The reason is that Abra doesn't have as much problems as it did when Misdreavus was still around, now after Missy's ban it doesn't face competition from Misdreavus like it did before its ban when it was the most common 19 speed tier Pokémon forcing Abra into some frustrating speed ties. Now using Abra is safer than before because you won't be facing a lot of speed ties, that's why it's easier to use now.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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I think Abra only seems stronger now because more people are using Life Orb on it instead of Focus Sash, which seems like more of a safe change in the eyes of many players now than before partly because Fake Out has become less common on Mienfoo in favor of Taunt, High Jump Kick, Acrobatics, or even Poison Jab, from what I've seen.
And Abra carries Substitute now to get around Sucker Punch, so it doesn't need Focus Sash to beat Pawniard. It still needs it to get a big hit against Fletchling, though.
I like taking advantage of the new Abra trend by running Slowpoke, which wins 100% against Abra that doesn't have Shadow Ball. All the random moves people are using on Abra like Thunder Wave and Knock Off are just weird, and Energy Ball for coverage is also weird. Slowpoke still has its other uses like paralysis support, and Scald and Regenerator are always good.
Pursuit Stunky and Pursuit Munchlax are also really solid counters to Life Orb Abra. I don't really find it that difficult to deal with at all.
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Goddess Briyella said:
Slowpoke isn't particularly good in this meta, I've found. I mean it can check Abra but it also just provides ample opportunity for any U-Turner / Volt Switcher to come in and pick up free momentum (Scald's 30% Burn chance is not something you can bank on), which is a liability in this metagame. The other pokemon that you cite can beat Abra are either truely niche (Stunky) or the closest thing to a dedicated special wall in Munchlax. But you are right in the sense that it can be played around as a sweeper, especially Life Orb. My main problem, in all honesty, with Abra is the fact it's likely responsible for the homogenization of teams in the meta. Since the Sash set is just a huge cockblock to pretty much any set-up sweeper, most teams either limit themselves to one or none. Instead, they favor teams that can gain momentum easily and then fire off damage; that's why we see Chinchou on every team and not most teams. (That was an exaggeration, yes i know). But yeah, if there was less Abra there could be more sweeping, I feel, which opens up variety we haven't seen yet.
Please don't make it seem like it's super safe for a Volt Switch/U-turn user to switch into Slowpoke when it has both Scald and Thunder Wave (I mean there's Chinchou but oh well, Slowpoke does not work alone). Even if they do manage to get in, it can tank a super effective U-turn or Volt Switch and then threaten the incoming Pokemon with status anyway. Sometimes I leave Slowpoke in on Pawniard and take the Knock Off just so I can ensure the paralysis. Slowpoke's ability to tank hard super effective hits combined with Thunder Wave and Scald wins games. Being forced to switch isn't a huge deal for Slowpoke because of Regenerator and due to its ability for a good player to easily maintain high health for it through that, Eviolite, and Slack Off, it's not even easy to force out. I use Slowpoke and it's great; and it's not like it works alone. I run Scald / Thunder Wave / Recover / Psychic, with cleric support and Chinchou checks.
Thunder Wave Abra is actually really good...if you are still playing the TangMa metagame, that is. I used that on it a lot back then because there were a lot more potent threats Abra had no hope of OHKOing. You used Thunder Wave on them, took a hit, and then hit them the next turn after they break your Sash. Now they're crippled way beyond what they would normally be if you just hit them with Psychic. Nowadays, after the ban of Tangela, Yanma, Swirlix, and Misdreavus, the category of "Stuff Sash Abra can't normally beat that is ruined by Thunder Wave" is pretty much just Tirtouga and Dwebble; everything else in the metagame is either KOed by Abra, doesn't care too much about Thunder Wave, or just plain isn't worth carrying it for.
After playing around LC after Missy's ban I have found an item to be somewhat overwhelming: Berry Juice.
Last generation BJ was banned, and I fail to see what has changed about LC so much as to allow this item again. Giving your Pokemon essentially 2 lives is just way too much IMO. People like Magnemite now REQUIRE the use of someone with Taunt/ Leech seed/ will o wisp as he can dodge fatal blows with Endure/ sturdy. Factor in his access to toxic and recycle, and I find him too defining. As well, I know several people have all ready complained about Dweble and Tirtuga so I think we really need to come up with something to do with Berry Juice.
Last generation BJ was banned, and I fail to see what has changed about LC so much as to allow this item again. Giving your Pokemon essentially 2 lives is just way too much IMO. People like Magnemite now REQUIRE the use of someone with Taunt/ Leech seed/ will o wisp as he can dodge fatal blows with Endure/ sturdy. Factor in his access to toxic and recycle, and I find him too defining. As well, I know several people have all ready complained about Dweble and Tirtuga so I think we really need to come up with something to do with Berry Juice.
Use Stealth Rock.
greengrappler, Berry Juice was voted on a while back, and it was determined not to be ban-worthy. I personally feel that Berry Juice adds some much-needed diversity to the metagame (give Eviolite some competition), and while there are some annoying abusers (Endure+Recycle Magnemite) the truth is that Sturdy+Juice is easily dealt with by a prepared team.
If you need a good Sturdy+Juice counter, look no farther than Drilbur: Mold Breaker ignores Sturdy--Jolly Eviolite EQ is a guaranteed OHKO on Magnemite or Tirtouga, LO Rock Slide has a 75% chance of OHKOing Dwebble, but Eviolite Drilbur walls Dwebble anyway).
Beyond that, just get Rocks on the field. Worried about Defog? Pack Pawniard as well.
If you need a good Sturdy+Juice counter, look no farther than Drilbur: Mold Breaker ignores Sturdy--Jolly Eviolite EQ is a guaranteed OHKO on Magnemite or Tirtouga, LO Rock Slide has a 75% chance of OHKOing Dwebble, but Eviolite Drilbur walls Dwebble anyway).
Beyond that, just get Rocks on the field. Worried about Defog? Pack Pawniard as well.
I'll also add to what Antar and Goddess Briyella said that another reason that Berry Juice isn't broken like last gen is Knock Off's buff: a lot of Berry Juice Pokémon suffer from that in this gen because Knock Off became a common safe way to deal with Berry Juice Pokémon as well as being a great coverage move for some Fighting-types like Mienfoo and a nice move that gives support to the team. And remember that Pokémon with Recycle can use the latter after getting its item Knocked Off.
Yea, I've been wanting to try out Drillbur really bad lately, but my team just doesn't have room. I knew he was somewhat strong, but I had no idea he could OHKO Tirtuga.
Knock Off is far too easily accessible and prominent for any player to be overly troubled by Berry Juice. A knocked off item cannot be recycled, and most of the S and A-ranked Pokemon in the meta should carry it.
Good point, does berry juice activate BEFORE it is knocked off or does it not activate at all?
Not at all. It's removed before it can activate, meaning Berry Juice users are troubled by opponents by Knock Off.
If it is Knocked Off, I do not believe it will activate.
Also, as far as the Sturdy Juice Pokemon go, multi-hit moves work well against them. I carry Rock Blast on quite a few things to deal with those threats.
The only Sturdy carrier that Rock Blast is good against is Dwebble. Bullet Seed is better against Tirtouga (Ferroseed is a full counter to it partly because of this). Unfortunately, there are no multi-hit moves that are good against Magnemite except Arm Thrust, and nothing worth using gets that. Good point, though.
Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 160 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Taunt/Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
Recently, I've really liked using this set. While most focus on Pawniard's offensive attributes, I made this set to take a more supportive role on a team. It uses Pawn's nifty typing and surprisingly good support movepool to help out a team. Thunder Wave stops lots of threatening mons in their tracks and has a great surprise factor--not many will expect it. Taunt + Knock Off allows Pawn to beat some common SR leads as well as prevent itself from getting burned/paralyzed by the likes of Pumpkaboo and Porygon. Iron head allows it to kill Fairies while retaining some offensive presence. Stealth Rocks are nice, but usually I find myself using another setter so I can run Taunt. All in all, this set fares pretty well against stall teams that are getting more common and can also do very well against balance teams that utilize Fletchling as a sweeper. Surprise factor plays a massive role in the success of this set, as common mons that pivot in on Pawniard, like Mienfoo, risk being crippled.
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Slashari that's looking like a really good set. it still fears Abra and Gastly, though, if it doesn't predict their switch-in and use Thunder Wave or Knock Off. also you said it can stop common SR setters - max Speed Drilbur running Jolly still outspeeds it, as does Anorith though it's less common. Dwebble is outsped but no Dwebble will stay in on Pawniard and a good player will just try to gain some momentum on a predicted Iron Head. I guess that's an opportunity to cripple something with Iron Head, but still.
i like though, might try it out :oo what have you found are good partners? the usual, maybe, but this probably works in a more defensive core... stuff like Frillish/Larvesta/Foongus, hmm
i like though, might try it out :oo what have you found are good partners? the usual, maybe, but this probably works in a more defensive core... stuff like Frillish/Larvesta/Foongus, hmm
So yeah, the current topic didn't change for more than a month and I had a talk with Rowan and we both decided that a discussion about items in LC would be a great one to make this thread more active. I'll go ahead and post what I think: No one can deny that items in LC matter more than they do normally. LC Pokémon use items to boost their otherwise mediocre defenses or recover ~100% of their HP, things that are absent in the other tiers but there are some items that are viable in OU like Leftovers and Assault Vest but that are totally unviable in LC and outclassed by other items that are better and safer. This importance of items also makes Knock Off have a huge impact compared to what it does in other tiers removing the items and nullifying their effects making the opposing Pokémon less effective since they hugely rely on items (There are some exceptions like itemless Fletchling), this influence of Knock Off made a lot of people nominate it to be suspected and a previous topic in this thread was about Knock Off and its huge impact on the metagame. But since the topic is about items it'll be better to stay on topic and only talk about them even though Knock Off is significantly associated to items and you can't talk about one without mentioning the other one.
So yeah guys you can go ahead and have a healthy discussion about items in LC, their influence, which ones are viable and which aren't, and in what situations an item can be a better option than another one.
Ok, in terms of items you definetly should not be using some things (sadly I saw someone using an Assault Vest on Showdow and recording his battles), but one thing that most people don't consider is Life Orb versus Choice Specs / Band. In LC, Life Orb is generally better as the damage rolls are a lot closer, and some pokemon like Houndour only take 1 damage when using the proper set. Also, Life Orb allows you to switch moves, making sure you are not locked into Sucker Punch or another inconvient move. As for Knock Off, you should usually have something like Trubbish that can keep its item and check / counters users of Knock Off spam (Trubbish counters most Pawniard adn Mienfoo).
It's no doubt that Berry Juice, Eviolite, Choice Scarf, and Life Orb are the most common items in LC, but are people really trying out as many items as they can? Something that's quite interesting is type-resist berries, which actually see a reasonable amount of use in other tiers, but not in LC, usually because Eviolite is usually better, but it can have some nice uses. TCR has used Amaura with type resist berries, which allows it to effectively lure out fighting/steel types well (depending on which berry it has).
Band/Specs are viable items which do help with certain calcs sometimes, and are really cool on Pokemon that get trick/switcheroo, such as corphish or binacle.
As for other semi-common items in other tiers, I never see lum berry in LC, but it always seems like Eviolite would be a better choice.
Air Balloon is another interesting item, TCR came up with an Elekid set that used Air Balloon and thief, which makes Elekid really hard to deal with initially.
But at the end of the day, Eviolite and Berry Juice outclass most of these items, because other items are situational, whilst Eviolite+BJ aren't and are useful in any battle, making other items a waste of time, especially in ladder play.
Band/Specs are viable items which do help with certain calcs sometimes, and are really cool on Pokemon that get trick/switcheroo, such as corphish or binacle.
As for other semi-common items in other tiers, I never see lum berry in LC, but it always seems like Eviolite would be a better choice.
Air Balloon is another interesting item, TCR came up with an Elekid set that used Air Balloon and thief, which makes Elekid really hard to deal with initially.
But at the end of the day, Eviolite and Berry Juice outclass most of these items, because other items are situational, whilst Eviolite+BJ aren't and are useful in any battle, making other items a waste of time, especially in ladder play.
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