Ladder Mix and Mega

[SpartanMalice]

So I tested Kecleon. After using Protean and using an Altarianite, it transitions to Normal/Fairy, so yeah. Your protean type isn't your permanent type if you mega evolve. I suppose it could still be useful though but then again, it's Kecleon.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

It allows me to use landorus and greninja. There is no reason NOT to do it. Last i checked it was innocent until proven guilty, regardless of the result of a test in a DIFFERENT META.

Believe me, I love greninja, but I don't see any reason to unban them when it just means more work and an even more matchup reliant meta.

 

[thesecondbest]

Believe me, I love greninja, but I don't see any reason to unban them when it just means more work and an even more matchup reliant meta.

OK, so you think it is too good and causes matchup. So then should it be banned from ubers? I'm sorry to get so salty over this but I really see no reason not to, and more work is not a valid reason - it takes ten seconds to fix the code.

 

[xJownage]

Should see his posts in BH suspect

Gut feelings sure justify keeping the most broken of the suspects, but battling subpar players on a shit ladder means BP is broken in a meta full of counterplay to it

This is a tall order in comparison, but can it be made pokes that have their attack doubled by an item hold mawilite/medichamite?

Lets not bring in somebody's opinions from elsewhere, please. It doesn't add anything to your argument and is more of a personal attack than anything else.

OK, so you think it is too good and causes matchup. So then should it be banned from ubers? I'm sorry to get so salty over this but I really see no reason not to, and more work is not a valid reason - it takes ten seconds to fix the code.

-.-
There is something here called metagame stability. If greninja and Landorus don't stabilize the meta, there is no reason to unban them. All that does is set the random precedent of unbanning ubers rather than banning broken threats. Lets not go there, please. Also, it does NOT TAKE 10 SECONDS TO FIX THE CODE. smh

 

[Imperator Romanum]

What are you discussing man? Landorus and Greninja ban? No, they should not be banned. Greninja is far from broken in this metagame and it's a poor pokemon outclassed in general by Keldeo without priority, especially when you can use red orb pokemon. Landorus-T isn't technically outclassed by it faces competition by Landours-Therian as Landorus-T can run Lopunnite and Mega Mewtwo X. Stop this discussion.

Oh and: Baton pass should not even be considered for an unban. Please do not start it.

keep the discussion around Shadow tag

 

[DarkeKnight]

Landorus-T isn't technically outclassed by it faces competition by Landours-Therian as Landorus-T can run Lopunnite and Mega Mewtwo X. Stop this discussion.

Of course Lando-T faces competition with Lando-t. xD

Seriously tho, Shadow Tag really does need to go. In any meta which has anything resembling stall, Shadow Tag is broken. There isn't really a lot stall can do against it.

 

[Ghoul King]

IIRC, there was some discussion in the last thread of unbanning Ubers that relied on their Ability (Landorus-I, Greninga). What happened with that?

Also, what happened with the Mewtwonite X suspect?

It never happened because it was FlameUser64's idea, he's been gone for months, and I'm not particularly enthused about the idea. Like, yeah, we could de-Uber Greninja and it would probably not get all that much out of Mega Stones, but I doubt it would really improve the meta in any meaningful way, and talking it out would take time from more important topics.

Mewtwonite X's suspect test never actually happened, and there's been no particular evidence that Mewtonite X is broken. Maybe at some point we'll go "ohmygod X Pokémon is broken with Mewtwonite X" and come back to the topic, but at the moment there doesn't seem to be any problem.

But why not unban them? Otherwise why not ban Wormadam? It adds nothing to the meta either. At least come up with a better reason to say this. Its arbitrary as to whether they were banned or not. The meta existed when lando was legal. Did you ban it alongside them?

Name a positive impact on the meta that would be provided by making Landorus-Incarnate and Greninja capable of using Mega Stones. Would Greninja even be viable with any Mega Stones? Would Landorus-Incarnate fill any unique, valuable niche via Mega Stones that couldn't be filled by other Pokémon? Would either of them suddenly be able to check or counter threats that are currently difficult to check or counter?

Is there any point to giving them access to Mega Stones, beyond your conviction that they wouldn't be broken? Something to justify the effort?

Because if there isn't, it's not worth bothering.

This is a tall order in comparison, but can it be made pokes that have their attack doubled by an item hold mawilite/medichamite?

While that is an intriguing thought (Replace an item that doubles your Attack with an item that grants you an Ability that doubles your Attack), it's not happening. I'm not adding more special-casing to spread around restricted Mega Stones.

Anyway, my own opinion on Shadow Tag:

Pokémon battle mechanics require switching as a core function. If you remove switching, Pokémon stops working. (This can be seen by looking at several Pokémon imitators, most of which lack a mechanic equivalent to switching and suffer for it) Arena Trap and Magnet Pull are held back by having a comparatively limited pool of Pokémon they can work on, as well as the fact that the Pokémon that get them are themselves deeply flawed. The first point means that your trapper has poor odds of any given opponent even having something on their team that meets all of the following conditions:

-You can trap it at all. (Most notably, being a Ghost type overrules other considerations: Magnezone cannot trap Aegislash)

-Your trapper is a threat to it, rather than being threatened by it.

-The Pokémon you want to trap isn't going to just U-Turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass/Roar/Whirlwind/etc to bypass the trapping.

If no Pokémon on the enemy team fulfills all of these conditions, your trapper is dead weight. This meta-level consideration limits the influence Arena Trap and Magnet Pull can exert on the meta. Magnezone is an illustration of how the metagame leanings influence this consideration: Skarmory is so common on so many teams that Magnezone has good odds of being relevant against any given team, even if you pretend no other Steel type will ever be sensible to trap using Magnezone, to the point that Magnezone is OU-by-usage, primarily on the basis of trapping Skarmory!

The second point (Bad users) means that Arena Trap and Magnet Pull are difficult to abuse even when the opponent has something you would like to trap. Sure, Dugtrio doesn't have to worry about the target escaping, but it's not exactly well equipped to trap and kill things that are actually popular and viable. The most popular Electric types are immune to Arena Trap! About the only semi-viable use of Dugtrio I'm aware of in OU is to have Durant Entrainment Truant onto an opponent and then be hit by an attack by the same opponent in the same turn, triggering Eject Button, bringing in Dugtrio, and then alternating Protect and Hone Claws until you're at +6 and sweep. Which itself requires your opponent not notice you have Durant and Dugtrio and plan appropriately...

Shadow Tag has neither of these limitations. It can trap anything except Ghost types and other Shadow Tag users, and while Wobbuffet is specialized and Gothitelle is a bit underwhelming outside of Shadow Tag, Mega Gengar is fast, hard-hitting, and versatile. (eg it can Perish Trap things it cannot simply brute-force through) Removing switching as an option for your opponent takes away the yomi that is crucial for the Pokémon metagame to function, and on a more immediate, non-abstract level, is the one and only example of a counter in Pokémon being 100% reliable, barring extreme user stupidity. All other counters have to play guessing games -even Pursuit-trapping requires successful prediction. Shadow Tag-based trapping skips all that and goes straight to "You lose a Pokémon". Worse yet, it can cause matches to drag on, such as when Gothitelle PP stalls a Chansey to death -a perfectly played Gothitelle will kill Chansey no matter what the Chansey players does or what the RNG does, but it will take a minimum of 20 turns to complete the process. (16 PP on Seismic Toss, 4 turns minimum of Struggling itself to death) This is not only broken, but is unfun for everyone involved, to the point that in Inverse I have had opponents forfeit just to get out of the experience, and most of my opponents don't even try to delay Chansey's death: they just want it over and done with so they can get back to playing the game. This is horrible, in the vein of Funbro, only you can't put in a sensible clause to prevent it from happening or anything, ala Endless Battle Clause, because this is a valid way of moving toward victory.

So yeah. I'm of the opinion Shadow Tag is dumb and should be banned in every meta ever. I've never seen anyone name a single positive trait it brings to any metagame, either. (Well, mild exception: Shadow Tag on Wobbuffet is kind of necessary for Wobbuffet to not be a complete joke, and is, to the best of my awareness, not broken... but it could just be that Wobbuffet is unpopular and thus whatever broken-ness might be at play is hidden)

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

What are you discussing man? Landorus and Greninja ban? No, they should not be banned. Greninja is far from broken in this metagame and it's a poor pokemon outclassed in general by Keldeo without priority, especially when you can use red orb pokemon. Landorus-T isn't technically outclassed by it faces competition by Landours-Therian as Landorus-T can run Lopunnite and Mega Mewtwo X. Stop this discussion.

Oh and: Baton pass should not even be considered for an unban. Please do not start it.

keep the discussion around Shadow tag

I completely agree, if nothing, this meta is just MORE friendly for baton pass. And no, the discussion isn't about banning them, it's about unbanning them from mega evolving, which I may not be opposed to if it is found that they check some threat or something, or just are a positive force on the meta.

Btw, I have no idea what you are talking about in that last bit of the first paragraph. At all.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Well Jernmax was talking about Landorus-I, although I believe it won't be completely outclassed by Landorus-T. Being slightly faster helps, but rather than Lopunnite, it could opt for a special attack boost, or go mixed with Diancite or something. That 92 -> 101 Spe + higher special attack may be more useful than we think. Although considering it loses Sheer Force, probably one of the reasons it got banned in the first place, and has no way of reobtaining it without Cameruptite, the lack of firepower might hurt this mon. Thundurus and Tornadus probably could abuse special stones far better, as it doesn't get flying stab, unless it uses Salamencite.

I'll give my input on Shadow Tag soon (obviously rooting for the ban). For some reason I thought I already posted about it, hence why I haven't done so already.

 

[Rapier11]

Is Lucaronite banned or being in suspect? I'm gonna try it on Mamoswine or Linoone.

 

[SpartanMalice]

It isn't iirc. I used Lucarionite Mamo on my old team and it still works so, unless I missed something here, it's not in suspect.

 

[Pikachuun]

Oh hell no.

Tagging Pikachuun. Knock Off is not behaving correctly! (And I wouldn't be surprised if, say, Trick isn't behaving correctly either)

And apparently Mewtwo can't use its Mega Stones either. That ain't right.

Mewtwo's an oversight that I forgot to account for when initially making the code, my bad
Knock Off + Trick on things that can mega-evo is definitely a bug (things that cannot mega-evo isn't), I'm looking into this; I have a hunch that the item in onTakeItem is just a string rather than the object I thought it was

EDIT: Fixed both bugs, but you need a mod folder for the second one due to how the mega stone items actually work

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

It isn't iirc. I used Lucarionite Mamo on my old team and it still works so, unless I missed something here, it's not in suspect.

Yeah, I have no idea why they thought that- it's never even been discussed. Lol, I like how whoever that was got banned after 1 message. Noice.

 

[Lukethehedgehog]

Yeah, I have no idea why they thought that- it's never even been discussed. Lol, I like how whoever that was got banned after 1 message. Noice.

It took him 2 weeks to post too.

 

[thdhted]

Alright folks, if you ain't already noticed, go vote for Mix and Mega for
OMOTM. Don't let FU win!

 

[xJownage]

On another note, I am finding pixilate Dragonite unbelievably effective, but I am also finding myself wanting a scarfer like kyogre or something faster. Just something that can revenge the pidgeotite tornaduses of the tier. I think I'm going to start fitting that on my teams, even though espeed spammers seem so much more viable.

 

[Zukrad]

tbh i always wanted mega Shuckle to be the complete opposite where it like breaks out of it's shell to become an insane attacker with 230/130/150 offensive stats (or something along the lines) and a wonderful defensive spread of 20/10/10.

Anyway lol I think a change should be made where mega stones cut off the boosted stats higher than 255, i think this change would make the most sense of any of the suggested changes.

I have always thought that Mega Shuckle should be an Hyper-Offensive Pokémon :P

Also, using Shelll Smash + Sturdy before mega evolving, and then Mega evolve + Protect, and start the destruction!!!!!!

 

[thdhted]

Has anyone been using raikou at all? I've found it to be interestingly effective. The number of stones that it can run are actually surprising. So far stuff that I've looked at are: pidgeotenite,Red Orb, Charizardite, Alterianite, Manecite and more.
Access to extremespeed and pre mega base 85 atk makes it a decent Ate-speeder, alongside moves like Zap Cannon, Aura sphere, and even weather ball make Raikou VERY versatile and unpredictable. Despite being locked into a Rash nature i using any of these moves, raikou manages to be a very strong 'mon imo. The Red orb and Pidgetenite sets are both very deadly when used right. Red orb packs VERY powerful dual STABS of thunderbolt and Weather Ball, and pidgeotenite can become a great cleaner with CM and zap cannon.

 

[canno]

Blue Orb is also an option for Raikou, as it can run Weather Ball, Extreme Speed, and Thunder for some strong destruction. Sadly, it doesn't get STAB on Weather Ball but I think its viable.

Also Raikou might be, like, the only abuser of Abomasnowite. It retains a decent 85 speed, gets BoltBeam with Weather Ball, can still use Espeed because of the attack boost, and still hits hard as hell, not to mention it gets fat bulky. It gets rekt by Red and Blue Orb Pokemon, but it's at least something to at least think about.

 

[gunnervi]

Has anyone tried Glalitite Raikou? Refrigerate Espeed is pretty good coverage, especially coming off of 125 base Attack. It should be significantly better than Raikou's Aurorus set in Inheritance, which I thought was pretty effective. Maybe something like:

Raikou @ Glalitite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty (EDIT: restricted to Rash) Rash Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

 

[xJownage]

Stealing this back.

Mix-and-Mega Viability Rankings!​

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are at the top of mix and mega's metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon are here as top threats and potential Bans due to using multiple megastones easily or just one very well.

S Rank

Mew (Ampharosite, Lopunnite, Diancite)

Victini (Red Orb, Cameruptite, Pidgeotite)

Dragonite (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Salamencite)

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

Blissey (Sablenite, Slowbronite)

Thundurus (Manectite, Pideotite, Altarianite)

Kyurem (Glalitite, Diancite, Aggronite, Absolite, Sablenite, Camerupite, Pinsirite)

Terrakion (Lucarionite, Diancite, Pinsirite)

Archeops (Aerodactylite, Charizardite X, Pinsirite, Salamencite, Lucarionite)

Gengar (Gengarite, Absolite, Manectite, Diancite, Pidgeotite)

Landorus-T (Lopunnite, Mewtwonite X, Altarianite, Salamencite)

A Rank:

Ferrothorn (Blue Orb)

Diggersby (Medichamite)

Keldeo (Lucarionite, Blue Orb, Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)

Mamoswine (Lucarionite)

Manaphy (Sceptilite, Absolite)

Tornadus (Pidgeotite)

Azumarill (Mawilite, Medichamite)

Lucario (Altarianite, Pinsirite)

Zygarde (Altarianite, Pinsirite)

A- Rank:

Heatran (Latiasite, Absolite, Pidgeotite, Red Orb, Altarianite, Cameruptite)

Entei (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Aerodactylite, Red Orb)

Groudon-P

Blaziken (Blazikenite)

Gyarados (Salamencite, Pinsirite, Sceptilite, Blue Orb)

Arceus-N

Weavile (Glalitite, Aerodactylite)

Latios(Altarianite, Sceptilite, Manectite, Absolite, Lucarionite)

Noivern (Gardevoirite, Pidgeotite, Salamencite)

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Mix-and-Mega metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B Rank

Roserade (Red Orb, Scizorite, Pidgeotite)

Flygon (Pinsirite, Altarianite)

Kangaskhan (Kangaskhanite)

Metagross (Diancite, Metagrossite, Cameruptite, Latiosite, Lucarionite, Aerodactylite)

Tyranitar (Sharpedonite, Steelixite, Garchompite, Diancite, Pinsirite, Salamencite)

Lucario (Pinsirite, Altarianite)

Staraptor (Lopunnite, Pinsirite, Mewtwonite X, Aerodactylite)

Suicune (Aggronite, Slowbronite, Sceptilite, Blue Orb)

Snorlax (Banettite, Galladite, Metagrossite)

Cobalion (Aerodactylite, Lucarionite, Galladite)

Mienshao (Lopunny, Altarianite, Pinsirite, Aerodactylite)

Porygon-Z (Diancite, Altarianite, Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)

Garchomp (Gyaradosite, Diancite, Banettite, Scizorite)

Latias

/

Giratina (O)

Salamence (Salamencite, Pinsirite)

Gothitelle (Gengarite)

Hippowdon (Sablenite, Slowbronite)

Alakazam (Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)

Zapdos (Sablenite, Manectite)

Rypherior (Heracronite)

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

C Rank

Bisharp (Metagrossite)

Hydreigon (Blastoisinite, Manectite, Gardevoirite)

Togekiss (Gardevoirite)

Infernape (Banettite, Diancite)

Gorebyss (Banettite)

Shaymin (Lucarionite, Manectite)

Chandelure (Red Orb, Cameruptite)

Arcanine

Goodra (Ampharosite, Gardevoirite)

Kyurem (Abomasite, Glalitite)

Haxorus (Gyaradosite, Metagrossite, Aerodactylite)

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

Still up for noms because I couldn't decide:

Mega Mawile ---> A-?
Suicune?
Meloetta?
Rhypherior stones?
Mesprit?

I think its getting pretty complete at this point. If there are any mons i missed tell me, and please, i am sure there are TONS of viable mega stones missing.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Mega Mawile

I could easily see this going to something like A rank, it's immensely bulky with its regular stone and if you want to opt for a faster more powerful version you can run Medichamite, giving it 125 attack, 770 attack roughly. Though Primal groudon and anything with a red orb sucks, so it's actually got reliable counters in this metagame.

Suicune

Suicune could go S rank to be honest, between Slowbronite and Sablenite it's either impossible to muscle through or impossible to reliably deal with. I mean...

252+ Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 108-127 (26.7 - 31.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unfortunately Scald isn't reliably in this metagame, so ice beam is generally more useful imo.

Meloetta

Huh... I forgot about her. Alakazamite, Diancite, Gardevoirite, Lopunnite, Sableinite and Absolite are all options. Even pidgeotite. Unsure about where we should rank her though

Nominating Hippowdown for A+

Hippowdon @ Red Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

Hippowdown is probably the best defensive user of Red orb. It has one weakness and amazing bulk, if running a mixed defensive spread it's a counter to Victini which is huge. It takes very little from v-create, even in sun. It has a large varied movepool capable of preforming numerous roles, and it's far from passive with both fire stab and ground stab, a combo which is near unresisted.

Read this

Can the mods be really restrictive with the types of post, in linked there would be pages with one liners and silly jokes. It makes the thread looks horrendous and generally clutters it up

 

[frogstomperful]

Rhyperior
Among Rhyperior's biggest headaches are its bad Special Defense and its Ground/Rock typing which gives it six painful weaknesses, two of them doubled.

New typing stones
Ampharosite / Sceptilite / Charizardite X -> Ground/Dragon (3 weaknesses: double Ice, Dragon, Fairy)
Pinsirite -> Ground/Flying (2 weaknesses: double Ice, Water)
Altarianite / Audinite -> Ground/Fairy (4 weaknesses: Water, Grass, Ice, Steel)
Aggronite -> Ground/Steel (4 weaknesses: Water, Fire, Fighting, Ground)
Lopunnite / Mewtwonite X -> Ground/Fighting (6 weaknesses: Water, Grass, Ice, Flying, Psychic, Fairy)
Red Orb -> Ground/Fire (2 weaknesses: double Water [negated], Ground)

Some of those are clearly better than base Rhyperior; others are more questionable. If anything else not listed gives a typing change, say so. Some of these will help patch its Special Defense; others won't. Rhyperior also lacks healing (last I checked) but its typing seems a bigger hindrance.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Mega Mawile ---> A-?
Suicune?
Meloetta?
Rhypherior stones?
Mesprit?

I think its getting pretty complete at this point. If there are any mons i missed tell me, and please, i am sure there are TONS of viable mega stones missing.

How is mawile A- worthy? It's a C in Ubers, and it's has checks EVERYWHERE that aren't in Ubers, and I don't feel it gains hardly anything from this meta other than the ability to have 20 greater Spe and Atk, and yet it's still SUPER slow, especially for an offensive mon.

Suicune I can totally support moving up to A for now, possibly higher, but that seems like a safe spot.

I seriously think Lucario deserves an A. It has SO much going for it. Despite its relatively low attack, it is the fastest Atespeeder bar arcanine, as entei has to run an Adamant nature to have access to Espeed. It is also the only steel-type w/ Espeed (which works well w/ the types the ate-stones give), and the only Ekiller w/ access to swords dance.

Rhyperior, idk. I think there is probably some some serious potential, but nothing comes to mind immediately.

Melloetta is a little clunky, depending on the set, but it can easily destroy stuff, in part because of its form change (ironically, it's also the reason it's kinda clunky), and partially just because of its solid stats. I don't know where to rank it atm.

I'd say mesprit is a lot better on the surface than it really is. It is outclassed overall by the other two of its trio, as it's the slowest of the three, and it lacks the commitment to a niche that the other two have. I considered trying it, but it's just too vanilla for this meta. What I mean is, basically, due to power creep, the most successful stuff have stats designed to fulfill a set role, as the lack of items would otherwise make most things outclassed by the majority of Ubers. Mesprit is not really designed for any one thing. It probably deserves a rank, but not all that high.

 

[Ghoul King]

Implemented Mega Stone viability rankings in the OP with Lukethehedgehog's help.

Can't copy/paste xJownage's latest version of the Pokémon Viability Rankings. :(

The Council will be voting on Shadow Tag in 2 days, given the lack of discussion. Anybody who has anything else to say, say it before then.

Still up for noms because I couldn't decide:

Mega Mawile ---> A-?
Suicune?
Meloetta?
Rhypherior stones?
Mesprit?

Mega Mawile gets a boost in firepower through Medichamite, not to mention Speed, but I have difficulty imagining it being much more highly ranked than whatever it is in Ubers -maybe even less, due to all the other things running around.

No commentary on Suicune. Haven't seen it in action, and have never fully understood what factors lead to it being so powerful in so many OMs.

No commentary on Meloetta. I dunno where its utility lies relative to other Pokémon -it can presumably do shenanigans with Pirouette Forme, but these seem gimmicky and unhelpful, and otherwise it has to compare to myriad other Psychic types. Is the added Normal typing worthwhile? It does provide immunity to Ghost... dunno.

Rhyperior obviously appreciates all the type-changing Mega Stones. Too bad there's no type-changing Mega Stone with Regenerator to grant it healing...

I don't see what you'd use Mesprit for. It's generally going to be outclassed by Azelf or Uxie in any given role you try to build it for, not even looking at other, less similar Pokémon.

Nominating Hippowdown for A+

Hippowdon @ Red Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

Hippowdown is probably the best defensive user of Red orb. It has one weakness and amazing bulk, if running a mixed defensive spread it's a counter to Victini which is huge. It takes very little from v-create, even in sun. It has a large varied movepool capable of preforming numerous roles, and it's far from passive with both fire stab and ground stab, a combo which is near unresisted.

... oh wow, Hippowdon actually getting use out of Fire Fang in a meta. Huh. Lets it potentially beat Skarmory, in fact.

4 Atk Hippowdon (Red Orb) Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, Skarmory can, in turn, be running its own Mega Stones -Sablenite, say- but this is pretty impressive, when normally Skarmory can essentially ignore Hippowdon! And this is from a Physically Defensive Hippowdon, at that. A lot more bite than I was really expecting from it, honestly.