metagame: The Kangashkanite.

As you guys can guess, this is where discussion on the tiering status of the Kangaskhanite will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that the Kangashkanite should be Uber or OU. This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion.

As a reminder: if a ban does occur after this discussion, it'll be effective in both Pre-Bank and Pokebank OU.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

I'll just repost my thoughts here

Alright so I feel like this one could actually use more time, even though I'm leaning Uber. I understand the arguments that have been made on irc and such but I feel there is still adaption that could happen to the meta, meaning I don't find Kanga strategically limiting. It seems to me that people haven't been running all that they could to stop Kanga that would still be relevant in the metagame and thats pretty much THE reason I feel Kanga can wait for Round 1. I expect better players to ladder when Suspect starts and that, along with SPL, is when this adaption would happen. It's easier to make this decision in a better environment.

How did Kanga get put up to the chopping block before Mega Lucario?

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PEOPLE POST IN PR INSTEAD, WE ALL KNOW THIS THREAD IS GOING TO HELL

 

[ryan]

Flashback to jump's Uber thread

How easily a pokemon a can sweep a team in common battle conditions with little to no risk to itself or its team.

Mega Kangaskhan has a disgustingly high sheer damage output because of its ability, Parental Bond. Having a virtual Choice Band boost without the restriction of being locked into a move is insane for most Pokemon, but applying this to a Pokemon with base 125 Attack and base 100 Speed is absurd. Of course, this is ignoring a lot of factors that push it overboard for me. The most obvious one is Power-Up Punch. Having an un-Taunt-able Swords Dance boost that provides chip damage is phenomenal, and the move gives Mega Kangaskhan the opportunity to come in on weakened foes and finish them off while also boosting its Attack. What's worse is Mega Kangaskhan's fantastic bulk for an offensive Pokemon that even allows it to run a defensive set if it so chooses. Nearly unresisted priority and STAB help it muscle through both offensive and defensive checks as well. There is no risk to running Kangaskhan on a team; it is incredibly self-sustaining because of its great bulk and has very few reliable checks in the OU metagame.

Capable of sweeping standard in common battle conditions with one turn of set up or less.

No one will argue with the fact that setting up for a sweep is incredibly easy. Sometimes it does take two or three turns to set up, but almost every time, one turn cuts it. All it takes is a free switch and sufficiently weakened checks, and you're good to go. The fact that Kangaskhan deals damage while it sweeps also greatly compensates for the extra turns that are sometimes necessary in order to sweep. In some cases, you can just continue to spam Power-Up Punch and kill the opponent because it's really hard to OHKO without a super effective attack.

Mega Kangaskhan is pretty clearly an Uber. I know most of what I just posted has been said before, but it's still nice to write it down. The only really good check to Mega Kangaskhan is playing incredibly carefully around it and building a team where the majority of its members can either prevent it from sweeping or outright KO it. Now let's ban this thing so that we can get rid of Mega Lucario please.

 

[Fireburn]

Mega Kangaskhan is far too strong for OU. Here are the main reasons why I believe so:

• Mega Khan has too much Raw Power - Factoring in Parental Bond, Mega Kangaskhan has the rough equivalent of 213 base Attack, along with the innate ability to break Sturdy and Substitutes for free. It has the ability to boost it further with Power-Up Punch, a move incredibly deadly in the hands of Mega Khan that is essentially unTauntable Swords Dance that gives it free coverage against things that could otherwise maybe take a hit (Tyranitar, Heatran, Terrakion switches). I know calcs have already been done, but basically nothing is beating Mega Kangaskhan at +2 aside from Sableye, the only thing that can claim to semireliably beat Mega Khan (and even then Khan can threaten to 2HKO with EQ or wear it down with Crunch). +2 Return shatters basically every wall in OU that isn't a Ghost (slower Steels and Rocks are just fodder for boosting with PuP). Khan even has the option of not Mega Evolving immediately to get a +1 against things like Gourgeist-Super, who isn't going to like Crunch unless it is at close to 100%. Anything that isn't Ghost-type or something like Skarmory is not going to take an unboosted attack from Khan, period, and at +2 it OHKOes almost all of OU. That is insane.
• Mega Khan is too difficult to Revenge Kill - Some claim Mega Khan is slow or easily revenge killed due to its lack of resistances, but this is far from the truth. Firstly, 100 base Speed is by no means slow, allowing it get by all relevant defensive Pokemon and even more offensive ones like Landorus-T. Not only that, Mega Khan has access to strong priority in the form of Sucker Punch, which will destroy basically anything that can outspeed it like Starmie, Noivern, Greninja, Lati@s, the Genies, etc. Not even things like Sub Gengar or Sash Alakazam are safe thanks to Parental Bond. Furthermore, Khan has impressive 105/100/100 defenses, which means nothing short of a STAB Fighting attack is taking it out in one hit. Khan's offensive checks, therefore, are limited to faster Fighting-types Mega Lucario, Terrakion, and Keldeo, and even they can be picked off by +2 Khan once worn down to half HP. Anything else just dies.
• Mega Khan is too restrictive to team-building - Mega Khan necessitates the use of 2-3 checks out of the very small pool of checks it does have just to make sure you can beat it, given its ability to pick and choose its counters (or rather, what counters it more). Just one check is not enough, given MKhan's ability to wear down its own checks with its sheer power. Offensive teams are forced to run 2-3 faster Dark resists just so they won't get murdered by +2 Sucker Punch. Defensive teams have to use Sableye or bulky Rocky Helmet Garchomp/Ferrothorn as Mega Khan crushes every other wall, even sturdy ones like Hippowdon. This stifles the development of both types of teams terribly when you must dedicate half your team to Pokemon that can check Mega Khan just to have a good chance at beating it.
• Mega Khan has negligible opportunity cost - There is basically no downside to using Mega Khan. It is a sweeper, a revenge killer, a wallbreaker, and a soft-check to everything with its great stats, and it does it better in one set with minor move adjustments than most Pokemon do in a specialized role. It is low-risk, huge-reward in a way not even things like Mega Lucario can boast. Every Pokemon in OU should have some downside, or cost, to using it, and Mega Khan has none.

No other Pokemon in OU is as stupendously outrageous as Mega Khan. Read Halcyon's post if you're still not convinced as he makes some great points everyone should be aware of.

tl;dr:

 

[jas61292]

So, personally, I'm with TFC on this one in that I think we need to give Kanga more time in OU. I feel there is still a lot of potential for Pokemon to do well against this thing among guys who are not seeing a ton of use yet. I personally love Gourgeist against this, and I have a feeling there are probably more as well, and that we simply have not given ourselves enough time to adapt and try and locate other such Pokemon. With that said, I would also like to try and make counter points to a couple of the pro ban arguments being thrown around:

Too Powerful: Well, honestly, I think this one is just an ill founded argument to begin with. In all honesty, simply saying "Black Kyurem" should really put any "Too Powerful" arguments to rest after last gen. Yes, I know Kanga's "effective" attack is higher, but Kyu-B has a higher power STAB putting it at almost the exact same power level, and still having item access. Oh, and by the way, it also can ignore Sturdy. Yes, I know Outrage has drawbacks and Kyu-B has a ton of other problems, but that is not the point. The point is that sheer power of this magnitude has precedence in OU, and that alone is simply not enough to merit uber placement.

Restrictive to Teambuilding: First off, I simply don't think this is true. I think the Pokemon who can do well against it are good enough and plentiful enough to not really be restrictive. Packing one or two counters sounds bad, but in reality its really not. Pokemon are good because of what they beat, and I personally feel that enough Pokemon that can take on Kanga can also take on enough other Pokemon too to earn teamslots regularly. However, with that said, one of the key points people are bringing up is not just the quality of what beats it, but the fact that it can choose what beats it. That right there is again something I think is a flawed argument. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "chooses its counters" argument was one I remember being thrown around a lot regarding one suspect last gen. Keldeo. Who was voted OU. Twice. Now, that is not to say that the ability to choose your counters is not something really powerful, but again, I think it is the kind of thing people are trying to trow around to claim something is obviously broken, when we have precedent that obviously says otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I can definitely see the arguments in favor of banning. Kanga is strong as fuck and has many of the right moves to take advantage of all it has. I just personally feel that the pro-ban arguments have enough flaws in them for us to wait a while longer and really let the metagame develop a bit more around it before we make that call.

 

[Fireburn]

Too Powerful: Well, honestly, I think this one is just an ill founded argument to begin with. In all honesty, simply saying "Black Kyurem" should really put any "Too Powerful" arguments to rest after last gen. Yes, I know Kanga's "effective" attack is higher, but Kyu-B has a higher power STAB putting it at almost the exact same power level, and still having item access. Oh, and by the way, it also can ignore Sturdy. Yes, I know Outrage has drawbacks and Kyu-B has a ton of other problems, but that is not the point. The point is that sheer power of this magnitude has precedence in OU, and that alone is simply not enough to merit uber placement.

Can Kyurem-B maintain that level of power while being able to switch moves? Can it quickly and easily boost its Attack stat to become even stronger (Hone Claws doesn't count because it sucks on Kyu-B)? Does it get priority to take care of nearly anything faster than it? Is Kanga burdened by common weaknesses that hinder its otherwise awesome bulk? Sure, Kyu-B might be able to match Kanga with Outrage, but Outrage is quite frankly a terrible horrible move to use in a metagame with Aegislash and Fairies and crap running around everywhere to ruin your day, so saying "Kyu-B has a stronger STAB" is honestly a worthless argument since it is forced to rely on weaker means of attacking (namely, using weaker STAB DClaw and running Special attacks) to kill things. Kanga can OHKO Hippowdon with a physical move by just getting to +2 (which is super easy since Kanga is bulky and its sheer threat presence forces you to react certain ways) without the help of an item. Kangaskhan is on an entirely different power level than Kyurem-B ever was. What does that say about the rest of OU?

Restrictive to Teambuilding: First off, I simply don't think this is true. I think the Pokemon who can do well against it are good enough and plentiful enough to not really be restrictive. Packing one or two counters sounds bad, but in reality its really not. Pokemon are good because of what they beat, and I personally feel that enough Pokemon that can take on Kanga can also take on enough other Pokemon too to earn teamslots regularly. However, with that said, one of the key points people are bringing up is not just the quality of what beats it, but the fact that it can choose what beats it. That right there is again something I think is a flawed argument. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "chooses its counters" argument was one I remember being thrown around a lot regarding one suspect last gen. Keldeo. Who was voted OU. Twice. Now, that is not to say that the ability to choose your counters is not something really powerful, but again, I think it is the kind of thing people are trying to trow around to claim something is obviously broken, when we have precedent that obviously says otherwise.

Do you know what Kangaskhan has to sacrifice to beat its counters? A single moveslot. Keldeo often had to mess with its item choice (Specs, EBelt, LO) or one of three different Hidden Powers or using stuff like Calm Mind or Substitute since it arguably had (and has) a much wider pool of counters. The choice for Kanga literally boils down to "Do I use Crunch or Fire Punch in the last moveslot?" (Sucker Punch does not trigger KS if you are scared of Aegislash and Sableye is extremely easy to check so really Kanga doesn't even NEED Earthquake). And even, Kanga is not choosing "what counters it" but rather "what counters it more" - +2 Crunch is a 2HKO on Skarmory, both moves wreck Aegislash and 2HKO Gourgeist-Super unboosted (you might need like 10% prior damage if you get bad rolls but Gourgeist does not have reliable recovery so that is not hard at all, and if Kanga is already +2 Gourgeist is done for), Heatran is setup bait for PuP (and Crunch does a ton since Steels don't resist Dark anymore!).

Keldeo has several counters and multiple revenge killers/checks. Kangaskhan has ONE sort of counter (Sableye) and basically no checks aside from faster Fighting-types (which fail if they are taken below half because then +2 Sucker Punch kills) and spamming Rocky Helmet on everything, and of those things that run Rocky Helmet, all of them have better items to run aside from bulky Garchomp. And Garchomp is usually going to die in the process of trying to tango with Khan if it's not already in KO range for Sucker Punch.

What "good checks" are we dealing with here again?

I just personally feel that the pro-ban arguments have enough flaws in them for us to wait a while longer and really let the metagame develop a bit more around it before we make that call.

I could say the same thing about the anti-ban arguments tbqh. I know that you like erring on the side of restraint and I totally respect that, but I really would like to know what your standards are if you can look at Mega Kangaskhan and not immediately think "this thing is one bad mutha" considering all the things it has (bulk, speed, priority, only one weakness, a great boosting move, 200+ effective base Attack). No other single Pokemon in OU (not even Mega Lucario) can boast all these things in one Pokemon with one moveset. That is not okay.

 

[jas61292]

Sure, Kyu-B might be able to match Kanga with Outrage, but Outrage is quite frankly a terrible horrible move to use in a metagame with Aegislash and Fairies and crap running around everywhere to ruin your day, so saying "Kyu-B has a stronger STAB" is honestly a worthless argument since it is forced to rely on weaker means of attacking (namely, using weaker STAB DClaw and running Special attacks) to kill things.

Well, first off, I just want to say that I was referring to gen 5 Kyu-B, for the precedent it shows of not simply banning something because of the power it posseses. Gen 6 Kyu-B is a different deal altogether, and one which I personally refuse to even comment on, cause, for all we know at this point it now gets Icicle Crash and Close Combat. Either way though, the comments on Kyu-B are solely related to power. Yes, Kanga has other things like you mentioned. I don't deny that. I am simply saying that power itself is not really a reason to ban things. Its how it effects the metagame, and simply listing calcs of all the things it can beat is not, and never really has been a good measure of if something is broken.

As for the other stuff, again, I'm not saying that Kanga does not have a ton going for it. I was simply attacking one section of an argument. Frankly to me the fact that it only has to change one move is kinda irrelevant since it is still changing, which is the important part. Regardless though, it was that part of the argument I was looking at, not that plus other stuff.

And basically, as far as good checks, I think the point is exactly in what TFC said above: "It seems to me that people haven't been running all that they could to stop Kanga that would still be relevant in the metagame....I expect better players to ladder when Suspect starts and that...is when this adaption would happen. It's easier to make this decision in a better environment." Or, in other words, I really can't necessarily say at this point because we have not really had the time or effort put into it to really figure it out.

(Also, for the record, 252/252+ Gourgeist-S is only 2HKOd ~20% of the time by Adamant Kanga Crunch [though what that is with the factored in chance of Def drops I have no idea] so that is a significant risk for Kanga to stay in against, even if it predicted and Crunched on the switch as it is risking a burn.)

EDIT @ Treecko: It seems we are using practically the same calc for different purposes. Personally, though, I don't think it makes sense to talk about how it might KO, after rocks, if and only if it predicted the switch and used the only one out of the four of its moves that the Pokemon is not immune to. Rather, I see the fact that it needs to predict, and even then can't nab a guaranteed 2HKO as a win for the opposing Pokemon. Also, for what its worth, without Stealth Rock, Jolly will never 2HKO and Adamant will only do so 21% of the time. Either way though, this is just one calc and not exactly relevant in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm not sure how relevant this thread will be considering how dead PR was even before it became a tiny little notice under UT but I have some things I want to say.

I'll just repost my thoughts here

I completely disagree TheFourthChaser-- because I have played multiples of the absolute best Kangaskhan checks and still gotten beat by it (never mind getting beat by the many OTHER threats I couldn't cover because I was over compensating for Kang). Even running Impish MAX investment Skarmory + Keldeo or Mega Luke on every team (So Skarm + Tough Fighting Type), I've still had games where I would be winning 5-1 or 6-2 and wondering whether or not I would be able to kill Kangaskhan in the end (and I've lost many of said games).

I really wish I kept the log, but I even had one game against a 1500 player using Articuno, Electross, and Druddigon (all of whom died without doing much of anything), winning 5-2 that I came THIS close to losing (it literally came down to a damage roll) because of an unexpected endeavor sacrifice that lead to Kangaskan getting a free Power Up Punch as he revenge killed my weakened Pokemon.

I have posted regarding all the best checks and "counters" about Kang, and all of them are losing strategies.

 

[ryan]

Well, first off, I just want to say that I was referring to gen 5 Kyu-B, for the precedent it shows of not simply banning something because of the power it posseses. Gen 6 Kyu-B is a different deal altogether, and one which I personally refuse to even comment on, cause, for all we know at this point it now gets Icicle Crash and Close Combat. Either way though, the comments on Kyu-B are solely related to power. Yes, Kanga has other things like you mentioned. I don't deny that. I am simply saying that power itself is not really a reason to ban things. Its how it effects the metagame, and simply listing calcs of all the things it can beat is not, and never really has been a good measure of if something is broken.

As for the other stuff, again, I'm not saying that Kanga does not have a ton going for it. I was simply attacking one section of an argument. Frankly to me the fact that it only has to change one move is kinda irrelevant since it is still changing, which is the important part. Regardless though, it was that part of the argument I was looking at, not that plus other stuff.

And basically, as far as good checks, I think the point is exactly in what TFC said above: "It seems to me that people haven't been running all that they could to stop Kanga that would still be relevant in the metagame....I expect better players to ladder when Suspect starts and that...is when this adaption would happen. It's easier to make this decision in a better environment." Or, in other words, I really can't necessarily say at this point because we have not really had the time or effort put into it to really figure it out.

(Also, for the record, 252/252+ Gourgeist-S is only 2HKOd ~20% of the time by Adamant Kanga Crunch [though what that is with the factored in chance of Def drops I have no idea] so that is a significant risk for Kanga to stay in against, even if it predicted and Crunched on the switch as it is risking a burn.)

There's no reason to attack a part of an argument that is only one of the many reasons why Mega Kangaskhan is broken without addressing the other ones. There's a shitload that Mega Kangaskhan has going for it over Kyurem-Black. It's quite simply a far better Pokemon. The fact that it's choosing between Crunch and Fire Punch is also mostly irrelevant, as Crunch is plenty good enough without creating many more checks for it. No, Mega Kangaskhan cannot beat all 700+ Pokemon in the game on its own, but if only a handful of them reliably check it, (not even outright counter it considering its only good counter, Sableye, isn't that hard to take down by other means), then we've got kind of a big problem on our hands.

Also, on the Gourgeist thing:

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Best part about this for the Kangaskhan user is that they don't -have- to stay in. Forcing it out after it does around 50% is plenty sufficiently weakened for it to be beaten reliably later on, considering that it has no reliable recovery. Keep in mind that the above calc is also Jolly Mega Kangaskhan. If for some reason they don't have Leftovers, it's a 98% chance to 2HKO.

I get wanting to err on the side of caution with Pre-Pokebank bans. Maybe that's just something we'll never agree on, and if so, that's ok. In other cases, I might (and probably would) agree with you, but for the case of Mega Kangaskhan, I just don't think waiting is necessary—or even possibly beneficial.

 

[Shurtugal]

I'm going to repeat what I had said earlier:

I think one fact is indisputable in Kang's case: when Kangashkan isn't the Win Condition, it's setting up the next one. Kangs is a Pokemon that has enough coverage to make it's 100% counter base quite small (Garchomp and Hippodown with Rocky Helmet, and even then those are shaky), and while it can essentially be taken down, it is almost next to near impossible to do unless Kangs comes out early-game, and if it comes out early, it will most likely bring down enough Pokemon to make the next Win Condition a guaranteed thing. Kangs has bulk like I have never seen before, as it can live many hits and it has one of the best speed tiers a Pokemon like Kangs could ask for. Kang's needs little to no support and can often sweep teams on it's own.

Gengarite got banned for "helping support other Pokemon to sweep." Well, I think Kang's can fit this role and also another one: "it can sweep with little to no support." I mean, this thing can OHKO Landorus-T (or do about 80% depending on what spread you run) but holy cow Landorus-T is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier for Arceus' sake! It has all the right coverage moves to whittle down the majority of it's check base as well.

Kang's might not even have been broken if it weren't for Sucker Punch buff and Scrappy. It's almost impossible to handle since there really isn't anything reliable you can use (in terms of OU mons. I am not factoring undertier mons like Cogaf, which I still think is considered a check and not a counter). It has one of the best move pools you could ask for. There is no sound reason in my eyes why Kangs should maintain a place in OU when it's clearly broken.

I don't think waiting is the answer in this case because Pokebank users have already seen it's effects it will have on the metagame in it's current condition. Unless we plan on banning something else (Lucario is one of the better "checks" to Kangs, and if we banned that...) I don't think we should consider it at all.

Please ban Kangs. There is no reason to prolong this.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I'm starting to lean towards wanting her banned, as I see her as an overwhelming force...but I have my doubts. We have to remember that it is still early Gen 6 and the meta is quite a bit different than the previous two gens...X and Y haven't been out for too long yet and quite honestly I think the newer Smogon players would greatly benefit from participating in Suspect Testing.

I'd personally want to wait for Pokebank because things like Infernape may shift some things around. I'm particularly interested in seeing December's statistics at the end of the month and usage by top players. This whole thing may just be overhyped, I'm not sure.

Her power is pretty great, breaks subs, chews bubblegum, and she does gain 200 damage Seismic Toss post Bank, but if we ban her too early it'll be even more complicated to unban her later if she really isn't as powerful post Bank. Seeing as Smogon is supposed to be the ultimate place for competitive 'mons, if we preemptively ban something and want to change it soon after... That may make us seem indecisive and may weaken our rep.

 

[Fireburn]

I'm starting to lean towards wanting her banned, as I see her as an overwhelming force...but I have my doubts. We have to remember that it is still early Gen 6 and the meta is quite a bit different than the previous two gens...X and Y haven't been out for too long yet and quite honestly I think the newer Smogon players would greatly benefit from participating in Suspect Testing.

I'd personally want to wait for Pokebank because things like Infernape may shift some things around. I'm particularly interested in seeing December's statistics at the end of the month and usage by top players. This whole thing may just be overhyped, I'm not sure.

Her power is pretty great, breaks subs, chews bubblegum, and she does gain 200 damage Seismic Toss post Bank, but if we ban her too early it'll be even more complicated to unban her later if she really isn't as powerful post Bank. Seeing as Smogon is supposed to be the ultimate place for competitive 'mons, if we preemptively ban something and want to change it soon after... That may make us seem indecisive and may weaken our rep.

We have a way to see if Kang will be broken post Pokebank. It's called the Pokebank OU ladder, and not only is MKhan isn't any more manageable there, most of the arguments for banning MKhan take into account Pokebank "checks" like Infernape, Terrakion, and Keldeo... and they've already been shown to not be enough. Waiting until Pokebank comes out is totally irrelevant to this discussion and only wastes time/resources that can be better spent on testing more worthy, borderline suspects.

Furthermore, I can assure you if MKhan is banned, no one is going to want to change it. It is one of the most broken things to ever spit upon the face of OU. Even if something cosmically drastic happens in Pokemon Z or whatever is next, unbanning Khan for a retest is honestly not the end of the world - it's not the first time we've retested something if old Gen 4 Suspect Tests are any indication. This will not affect our "credibility" (what does this even mean in this context lol) in the slightest, so this hardly a concern.

Keeping MKhan unbanned because "it would benefit new users to participate in a suspect test" is, to be frank, a freaking stupid reason to not ban it. Not only does this argument totally ignore the effects Khan is having on the metagame right now (which is the real question here in determining whether or not it will be banned), its completely ignoring the massive administrative time/resources it takes to run a suspect test, and as is probably obvious it would not be a good idea to waste time and energy testing something that is obviously overpowered, which is what a quickban is trying to avoid. After all, it's not as if there will be a shortage of suspect tests for new users to participate in!

Basically, if you're going to argue that MKhan is not worthy of a quickban, you need to consider the effect it is having on the metagame right now and somehow argue effectively that it is not detrimental to the metagame or breaking the tier. If you cannot effectively argue this (which no one so far has), please get on the quickban train and save your valuable time and energy for the actual suspects.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I have been playing in the Pokebank OU and I have not seen as many MKhans as I'd expect to my surprise (I have been seeing a lot of MCarios though).

The official OU metagame right now is pre-bank, so more people are going to be playing that at the moment... Sometimes one must ask if something is both healthy for the metagame and healthy for the community as a whole. I simply think that a Suspect Test is a great way to show all of these new, impressionable users what we are capable of. I know its the political way of handling things, but let me ask you what the general opinion of Smogon is right now and how may we improve upon it?

I personally like it when people can prove their prowess in battle moreso than on forums. But when there's a suspect test there's the best of both worlds.

 

[Fireburn]

The official OU metagame right now is pre-bank, so more people are going to be playing that at the moment... Sometimes one must ask if something is both healthy for the metagame and healthy for the community as a whole. I simply think that a Suspect Test is a great way to show all of these new, impressionable users what we are capable of. I know its the political way of handling things, but let me ask you what the general opinion of Smogon is right now and how may we improve upon it?

Considering the general UT discussion thread was just locked and there hasn't been a single good defense for keeping Khan around in 72 pages of discussion thread, I'd say Smogon is ready to give this thing the boot and not look back.

You are honestly missing the entire point of a suspect test. Suspects tests are meant to help the community make a decision on a Pokemon that is borderline but possibly not broken after the metagame has developed somewhat. Quickbans are meant to remove obviously broken Pokemon that are clearly inhibiting the development of a balanced metagame. In effect, Quickbans are simply an extension of the initial banlist - if a Pokemon is banned by quickban, that is saying that it really deserved to be banned initially and that it would be doubtlessly banned in a suspect test. Mega Kangaskhan clearly falls under the latter category, and if you can't see that please read other posts by myself, Treecko, Shurtugal, Halcyon, or 80% of the posts in the UT thread. The time and energy required to conduct a Suspect test for an obviously broken Pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan serves nothing but wasting the time and energy of the tiering leaders and the community as a whole.

There will be plenty of suspect tests in Gen VI, I assure you. Right after we boot the super broken crap out.

 

[alexwolf]

The question that i ask to myself when trying to decide if Mega Kanga should be quick banned or not is: Is there any chance that Mega Kanga won't get banned if it gets a suspect test? The answer to this question is a definite no, so there is no reason not to go for a quickban. Saving time is very useful when we have so much more stuff that need our attention.

 

[Okuu]

There are a few questions I'd like to bring up regarding this potential ban:

• Will the release of Pokebank add anything helpful to Kangaskhan's repertoire that might aid an argument in favor of a ban?
• Will the release of Pokebank offer any counters to Mega Kangaskhan or ways of better handling a team that includes the 'Khan that could aid an argument against a ban?
• Will the release of Pokebank offer any alternatives to Mega Kangaskhan in the team-building phase that fit similar roles, and potentially offer unique advantages to a team using that alternative in lieu of the 'Khan?
• Do any currently-Uber Pokemon share any similar characteristics/qualities to Mega Kangaskhan that might consider a re-evaluation of that Pokemon's position in Ubers?
• Are any currently-Uber Pokemon counters to Mega Kangaskhan, and if so, could their position in Ubers be re-evaluated?

And, as for my own feelings about Kangaskhanite?

• Mega-Kangaskhan is incredibly potent as an offensive force. A Parental Bond boost of 50% was considered ridiculous even before the ability was fully spoiled, and yet here we stand. With a base attack score of 125, a Physical attack coming from Mega-'Khan puts legendaries to shame, and can rip apart all but the most dedicated of walls. A double-dose of Power-Up Punch is remarkably easy to pull off and survive the usage of, and from there, access to STAB Return, a priority move in Sucker Punch, and an acceptable range of coverage moves (including access to the three Elemental Punches after Pokebank is released) ensures that a Kangaskhan can have the moves it needs to reliably one-shot a team at just about any point in the game. Even 'counters' can be torn apart if Kangaskhan decides to carry a move that hits it for SE damage.
• Mega-Kangaskhan is "bulky enough". A Normal typing leaves it immune to Ghost moves (which are otherwise excellent in Gen VI) and only weak to Fighting moves (also quite common). 105/100/100 defenses are on par with mascot legendaries, and generally allow Mega-'Khan to tank a hit, Power-Up Punch, and then make short work of an opponent's team.
• Despite the fact that banning Kangaskhanite would make this the fifth of 28 Mega Stones to be disallowed in OU play (Mewtwonite X and Y, Blazikenite, and Gengarite are the current four), allowing this item seems to be stifling a team's options, rather than allowing for more. With so few ways for a team to handle it, and its practical inability to be reliably countered, teams have the option of either dedicating themselves to stopping the 'Khan, or using it themselves. Sometimes, both. I'm pretty sure that we'll see a Lucarionite Suspect Test shortly after this, but can't really forsee another Mega Stone ban after that (save for the Lati@s ones, whenever those show up).
• The fact that I considered bringing down Ubers and failed at thinking of a suitable counter from that list should be testament enough to the Khan's strength (or my inebriation and lack of focus). I'd have to think that any Uber capable of stopping a Kangaskhan in its tracks would be able to do so for your average set-up mon, mid-sweep, and thus be ridiculously overpowered.

All in all, I can see why it would be quick-banned, but I'd personally like to see it stay around a few weeks into the release of Pokebank, to see how well teams adjust to its presence.

 

[Katakiri]

There are a few questions I'd like to bring up regarding this potential ban:

• Will the release of Pokebank add anything helpful to Kangaskhan's repertoire that might aid an argument in favor of a ban?
• Will the release of Pokebank offer any counters to Mega Kangaskhan or ways of better handling a team that includes the 'Khan that could aid an argument against a ban?
• Will the release of Pokebank offer any alternatives to Mega Kangaskhan in the team-building phase that fit similar roles, and potentially offer unique advantages to a team using that alternative in lieu of the 'Khan?
• Do any currently-Uber Pokemon share any similar characteristics/qualities to Mega Kangaskhan that might consider a re-evaluation of that Pokemon's position in Ubers?
• Are any currently-Uber Pokemon counters to Mega Kangaskhan, and if so, could their position in Ubers be re-evaluated?

I'd like to take a stab at answering these as I avidly play both OU and Pokebank OU and am very familiar with the differences.

• Kangaskhan notably gets the Elemental Punches (Fire Punch above all) and Knock Off via Pokebank. While questionable, Body Slam sees some use for its decent paralysis odds with Parental Bond and Seismic Toss does a set 200 HP of damage due to Parental Bond but both come at the cost of Scrappy, being Gen 3 tutor moves.
• Cofagrigus becomes available in Pokebank and challenges Mega Kangaskhan with Mummy removing Parental Bond. Landorus-T returns with Intimidate and a slower than Kanga U-Turn to safely bring in a check. Terrakion and Keldeo can revenge-KO Kanga with their Sucker Punch resistance. Deoxys-S/D become available which can both help or hinder Mega Kangaskhan with reliable hazard damage. On the other side of that coin, the Gen 4 HM Defog flood-gates are opened which make it very easy to remove hazards.
  
• I'm sure some may disagree with me, but I think the short answer to your 3rd question is "no". Mega Kangaskhan is such a different beast from most physical sweepers and physical attackers in general that it is never going to fight for a team slot just because something can preform better than it. The only time Mega Kangaskhan fights for a team slot is because of another Mega Pokemon and I believe this is true for both OU and Pokebank OU.
• While I'll avoid the re-evaluation part of the question, the one Pokemon I think is a fair comparison to Mega Kangaskhan is Extreme-Killer Arceus if only because the comparison is just too easy: the typing, bulk, the Base 80 STAB Priority (Pseudo-STAB with Parental Bond), the coverage options; all Kanga is missing is Recover and an item slot. (Extreme-Killer is Adamant so even the Speed is a negligible 11 point difference.) Ubers is a harder-hitting tier than OU so the defensive differences shouldn't even be taken at face value. But on the same coin, OU is a lot less bulky than Ubers (typically) so the difference in power between Adamant Arceus and Jolly Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan shouldn't be taken at face value either.
  
• Finally is the obvious choice of Giratina as a Kangaskhan counter as far as an Uber one goes. But while it prevents Kanga from sweeping, it might only be considered a check to a Mega Kangaskhan ready for it as an un-boosted Crunch can 3HKO Impish Giratina with Kanga being much faster than it; Giratina need to be in good health to be considered a counter. I think Utility Support Arceus Steel could be considered a counter thanks to Will-O-Wisp but Max HP Arceus-Steel takes 60.8 - 72.2% from an unboosted EQ if Kanga carries it... So I think the answer to your question is "kinda?"

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Just want to point out Knock Off isn't learned by Kangaskhan, as people have proved in the Kangaskhan thread; that was a mistake by Serebii. Additionally, Mummy only activates by the end of the turn, so Cofagrigus will take two hits from Crunch.

 

[Stone RG]

Seeing as how we are literally 11 days away from Pokebank i think the final decision can wait, im not here to repeat the same old argument that have been repeated by the pro-ban numerous times and that we know by heart just about now, ranging from the Kanga's sheer strength, limiting at teambuilding and forces extremely cautious playing in an actual match (something i have only seen Halcyon mention, i think its very important the effect that the sole presence of Kangashkan in team Preview has on the pace of the opponent of Kangashkan's plays) and the lack of any downsides to its use in general. While i completely supported a quickban 2 days ago, right now i think (and i may be biased on this opinion) that waiting until the release of Pokebank, and see if nothing is actually gonna make a difference on Kanga's effect on the metagame should be the best course of action.

 

[Fireburn]

Seeing as how we are literally 11 days away from Pokebank i think the final decision can wait, im not here to repeat the same old argument that have been repeated by the pro-ban numerous times and that we know by heart just about now, ranging from the Kanga's sheer strength, limiting at teambuilding and forces extremely cautious playing in an actual match (something i have only seen Halcyon mention, i think its very important the effect that the sole presence of Kangashkan in team Preview has on the pace of the opponent of Kangashkan's plays) and the lack of any downsides to its use in general. While i completely supported a quickban 2 days ago, right now i think (and i may be biased on this opinion) that waiting until the release of Pokebank, and see if nothing is actually gonna make a difference on Kanga's effect on the metagame should be the best course of action.

I really think the Pokebank OU metagame is already a good representation of what would happen. Even if something really drastic is discovered, I don't think it would have much of an impact on Mega Khan. Like, let's say hypothetically the worst happens and PokeBank transferred mons weren't able to Mega Evolve after all. The only significant thing MegaKhan loses is Fire Punch (no one is arguing defensive Wish/SToss sets are broken), and even then, it still beats everything it needs to with the moves it already gets (Return, PuP, Sucker, Crunch or EQ). Okay, so a Fire Punch less Khan isn't getting through Skarm as easily (+2 Crunch still 2HKOes btw). Is that really enough reason to delay the decision? Not at all. And its already been proven why certain Pokebank mons are not reliable answers to Khan, so wasting two weeks just to "make sure" is a bit of a cop-out IMO.

The only other change I could think of would be something horrifically ridiculous. Like, Kyurem-B gets Icicle Crash and Close Combat kind of ridiculous. Not only would that not affect Mega Khan unless said buffed Pokemon was in fact already a "check" (Kyu-B is not a check at all), that kind of change would lead to Kyurem-B most likely getting banned, leaving us in the same position as before minus 2-4 weeks we could have used for more important things.

Bearing this in mind, the best course of action would be to quickban Khan and see if there truly is anything after Pokebank actually comes out that might warrant a reassessment.

(FWIW Icicle Crash Kyurem-B is a thing that I would love to see happen.)