Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[Camden]

I'm not implying that, i'm just saying that even among the S-Ranked they kinda play a rock/paper/scissors game, and each of them has counters for each set from different non-ranked-S pokemon.

I think rank-s for fletchling is very situational to the actual state of the meta, and mainly because it checks the high usage fighting types, a few months ago it wasn't anywhere near that, back when we had gligar, murk and meditite for example. The fact that people keep using fighting types allowing fletchling to sweep through, is what makes him mostly strong actually. Murk and gligar had no major problem dealing with Fletchling, and they also checked fighting types along with swirlix, which made fletchling kinda redundanct except to deal with swirlix itself for the most.

Fighting types are mostly used because of knock off/stab drainpunch, mainly to weaken walls and deal with pawniard and other steel/rock/normal types. Steel and Rock which are almost non existant and could actually check fletchling.
So it's kinda of a cat and mouse chase, where fletch checks fighting and fighting checks the types that would check Fletch.

So in conclusion, fighting types are the ones making either fletchling stronger and rock/steel types weaker, for which they are the real responsible for fletch to be a candidate to rank-s

Fletch and Pawniard are 2 majorly important pokemons on the actual meta because of their stab and prioritys in the actual metagame, but could be majorly overlooked if the metagame shifted away from fighting types and it's counters, because that's mostly the truth about how people centralize the game: they use fighting types and counters/walls for each fighting type basically, with maybe a support pokemon.
And well, we all know why fighting types are used so much- they are bulky/fast and have mostly good recovery and great coverage that makes them not having many solid checks/counters, they keep psychic types away from being viable by themselves basically with the obvious exception of Abra for being fast, but is still rather fragile and doensn't really want to switch on fighting types potential knock off.

In my team for example, i have basically 4 out of 6 pokemon checking fighting types, and the other 2 can either lure them and cripple them. Tells wonders about how fighting centralizes the game.

The problem with "checking fighting-types" is that the only thing they have in common is their Flying weakness. Scraggy has a Psychic immunity, Riolu has Prankster, Mienfoo has a convenient movepool to get around its checks (aside from some Poison-types) so having a whole team to check them can backfire.

Oh, and Fletch possibly being S-Rank wouldn't just be because of Fighting-types. It also beats out all of the Grass/Bug pokes of the meta, as well as nearly any poke in the meta that doesn't have decent bulk. It in itself forces more defensive playstyles out of fear of getting OHKO'd/2HKO'd.

 

[tcr]

I don't think we really need to ban anything since it's all kinda balanced in a sort of Rock/paper/scissors game. Pawn and missy can check fletch, fletch can check mienfoo, and mienfoo checks pawn, and pawn checks dreavus to some part.

Just because something broken checks another broken thing that doesn't mean it is healthy and should stay. Misdreavus is clearly unhealthy with its ability to bypass any of its checks, as well as outright limiting teambuilding. Mienfoo is clearly unhealthy in its prescence of just plain being the better choice to a lot of Pokemon. Fletching again forces teambuilding limitations, as well as even battling limitations. Fletchling forces so much pressure on a team to stay healthy, lest they just get outright swept with a priority acrobatics.

 

[Goldland]

The problem with "checking fighting-types" is that the only thing they have in common is their Flying weakness. Scraggy has a Psychic immunity, Riolu has Prankster, Mienfoo has a convenient movepool to get around its checks (aside from some Poison-types) so having a whole team to check them can backfire.

Oh, and Fletch possibly being S-Rank wouldn't just be because of Fighting-types. It also beats out all of the Grass/Bug pokes of the meta, as well as nearly any poke in the meta that doesn't have decent bulk. It in itself forces more defensive playstyles out of fear of getting OHKO'd/2HKO'd.

Flying is the biggest weakness for fighting types, so it's not surprising people use them for that purpose of countering fighting types Fletch doesn't really have more than taillow but priority.
Grass types and bug types aren't used is not really because of fletchling, is mostly because most of them either have really bad typing or inefficient for the actual metagame.
The metagame shifted against fletching and thus he's becoming more and more ineficient, it's not like some people will keep using fletching if everyone uses counters for it, because it sure has counters, it's not like any other pokemon that has been banned or ranked S, to be effective it mostly requires massive assistance from a team, and when it's a team work that is successful, i'm not sure you can really complain, it runs mostly the same sets. If it's one of the best gameplays there is , it's one of the best, but it's not uncounterable or even running totally unpredictable sets like other banned pokemon did.

Just because something broken checks another broken thing that doesn't mean it is healthy and should stay. Misdreavus is clearly unhealthy with its ability to bypass any of its checks, as well as outright limiting teambuilding. Mienfoo is clearly unhealthy in its prescence of just plain being the better choice to a lot of Pokemon. Fletching again forces teambuilding limitations, as well as even battling limitations. Fletchling forces so much pressure on a team to stay healthy, lest they just get outright swept with a priority acrobatics.

Misdreavus does have unpredictable sets, but he's also kind of fragile to switch into many pokemon, it's not like he threatens a 1HKO and forces you to switch you can mostly play around mind games with your opponent, but well, mind games also happen with other set up/sub mons.
Mienfoo has a very high MSS in my opinion. For the most he'll run drain punch, knock off, u-turn and fake-out/hjk/acro or even taunt, but he lacks ways to hurt fairy or poison types much, and flying types mostly force him to switch. Mienfoo niche is being a regenerator, but it's the kind of pokemon that really needs alot of support to be sucessful. It's effenciency comes mainly from being in a high speed tier and take a hit and u-turn, but nothing more. He's strong, that's for sure, but in no way overpowered or uncounterable.
Fletch doesn't exactly limit team building, if you run a rock/steel/electric type you can check him and counter him. If you have trouble with him, you'll have trouble with a tailow or a doduo, or even a vullaby for example. Fletch is a flying type that is overused because of priority, but that's the real only thing he has over other flying types, with fletchling gone, be sure you'll face the same trouble with other birds, that's pokemon.
Flying type are effectivelly strong against fighting types mostly because they don't fear their knock off like psychic types, while also outspeeding them.

 

[tcr]

Flying is the biggest weakness for fighting types, so it's not surprising people use them for that purpose of countering fighting types Fletch doesn't really have more than taillow but priority.
Grass types and bug types aren't used is not really because of fletchling, is mostly because most of them either have really bad typing or inefficient for the actual metagame.
The metagame shifted against fletching and thus he's becoming more and more ineficient, it's not like some people will keep using fletching if everyone uses counters for it, because it sure has counters, it's not like any other pokemon that has been banned or ranked S, to be effective it mostly requires massive assistance from a team, and when it's a team work that is successful, i'm not sure you can really complain, it runs mostly the same sets. If it's one of the best gameplays there is , it's one of the best, but it's not uncounterable or even running totally unpredictable sets like other banned pokemon did.


Misdreavus does have unpredictable sets, but he's also kind of fragile to switch into many pokemon, it's not like he threatens a 1HKO and forces you to switch you can mostly play around mind games with your opponent, but well, mind games also happen with other set up/sub mons.
Mienfoo has a very high MSS in my opinion. For the most he'll run drain punch, knock off, u-turn and fake-out/hjk/acro or even taunt, but he lacks ways to hurt fairy or poison types much, and flying types mostly force him to switch. Mienfoo niche is being a regenerator, but it's the kind of pokemon that really needs alot of support to be sucessful. It's effenciency comes mainly from being in a high speed tier and take a hit and u-turn, but nothing more. He's strong, that's for sure, but in no way overpowered or uncounterable.
Fletch doesn't exactly limit team building, if you run a rock/steel/electric type you can check him and counter him. If you have trouble with him, you'll have trouble with a tailow or a doduo, or even a vullaby for example. Fletch is a flying type that is overused because of priority, but that's the real only thing he has over other flying types, with fletchling gone, be sure you'll face the same trouble with other birds, that's pokemon.
Flying type are effectivelly strong against fighting types mostly because they don't fear their knock off like psychic types, while also outspeeding them.

236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

236+ Atk Scraggy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Missy is in no way frail lmao. AFAIK, there is literally no attack outside of Amaura Hyper Beam that OHKOes 36 HP Eviolite Misdreavus. This is completely disregarding any sort of bulk on the set. Misdreavus can easily switch into just about any Pokemon in the tier, and threatens maybe not a OHKO but an end to the game, with a simple Nasty Plot, seeing as it is 3hkoed by most neutral attacks in the tier.

It doesn't matter what Mienfoo runs, or Fletchling runs, or if their sets are predictable. You missed the entire point. We can argue whether either are broken all day, but the main reason they are unhealthy is that they are centralizing to the metagame. Mienfoo pretty much forces a team to run Fletchling, which in turn forces a team to run a Fletchling check. I'm going to stop here and just let you finish that train, and save my energy for the Suspect Discussion thread.

 

[Celestavian]

In what world are you forced to run Fletchling to check Mienfoo? Whatever happened to Abra, Larvesta, Ponyta, Trubbish and Grimer, Timburr, Snubbull, Koffing, Spritzee, and Foongus? That may or may not be all of Mienfoo's checks, but that's a pretty long list either way. Not all of them can switch in, and not all of them like their item to be removed, but the most Mienfoo can do to these Pokemon is use Knock Off and get out before it's KOed/crippled/outdamaged. Abra's especially potent because it can set up a Sub or just hit the switch-in hard with nothing Mienfoo can do about it. You could say that being able to use Knock Off means Mienfoo doing it's job, but that's more of a problem with Knock Off than it is with Mienfoo. Anything with Knock Off and good Speed can do that. If one can't fit one of those 10 Pokemon on their team to check Mienfoo (they are all capable of doing other things too) then maybe the problem is with the team, rather than Mienfoo.

 

[Goldland]

236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

236+ Atk Scraggy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Missy is in no way frail lmao. AFAIK, there is literally no attack outside of Amaura Hyper Beam that OHKOes 36 HP Eviolite Misdreavus. This is completely disregarding any sort of bulk on the set. Misdreavus can easily switch into just about any Pokemon in the tier, and threatens maybe not a OHKO but an end to the game, with a simple Nasty Plot, seeing as it is 3hkoed by most neutral attacks in the tier.

It doesn't matter what Mienfoo runs, or Fletchling runs, or if their sets are predictable. You missed the entire point. We can argue whether either are broken all day, but the main reason they are unhealthy is that they are centralizing to the metagame. Mienfoo pretty much forces a team to run Fletchling, which in turn forces a team to run a Fletchling check. I'm going to stop here and just let you finish that train, and save my energy for the Suspect Discussion thread.

Sorry but no, you are the one that missed my point when i explained they aren't exactly centralizing per se, but by type
. They're overall very useful mons but are easily counterable/stallable and it's not like they even threat a 1hko with few exceptions. They're just the fastest of their typing, but lack coverage and for the most require a great ammount of teamwork for them to be successful, but their jobs can be easily fulfilled by some other pokemons in the tier.
If you take fletchling away, you'll still have to run counters for Taillow or Doduo, otherwise they can do close to the same with the same kind of suppost that fletchling can. Fletchling is hyped mainly because of priority, but there are quite some pokemons that can trully counter/stall him in the very same way they stall other bird types.
If you take Mienfoo away , other fighting types will required to be countered in the same exact way you counter mienfoo : with birds, psychic, fairys, poison types, w/e.
With Missdreavus away, ghost types might become really rare and you'll have to prepare for Abras sub+orb or sash and amazing coverage, with the same exact speed tier and other fast threats like gastly. Each and every Missdreavus set lacks either coverage or power, and the most "feared" sub+plot is easily dealt with Knock-offs by Mienfoo for example, and won't run HP Fighting which makes it lack coverage and gives a lot of potential counters.

So in summary, no, i don't think they really centralize the game because the counters you have to run for them are mostly generic for the counters of the typing. You don't really even run HP psychic on many pokemons to counter mienfoo, HP electric for fletch, etc, the same way you actually might do just to counter pawniard.

 

[blarajan]

I just want to make this clear. A big part of why Swirlix, Gligar, Murkrow, and Meditite were banned was the fact that they overly restricted teambuilding, often limiting you to one of a few Pokemon, or forcing you to run bad Pokemon to deal with them. Not because you had to include them in your teambuilding. Just because Fletchling or Mienfoo or Misdreavus requires you to adapt to them in your teambuilding does not mean they are broken. Having to run a check does not mean jack shit--every single not awful Pokemon requires you to run a check for them, else your team is ass. It is better to ask whether the effect they have on teambuilding (along with other factors) pushes them over the edge, not that you have to account for them. Otherwise you'll just ban every Pokemon in the tier lol.

If you think something's broken / worth suspecting by all means, discuss it. I just don't want us to say "eh I have to check this mon and I don't want to, let's suspect it." That would be bad.

 

[migzoo]

I'd like to point out something about Knock Off and Misdreavus:
If we were to ban Misdreavus, Knock Off would become slightly LESS useful, as it is one of the best ways to hit Misdreavus hard. If Missy is no longer in the meta, that's 60% of (1760) teams which have one less Pokemon weak to Knock Off. Of the other Pokemon in top 20 usage, 9 resist Knock Off, and only 1 is weak to it. Of course, Knock Off is still very annoying even to those who resist it (especially scarfers and berry juice users), but I do think banning Missy might cause a slight drop in the usage of Knock Off.
On the other hand, if we ban Knock Off, Misdreavus would become significantly MORE useful. All of the sudden, Misdreavus can set up on Mienfoo, Vullaby, Timburr, Croagunk, Aipom, unless they run some random coverage move that is way worse than Knock Off. So I believe that if we were to ban Knock Off, Misdreavus would get even more ridiculous usage, to the point where it would DEFINITELY require a ban.

 

[fatty]

im sorry goldland but taillow and doduo are not even near the same level as fletchling, and yes it's all because of priority. taillow and doduo can be threats, ill give you that, but priority makes all the difference. taillow and doduo can possibly break past their counters or checks, but then they have to worry about possibly being revenge killed. with fletchling, there is no worry. if you can focus the entire match on weakening or even getting rid of a flying counter, you're set up for an immediate sweep. this is what makes teams run so many counters to fletchling, because it can't be revenge killed, only countered. you can't just run something faster to beat it, you need to make sure you keep a counter healthy enough throughout a whole match, and most of the time that isn't enough, hence the multiple counters.

and also, migzoo, i hope you know that if misdreavus gets banned, gastly will just fulfill it's place as ghost of the meta. knock off will not get any less prominent, and not even because of ghosts, just because it is such a great move in a metagame such as lc where items are so useful.

 

[Goldland]

im sorry goldland but taillow and doduo are not even near the same level as fletchling, and yes it's all because of priority. taillow and doduo can be threats, ill give you that, but priority makes all the difference. taillow and doduo can possibly break past their counters or checks, but then they have to worry about possibly being revenge killed. with fletchling, there is no worry. if you can focus the entire match on weakening or even getting rid of a flying counter, you're set up for an immediate sweep. this is what makes teams run so many counters to fletchling, because it can't be revenge killed, only countered. you can't just run something faster to beat it, you need to make sure you keep a counter healthy enough throughout a whole match, and most of the time that isn't enough, hence the multiple counters.

It's obvious that fletchling is more reliable to the other two in the current meta, but my point was that his job has a bird/sweeper is mostly replaceable by those two if fletchling is gone, and people will still have to prepare for bird types the exact same way you prepare now for fletchling, and thus i refuse to accept the concept that fletchling actually centralizes the meta other then by it's typing. Fletchling is just a fast bird type anyway. The only thing gale wings make a real difference is in terms of possibly avoiding sucker punches and priority, but that's it for him, Taillow for instance can threaten much more damage in one single hit and can even function as a wallbreaker, so they're objectivelly different pokemon.

 

[mad0ka]

Okay goldland, you're completely wrong. How would those two even replace Fletch? As scarf users, giving them the unreliable ability to move first like Gale Wings allows fletch? Scarf doduo would be p legit, but scarf taillow? It already has shitty attacking stats, so it basically needs LO or specs to be able to dent anything in the meta. Besides, Fletchling would actually be able to switch moves, giving it a huge advantage. Also, those two mons lack set up moves (barring agility doduo lol), so they're not really able to overpower their checks/counters. And something I believe you're forgetting is fletch's bulk. Having 110 BP priority, it's not really necessary for it to invest in speed unless he wants to outspeed and u-turn out of standard 14 spe chinchou, which imo isn't all that hype. Fletchling can avoid the 2hko from pawniard's knock off invested, which is an amazing feat, whereas doduo and taillow probably barely even survive because they have literally 2 bulk. These flying types all have completely different roles, and you denying that is incredibly ignorant.

 

[Ecna]

My only problem with banning Fletch would be that Chlorophyll Bellsprout would run even more rampant without Priority Acrobatics. We would basically need Scarf Doduo in order to prevent ChloroSprout from sweeping >_>

 

[Goldland]

Okay goldland, you're completely wrong. How would those two even replace Fletch?

They replace fletch in the kind of gameplay he's usually used, that is checking grass/fighting/bug types and readily set up and sweep or wall break, isn't it?

Scarf doduo would be p legit, but scarf taillow? It already has shitty attacking stats, so it basically needs LO or specs to be able to dent anything in the meta.

Taillow has shitty stats? You must be kidding me, taillow has 19 speed and 15 attack the same as fletchling, plus it has Guts, it can run a flame orb, and access to STAB Brave Bird , Facade and Boomburst, that are some of the most powerful moves in the meta, and make it even viable to run either as special or physical wall breaker. As an example:
236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 15-18 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 30-36 (120 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, having guts it doesn't even fear status like fletchling does, the only thing it lacks is some bulk and not having a 110 stab priority, though it still has quick attack, but with 19 speed you can be sure he'll outspeed most mons in the meta without requiring a scarf, so I'm quite sure that without fletchling, taillow could become really overused and have the same kind of "centralization" you claim for fletchling.
That it hasn't the same bulk? I give you that, but it can for sure fullfil the job of sweeping/revenge killing fletch does against fighting, grass and bug types.
The counters you run against fletch are in no way different than the counters you would run for taillow, with the single exception of priority stab mons like corphish and bunnelby.

 

[Camden]

Bellsprout doesn't have a lower viability ranking because of Fletch, it's because he NEEDS that Sun Support to do anything. Sun still has to be managed properly, otherwise he's just an okay wallbreaker.

 

[doomsday doink]

My only problem with banning Fletch would be that Chlorophyll Bellsprout would run even more rampant without Priority Acrobatics. We would basically need Scarf Doduo in order to prevent ChloroSprout from sweeping >_>

Alright so I know that DroughtSprout (the better name) has become all the rage lately and to be honest, it's probably going to continue to rise due to Bellsprout's abilities to 2HKO most of the meta and Sleep Powder anything that would be able to handle it. If Fletchling does happen to get banned, it'll be even more threatening. When queenlucy was popularizing the strategy, I played her so many times, and that's really when I started to run rain teams in LC. I know people are always ragging on how rain isn't a good weather because it has no auto-inducers and it's inferior to sun and sand, but it's a great way to deal with sun teams and it still uses the more threatening Pokemon in the tier, such as Mienfoo and Chinchou, to set and abuse rain.

They replace fletch in the kind of gameplay he's usually used, that is checking grass/fighting/bug types and readily set up and sweep or wall break, isn't it?


Taillow has shitty stats? You must be kidding me, taillow has 19 speed and 15 attack the same as fletchling, plus it has Guts, it can run a flame orb, and access to STAB Brave Bird , Facade and Boomburst, that are some of the most powerful moves in the meta, and make it even viable to run either as special or physical wall breaker. As an example:
236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 15-18 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 30-36 (120 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, having guts it doesn't even fear status like fletchling does, the only thing it lacks is some bulk and not having a 110 stab priority, though it still has quick attack, but with 19 speed you can be sure he'll outspeed most mons in the meta without requiring a scarf, so I'm quite sure that without fletchling, taillow could become really overused and have the same kind of "centralization" you claim for fletchling.
That it hasn't the same bulk? I give you that, but it can for sure fullfil the job of sweeping/revenge killing fletch does against fighting, grass and bug types.
The counters you run against fletch are in no way different than the counters you would run for taillow, with the single exception of priority stab mons like corphish and bunnelby.

I love Taillow and I've utilized it as a Specs sweeper, a Guts sweeper, a Scarfed sweeper, and even tried to make it a bulky pivot once (t'was bad). Yes, a Guts Taillow is going to do some serious damage, but Taillow can't learn Swords Dance and it's still never going to have that 110 power priority Flying-type move. It's also going to continuously become weaker in terms of bulk each turn, making it easy to revenge kill by something with priority or a strong Scarfer. Now to address your calcs:

236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 15-18 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <--- this is rather impressive
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 30-36 (120 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO <--- who is going to use a Foongus vs an already statused Taillow?
236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <--- if they aren't switching into an attack, you're not going to have a good time
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <--- With the combination of the recoil, Iron Barbs and Toxic/Flame Orb, you aren't going to be around much longer.

Now Taillow does have some similar traits to Fletchling in that its speed can almost match up to Fletchling's priority and does have access to Roost for longevity. But while you're roosting, you're giving your opponent either a free switch or a free turn to hit Taillow with something, and Taillow doesn't appreciate being hit. Personally, I agree that Taillow is going to be more common if Fletchling is banned, but it's never going to be the type of game-ending threat that the Fletchling is, nor will it reach the same amount of usage.

As for Doduo, it's ugly, looks like something you pulled out of the drain and I can't really make a stance on it because I've never used it.

 

[Rowan]

Goldland, yes you'd still run counters to taillow and doduo if fletchling got banned, but would you be swept by taillow and doduo as easily, and would the meta game be as centralised?

 

[Diana]

As for Doduo, it's ugly, looks like something you pulled out of the drain and I can't really make a stance on it because I've never used it.

Are you sure about this? Doduo is adorable!

But more on-topic, Fletchling is clearly on another level than any of the other Flying-types because of that priority Acrobatics. That doesn't mean I'm completely convinced Fletchling is broken, however. FletchDig is undeniably amazing but Fletchling feels like one of those Pokemon that really wishes it could have like 6 moves. Fletch is typically going to want Swords Dance, Acrobatics, and U-turn, leaving one move to either help it stay healthy or take out one of its counters. Does it use Roost? Overheat? Steel Wing? Natural Gift? Each of these can mess one or two things up but it's going to need some serious help getting past everything. Roost makes it easier to keep Fletchling around for a sweep but requires that extra bit of support. I'll admit I'm not a big fan of Natural Gift either since I'd really rather not have to burn that berry before being able to use full-power Acrobatics.

I'm not sure how we'd get to a LC metagame that isn't somewhat centralized, honestly. Last time we tried to ban a bunch of things to get there we made it even worse. I'd rather be cautious this time around and not fall into the trap of banning too much early on. I mean I'm not going to be too worried if one thing goes, honestly, but let's just sit back and think about things for a while before we start nominating things like Mienfoo.

 

[Goldland]

236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 15-18 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <--- this is rather impressive
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 30-36 (120 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO <--- who is going to use a Foongus vs an already statused Taillow?
236 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <--- if they aren't switching into an attack, you're not going to have a good time
236 Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <--- With the combination of the recoil, Iron Barbs and Toxic/Flame Orb, you aren't going to be around much longer.

I agree with the everything else that you said just wanted to explain why i linked foongus, it's exactly because taillow can serve as a perfect foongus Counter, outright threatning a 1hko even with eviolite, and doesn't fear spore.

 

[doomsday doink]

I agree with the everything else that you said just wanted to explain why i linked foongus, it's exactly because taillow can serve as a perfect foongus Counter, outright threatning a 1hko even with eviolite, and doesn't fear spore.

A Counter is defined as something that can switch in to any moves and threaten the opposing Pokemon.

0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Taillow: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

When you hit Foongus with Bravie Bird after taking that amount of damage, you're going to faint due to recoil, and you wont even get the chance to attack if the opponent set up Stealth Rock prior. So your "perfect Foongus counter" isn't so perfect after all.

 

[Rowan]

I'm not sure how we'd get to a LC metagame that isn't somewhat centralized, honestly. Last time we tried to ban a bunch of things to get there we made it even worse.

When was this?

Also, is banning loads of things always a bad thing? Look at UU now, they've moved a shit load of things to BL and they've got a pretty balanced, non-centralised metagame (from what I've heard, not played much).

As for fletchling having 4mss, this was the same argument put forward for stuff like swirlix and meditite. It's not like it has 4mss, it's that it has options to defeat its usual counters, making it unpredictable and forcing you to run multiple counters.


By the way I'm not saying I'm for or against a fletch ban, I'm playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion.

 

[The Avalanches]

I will personally be nominating Misdreavus and Fletchling. I'm not completely sure they're broken, and until getting the reqs, I was on the fence about them being centralizing. But after watching the sheer versatility of them both, trying to manage them is difficult. They both run a few sets different ways, and even with the "right" check/counter, you can still never be fully sure. Can I bring in my Houndour or is she running HP Fighting? Is this Fletchling running Speed EVs in order to outspeed my last-ditch Memento? Am I about to switch my Archen into a Steel Wing? Having to run a Ghost- or Flying-resist isn't too inconvenient in and of itself, but I feel it's centralizing if you have to run two or three just in case one of the counters you packed eats a HP Fighting or gets a sub set up on it. I feel as though both are centralizing, however, I am unsure if banning them will have a positive effect on the meta.

 

[nv]

I just got my reqs and personally I am going to be nominating Misdreavus, but I have no idea on who else. I feel like people want ChloroDrought and Fletch gone but ChloroDrought is lulz as it seems so easy to win the three Chloro users if Vulpix is taken down as most teams do not carry another sun setter and seem to sac their Vulpix as well. Fletch is good for taking on said ChloroDrought and I feel like if it were to leave, ChloroDrought would end up being banned because of it. As for Missy, I believe it is very centralizing as a whole because of what The Avalanches said. Her sheer versatility and the fact that she is an S-mon kind of gives evidence as to how good Missy truly is. Other than Missy, I cannot see at the moment anything threatening enough to be suspected, :/

 

[boo836]

Honestly I just want Fletch gone because it makes the Meta so goddamn stale. It's easy to stop, but it holds too many strategies and pokemon (ie chlorodrought) back. Whereas Misdreavus is a ridiculous pain in the ass to beat, Fletch just commands the meta. Honestly, It's dpp scizor on roids. L The meta seems way too focused on fletch checks (both using them and being them) to the point where it really isn't healthy. I urge we at least try a Fletchless meta And revisit its suspect at a later time.

 

[brizz]

So yeah, since I've already got reqs I thought I would share my two cents with you n_n
In my opinion, these are the unhealthiest pokemon for the current metagame:

Misdreavus
That thing is just insane. It seems to me that it has only a few viable sets, but you just cannot deal with all of them the same way. For example, Lickitung (one of the best switch-ins for Missy) can easily stomach any damage from a Wisp + 3 Atks variant, but is wrecked by a TrickSpecs set.
As regards boosting sets (NP + 3 atks/SubNP) I think that they are just unbalanced. Most switch-ins take huge damage from the coverage moves (DGleam/HP Fight), while the rest of the metagame is just destroyed by Shadow Ball. Such a huge coverage is nowhere near to be affected by 4mss, as Ghost + Fight is just too good.
At last, I think that Misdreavus is hard to revengekill as well, due to Substitute and Will-o-Wisp. Most revengekillers (Pawniard/Houndour) also have to deal with those nasty 50/50s (Sucker Punch is not a very reliable move, if you ask me). Oh, and yes, these "pivot" sets have high durability thanks to Berry Juice and can come in at late game to cause further damage.

Fletchling
Bird is another huge threat, in my opinion. Most switch-ins are easily trapkilled by Diglett, which can easily come in thanks to Fletchling's U-Turn. The only check that can be used is Archen and, you know...

+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archen: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Many sets also run Overheat and/or Roost to cause some damage at mid game (it's incredible how many Ferroseed stay in on Fletching, expecting to take a hit and rack off some damage...or how many Pawniard try to switch in just to get rocked.
The only thing many teams can do to actually stop Fletching is to set-up SR and pray (Drillbur and Archen are pretty effective hazards remover, by the way).

Mienfoo
I don't think Mienfoo is actually broken, but it just hurts me how this little thing never dies. Even if you run a Life Orb set, reducing Mienfoo's durability, you'll live enough to come in at late game and finish off the game. But you should probably switch in at mid game to open huge holes in the opponent's team...

---

In the end, I still am not sure what to vote for the Suspect Process. Yet, I think that all of the aforementioned pokemons don't have much of a role in keeping the metagame balanced (yeah, I will probably expand this in the official thread...)

n_n

 

[Rowan]

North, archen runs defense and hp Evs

This goes for everybody, if you're gonna use calcs to make a point, don't use sub-optimal ev spreads

Not to mention the fact that there is a more defensive eviolite set that archen can run, not just the berry juice one