Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Croven]

Transitioning back to the tiering debate...
I'm going to stand by my original assertion that Skymin and Kyu-W need to go first. They are literally doing nothing for the metagame right now and the ban is justifiable from an efficiency argument. Skymin just flinches teams to death and Grass teams have a new toy in m-Sceptile to replace Skymin. With the banning of Kyu-W, I agree Ice will most likely return to its spot as one of the worst types; but, I would argue that is far better than keeping a Pokemon that creates a matchup-based metagame.

This has been discussed at length on the thread, but the two defensive behemoths, m-Sableye and m-Slowbro, should be the first suspects. And I do think we should suspect, not quick ban. The metagame is still very volatile; with posts like Hunk's on those two Mega's a larger part of the community will start adapting to these, and other Pokemon. While many things he's discussing are gimmicks, there are certainly some viable sets as well. I think our current aversion to many of them stems from the fact they were non-standard in the XY metagame.

Yeah, most of your post I'm too tired to post about your other point, but I'm leaning more towards Crazy Horse's side on this. If something is broken in OU, it is highly likely it is broken in Monotype. Most broken mons require very little team support, and what is needed is somewhat provided. For example, Gene needs something to also handle Fire types, then run something like SpDef Volc, it seems to handle Fire the best on Bug. It can handle it with skillful playing, which is what all monos need to do to beat their weaknesses. Anyway, I hardly even know what I'm saying right now, just that what's broken in OU is very, very likely to be broken in Monotype, where restrictions create even less counters.

Also, about suspecting anything that was new in ORAS for about a month or so, as unless a mon is as powerful as M-Mence and it's obvious that it needs to go, so that we can actually adapt and think about new checks to these Megas and whatnot. IMO, people are just being impatient and some people I've talked to don't even want to adapt, they literally just want to get rid of the mon so that they can keep their team. Again, this is (hopefully) a very small amount of the community, but that part exists. New mons have come out, so we need to think of new strategies and sets to get around them. This has happened in every meta shift, and we shouldn't get lazy now. I wasn't meaning to offend anyone here if I did, just putting my thoughts out.

Oh yeah, last point. XY mons that were allowed before ORAS (KyuW, Skymin, M-Maw) and that we have decided are worthy of suspect should get suspected soon. They have been in the metagame for months, and if they have been deemed broken by the community, then so be it. New Megas mean new checks, but there aren't enough of them to justify mons deemed broken by the community to suddenly not be broken. So IMO, we should move away from talk of suspects of ORAS megas for a little while, and more towards the mons that we didn't like in XY, and how they fare in ORAS, and if they deserve a suspect or not.

Anyway, I can't even get my thoughts together well for some reason, they feel all out of place, so I'm going to let it end here so I can get not tired and yeah and things.

 

[Acast]

Transitioning back to the tiering debate...
I'm going to stand by my original assertion that Skymin and Kyu-W need to go first. They are literally doing nothing for the metagame right now and the ban is justifiable from an efficiency argument. Skymin just flinches teams to death and Grass teams have a new toy in m-Sceptile to replace Skymin. With the banning of Kyu-W, I agree Ice will most likely return to its spot as one of the worst types; but, I would argue that is far better than keeping a Pokemon that creates a matchup-based metagame.

This has been discussed at length on the thread, but the two defensive behemoths, m-Sableye and m-Slowbro, should be the first suspects. And I do think we should suspect, not quick ban. The metagame is still very volatile; with posts like Hunk's on those two Mega's a larger part of the community will start adapting to these, and other Pokemon. While many things he's discussing are gimmicks, there are certainly some viable sets as well. I think our current aversion to many of them stems from the fact they were non-standard in the XY metagame.

I just wanted to mention that you can't really use Mega Sceptile as a replacement for Skymin because you would be losing Mega Venusaur as well, a Pokemon that is almost mandatory for Grass teams if they aren't hyper offensive. I suppose Mega Sceptile is similar to Skymin in some sense, but does it justify losing the best mega, and arguably the best Pokemon overall, that Grass teams have access to? Nothing else takes both Fire and Ice attacks nearly as well. I'm neutral on whether or not Skymin should be banned again, but I honestly believe that it has no replacements on Grass if it does get banned.

 

[scpinion]

Oh yeah, last point. XY mons that were allowed before ORAS (KyuW, Skymin, M-Maw) and that we have decided are worthy of suspect should get suspected soon. They have been in the metagame for months, and if they have been deemed broken by the community, then so be it. New Megas mean new checks, but there aren't enough of them to justify mons deemed broken by the community to suddenly not be broken. So IMO, we should move away from talk of suspects of ORAS megas for a little while, and more towards the mons that we didn't like in XY, and how they fare in ORAS, and if they deserve a suspect or not.

Croven, I could support dealing with the XY 'mons before ORAS; I say the unbans should go first actually. :) Not surprisingly, the discussion seems to be centered around all the new stuff right now so they are the natural candidates to creep up. There are a number of things that need to be looked at and the sooner we get at it the better. Idc about the order that much.

I just wanted to mention that you can't really use Mega Sceptile as a replacement for Skymin because you would be losing Mega Venusaur as well, a Pokemon that is almost mandatory for Grass teams if they aren't hyper offensive. I suppose Mega Sceptile is similar to Skymin in some sense, but does it justify losing the best mega, and arguably the best Pokemon overall, that Grass teams have access to? Nothing else takes both Fire and Ice attacks nearly as well. I'm neutral on whether or not Skymin should be banned again, but I honestly believe that it has no replacements on Grass if it does get banned.

Acast, that's fair on losing Mega-Venu; but I was arguing with someone (I can't remember who now) and they made the point grass would have no viable, fast special attackers if we ban Skymin. That isn't true; one just has to shift their play style, as you pointed out. The bigger problem is the fact it commonly wins (or completely changes the course of a match) via flinch hax. I think we reached a consensus on that being unhealthy/uncompetitive some time ago?

 

[Delambra]

Hello, I've been using a balanced grass mono on most tours those past 10 days, and i would like to give my opinion on Skymin. You probably don't even know me (sherp), so my opinion might not have a lot of weight, but i will still give it. I wasn't around when Skymin was allowed, so i don't really know why it has been allowed on mono grass (To make the mono grass better with a fast and hard hitting pokemon, i guess?).

First, Mega sceptile won't be a substitute for skymin if it is banned, as someone said. Mega venu is the core of any balanced grass, and losing it would be a huge blow to a mono that isn't even that good. On balanced grass, right now, if you want a fast, and hard hitting pokemon without a scarf choice/set up, sceptile is the best option, the second one would be Shymin, who isn't that fast. Mega sceptile will be amazing on HO, i won't deny it, but i'm not sure if it will be good on balanced.
Maybe a core with Amoongus/Cradily/Ferrothorn would be decent, but still far worse than with Mega venu. So, it will nerf balanced grass. Do you want to nerf grass mono? I don't think so.

Is Skymin OP? Probably, i'm not really sure. It does more or less the things Greninja will do, with a worse coverage. I used him mainly as a wall breaker, and not really as a Reveng killer, but i might have been using him badly. The problem with skymin being a reveng killer is that it relies on hax far too much. Usually, against most types, seed flare won't be an OHKO, and you will need to flinch at least once or twice to get the kill. Which leads me to the last point.

Is it healthy for the metagame? No. When using skymin, i found myself relying way too much on hax. It was often something like "If i make him flinch, i get the kill or the switch out, if i don't make him flinch, i'm dead". And when it flinch 60% of the time, it is only a bit more than a coin flip. I'm sure most people here don't play Pokemon as a luck based game. We won't rage over a crit or something, but when a strategy relies that much on hax, i don't see how it could be a good thing.

Does it need a ban, or at least a suspet? IMO, it does. It will nerf grass team pretty badly, though, and they are not even that good. But something that relies that much on luck have no place in a strategy game.



PS : I'm sure some people would think "And togekiss?", but Skymin's base speed lets him outspeed and hax to death most pokemons, which is the problem.

 

[HangMioku]

Im new to these forums and I dont know how they work. A couple of posts back Shaymin was being addressed for grass teams. I personally think Shaymin-Sky form is not ban worthy until it gets a choice scarf. Once it gets a choice scarf then it can just flinch hax the way to victory for the majority of the meta. Only pokemon with access to ice shard or some form of strong repeated priority attack can kill it at that point, which isnt healthy for the meta game.

How do I add quotes?

 

[Tyke]

Im new to these forums and I dont know how they work. A couple of posts back Shaymin was being addressed for grass teams. I personally think Shaymin-Sky form is not ban worthy until it gets a choice scarf. Once it gets a choice scarf then it can just flinch hax the way to victory for the majority of the meta. Only pokemon with access to ice shard or some form of strong repeated priority attack can kill it at that point, which isnt healthy for the meta game.

How do I add quotes?

Tbh scarfskymin isn't as scary.

 

[DoW]

Hey, Articuno I (and others). Just so you all know, winrate is a really shitty metric, due to the fact that PS makes every attempt to matchmake players of like skill. What you *really* want is average GXE, since GXE corresponds to the expected winrate of a player on a ladder with no matchmaking. Articuno I, I believe you have the raw data for that for what ever month that data was from. I'm going to try to get you guys up-to-date information (based on November's stats) as well.

Sorry about that, I was tired and forgot that while winrates are useful in determining one type vs. another, they're useless in terms of one type against everything. Thanks for pointing it out ^-^

Getting back on-topic, while flying is something we should keep an eye on, I do think that pokemon such as Kyu-W, Skymin, MMaw, MMedi, and similar should remain under discussion. Mega Medi and Mega Maw I'm not convinced on either way yet, but Skymin and Kyu-W I think need to go. They've not really made that much difference to the meta due to ice and grass still not being particularly common, and TBH when they are used it only causes instability in the metagame, due to low enough usage that it's not really worth preparing for them.

 

[RedsCharizard]

Further on the AAA discussion, I think that Delta Stream needs a ban from flying mono. Eliminating many weaknesses and canceling all other weather is just too good, for obvious reasons. Sorry for not posting a long explanation, but it's easy to see why it's too much for a flying monotype.

 

[Anttya]

Tbh scarfskymin isn't as scary.

It is if you're a Bug / Grass / Fighting user :(

Also, I'd support a Skymin ban just because of its ability to hax through large portions of the meta. However, there would be no replacement (maybe Scarf Rotom-M?) since Mega Venusaur is pretty much mandatory in Grass. Normal Sceptile is much better off as a Swords Dance set anyways.

 

[all falls down]

Ok Crazy Horse since I have some time I'll just go through all of your points.

----------

My list of why its balanced and doesn't even deserve the slightest nerf:
> It isn't over centralizing

Oh really? In my experience on the ladder and tournaments, flying has always been by far the most used type. Here are the usage stats for November:
1 | Skarmory | 19.46571% |
2 | Togekiss | 16.62153% |
3 | Azumarill | 12.57792% |
4 | Greninja | 11.80566% |
5 | Slowbro | 11.12518% |
6 | Excadrill | 10.75886% |
7 | Garchomp | 10.73399% |
8 | Dragonite | 10.49738% |
9 | Volcarona | 10.45053% |
10 | Zapdos | 10.37620% |
As you can see, Skarmory, Togekiss, Zapdos and Dragonite are all in the top ten most used, and while Skarmory and Zapdos are also always used in their other respective types (Steel and Electric), these types aren't as common in this meta and thus I think most of their usage comes from Flying anyways.

> Top Tier = Broken? If you want to argue flying is TOO good I'm happy to debate that

The argument against Flying is that it is too consistent, which in my opinion is a very true statement. Flying has a neutral or advantageous type match-up on nearly every single type; this in my opinion supports that flying is too good.


> 50/50s: Usually to deal with bolt beam flying has to make a play to avoid a poke fainting now unlike steel mono it is just choosing a lesser evil not complete immunity.

There aren't many users of bolt beam, and the common ones like Kyurem-black and Nidoking are easily revenge killed by numerous Pokemon. Obviously no monotype is perfect, so even Flying has weaknesses.


> Flying mono has restrictive team building already especially for high level play. Examples
>> Stall: Sp.Def Gyara, TankZard, ZapKiss those are 4 pokemon that are arguably must haves if you even want to even think about playing stall
>> Balanced: Zapdos/Togekiss, a lando form(usually T), Scarf Thundy-t
>> HO: (I have a HO Flying team but I'm not sure if there is a common standard so I'm just gonna ignore this one.)

LOL what? Flying is restrictive? The fact that it has the option to even run these three playstyles proves that it is the exact OPPOSITE of restrictive. Look at a type like Electric or Fairy; they quite literally have about 8-10 viable Pokemon to choose from. I don't see your logic at all here; so many types are simply unable to go with a playstyle other than balanced due to viability. Flying is blessed with variability.

> Just because it is popular doesn't make it broken. It can be a fairly fun to use, easy to make monotype. Nothing in particular that's broken.
Not only is it popular, but it tops ladders and tournaments and is clearly seen to be a very consistent type.

> Tbh I think a lot of people use flying as a scapegoat for Monotype's Unbalances or just don't like generic and just jumping on a bandwagon of hate :^)

I agree with you that hate towards using a certain type is completely dumb and shouldn't even be happening; types like Flying get so much hate for no reason. When laddering with Flying myself I've even got death threats,,,This doesn't change the fact that Flying is too good, though.


> Monotype took months to ban Damp Rock a thing A LOT of people agreed on banning. We were just too slow and ineffective with the tier I blame it with the logic decided with the banning : "It doesn't seem we are all in agreement sooo..." It should have been what was the stronger argument.

I don't see what you mean here. How is this relevant?


> It's so damn generic, like most flying teams will usually take the balanced approach and preparing for that usually means preparing for all flying teams you'll encounter.

While this may be true that flying teams become predictable, many types are simply unable to "prepare", as switching from unpenetrable wall to unpenetrable wall is very threatening to some types.
> Why are we Focused about flying when it is undeniably good, but not game breaking. To be honest the higher priorities should be these blatantly obvious broken pokes.

I agree again and I have said once before that we should prioritize other Pokemon first, but that doesn't mean we should keep overlooking Flying like we have been. I am starting to think there is no real way to balance flying without doing something ridiculous, though.

 

[Crazy Horse]

let me just keep this post short and sweet.

On my over centralizing point you posted the usage ranks. That does prove flying is probably the most used type, but how is that relevant to over centralizing.
If I am not mistaking Over Centralizing means forcing things upon teams/pokes. (Think Talonflame vs Bug). Blaziken forcing azumarill on teams is a good example.

Flying is too consistent? Well those win data records posted above reads little above 50%... It's a top tier type which probably means it has some advantages. Yet I'll say it again being top tier / having traits of top tier doesn't = broken. You can't realistically expect every type to be equal in the amount of matchups neutral/advantageous/disadvantageous. Also how is bringing up it has many neutral match ups an argument? That doesn't seem very negative at all, Meta game wise.

There aren't many users of bolt beam, and the common ones like Kyurem-black and Nidoking are easily revenge killed by numerous Pokemon. Obviously no monotype is perfect, so even Flying has weaknesses.

Um bolt-beam is one of the easiest coverages to achieve in the game, second just having one of them and lets say a water move(hydro pump / scald) still creates the same affect.

LOL what? Flying is restrictive? The fact that it has the option to even run these three playstyles proves that it is the exact OPPOSITE of restrictive. Look at a type like Electric or Fairy; they quite literally have about 8-10 viable Pokemon to choose from. I don't see your logic at all here; so many types are simply unable to go with a playstyle other than balanced due to viability. Flying is blessed with variability.

Well to call them entirely different play styles is generous. They more accurately are deviations of balance since they usually carry 3-4 pokes that are the same. There really aren't many stall users of flying from my experience(correct me if I'm wrong) with most using the balance variation. Most flying teams carrying the same pokes and you can usually bet on the same style. It's not hard to make a flying team in 1 minute.

Not only is it popular, but it tops ladders and tournaments and is clearly seen to be a very consistent type.

Yes it is consistent that's the reason it's top tier .-. not a reason to ban it. People will always swarm at Good Results | Minimal Effort. It doesn't matter what you do with flying that will always be the case in any competitive platform just about. There has to be a top tier if a meta game. Topping ladder? Not the strongest argument when other top tier types and plenty of mid tier do it all the time (there were 4 Psy users in top 10 at one point). I swore in the last two pages are so it was shown flying actually begins to lose far more often as it goes up the ladder. Is there ever a case where being consistent and reliable is broken if it is just that reason alone.
Second you saying it's always topping tours, look that is an uncited and I would say unprovable assertion. Don't make claims like that are just baseless.

While this may be true that flying teams become predictable, many types are simply unable to "prepare", as switching from unpenetrable wall to unpenetrable wall is very threatening to some types.

Unpenetrable walls? Are you serious? I'm sorry but if you're team has no way to deal with Physical walls like Skarmory, Lando, or Zapdos you got some serious teambuilding to do. Togekiss has about 5 weaknesss and it doesn't patch up flying's BoltBeam fault. Please tell me a poke on flying that is "simply impossible" to prepare for. It being generic eases the preparation, honestly when making a solid team you should already be prepared to face flying without even having it in mind. Those supposedly unpenetrable walls have to constantly deal with hazards control or take 12-25% otherwise. With speedy taunt users on the rise and a more offensive meta game this has made defogging much harder on flying. So switching from "unpenetrable wall" to another will be very costly. You didn't even support this rather bold statement with examples or any kind of data for that matter.

 

[Tyke]

let me just keep this post short and sweet.

._.

Unpenetrable walls? Are you serious? I'm sorry but if you're team has no way to deal with Physical walls like Skarmory, Lando, or Zapdos you got some serious teambuilding to do. Togekiss has about 5 weaknesss and it doesn't patch up flying's BoltBeam fault. Please tell me a poke on flying that is "simply impossible" to prepare for. It being generic eases the preparation, honestly when making a solid team you should already be prepared to face flying without even having it in mind. Those supposedly unpenetrable walls have to constantly deal with hazards control or take 12-25% otherwise. With speedy taunt users on the rise and a more offensive meta game this has made defogging much harder on flying. So switching from "unpenetrable wall" to another will be very costly. You didn't even support this rather bold statement with examples or any kind of data for that matter.

I'm pretty sure All Falls Down means many teams simply can't prepare or work around flying's "impenetrable defensive core".

Something that checks togekiss is walled by landorus-t, unless it's an ice move in which it can be walked by spD mega-gyarados or mega-charizard x, who are threatened by fighting/ground/bug/rock that Skarmory handles, who is weak to electric and fire, which Zapdos and togekiss can handle. All of them can Defog and all of them can roost for consistent recovery and hazard control.

Really, go type by type, from poison to ghost to grass, and think about which have the boltbeam coverage you say threatens flying so much.

Boltbeam coverage is easy to achieve yet hard to come by, because without StAB, Sheer Force, or strong offensive stats electric moves aren't typically worth running over STAB or other type coverage. And once again, SpD Zard x tramples all over boltbeam.

Just saiyan c:

 

[Acast]

In the vein of introducing new sets for ORAS Megas, I thought I'd take a swing at mega-lopunny.

This is the set I found extremely useful on mega-lopunny. It's very effective in this meta for disrupting and punishing set ups/stall teams.


Mega-Lopunny



This mega-lopunny set makes use of it's incredible speed and perfect coverage to set up on leads, other set ups, and the like. You can run maximum HP as well if you want a bulkier substitute. Some pokemon this set roughs up include...

-Mega Venusaur
-Galvantula
-Skarmory (if it goes for stealth rocks)
-hippowdon
-swampert
-Aegislash
-many other examples

It also puts Mega-Lopunny in a safe position behind the substitute to do severe damage to another pokemon. At +1 Frustration/Last Resort does major damage, 2HKOing several defensive steel types like scizor even with the resist.

Or Lopunny can use encore to lock opponents into a move, giving a safe switch to Chansey or Porygon2. Encore shuts down a startling number of pokemon without putting mega-lopunny at risk of taking damage.

Here is a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189324582

Just mai thoughts c:

I just wanted to add my own experience with this set. It is a monster. +1 Last Resort destroys things, and for now no one will expect an encore from Mega Lop so it's relatively easy to set up. Here's a few replays I've collected by using Mega Lopunny on my team.
vs Bug: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189395803
vs Fighting: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189425234
vs Water: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189434952

The ones against Bug and Water are most impressive imo. Slowbro and Alomomola never stood a chance...

 

[Tyke]

It is if you're a Bug / Grass / Fighting user :(

Also, I'd support a Skymin ban just because of its ability to hax through large portions of the meta. However, there would be no replacement (maybe Scarf Rotom-M?) since Mega Venusaur is pretty much mandatory in Grass. Normal Sceptile is much better off as a Swords Dance set anyways.

Fair enough.

It's good to be reminded every once in a while to think of all the types when determining whether a pokemon is broken.

*thinks about greninja*

 

[Antar]

I really appreciate you posting the GXE data for us! That certainly helps, but shows pretty much what I expected...everything is clumped around a 50% win rate with the types at the top of the ladder slightly above 50% and the "bad" types below 50%.

Right. But this is a good thing. If the variation was, say, between 30 and 70, then it would mean that player skill was basically irrelevant--all that would matter would be team type. So given that, +/-2% is significant.

Can you explain how you calculated that btw (it can be in pms or a different thread to keep from clogging up the thread), the average is more than 50%?!?! Someone has to win and someone has to lose each battle...
Edit: didn't see your edits to the GXE post before I posted this. You're counting battles so something >50 makes sense.

Do you need further clarification? That part is the key.

The GXE metric is designed to take the match-making element out of it (what is the probability of beating a 1500+/-350 player), which is exactly opposite of what we want to know... We are interested in learning if one type has a significant advantage, assuming two players of equal skill are playing each other. The match-making algorithms do their best to guarantee we have equally skilled players in the matches. Thus, we're looking for abnormally high win rates for a particular type at different levels of play to indicate that type needs to be nerfed. I hope I'm not too far out in left-field with this idea... :/

This is actually an excellent point... except GXE doesn't measure player skill--it measures the likelihood of player+team winning a random matchup: you can't take the teambuilding (and the type advantage) out of the equation. Make sense? So a player with a mono-electric team with an Elo of 1400 (matchmaking, unfortunately is done by Elo) is almost certainly more skilled than a player with a mono-Steel team with the same Elo. Make sense?

Sorry about that, I was tired and forgot that while winrates are useful in determining one type vs. another

Did you ever find interesting findings in that regard? Ratings are interesting regarding monotype, since the underlying math behind all of our rating systems (Elo *and* Glicko) don't really account for Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamics.

 

[scpinion]

Right. But this is a good thing. If the variation was, say, between 30 and 70, then it would mean that player skill was basically irrelevant--all that would matter would be team type. So given that, +/-2% is significant.

I just re-read my post... My phrasing was very poor there; I didn't mean to imply everything around 50% was a bad thing. That is exactly what we want to see!

Do you need further clarification? That part is the key.

I don't know exactly how you did it, but the fact it doesn't average to 50% makes complete sense when you're not counting players. In light of not knowing exactly what went into it, this next comment could be completely idiotic.
I'd be curious to discuss this calculation further, especially implementing something that could bias it toward the high ladder, which will almost certainly encompass everyone currently contributing to this thread. I think this may already be happening, but I'm not 100% sure.

This is actually an excellent point... except GXE doesn't measure player skill--it measures the likelihood of player+team winning a random matchup: you can't take the teambuilding (and the type advantage) out of the equation. Make sense? So a player with a mono-electric team with an Elo of 1400 (matchmaking, unfortunately is done by Elo) is almost certainly more skilled than a player with a mono-Steel team with the same Elo. Make sense?

I talked with DoW (Articuno I) about this yesterday and it makes sense when we're considering win ratios across all battles. I'll be honest, I really dislike it; but, there is nothing we can do about it unless the match-making (or Elo awarding) algorithms are altered to account for type advantages/disadvantages. I'm well aware that is not a realistic proposition at this point though.

Did you ever find interesting findings in that regard? Ratings are interesting regarding monotype, since the underlying math behind all of our rating systems (Elo *and* Glicko) don't really account for Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamics.

There is quite a bit of interesting stuff that can come out of this, especially if we track it with metagame evolution and pokemon that are banned/unbanned. Most importantly, these type of metrics tell us if our tiering decisions are having the desired effect on the metagame (balancing particular type matchups). This type of data would have been awesome to have for Kyu-W. Chances are the day after the un-ban the win % for ice would have drastically changed vs the specific types that have been so heavily discussed.

 

[Zane0144]

I just wanted to add my own experience with this set. It is a monster. +1 Last Resort destroys things, and for now no one will expect an encore from Mega Lop so it's relatively easy to set up. Here's a few replays I've collected by using Mega Lopunny on my team.
vs Bug: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189395803
vs Fighting: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189425234
vs Water: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189434952

The ones against Bug and Water are most impressive imo. Slowbro and Alomomola never stood a chance...

Tbf, that bug player was either awful or had no idea what Mega lopunny was.
1. You didn't get burned by volc.
2. He used bug buzz instead of just breaking the sub. After the sub was broken he could've killed it with Pinsir easy.
3. Sashed aerial ace scizor
Why does he even run aerial ace if he has Pinsir

 

[Acast]

Tbf, that bug player was either awful or had no idea what Mega lopunny was.
1. You didn't get burned by volc.
2. He used bug buzz instead of just breaking the sub. After the sub was broken he could've killed it with Pinsir easy.
3. Sashed aerial ace scizor
Why does he even run aerial ace if he has Pinsir

I was only drawing attention to the anti-lead capabilities and power of this Mega Lopunny set. I'm fully aware that I wasn't battling an experienced opponent, but there are two other battle links I included in which the opponents are more experienced so it's clear that the set is viable even against decently good players.

 

[Freeroamer]

First of all, praise Eevee General for updating the OP as well as making it look a lot nicer!

Secondly I'm gonna share a really cool set I was using in tours today that caused a lot of rage:

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave

This is a really cool option for Flying teams, as paired with a Ground/Flying type (ie. Lando or Gliscor), you effectively create an resistance core to the infamous BoltBeam, with Gyara easily being able to stomach Ice Beams and the Ground type providing a full electric immunity. This is also a really cool status absorber for your team, being able to rest on a multitude of targets and then damage them or paralyze them while asleep. The EVs don't really do anything special, just a bit of number OCD from me as it means both defensive stats are over 300, with the raw numbers being 393 / 301 / 345, excellent mixed bulk. Just a note when using it, you don't always have to Mega evolve. In some matchups, particularly Bug and Fighting, I often don't evolve at all, because the boosts aren't worth the new typing.

 

[DoW]

Did you ever find interesting findings in that regard? Ratings are interesting regarding monotype, since the underlying math behind all of our rating systems (Elo *and* Glicko) don't really account for Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamics.

While the stats are now a little out of date due to ORAS and bans/unbans, they did show some very interesting things and are still very useful for overviews or for type matchups that have remained unchanged.

For example, I found the exact winrate between flying and fighting between all games with a variance below 100, but that the winrate came closer to 50/50 as the glicko was increased due to the fighting players being more able to counter flying and the flying users focusing on beating other types and therefore running less flying moves:

>>> levelratio(0,'Flying','Fighting')
At a Glicko of 0 or higher, Flying wins: 945, Fighting wins: 455, ratio: 0.675
>>> levelratio(1400,'Flying','Fighting')
At a Glicko of 1400 or higher, Flying wins: 803, Fighting wins: 400, ratio: 0.6674979218620116
>>> levelratio(1500,'Flying','Fighting')
At a Glicko of 1500 or higher, Flying wins: 435, Fighting wins: 259, ratio: 0.6268011527377522

It was also interesting to see which matchups this didn't happen for, for example ground becomes worse against grass as the glicko increases. For this I'm not actually sure why, although it might be the grass player carrying ice moves for flying teams perhaps. I'm still working on the coding (at least, whenever I'm not in lectures, which isn't much of the time), but I'm trying to work out how much of a glicko handicap would be needed for each type matchup to make it even, though whether this would ever be useful I don't know.


Back on the topic of monotype, glad to know someone finally noticed M-Gyara was an option after I spent a week telling everyone how it was an option <_<
Cynicism aside, I think the ability to heal itself (including status), choose between typings and abilities (not that mold breaker will be particularly useful without dragon dance, unless you come up against... limber persian? IDEK), and generally be a bulky mon and IIRC the only mon on flying teams to resist ice, it's certainly a threat. It's why I think banning Zard X wouldn't have enough of an effect on flying, if the opinion remains that flying needs a nerf.

 

[Anttya]

This is a little embarrassing to admit, but I generally lose to Fighting upper ladder. Between Specs Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Mega Medicham, and Taunt ___. It's extremely hard for Flying teams to win against seasoned players since we hardly run Flying STAB, and Fighting's unique speed tiers / sheer force just wears everything down.

As for nerfing Flying, it'd be almost to ban something w/o resorting to drastic / complex bans. Flying isn't broken Pokemon-wise, they just complement each other so well that it's hard to break through their walls. Because of that, I really can't think of a simple way to nerf it.

 

[Freeroamer]

I swear by SpDef Dnite for switching into Keldeo, it's also a nice switchin for Lando-i which Flying can also struggle with. It does kinda exacerbate your Ice weakness, but I think it's worth it to be able to switch in to these threats.

 

[Freeroamer]

Apologies for the double post, but I'm just going to put this here so people know where it is: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2014-11/monotype-1760.txt

Those represent the usage stats for the top end of the ladder for Monotype for last month, and while you should never base an argument for a poke to be suspected on usage, it does give an interesting insight into the current metagame and what types are popular in particular. As we can see, Flying looks popular, with Skarmory, Togekiss, Dragonite and Zapdos all finding places in the top 10. Water also retains a strong position in the meta, with Azu, Greninja and Keldeo filling 3 of the spots in the top 10, however they are very popular on their other types too. This is an important point to consider too, that pokemon with two popular types that are useful on both kinds of teams will inevitably be higher in usage. Looking at weaker types in the metagame, it's noticeable that Grass and Ice have very little presence in the top end of the list, with the first Grass type coming in at #38 and the first Ice at #29, and even this can largely be attributed to popularity on other type teams. Anyway I just found this quite interesting, feel free to comment on any other trends you see, but I'll say it again, don't use usage as an argument as to whether something should be suspected or not.

 

[n64lord]

Apologies for the double post, but I'm just going to put this here so people know where it is: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2014-11/monotype-1760.txt

The Pidgeot-Mega Hype disgusts me... at 77th there are plenty of things below it that just send my blood boiling. The most interesting trend after that is using control+f to look for pokemon with a single type that are nearly always members of a team. A dragon mvp like goodra or a ghost staple like aegislash appears way down, while the ground exclusive hippowdon lags a bit at 55 and for big bad psychic-flying-normal-fairy-and bug? mons you won't have to scroll at all.

Water is by far the most diverse type atm, with the only concession seeming to be greninja/azumaril, as their next listings are gyarados at 40th place and then swampert at 62nd.. which indicates a plain lack of trendsetting regarding what to use and wildly different team compositions.

Also I was wrong, it DOES seem to be lopunny making normal teams so badass in this metagame.

Psychic and to a degree flying and steel, seem to be much less willing to use their "other option" pokemon, and are happy to just play a game of swap the mega. The best example is lucario's and deoxys-D's distance from their brethren. The confidently high placement of jirachi and duoblade surprises.

A handful of really nice pokemon get stuck in the hell that is 150-300 that seem more deserving than the lower end of the most used mons.

All I really have to say after sifting through this is... when did bug become a first string type?

 

[TM93]

The Pidgeot-Mega Hype disgusts me.

Just gotta get this out there: 121 Base Speed and No-Miss Hurricanes from 135 base Special Attack are nothing to sniff at, I'm not surprised people are trying it out at all. The only way it could have been better is if Game Freak had decided to give it Focus Miss, but as it is it's still solid enough with Heat Wave coverage. And a Timid one still outspeeds most non-scarfed/unboosted Pokemon on turn 1 due to that 101 Base Pidgeot Speed. Yeah it gets walled to hell and back by just about any Rock type ever even with HP Ground, Water, or Grass, and a few Electric Types (Rotom-W and Ampharos-M namely), but that doesn't mean it's not worth at least considering. But considering it's got backup from it's entire Flying-or-Normal Monotype Teams, it's surely got teammate slots to spare in helping take out those threats (something with Fighting Attacks on Normal like Staraptor would be a first guess, there's plenty of choices for Flying tbh).