Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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Freeroamer

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erm why have you quoted "After all, one of the beauties of monotype is learning to die because of your weaknesses." I assume that's just a typo lol, because it completely changes the point of the post.

Erm the thing is, like I said, before actually inviting discussion on any one particular thing, we need to establish a baseline for exactly what we construe as 'broken', because at the moment we all seem to be approaching it from different directions and this is causing almost as much argument as the actual pokemon we're talking about. If I go on the concrete bans we've already made, namely the Talonflame and Damp Rock on Water bans, these were banned because it was felt that they made several matchups almost close to unwinnable for a skilled player against another skilled player, even if both brought well-built teams. I think the last part of that argument is particularly crucial where it talks about skilled players with good teams, as in the majority, while you will always have negative matchups in Monotype, skilled players should always have a chance in any matchup. If it's one thing singlehandedly by itself that's causing several matchups to be unplayable or close to, then I believe that this is fair game for a suspect test. The two things that I find fit into this category at the moment are Kyurem-W and Mega Medicham, the latter particularly on Psychic monotype teams, as they both fit the argument above in that they singlehandedly tear several Monotype teams apart and skew the chances massively towards one player. This is regardless of anything the other player does unless they ridiculously overspecialize, meaning their team will be weak in the metagame overall, as overspecialization generally tends to open your team up to a whole host of threats while only insuring against a singular threat, or a group of threats. Nowhere is this more true in Monotype, where teams generally rely on being diverse to try and cover their weaknesses(and in most cases they still can't).
 
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erm why have you quoted "After all, one of the beauties of monotype is learning to die because of your weaknesses." I assume that's just a typo lol, because it completely changes the point of the post.

Erm the thing is, like I said, before actually inviting discussion on any one particular thing, we need to establish a baseline for exactly what we construe as 'broken', because at the moment we all seem to be approaching it from different directions and this is causing almost as much argument as the actual pokemon we're talking about. If I go on the concrete bans we've already made, namely the Talonflame and Damp Rock on Water bans, these were banned because it was felt that they made several matchups almost close to unwinnable for a skilled player against another skilled player, even if both brought well-built teams. I think the last part of that argument is particularly crucial, where it talks about skilled players with good teams, as in the majority, while you will always have negative matchups in Monotype skilled players should always have a chance in any matchup. If it's one thing singlehandedly by itself that's causing several matchups to be unviable, then I believe that this is fair game for a suspect test. The two things that I find fit into this category at the moment are Kyurem-W and Mega Medicham, the latter particularly on Psychic monotype teams, as they both fit the argument above, in that they singlehandedly tear several Monotype teams apart and skew the chances massively towards one player, regardless of anything the other player does unless they ridiculously overspecialize, meaning their team will be weak in the metagame overall, as overspecialization generally tends to open your team up to a whole host of threats while only insuring against a singular threat, or a group of threats. Nowhere is this more true in Monotype, where teams generally rely on being diverse to try and cover their weaknesses(and in most cases they still can't).
I agree with everything you said, but I personally think that Lando-I warrants a suspect test as well. 101 speed lets it outspeed base 100s (most notably, Mew). It has the coverage to hit everything hard, and it's like a Nidoking on steroids. IIRC videogambeas1 has a pastebin of some calcs on how powerful it is. It's late, and I'm too lazy to say much, but I have arguments to support a suspect test.
 
I agree with everything you said, but I personally think that Lando-I warrants a suspect test as well. 101 speed lets it outspeed base 100s (most notably, Mew). It has the coverage to hit everything hard, and it's like a Nidoking on steroids. IIRC videogambeas1 has a pastebin of some calcs on how powerful it is. It's late, and I'm too lazy to say much, but I have arguments to support a suspect test.
I agree that Lando-I has extremely advantageous Matchups ups against several Types, such as Steel, Poison, Fairy, and even Electric, and thus warrants a Suspect Test along side Medicham-Mega (Psychic only), Kyurem-W, and arguably Shaymin-Sky. However, this only applies to Flying, because unlike Ground Flying can literally Support in every way it needs, whereas it shares enough common Weaknesses to limit it's potential. For example, Ice Shard users such as Mamoswine and Weavile can actually be handled by Skarmory on Flying, whereas Ground Teams would be pressured.
 
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scpinion

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referring to Talonflame and Damp rock:
...they made several matchups almost close to unwinnable for a skilled player against another skilled player, even if both brought well-built teams. I think the last part of that argument is particularly crucial where it talks about skilled players with good teams, as in the majority, while you will always have negative matchups in Monotype, skilled players should always have a chance in any matchup.
This is the criteria we should build from. It adequately describes the logic behind banning Aegislash and Genesect from Steel as well. Aegislash because a battle with steel could be won just by switching through an incredibly powerful immunity core of OU Pokemon, almost irregardless of type matchup. While the Genesect+Heatran combo could overwhelm a wide variety of types.

Those are type-specific bans; so for comparison, Aegislash does not cause any of these problems on a Ghost mono because it lacks a stable of OU 'mons behind it and a Bug-team can only switch into powerful fire-type attacks a couple times before the core breaks. Although very useful on those teams, they are certainly beatable with strategies available to almost every type.

Going by these criteria, Mega-Medicham should be up for suspect on a Psychic team (Fighting lacks the defensive presence to make it OP).

Mega-Mawile should go up too. I do not see much difference between Mega-Mawile on Fairy and Steel. It sweeps many teams at +2 regardless of what's behind it and both types have strong cores to support it with. Fairy is still going to be powerful without it, same can be said for Steel.

Lando-I I'm not sure I agree with...we certainly cannot take it away from a Ground team!
On Flying, I view it much like Greninja or Kyu-B, but perhaps worse (I'm really undecided on this one). It can wreck Steel (Earth Power+Focus Blast), Poison (Psychic+Earth Power), Fairy (Sludge Wave+Earth Power), Flying and Electric (Gravity+Earth Power), all while serving as a scary setup sweeper with Rock Polish. That is certainly enough types to meet the "several" criteria. However, like Greninja, we have another case of 4MSS where it cannot do all this in one set...

I'm really curious to hear other opinions on Lando-I. It doesn't feel broken to me, but seems to meet the criteria. I think, the key point in this discussion is going to be "a skilled player against another skilled player". Currently, I'm swaying toward no ban, but that certainly isn't set in stone.

All in all, I do not think we should go down the road of banning something just because it wrecks one type. After all, one of the beauties of monotype is learning to deal with your weaknesses.


Edit: Sniped by Enoch on the list of types Lando-I can put in work against...doesn't change anything though.
 
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Freeroamer

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You see, I don't know if it's because I've used it a lot, but I find that some of the types that you have listed as finding Landorus problematic all have viable checks to it apart from Steel, Rock and Poison, which I admit are steamrolled by it. I'll start with the most viable and work through to the least.

Electric: SpDef Zapdos, SpDef Rotom-W, Mega-Manectric, Thundurus, Scarf Rotom-W

Flying: SpDef Zapdos, SpDef Dragonite(One of the best checks in the game barring HP Ice variants, which are extremely rare in Monotype), Scarfed Thundurus-Therian, Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, SpDef Gliscor, Articuno

Fairy: Azumarill(Any set at all takes a huge chunk out with A Jet), Mega Gardevoir+Sylveon(both can tank a Sludge Wave and respond with their Hyper Voices) and while it's not a check in the conventional sense, I'm going to list Klefki here as it can throw up a quick Light Screen, allowing one of the aforementioned Pokes deal with it easier.

Ok, now Poison has a couple, but they're a bit shakier

Poison: Offensive Gengar(often carries HP Ice on it's LO sets), Scarf Nidoking(can put it down with an Ice Beam)

All of those types have checks which I feel are viable, and while I'm not interested in restarting the Greninja discussion, I'd say that's better than say Greninja vs Ground, Keldeo vs Rock, Ground and Ice, p. much every commonly used Fighting type againt Ice(with the exception of Breloom), Scizor vs Ice, Ferrothorn vs Water
 

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You see, I don't know if it's because I've used it a lot, but I find that some of the types that you have listed as finding Landorus problematic all have viable checks to it apart from Steel, Rock and Poison, which I admit are steamrolled by it. I'll start with the most viable and work through to the least.

Electric: SpDef Zapdos, SpDef Rotom-W, Mega-Manectric, Thundurus, Scarf Rotom-W

Flying: SpDef Zapdos, SpDef Dragonite(One of the best checks in the game barring HP Ice variants, which are extremely rare in Monotype), Scarfed Thundurus-Therian, Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, SpDef Gliscor, Articuno

Fairy: Azumarill(Any set at all takes a huge chunk out with A Jet), Mega Gardevoir+Sylveon(both can tank a Sludge Wave and respond with their Hyper Voices) and while it's not a check in the conventional sense, I'm going to list Klefki here as it can throw up a quick Light Screen, allowing one of the aforementioned Pokes deal with it easier.

Ok, now Poison has a couple, but they're a bit shakier

Poison: Offensive Gengar(often carries HP Ice on it's LO sets), Scarf Nidoking(can put it down with an Ice Beam)

All of those types have checks which I feel are viable, and while I'm not interested in restarting the Greninja discussion, I'd say that's better than say Greninja vs Ground, Keldeo vs Rock, Ground and Ice, p. much every commonly used Fighting type againt Ice(with the exception of Breloom), Scizor vs Ice, Ferrothorn vs Water
SpDef Zapdos is 2HKO'd by rock slide which isn't all that uncommon and can't do much in return aside from toxic, heat wave that barely 3HKO's, or HP Ice that does not OHKO. Articuno and Mega Charizard Y are OHKO'd by rock slide as well. Azumarill can't OHKO with aqua jet, not even with a band, while it is easily OHKO'd by Sludge Wave; Mega Gardevoir is OHKO'd after stealth rock; Sylveon is 2HKO'd and can't OHKO in return






252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 387-458 (97.2 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 250-294 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sylveon
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 255-302 (66.5 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

Freeroamer

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You do make a fair argument, and those calcs back it up.

But then you can come back to the argument of 4MSS, if I talk from a Ground type's users viewpoint, I see Earth Power and Psychic as irreplaceable due to the Mega-Venu weakness you carry otherwise and obviously Earth Power is STAB and just smashes stuff. This leaves you 2 slots for Gravity, Sludge Wave, Rock Slide and HP Ice. This doesn't even include niche options such as U-Turn, Grass Knot, Substitute, Knock Off and even the two boosting moves it has access to, Calm Mind and Rock Polish. The point I'm trying to make, is that it's very rare that if you bring a well built team, that the Landorus will be carrying a set that smashes through your team if you prepare for it appropriately. I've always said that it's a top tier threat, akin to the likes of Keldeo and Mega-Charizard-X rather than being a broken threat.
 
You see, I don't know if it's because I've used it a lot, but I find that some of the types that you have listed as finding Landorus problematic all have viable checks to it apart from Steel, Rock and Poison, which I admit are steamrolled by it. I'll start with the most viable and work through to the least.

Electric: SpDef Zapdos, SpDef Rotom-W, Mega-Manectric, Thundurus, Scarf Rotom-W

Flying: SpDef Zapdos, SpDef Dragonite(One of the best checks in the game barring HP Ice variants, which are extremely rare in Monotype), Scarfed Thundurus-Therian, Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, SpDef Gliscor, Articuno

Fairy: Azumarill(Any set at all takes a huge chunk out with A Jet), Mega Gardevoir+Sylveon(both can tank a Sludge Wave and respond with their Hyper Voices) and while it's not a check in the conventional sense, I'm going to list Klefki here as it can throw up a quick Light Screen, allowing one of the aforementioned Pokes deal with it easier.

Ok, now Poison has a couple, but they're a bit shakier

Poison: Offensive Gengar(often carries HP Ice on it's LO sets), Scarf Nidoking(can put it down with an Ice Beam)

All of those types have checks which I feel are viable, and while I'm not interested in restarting the Greninja discussion, I'd say that's better than say Greninja vs Ground, Keldeo vs Rock, Ground and Ice, p. much every commonly used Fighting type againt Ice(with the exception of Breloom), Scizor vs Ice, Ferrothorn vs Water
The Lando-I Set that came to mind when speaking about it's strong Matchups is the Gravity/Sludge Wave/Earth Power/Psychic Set, which can turn a Check into the Check'ed by taking advantage of a Switch and removing it's Ground Immunity. This is the case with Electric (and Steel) especially. Here are some counter-examples using the examples you Posted:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 351-416 (91.4 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 312-369 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As for Poke's that soar above it's Speed Tier I mention that "Flying can literally Support in every way it needs", which is hardly an exaggeration, as both Manectric-Mega, Scarf Rotom-Wash, and non-Nasty Plot Thundurus can be handled by SDef Zapdos among other miscellaneous Checks, whereas Charizard-Mega-X (which btw can kill the few things Lando-I can't) loves to Set Up on Thundurus-T. And if put in a situation where the Electric user is utilizing Trick Scarf Rotom or Nasty Plot Thundurus, it's always a possibility for the Flying user to predict the Trick and Pivot to their Mega or hard Switch to their Scarver and net the KO, only to have it's Paralysis Heal Bell'ed by Togekiss later in the game. These scenarios also apply to Poison's LO Gengar, as-

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zapdos: 172-203 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

- = Can Switch In w/o SR's and Roost Stall. As for Fairy, I don't think I need Calcs to prove that Skarmory can Tank an Aqua Jet and reply to a potential Belly Drum with Whirlwind if need be. But as for Sylveon and Gardevoir-Mega, both are overshadowed by the standard Fairy Line-Up of Klefki, Togekiss, Mawile-Mega, Azumarill, Scarf Gardevoir, and Clefable, in case they are even relevant, let it be said that neither can Switch In, essentially forcing the Fairy player to sack something only to be played around by Flying's Support, which is the purpose behind a Flying specific Lando-I Suspect Test. As for Light Screen Klefki, in the short run your safe, but in the long run again Flying's Support can play around it until the 7 Turns have expired.

Why Flying was even assumed to be one of the Types I mentioned to struggle against Lando-I, idk, maybe you misread, but I only mentioned "Steel, Poison, Fairy, and [even] Electric". I don't think Steel can even be disputed after mentioning Gravity, as even SDef Ferrothorn is unsafe from Lando's mighty Earth Power:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So this is what I had in mind when mentioning Lando-I as problematic to the Types I listed, and I apologize for not elaborating. But let me add that under Gravity (assuming the player using it can take advantage of a Switch and Set Gravity), Lando-I gets Perfect Coverage with Poison Moves with Ground's Immunities removed from play, allowing it to run Calm Mind to Boost it's already strong Attacks. But that's probably irrelevant as I'm probably the only one who uses that Set, but let it be food for thought nonetheless.

And sure, this logic could also apply to Pokemon such as Greninja, but I'll save that discussion for later; Lando-I has been on my shitlist ever since the Talonflame era, where it was one of the two Mon's that I suggested holding a Suspect Test on way back when for the reasons defined above.
 
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Freeroamer

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Flying was mentioned in someone's post, I think scp's, but eh, as both you and I agree, Flying if prepared properly shouldn't have much issue with it, save for being able to break skarm that much easier for a Ground team. I also agree that Steel, Rock and Poison are all forced to run offensive checks at best to try and deal with it, as they literally don't have anything that can switch in on it. You mention Ferrothorn not being able to tank Earth Power's which is true, but in my experience most all-out or 3 attacks + Gravity sets carry Focus Blast, which is a OHKO on sets not running significant Special Defense investment, and punches a minimum 87.7% into the set you described.

Overall I agree with many of your points, and I'm not sure if you'd agree with this but the way you've written your post makes it seem like you would, I see this as very similar to Mega Medicham, in that through the support that one of it's particular typings can provide, it becomes too much to handle for several monotypes. That said I think it would be a big mistake to suspect this for Ground, as while you could argue you were improving the viability of other monos, the reality is that they would still struggle with Ground, while you would make Ground a weaker type in the metagame, thus not setting out to achieve the goal of balancing.

tl;dr You've convinced me that on Flying it's worth a suspect, but I think it would be a mistake to suspect it on Ground
 
I am not sure if Anttyaz posted the calcs i have updated them with a couple of new ones. Overall Lando-i kills so many types no effort you never know what it and can't beat at all. I put the most viable moves in these calcs and i hope this shows to people who think Lando-i is not broken that it kinda beats more than half of the meta.
The calcs http://pastebin.com/d0KJ5sXQ
I hope these help in showing why Lando-i is so broken and should be at least suspected for flying only since it gives flying a powerful special ground (Earth Power) stab user with filler moves flying needs (Focus Blast, Sludge Wave, Knock off, Rock Slide, Hidden Power Ice, Psychic) One more thing to mention you never know it can be a cm lando-i also it can be a scarf physical Lando-i, but imo scarf Lando-t does the job better but it makes Lnado-i have so many options. These pokes i put in the calcs were majority of types that get killed by Lando-i and counter i have heard people are saying. Also aobut chansey once chansey has it evoilite gone it does not counter Lando-i at all.
 

scpinion

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Flying was mentioned in someone's post, I think scp's, but eh, as both you and I agree, Flying if prepared properly shouldn't have much issue with it, save for being able to break skarm that much easier for a Ground team. I also agree that Steel, Rock and Poison are all forced to run offensive checks at best to try and deal with it, as they literally don't have anything that can switch in on it. You mention Ferrothorn not being able to tank Earth Power's which is true, but in my experience most all-out or 3 attacks + Gravity sets carry Focus Blast, which is a OHKO on sets not running significant Special Defense investment, and punches a minimum 87.7% into the set you described.

Overall I agree with many of your points, and I'm not sure if you'd agree with this but the way you've written your post makes it seem like you would, I see this as very similar to Mega Medicham, in that through the support that one of it's particular typings can provide, it becomes too much to handle for several monotypes. That said I think it would be a big mistake to suspect this for Ground, as while you could argue you were improving the viability of other monos, the reality is that they would still struggle with Ground, while you would make Ground a weaker type in the metagame, thus not setting out to achieve the goal of balancing.

tl;dr You've convinced me that on Flying it's worth a suspect, but I think it would be a mistake to suspect it on Ground
Yeah, it was me that mentioned Flying. Tbh I was theory-mon'ing with the Flying statement and didn't bother calc'ing anything. My original thought was it could bop the entire generic flying defensive core under gravity, which is probably true. However, a skilled player would force it out to stall the turns of Gravity if the situation ever arose; so, it will not just clean house on a well built team.

Those calc's really are scary, although we need to be careful with Lando-I...
I said it earlier, but will reiterate: Lando-I needs to remain on ground teams. We would be crippling one of the few truly balanced types if it is removed, which is exactly opposite of what we're hoping to do with these discussions. The only counter point could be ground has Nidoking, but that really doesn't cut it...
 
Yeah, it was me that mentioned Flying. Tbh I was theory-mon'ing with the Flying statement and didn't bother calc'ing anything. My original thought was it could bop the entire generic flying defensive core under gravity, which is probably true. However, a skilled player would force it out to stall the turns of Gravity if the situation ever arose; so, it will not just clean house on a well built team.

Those calc's really are scary, although we need to be careful with Lando-I...
I said it earlier, but will reiterate: Lando-I needs to remain on ground teams. We would be crippling one of the few truly balanced types if it is removed, which is exactly opposite of what we're hoping to do with these discussions. The only counter point could be ground has Nidoking, but that really doesn't cut it...
Nidoking is a damn fine mon to use to on ground, even if he doesn't have the same damn speed stat of Landorus-I. He cuts it pretty damn well most of the time, and is a viable option even if there is the path of taking Lando-I over it. Just saying it cuts it pretty well even if there are options over it.
 
Yeah, it was me that mentioned Flying. Tbh I was theory-mon'ing with the Flying statement and didn't bother calc'ing anything. My original thought was it could bop the entire generic flying defensive core under gravity, which is probably true. However, a skilled player would force it out to stall the turns of Gravity if the situation ever arose; so, it will not just clean house on a well built team.

Those calc's really are scary, although we need to be careful with Lando-I...
I said it earlier, but will reiterate: Lando-I needs to remain on ground teams. We would be crippling one of the few truly balanced types if it is removed, which is exactly opposite of what we're hoping to do with these discussions. The only counter point could be ground has Nidoking, but that really doesn't cut it...
If Lando carries Sludge Wave then it demolishes the Flying Core because it 2HKOs Togekiss. Thundurus can force it out, but something has to die :[
 
I've been playing some ORAS Monotype lately and I've been finding some megas to be pretty OP in the current metagame. These mons include Mega Sableye and Mega Mence (Who knew?!) These two mons can even sweep prepared teams since they have no answer to it. Mega Sableye can wall and sweep gigantic portions of the metagame with its Calm Mind set, and Magic Bounce makes it impossible to stop since it has pretty good defenses. Mega Mence on the other hand is just plain broken. +1 lets it outspeed every viable scarf, Fire Blast lets it get past Skarmory, and Refresh prevents it from being statused. I don't think they're ban worthy yet but I feel like they should be suspect tested when the game comes out.
 
Or if OU bans one of the things before we can suspect it then it could just work out dandy for us (for a selectwho aren't immediately broken in the mindset of mono) or we can put them in "to be tested later" status
 

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Just to give my Greninja argument some basis and to show that the scarf set is indeed useful, I just got this replay against deg, a very good dark user: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-180383405

You can see here, that while I misplay slightly by saccing my Hippo where it could have taken a hit even though it can't KO ninja from where it's at, that his scarf ninja ravages through my team, KOing 5 of my mons and essentially being the centre of the game thanks to it's great coverage. My problem with this is I don't see any way I could have played better around it or built my team better to handle it, as far as i can find, any Ground type is easily 2hkoed by one of it's common moves, meaning as long as the opposing user is reasonably smart and sends it in at the right moments, I am essentially forced to sac a mon.
This is why I run AV Mamoswine, tanks anything scarfninja has to offer.
 

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I've been playing some ORAS Monotype lately and I've been finding some megas to be pretty OP in the current metagame. These mons include Mega Sableye and Mega Mence (Who knew?!) These two mons can even sweep prepared teams since they have no answer to it. Mega Sableye can wall and sweep gigantic portions of the metagame with its Calm Mind set, and Magic Bounce makes it impossible to stop since it has pretty good defenses. Mega Mence on the other hand is just plain broken. +1 lets it outspeed every viable scarf, Fire Blast lets it get past Skarmory, and Refresh prevents it from being statused. I don't think they're ban worthy yet but I feel like they should be suspect tested when the game comes out.
Mega Mence is like Talonflame all over again, and Mega Sableye is like Clefable with better stats and no tricking it. I think we should look into the new ORAS megas especially these two.
 

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This is why I run AV Mamoswine, tanks anything scarfninja has to offer.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 400-476 (111.4 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 265-312 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nice tank.
 

feen

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252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 400-476 (111.4 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 265-312 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nice tank.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 400-476 (111.4 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 265-312 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nice tank.
Try Max HP/SpD and Max SpA, the point is it can take a hit and can hit hard with eq then kill with shard
 

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Arifeen just because you can revenge kill means nothing, and using up a whole pokemon just to revenge kill means even less. What's far more important is whether you can counter or check it, and TBH ground can check it well enough that they don't have to waste whole team slots on revenge killers when it's just going to switch out.
 
Man there are better ways of checking it without potentially sacrificing a great deal of power in order to make it work. While I guess it can work (and I use that loosely) it will be null and void in a few days when Gren can just low kick you with grass knot to put you down for good.
 
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Freeroamer

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Salemance said:
Man there are better ways of checking it without potentially sacrificing a great deal of power in order to make it work. While I guess it can work (and I use that loosely) it will be null and void in a few days when Gren can just low kick you with grass knot to put you down for good.
This is part of the issue, there legitimately isn't if you consider both the scarf and the LO sets. Sure you can put a scarf on Landorus, Garchomp, anything with 70+ base Speed I think I worked it out to be, but this is a complete waste if you come up against a scarfninja. Also you have to consider the opportunity cost of doing this, in that by scarfing one of these pokemon you are greatly diluting their power, and in the case of Garchomp, giving up one of your best wallbreakers entirely(as you can no longer use Megachomp), making your team much more susceptible to the likes of Slowbro and Skarmory. I have only used AV Mamo briefly, but it's actually quite an interesting set in that allied with Gastrodon and Hippowdon, it can give quite a sturdy backbone, and to an extent take on threats that these can't, such as Giga Drain Volcarona if you run Stone Edge, while still providing strong STABs (even with little investment, base 130 Attack with STAB Earthquake and Icicle Crash still hits hard) and that albeit weaker priority in Ice Shard. Yeah you might not be doing 40% to Skarm on the switch anymore(I used to run banded) or being able to spam Ice Shard, but if a set can help to alleviate your weaknesses and make your team more solid overall, that's got to be worth it. This is true for nearly all Monotype teams, often you will see sets that would be frowned upon in standard play, but being used because they can help reduce the shared weaknesses that a team being Monotype brings. Just my 2 cents.
 
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This is part of the issue, there legitimately isn't if you consider both the scarf and the LO sets. Sure you can put a scarf on Landorus, Garchomp, anything with 70+ base Speed I think I worked it out to be, but this is a complete waste if you come up against a scarfninja. Also you have to consider the opportunity cost of doing this, in that by scarfing one of these pokemon you are greatly diluting their power, and in the case of Garchomp, giving up one of your best wallbreakers entirely(as you can no longer use Megachomp), making your team much more susceptible to the likes of Slowbro and Skarmory. I have only used AV Mamo briefly, but it's actually quite an interesting set in that allied with Gastrodon and Hippowdon, it can give quite a stuirdy backbone, and to an extent take on threats that these can't, such as Giga Drain Volcarona if you run Stone Edge, while still providing strong STABs (even with little investment, base 130 Attack with STAB Earthquake and Icicle Crash still hits hard) and that albeit weaker priority in Ice Shard. Yeah you might not be doing 40% to Skarm on the switch anymore(I used to run banded) or being able to spam Ice Shard, but if a set can help to alleviate your weaknesses and make your team more solid overall, that's got to be worth it. This is true for nearly all Monotype teams, often you will see sets that would be frowned upon in standard play, but being used because they can help reduce the shared weaknesses that a team being Monotype brings. Just my 2 cents.
Also, AV Mamo wrecks Zard Y
 
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