Milotic [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

n10siT

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[OVERVIEW]

Milotic's access to Competitive allows it to be a great counter to Intimidate users, such as Landorus-T and Scrafty. Further aided by its access to Recover granting it the ability to stay on the field for longer than most Pokemon, Milotic can be a good niche pick in the Doubles OU metagame.

However, Milotic's poor offensive movepool and resulting lack of coverage leave it walled by common Grass- and Water-types such as Ferrothorn and Rotom-W. Because Milotic needs to heavily invest in its Special Attack and defenses in order to be effective, its base 81 Speed can severely hold it back. Finally, without a boost from Competitive, Milotic lacks the offensive presence found in other Water-types such as Keldeo.

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Protect
item: Life Orb
ability: Competitive
nature: Modest
evs: 72 HP / 80 Def / 188 SpA / 168 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Hydro Pump is Milotic's best STAB move, letting it do serious damage to most Rock-, Ground-, and Fire-types, such as Mega Diancie, Landorus-T, and Heatran, as well as good damage to neutral targets. Ice Beam allows Milotic to hit Flying- and Grass-types such as Thundurus and Amoonguss super effectively. Recover allows Milotic to have a reliable way to recover its health, a trait missed out on by many other Water-types, notably Suicune and Keldeo. Protect allows Milotic to scout for moves, stall out opposing speed control, and avoid taking damage while its partner handles a threat.

Set Details
========

Competitive sharply boosts Milotic's Special Attack every time one of its stats is lowered, allowing it to take advantage of certain abilities and moves such as Intimidate and Snarl. Life Orb increases Milotic's damage output, giving it some much-needed extra power. The Special Attack EVs provided allow Milotic to OHKO 4 HP Bisharp with Hydro Pump at +0 and 4 HP Mega Kangaskhan while at +2. The given Speed EVs let Milotic outspeed neutral-natured, fully invested, base 70 Speed Pokemon, particularly Bisharp. The remaining HP and Defense EVs allow Milotic to survive Adamant Mega Kangaskhan's Return.

Usage Tips
========

Milotic is a good option to choose as a lead if the opponent has an Intimidate user such as the very common Landorus-T. There are two different situations in which it is optimal to switch in Milotic. One is when you have two threatening physical attackers on the field and the opponent is going to bring in their Intimidate user to try to lower their Attack. The other situation is when your opponent is going to go for Icy Wind or Snarl, which Milotic takes little damage from and can use to activate Competitive. Remember to take into account that Milotic will only be affected by Intimidate if it comes onto the field before the Intimidate user.

Team Options
========

Milotic requires a decent amount of support, so there are a good number of teammate options to keep in mind when using it. For starters, Pokemon that benefit from not having to fear Intimidate are great partners for Milotic, such as Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Diancie, and Landorus-T. Many Grass-type Pokemon, such as Ferrothorn and Ludicolo, are good checks to Milotic, so having a Pokemon to beat them is also beneficial. A good choice to fulfill this role is Talonflame, as it also benefits from Milotic's deterrence of Intimidate users. Opposing Water-types, such as Keldeo and Rotom-W, will also cause trouble for Milotic, as they resist both of its attacks. Good options to beat them are Grass-types such as Serperior and Electric-types such as Thundurus and Zapdos. Lastly, Milotic will benefit heavily from the speed control provided by Tailwind users such as Talonflame, Zapdos, and Latios.

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Icy Wind / Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Protect
item: Sitrus Berry / Leftovers / Safety Goggles
ability: Competitive
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 24 SpA / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Scald is Milotic's most reliable STAB move, as it has 100% accuracy, decent power, and a 30% chance to burn the target. Icy Wind provides speed control and can also do good spread damage when Milotic has a Competitive boost. Alternatively, Ice Beam enables Milotic to hit Flying- and Grass-types such as Thundurus and Amoonguss for much greater super effective damage. Icy Wind should be used on teams that require the speed control granted by the move, but Ice Beam is a stronger option on teams that already have speed control options in place. Recover gives Milotic reliable recovery, allowing it to stick around longer and continue to check Intimidate users and provide speed control. Protect allows Milotic to scout for moves, stall out opposing speed control, and avoid taking damage while its partner handles a threat.

Set Details
========

The Special Attack EVs allow Milotic to 2HKO Mega Kangaskhan with Scald at +2 and OHKO Landorus-T with Ice Beam when unboosted. The Speed EVs let Milotic outspeed uninvested Rotom formes. Milotic's HP is maximized and the remaining EVs are put into Defense to maximize its bulk. Sitrus Berry provides instant recovery, which is especially handy against Mega Kangaskhan due to the possibility Parental Bond activating it between hits. Leftovers is an alternative that gives Milotic permanent passive recovery, which can help later in the game as Milotic attempts to stall out opposing Pokemon. Another option is Safety Goggles, which grants Milotic an immunity to Spore and lets it ignore redirection from Rage Powder, allowing Milotic to improve its matchup against Grass-types by avoiding sleep and attacking its intended target.

Usage Tips
========

Switching Milotic in when you think the opponent's Intimidate user is going to come in is a good way to get a Competitive boost. Milotic can also switch in on an Icy Wind or Snarl and gain a Competitive boost that way. A +2 Special Attack boost can turn Milotic into a very capable offensive threat that the opponent has to deal with immediately, which can provide an incredible momentum swing in any game. Milotic's bulk, access to recovery, and ability to burn foes with Scald are all very valuable for the mid- and late-game. Milotic can stall out foes with Recover and Scald, allowing you to win games even when you are down or when Milotic isn't in a particularly favorable matchup. The speed control granted by Icy Wind will prove to be consistently valuable as the game goes on into the mid- and late-game, so it is smart to not let Milotic get KOed in the early-game.

Team Options
========

Physical attackers such as Landorus-T and Mega Kangaskhan benefit from Milotic's deterrence of Intimidate users. Strong attackers with average speed such as Mega Gardevoir and Hoopa-Unbound benefit from the speed control provided by Milotic's Icy Wind. Milotic will also need teammates like Talonflame and Breloom that can defeat the Pokemon that can do big damage to it while taking very little damage from its attacks, such as Ferrothorn and Rotom-W. In return, these two appreciate Milotic's ability to discourage Intimidate users from switching in.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Milotic can run Toxic to beat bulky Pokemon it would otherwise have trouble damaging, such as Suicune and Cresselia. Hidden Power Electric is another coverage option for that can be run on the offensive set with no extra investment or on the defensive set with 136 Special Attack EVs to always OHKO 252 HP Gyarados with a Competitive boost. However, this causes Milotic to miss out on using a generally much better move, such as Ice Beam or Recover. Mirror Coat can help patch up Milotic's sparse coverage options and makes use of its naturally high Special Defense, allowing it to take a foe's special attack and return it at the attacker for double the damage, but again, Milotic misses out on running a more reliable move. Milotic can run Choice Scarf to catch opponents by surprise. This set would be best run with a moveset of Scald / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Icy Wind and an EV spread of 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe with a Modest nature, which would allow Milotic to outspeed Mega Lucario while maximizing its damage output and bolstering its bulk. However, using Choice Scarf locks Milotic into one move and forces it to miss out on utility options like Recover and Protect. Another item option for Milotic is Rocky Helmet, allowing it to punish physical attackers. Milotic can also hold a Maranga Berry in order to gain a +1 Special Defense boost when it is hit by a special attack, allowing it to take hits from and stall out even the strongest special attackers in the Doubles OU metagame. However, these two items lack the overall reliability and utility of the ones listed in the main sets, as the former can sometimes activate only a few times in a game, while the latter may not activate at all.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Typing Advantage**: Electric-types, bulky Grass-types, and opposing Water-types can cause a lot of trouble for Milotic. Thundurus can hit it with Thunderbolt or Taunt and is bulky enough to take an unboosted Ice Beam. Certain Grass-types such as Ferrothorn, Ludicolo, and Mega Venusaur take neutral damage from Ice Beam and can KO Milotic with their STAB moves. Water types such as Rotom-W and Keldeo totally wall Milotic and can do big damage to it in return. Kyurem-B is another special case, as with its good defensive typing and bulk, it can handle any of Milotic's attacks with ease, and Milotic is generally going to be Substitute bait for Kyurem-B unless it has a Competitive boost.

**Speed**: With its unremarkable base 81 Speed, Milotic is outsped by most of the top Pokemon in the Doubles OU metagame, and Pokemon with a lower base Speed can invest enough Speed EVs to outspeed it. There also isn't much room for investment without giving up some much-needed bulk. Notably, many common Electric- and Grass-types will be faster than Milotic, namely Serperior, Choice Scarf Rotom formes, Thundurus, and Ludicolo.

**Weather**: Sun halves the damage of Milotic's STAB attacks and activates Chlorophyll for Venusaur to take it out. The lingering effects of sun and the fact that Mega Charizard Y and Venusaur can both deal with an unboosted Milotic fairly easily mean that Milotic can be dead weight in many matchups against sun teams.
 
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Idyll

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Just a small comment first since I don't have the time yet to do a full check. You should make it 44 Speed EVs. You only need that much to creep no-investment Washtom. We don't do the "this mon might creep this too so ill creep them too" kind of creep, since it sets a bad precedent and if we do that, analysis will ultimately just lead to this mon adding 4 Spe, you running 4 Spe to beat them again... etc. which is just dumb. Make this change please.
 

n10siT

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Just a small comment first since I don't have the time yet to do a full check. You should make it 44 Speed EVs. You only need that much to creep no-investment Washtom. We don't do the "this mon might creep this too so ill creep them too" kind of creep, since it sets a bad precedent and if we do that, analysis will ultimately just lead to this mon adding 4 Spe, you running 4 Spe to beat them again... etc. which is just dumb. Make this change please.
Done, thanks.
 

shaian

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okay kamikaze17, Memoric, and SpaceBass ya'll wanna help me figure out what exactly this thing should be using?

The current spread on the dex is:

Milotic @ Life Orb / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Safeguard / Recover

Benchmarks:
- Max SpA
- Bisharp creep
- HP dump

Possible update:

Milotic @ Life Orb
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 216 HP / 240 SpA / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Safeguard / Recover

Benchmarks:
- Adamant Lando-T under Tailwind
- Always lives Adamant Kangaskhan Return
- SpA dump -> easily OHKO's bulky Kangaskhan with Hydro Pump at +2 (considering Lando-T is a common Kangaskhan partner seems alright?)

+ include the current one n10sit has as a second set?

Edit: ALSO BECAUSE I KNOW KAMI IS READING THIS ATM HOW ABOUT MIRROR COAT SOMEWHERE (and no this was not a checkmater inspired idea)
 
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n10siT

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Another speed option could be catching something that's at -1 considering icy wind. I've been playing with Milotic some and I really don't know which is better, super bulky or offensive. (I also wouldn't be offended if you guys went a different route with this lmao)
 

Pastelle

we're all star stuff
QC, what are your thoughts of slashing Hydro Pump behind Scald? Its kinda the same deal with the Suicune analysis, trade utility for more power. It should be mentioned in here somewhere tho either behind Scald or in OO.

Also the first bullet in Usage Tips should be rephrased to say that if you're expecting the opponent to lead an Intimidater like Lando that you should lead Milotic.

Usage Tips should be more descriptive in general. You explain when to play Milotic, but never how. The big question you're trying to answer is what can Milotic do. Mention some things like play cautiously if Milotic gets a boost to preserve it, don't switch it in on physical attacks due to crappy Defenses, etc.

check with qc before implementing
 

Bughouse

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shaian I support Mirror Coat as I've used it on Suicune (also just stealth edited it into Suicune's OO as well). Fuck Rotom-W.
 

Bughouse

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I've literally never used Milotic so I think I'mma stay outta this one, soz
 

Idyll

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Mirror Coat is OO-worthy at best #tbh

Milo can't really spare any move slots on the bulky variant, as it needs STAB (Scald), Ice-type move, Recover, and Protect. The offensive variant won't run it for obvious reasons.

On another note, imo Icy Wind should be slashed first over Ice Beam. It's more of a supporti-ish mon in general, so helping with speed control is more valued.
 

Idyll

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There should only be one Other Options section and Checks and Counters section for the whole analysis. There should also be only one Overview section, which should talk about Milotic as a whole on how it stands in the metagame, etc. Usage Tips and Team Options also need some beefing up as well, like on Team Options, for example, there are definitely more possible teammates than just those one or two bullets lol.

I heavily recommend that you read this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/writing-doubles-analyses-required-reading.3532153/ It'll tell you what you need to know about writing this baby up more effectively :)
 

Yoda2798

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AM check, make sure to check with QC for implementing, etc.

Overview
  • For the third bullet point mention Milotic also can't do much against opposing Water-types as well.
  • Mention why Milotic can't afford to invest in much speed.
Set (Offensive)
  • Put Recover 3rd slot and Protect 4th slot on first set for OCD consistency with second set :P.
Set Comments (Offensive)
  • For Hydro Pump mention specific targets as well as types, and in particular mention that Hydro Pump allows Milotic to OHKO Heatran IMO.
  • I think "recovery" is probably a more politically correct term than "longevity," as Suicune's bulk arguably gives it more overall longevity than Milotic, especially compared to the offensive set.
Set Details (Offensive)
  • You mean you OHKO Mega Kangaskhan with Hydro Pump at +2 right? You need to make this quite clear :B.
  • Make sure you can spell Kangaskhan correctly please :BB.
  • Explain what Life Orb does.
Usage Tips (Offensive)
  • Mention that opposing Landorus-T are a common lead, making Milotic a great way to deter or counter Lando-T leads.
  • Condense the second bullet point into one sentence IMO, feels a bit unnecessarily long. Mention that Milotic only gets the Competitive boost if it comes in before the Intimidate user, i.e. your physical attacker switches out before the opponent's Pokemon into Landorus-T.
  • For last bullet point, clarify in first sentence that it can swing the momentum of a game. The start of the second sentence should be rephrased IMO, not making a bad play should be a common goal across the whole of Pokemon lol :P. Maybe change to something about waiting for the right situation, and not attempting to get a Competitive boost on risky predictions. Second part of that sentence is fine.
Team Options (Offensive)
  • Change "other" to "opposing", beginners may think Charizard and Ferrothorn are Water-types :B.
  • Since you need to buff this up a bit, in set details you mentioned EVing for Landorus-T under Tailwind, perhaps you could mention some setters which work well with Milotic? :P
Set Comments (Bulky)
  • Same point as above about "longevity".
Set Details (Bulky)
  • Clarify on the calcs a little bit: mention Scald for Kangaskhan and Ice Beam for Landorus-T (also maybe make it quite clear that it's Milotic at +2, not Kang - you would probably do this in the eventual write-up anyways though).
  • Remove mention of Heatran creeping Rotom-W IMO, nearly all Heatran will be absolute minimum speed (Trick Room), 240 speed for Bisharp, or just plain max speed.
  • Explain what Sitrus Berry and Safety Goggles do, and why each would be used over the other.
Usage Tips (Bulky)
  • Same as above about leading and switching-in.
Team Options (Bulky)
  • Same as above about "other" Water-types.
Other Options
  • Mention the disadvantages of the current options, i.e. missing out on coverage/recovery, the berry boost being single-use and lost on switch.
  • Mention Mirror Coat as many people above have said! :P.
Checks and Counters
  • Mention Kyurem-B under Typing Advantage as it can comfortably take any hit from +0 Offensive Milotic, and freely set up subs on bulky sets (Offensive LO Ice beam breaks Kyurem's Substitute). Also, Pokemon are KOed, not killed (don't worry I've made this mistake myself before :B).
  • Give examples of Electric- and Grass-types under the Speed tag! :P

QC's thoughts on mentioning Choice Scarf in Other Options? Laga used it well in SPL, and I'd definitely argue it's more viable than the current things in OO at least.

Also set names could maybe be reworked into something a little that rolls of the tongue a little easier IMO.
 
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Idyll

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Just remove "(Intimidate Check)" from both set names

Overview
  • Rephrase the Icy Wind bullet with something like "Access to Icy Wind lets it x"
  • For the "no room for investment part" say that it's in an awkward Speed tier, which means it can't afford to invest much in Speed without jeopardizing one if its key qualities—its bulk.
  • You need to mention how / why Zard, a Fire-type, exactly walls Milotic. Hint: praise the ___
SD 1
  • Why Competitive? Do tell.
  • Mention that the Speed investment lets it get the jump on standard Rotom-W, too
TO 1
  • Mention MDiancie instead of Landog, Landog isn't exactly a mon that can abuse the (kinda) free reign, due to how it plays, as much as MDiancie, and the latter can DStorm HARD.
  • Same Zard sitch
  • Remove "other" on Water-types
  • Thunder Wave is cool too
Moves 2
  • Reverse the order of Icy Wind and Ice Beam; follow what's on the set.
TO 2
  • Look at TO 1
OO
  • Axe Maranga wtf lol
  • Just say that HP Elec lets it get the swift KO on Gyarados while also giving it coverage against opposing Water-types.
  • Scarf
C&C
  • Waters wall it. Keldeo SSwords, Washtom TBolts.
  • Mention Ferro
  • Saying that its 81 base Speed isn't very good doesn't tell the reader much. Say that its 81 base leaves it outsped to things such as x and y instead.
  • Add an Opposing Weather tag. Mention that sun limits its already underwhelming offensive capabilities by weakening its STAB moves.
Do Yoda's check too. If any overlap (there's only like one iirc), my check takes priority. This would be good for 1/3 after.
 

shaian

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Milotic (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Competitive
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 72 HP / 80 Def / 188 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Recover

This is the offensive Milotic I've been using recently, and I like it much more than the TW speed set because it's not as dependent on speed control (partly because I don't like using Tailwind that much).

Benchmarks:
- Lives a return from kanga
- Bisharp speed
- Spa dump -> OHKOs 4 hp bisharp with hydro pump 100% of the time which is nifty; kanga at +2, everything in between
- LO number
- Shiny looks better

Other stuff:
- Timid works too if you're scared of loom (ohkos loomer easily with ice beam, like 40% chance to ohko standard bisharp)

edit: also for mirror coat 72 hp / 80 spd always lives offensive thund tbolt and ohko back with mirror coat :>
thoughts?
 
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n10siT

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mirror coat is bad and timid is bad

what do less attractive players think about shaians set
 

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