Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[DarkShiftryy]

Mega gallade should get a test imo
It fits in well with psychic or fighting and it works well behind screens as well as you can get atleast an SD or a sub up and then its ridicoulsly hard to stop but idk i find it hard to stop unless you got a flying mono in that case its rekt, as said only scarfers stop it

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Mega gallade should get a test imo
It fits in well with psychic or fighting and it works well behind screens as well as you can get atleast an SD or a sub up and then its ridicoulsly hard to stop but idk i find it hard to stop unless you got a flying mono in that case its rekt, as said only scarfers stop it

Mega Gallade is not always wrecked by flying mono. It outspeeds just about everything on flying and gets SD and Ice Punch, as well as Knock Off for annoying Rocky Helmets/Lefties. Also, flying types usually don't use their STAB. The only Pokemon on my flying team (Skarm/Toge/Zap/Char X/Lando-I/Thundy-I) that uses a flying move is Toge for flinchax. So, unless it lacks Knock Off, flying usually struggles as it is outsped and nailed with Ice Punch. If it doesn't have Knock Off, then Rocky Helmet Skarm can get some residual damage in, and Toxic stall can work too, but Gallade can always switch, get healed while its teammates weaken Skarm, then switch in again. The only teams that can deal with it are really ghost/fairy. Ghost has Sableye (and Aegislash if non-Knock Off variety) and fairy has Klefki to set priority screens, priority paralysis, and foul play. Klefki also happens to resist Psychic/Ice/Dark, and be neutral to Ghost and Fighting (just about every other fairy resists fighting, too). Like, Nani Man said, just about every type struggles with it as it has amazing boosting moves, good teammates, and excellent coverage. You can literally slap on a move and have dealt with a threat. I support a Galladite ban in case anyone was still wondering O.O

 

[Ashaury]

Not too sure, but I think Noah didn't use Mega Maw

Noah used mawile...
Anyways that was like 6 months ago, the meta was so diferent.

 

[ArVaDa-]

Moving on...

I will provide what I know as a flying user against mega gallade/cham and call it a day. Against me gallade sets up swords dance 100% of the time as soon as it comes out and will either sweep me or die trying in the late game so I will do calcs as such (as I would think it is played the same way against next to all flying players).

Gallade Versus Flying Cores Calcs

+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 169-199 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

+2 252 Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 484-572 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 226-267 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

+2 252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 313-369 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 448-528 (116.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 468-552 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 408-482 (109.3 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 286-337 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 336-396 (93.3 - 110%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

My team particularly has trouble with it (keep in mind this is an advantage matchup for me supposively), but it isn't broken vs flying imo. I could be running defensive sets if I cared, and rarely does a gallade run both psycho cut and ice punch. Usually I can keep rocks off the field so a chunk of my pokes can take it and do something back, but it is definitely a health preservation game. It can only really come in on zapdos to punish me, if I don't get the discharge para while it SD I'm in trouble, but every other poke has a way with coping.

As for Mega Cham---> Togekiss, Zap, Skarm, And Glis (no ice punch) can take a hit and hit back.

Cham Versus Flying Cores Calcs

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 284-336 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 201-237 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 135-159 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

To sum it up. If anything is a suspect, suspect gallade first, and if cham is almost as bad then that happens after. In the flying vs fighting matchup, there are things I can be using and moves I can play to stop them (especially if you can keep rocks off the field), so in this respect they are fair. In other arenas finding something to stop them may be hard so idk if I can vote either way since I really don't know (the below calcs are what I expect you guys will be finding across all matchups). For those of you in a different type, scarfed flying attacks really hurt these guys if you have the ability to run that.

Normal vs powerful attacks

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 217-256 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 234-276 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 326-386 (117.6 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I mean, at least skarmory KOs both back with brave bird, audino doesn't with dazzling gleam (on the defensive end). I'd like to see more posts with arguements for these two before any conclusions are made.

 

[DEG]

ORAS gave Sableye a Mega Evolution which at first, people thought that it was bad after that prankster loss but turned out to be a monster. It has great bulk which is 5/125/115 and a great ability which is Magic Bounce making it impossible to status is via status moves or whirlwind it away. It typing, bulk and ability make it easy to setup Calm Mind, It can run Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical threats, after some Calm Mind Mega Sableye is almost impossible to stop for some monotype and thanks to it’s ability it isn’t scared of status moves, it has recover which let it slack the damage taken. Also given great support on both dark and ghost make it hard to deal with. Best Mega Sableye set revolves around calm mind set up and the nearly perfect dazzling ball coverage. As we can see some types are vulnerable ex: Dark, Psychic, ghost, fighting…

Sample Of Team that support Sableye:

Dark: Tyranitar-Mega/Mandibuzz/Mega-Sableye/Hydreigon/Greninja/Bisharp

Expl: These pokemon can check some threats that sableye lose to, making sableye come at the right time and set up.

Ghost: Jellicent/Gourgeist/Mega-Sableye/Aegislash/Gengar/Chandelure

Expl: Ghost element core makes sableye scarier, Jellicent and Gourgeist can spread status over the opponent’s team specially Will-o-Wisp that makes Sableye harder to stop.

Thus said, I believe that Mega Sableye should be banned from Ghost and Dark due to it’s typing, bulk, ability and moves used that destroys certain monotype teams.

TL;DR: BAN Mega-Sableye on dark and ghost, it’s ability of setting up and destroying monotype team plus it’s ability making it hard to beat.

I asked some users about Mega sableye and see what they responded, will add more.

Click Me!

QueenieKaty: Sets up a 2 cms and sweeps like Mega Slowbro but a bit worse with Magic Bounce meaning No burn/toxic unless a move does status move I only found 1 counter on psychic for mega sab which is mew using toxic :L

Red's Charizard: Very few teams can counter it, given its magic bounce, it can dodge toxic. The only way to status it is scald, poison jab, etc.
Red's Charizard: I'd say both. Ghost may need it, but "needing" is not a very good argument against a ban. Mega Mawile proves that.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Someone just posted this replay in the mono room:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200007873
Mega Gallade gets set up on a Nidoqueen that sets hazards and proceeds to sweep the whole poison team. Admittedly, letting it get to +6 was bad (poison user probably shoulda played that differently) but it still shows how dominant mega gallade is, as it probably coulda swept that team even if it was only at +2 (and it would've been easy to set up on that Nidoqueen no matter what it did--see how thunder punch did only like 17%, because Gallade has bulk). So again, it is borked, ban it imo.

Dream Eater Gengar
Most Mega Sableyes i've seen use Dark Pulse/Calm Mind/WoW/Recover, which is also OP. Priority for 3 moves lets it set up first (it doesn't need to mega evolve right away) and then sweep when it does mega evolve with better stats, and the inability to be phazed/statused. So I think it should be banned on Dark for sure, but I'm not totally certain about ghost. Right now i think I agree with Acast in the fact that it actually makes ghost somewhat more viable without being too overwhelming, which is good to have a balanced metagame and to allow everyone to use their favourite type. So, ban on dark, keep on ghost.

Mega Medicham isn't that powerful. It doesn't get SD, 100 speed is average, and Aegi/Sableye wall its sets (Aegi: immune to Fake/HJK/poison jab, resists bullet/ice punch and zen headbutt, can lower its attack with king's shield; Sableye: immune to Fake/HJK/Zen, priority burn/STAB foul play). Basically, status wrecks Mega Medicham, and lots of stuff can outspeed and KO it. Also, unlike Mega Gallade, it can be killed by flinchax. Don't ban it on either type--it ain't borked imo.

 

[RedsCharizard]

Mega Gallade:
Typing: Psychic / Fighting
Stats: 68 / 165 / 95 / 65 / 115 / 110

Overview:
Mega Gallade is a particularly threatening Pokemon in Monotype. Because of being limited to Pokemon of one type, few teams can switch into Mega Gallade and check it. It can force out a fair number of offensive threats and either throw a powerful STAB move or go for a Swords Dance, which nearly guarantees a KO coming from even Jolly Max Attack (429). Having an excellent speed tier of 110, outspeeding Garchomp, Charizard, Terrakion, Keldeo, and tying with Lati twins, Mega Metagross and Gengar. Typically, it won't be outsped without a Choice Scarf.

Moves:

Its STAB and nearly unresisted coverage of Close Combat and Zen Headbutt cannot be switched into, and it has the option of running Knock Off to check Ghosts, while also being able to run Ice Punch to check the likes of Landorus. Finally, there's the obligatory Swords Dance that gives Gallade an excellent opportunity to sweep. Bulk Up and Drain Punch sets are a possibility, but are a waste of potential.

Team Support:

Psychic teams can support this monster incredibly well. Mew has the ability to remove hazards, cripple attackers with the combination of WoW and Knock Off, the likes of Slowbro can wall, and powerful special attackers such as Alakazam and Lati@s can weaken a team before cleaning up with Mega Gallade. Fighting teams are usually hyper-offense, so they clean up threats to Mega Gallade before it switches in.

Tl;dr: Mega Gallade cannot be switched into, is too fast for our metagame, and due to teambuilding limitations, most types cannot check it without a Choice Scarf, or in certain cases, weather support. Psychic teams can support it greatly with its great options of Pokemon. The fighting type has few walls and cannot support Gallade by using status or hazards, but is capable of weakening potential checks before switching in Gallade to clean up. This is why Mega Gallade should be banned from Psychic and suspected on Fighting.

 

[scpinion]

Alright, I've been silently lurking for some time. Figured I would take the time to share my opinions on some of the recent discussion.

On the recent bans: m-Bro was ridiculously broken...glad its gone. As I said earlier, I will not miss m-Mawile either.

On Mawile-less Fairy teams: Mawile was a huge part of what fairy teams did, but they still have access to some awesome m-evos (Diancie and Gardevoir) and the entire supporting cast from before. A fairy team that adapts to support m-Diancie as well as m-Mawile was supported will still be a top tier team. As for not being able to beat Steel teams, this doesn't bug me so bad. Almost every type has a matchup that is nearly unwinnable without some hax, misplays from the opponent or overly compensating for that weakness: Dark struggles with Fairy, Kyu-w Ice beats Flying, Grass is a tough matchup for Water...the list goes on. A generic Fairy team had a good chance of beating every type before Mawile was banned. While an even matchup with every type is a desirable quality for the metagame as a whole, I do not think it is healthy to have it reserved for a couple of types because of broken Pokemon.

Sableye: First, some perspective on my experiences with m-Sableye. I have yet to build a team with m-Sableye myself. However, I have played against it in matches ranging from the absolute low ladder up to vs. some of the top dark/ghost users. I have also watched a number of matches with the top Ghost/Dark players in the tours we routinely host. I'll be brief with my points:
I do not find m-Sableye to be broken on a Ghost team. If anything I would say it really helps Ghost out by providing a route to control hazards. That said, it also leads to situations vs. hazard setters that are easy to predict off, and exploit the opposing team. Additionally, Ghost does not have the supporting cast to fully support m-Sableye to the point where it simply sits in the back and serves as a win condition. Thus, keeping m-Sableye on a Ghost team promotes diversity within the Metagame by helping an under-used type, while increasing the competitive aspect by rewarding good play.
My opinion severely differs on a Dark team. Dark has all the supporting options to simply utilize regular, Prankster Sableye throughout a match, then m-evo late game to finish off a weakened opponent. If this is not enough, I often find upper ladder Dark users that don't even take that risk because they can easily recognize when the rest of their team is capable of removing the threats to Sableye. Thus, it becomes incredibly centralizing. Its unhealthy to be building teams and playing entire matches just to make sure it doesn't setup and sweep on the spot. Less than a handful of types have definite checks/counters to m-Sableye that remain viable in the overall metagame and are not just wrecked/exploited by Dark's supporting cast. Dark was among the best types in XY without it, and I see no reason why Dark needs the insane buff that is m-Sableye. I fully support a type-specific ban of m-Sableye on Dark.

Nerfing Flying as a Type: I agree with DM; this is a problem that could turn into a larger issue if left unaddressed. However, it is too early in the ORAS metagame to try and figure out exactly what needs to be done. Lets deal with the other Mega-Evo's that are causing problems and then reassess the metagame at that point. Croven has a valid point that some of the things that will be replacing our recent bans are serious threats to Flying.
If I have to pick a particular Pokemon that should be suspected...Togekiss would be my first choice (sorry Croven). Without Heal Bell from Togekiss, defensive Flying teams can be worn down, unless they want to run Articuno, Dragonite or (mega-)Altaria. However, each of these other options exacerbates another weakness. Additionally, removing scarf Togekiss from the more offensive builds leaves Flying without a viable user to Trick choice items, while also removing the random (and undeserved) KO's from flinch hax. Overall, the same type of playstyles will remain, but with weaknesses that can be exploited, and covered, through good play. As for some of the other options that have been discussed...I think removing Zapdos is too much, while Landorus-I would only affect the more offensive-minded teams. If we get rid of CharX, then m-Gyarados (or possibly m-Altaria?) could fill the same role nicely.

Gallade/Medicham: Sae posted while I was in the process of writing all this up, and I couldn't agree more that we should be discussing Fighting teams, not Psychic. They are both broken on Psychic because of all the support Psychic teams have access to.The type will be just fine without them seeing as they have a whole host of other m-evo's and awesome Pokemon to build around. I'm still undecided on Fighting teams, but from my experience with m-Medicham on Fighting in XY it would lead me to say its not broken, especially with the speed creep ORAS mega's brought. There are more random scarves running around, and Fake Out + Bullet Punch can only do so much if there are some hazards on the field (which there always should be against Fighting if at all possible). Although, I'm not set in stone on this one...I really look forward to the coming discussion on m-Medi!
My views on Gallade are skewed because I've been running a Greninja with U-Turn that does a nice job of offensively checking Gallade (I run that because of how ridiculous Psychic teams are atm). I'm going to play/watch some more matches before forming an opinion of my own.

TL;DR I'm glad m-Bro and m-Maw are gone; Fairy will still be good; Ban m-Sab on Dark, but its fine on Ghost; Let's hold off on nerfing Flying, but I think Togekiss would be the one to suspect; Ban m-Medi/Gallade on Psy, I'm undecided on Fighting.

 

[all falls down]

As much as I love Mega Sableye on Ghost and think that it completely molds Ghost together to form an actual viable type providing unbelievable support, if we're banning it on Dark, it doesn't make sense to me to leave it on Ghost (sorry rare Ghost users ;-;). I won't explain why I think it's broken, as I think others have said all that has needed to be said.

Ghost teams have far more support for Mega Sableye than Dark; it has Aegislash, which almost perfectly compliments Mega Sableye in eating up stray fairy moves and having mixed attacking and/or toxic support. Ghost monotypes also have potent walls that can weaken the other team quite nicely through the likes of status: Jellicent, Cofagrigus, Trevenant, Dusclops, etc. all also serve as Pokemon that can take the special attacking moves that are too strong for Mega Sableye. Dark's unique support is mainly defog support from Mandibuzz, which Mega Sableye does fine by itself, and heal bell support from Umbreon. While Mega Sableye can still get statused from things like Synchronize and Mold Breaker, it has Magic Bounce so it doesn't really need heal bell. Dark monotypes also lack anything to switch in to strong fairy moves, unlike Ghost monotypes.

With this arises the same problem of Mawile, Shaymin-sky and Kyurem-white; are we going to ban it from just one type even though it is a blatantly broken Pokemon on its own? Should we leave a Pokemon that is potentially threatening to the tier's stability only because the type that it is on is not the strongest? Mega Sableye on Ghost teams is just as much of a threat to the meta as it is on Dark teams (you can see my feelings towards Shaymin-sky and Kyurem-white as well).

Because of these reasons, as much as it pains me to say, I think that if we are banning Mega Sableye on Dark, we should ban it from Ghost as well.

also: Praise Nani Man for banning Slowbronite and Mawilite.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

With this arises the same problem of Mawile, Shaymin-sky and Kyurem-white; are we going to ban it from just one type even though it is a blatantly broken Pokemon on its own? Should we leave a Pokemon that is potentially threatening to the tier's stability only because the type that it is on is not the strongest?

Simple question, simple answer: No.

Why?

The objective of a Banlist is to balance the Metagame in terms of Viability, not to make Types who are naturally Weaker better. Take note of the use of the word natural, because that is as accurately as I can describe this idea of Balance in one word. It is only natural that Ice loses to Steel. It is only natural that Flying remains a dominant Type in Gen. VI. It is only natural that Ghost will have trouble against Dark. It's the core principal that governs the game; the very system by which we play Pokemon. Unbanning Broken Mons's such as Kyurem-White is unnatural: instead of evening out the Ice V.S. Steel Matchup, it simply reversed the inequality of extreme. Banning a Poke that doesn't warrant a Ban such as Togekiss isn't going to magically fix the fact that Flying is a dominant Type, as what makes it dangerous is how well it cooperates with its Teammates, not that it itself is Broken; that's unnatural (and unjustified). Ghost struggling against Dark is a given; having the Matchup become advantageous to it due to one, Broken Pokemon is unnatural. Understand my logic? If so, then allow me to say this:

If you have to use a Broken Pokemon to make a Type better, then that in itself is proof that that Type is naturally Weak and deserves to be as is.

But before anyone makes a counterpoint, understand that I say Broken. Broken in terms of self-sufficiency (such as Mawile-Mega), imbalance of Type Matchups and by extension discourage of use for certain Types (Talonflame), or overall an unhealthy presence in the Metagame by whatever means possible. Broken, as in, it's doing more harm by being in the Metagame than its intended purpose.

Having that been said, I don't think that I need to point out what this applies to, but just in case: Shaymin-Sky, Kyurem-B, and now Sableye-Mega.

^(As others have said and still continue to say since fucking last year).

EDIT: And oh, before somebody goes here, let me make this clear. I can almost sense the "Well according to your logic we should just leave Monotype as is" and the oh-so lovely "W-well your just pessimistic and your not willing to even try to make Weaker Types better!!!" arguments. Don't misunderstand. I said using Broken Mons is not the answer. And 2 times put of 3, Unbanning an Uber was not the answer. I'm all for a Test. Arceus-Rock should definitely be Tested in my opinion, and if it proves Broken, just Ban that motherfucker again. Simple. But letting it sit I'm the Metagame when it's Broken? Not the way to go.

So no, it's not my point to leave the Monotype Tier as is. No, I'm not proposing a pessimistic viewpoint on the situation. The point is is that we have to be willing to try things (that 're within reason; no way Zekrom should be Unbanned for Electric), and if it doesn't work out, undo it and try again.

So for the love of my sanity don't make these exaggerated comments.

More of my hair will turn gray, and I'm only 18

 

[Isza]

Alright Here goes something:
Mega Gallade:
In my opinion, I Believe that mega Gallade is one of the biggest threats in the metagame at the Moment. at +2 with coverage moves such as knock off, close combat, Psycho cut, and ice punch, It can 2HKo or 1HKO most walls in the tier, even Slowbro. But its Important to realize that Mega Gallade works only as good on hyper offensive teams, not balanced psychic. JUst look at this replay here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-188342536 My Opponent was put On pressure by my trick scarfs and hazard pressure, and thats why he got sweept. On the other Hand take a look at this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-196690399 here my opponent was trying to put the momentum on by me, but because of my Balanced offensive core, He wasen't able to do much with Mega Gallade, or at lest put the pressure On my team. Another thing: Gallade tends to have a 4 slot move Syndrome. From what I Have seen its Movesets range as:
Swords Dance, Close Combat, Shadow sneak, Knock off
Swords Dance, Knock off, Close combat, ice Punch
Psycho cut, close combat, ice punch, knock off
Bulk up, drain punch, knock off, ice punch

Now depending on what set you run on Mega Gallade, you are walled by certain things. For example, Mega gallade without Psychic stab, can Be outstalled/walled by some poison types, such as mega Venusaur, and weezing. Those who lack Ice punch, tend do be walled by Gliscor, and Landorus. And if you manage to have all coverage moves at once without a boosting move, you cannot get the much needed atk boost you need to sweep with it, making it less threatening.
Final Thoughts: Gallade is a threat, but not enough to be suspected for
Mega Sableye:
As much as this Pokemon helps ghost, this thing has WAY too much support. sure fairy moves kill it, but guess what? Ghost has Aegislash. High specs powered water users such as keldeo sure. But guess what? Jellicent. Ok Kaiser your overreacting High power stab fire moves Hurt it alot. Sure it does, But chandeure comes to save the day. These Pokemon together, Make up a really Unbalanced Core. It just Makes Mega sableye too good on ghost then it does on dark. Also, with magic bounce, you can't even toxic it, para, or burn it. And with its amazing bulky and ability to burn. It can wall Your team both defensive and spD sides.
Final Thoughts: Mega Sableye should be banned on ghost and dark.
Mega mawile ;_;:
Alright, as much as i hate this thing, I really believe it should only be type banned for steel monotype. Why? Because fairy JUst can't handle steel as well anymore. Just take a look at this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-monotype-1298378 without Mawile, I couldn't really beat my opponents bullet punch Metagross, and screens Only did so much. Now I know i can't use this as a valid argument, due to stuff like "ice can't deal with mega Scizor, what about that" Or "Mawile at +2 1HKO's 90% of our metagame" But i believe a type ban should be reconsidered. Gardevoir and Mega Diancie can handle steel to an extent, But they stand no Chance against a good core, and worst of all, steel type priority.
Final thoughts: Type Ban for Monosteel, Should stay on Mono fairy.

 

[Anttya]

I personally think that Sableye should stay on Ghost. Unlike Dark, Ghost cannot give Sableye the most important support it needs: Hazard control. With Rocks up, and constant switching to predict hazards / knock offs, you're getting worn down extremely fast. Combined with the loss of Prankster Recover and Sableye's slow speed, it's extremely hard to recover back your health without giving the opponent set-up opportunities. This forces the ghost user to play extremely risky, and if they lose the 50/50 then Rocks are going to be up for the rest of the match, or Sableye's already injured.

Also, isn't our job to try and balance the 18 types? Ghost was considered to be one of the worst because of its sucky Pokes, bad team support, a weakness to Knock Off, and horrible typing. Mega Sableye will fix some of that, mainly giving Ghost a usable Mega that isn't weak to both Knock Off and its effects. Sableye also gives Ghost a small chance against Dark monos if it runs Dazzling Gleam, and lets be honest that's weak asf, even at +6. Will-o-Wisp could be a way to neutralize threats, but it's not switching in against strong attackers. Unless if you're around full health, you're not living 2 hits from a wall breaker, even if it's burned.

Because of all of this, I think Sableye should stay in Ghost, and be banned from Dark

 

[ArVaDa-]

To comment on recent posts, the reasoning that m-sableye should be gone from ghost because of cores may be trickier to debate than at least I thought at first, since without m-sableye ghost struggles in alot of matchups again. I know ghost is doing significantly better with m-sableye, at least moreso than when it was stuck with mega-banette, but it isn't doing so well that I feel it is stronger than some top tier types. Not only that, but akin to the case of the m-mawile ban, if m-sableye is kicked to the curb so is the chances of beating dark (that matchup is already very hard but after a ban it is seemingly hopeless). Dark does get an additional win condition, but it doesn't seem to be so amazing to the point that all dark users, I'm thinking of pika, are dropping their tyranitarite for sablenite (maybe they would do better idk, just an observation). Sableye is definitely a win condition powerhouse that is suspect/ban worthy for BOTH monotypes.

I'm not sure I totally agree with psychic running mega gallade is more difficult to deal with than fighting, it might be, but I personally prefer playing psychic teams with gallade than I do fighting teams (and I main flying XD). The reasoning being, as PK-Kaiser noted above, gallade does do well on very aggressive teams. I actually laddered a few times today and conversed with some psychic users after matches, and alot of them prefer mega-cham over gallade because of immediate power. On psychic things like to switch in and out and smashing something quick is really nice for them, whereas always having to set up a SD and then switch out after isn't as desirable. I don't know if they would do better with gallade or not and whether it really is less desirable, but that was the impression I got. This doesn't change the fact that they are both kick ass pokes and could be suspected, but I am leaning more towards leaving them be.

Just some things I thought were worth considering.

Edit: I also agree that m-gallade really suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome, it may crush some monotypes, but it isn't crushing them all, at least with 1 set.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Hazard control.

Ghost has indirect ways of Hazard Control outside of Magic Bounce Sableye-Mega. Taunt Lead Froslass and Magic Bounce Focus-Sash Golurk (on more Offensive Teams) are examples that come to mind).

But even if that was not so, Sableye-Mega in theory is hazard control. It has Magic Bounce to provide the very support Ghost (is claimed) to lack, further proving the point that Sableye-Mega is practically carrying the entire Type while already being a phenomenal Mon' by itself.

Also, isn't our job to try and balance the 18 types?

Depends on your definition of "Balance". Because as its worded now, "balance the 18 types" sounds like "make them all as good as each other", which in case the answer would be no.

The objective is, again, to make each Type equally Viable. And with the Unban or Aegislash for Ghost, Ghost has once again become Viable with HO Playstyles. It was never unviable, but rather overshadowed by better, more effective Types.

 

[DEG]

Mega mawile ;_;:
Alright, as much as i hate this thing, I really believe it should only be type banned for steel monotype. Why? Because fairy JUst can't handle steel as well anymore. Just take a look at this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-monotype-1298378 without Mawile, I couldn't really beat my opponents bullet punch Metagross, and screens Only did so much. Now I know i can't use this as a valid argument, due to stuff like "ice can't deal with mega Scizor, what about that" Or "Mawile at +2 1HKO's 90% of our metagame" But i believe a type ban should be reconsidered. Gardevoir and Mega Diancie can handle steel to an extent, But they stand no Chance against a good core, and worst of all, steel type priority.
Final thoughts: Type Ban for Monosteel, Should stay on Mono fairy.

If we take this argument in case, we see that fairy struggles with MegaGross running around and specially since Mega Mawile got banned so fairy loses most games against steel now, but I could give a counter to that argument. With Mega Mawile fairies have easier wins over other types, we shouldn't focus on one matchup to balance the tier.

 

[Anttya]

Ghost has indirect ways of Hazard Control outside of Magic Bounce Sableye-Mega. Taunt Lead Froslass and Magic Bounce Focus-Sash Golurk (on more Offensive Teams) are examples that come to mind).

But even if that was not so, Sableye-Mega in theory is hazard control. It has Magic Bounce to provide the very support Ghost (is claimed) to lack, further proving the point that Sableye-Mega is practically carrying the entire Type while already being a phenomenal Mon' by itself.



Depends on your definition of "Balance". Because as its worded now, "balance the 18 types" sounds like "make them all as good as each other", which in case the answer would be no.

The objective is, again, to make each Type equally Viable. And with the Unban or Aegislash for Ghost, Ghost has once again become Viable with HO Playstyles. It was never unviable, but rather overshadowed by better, more effective Types.

Especially on bulkier teams, Sash Froslass can easily be played around. Rocks do not have to be set within the first two turns, you can set them up later when Froslass is gone. Or you can Defog them once Froslass is dead. Also, I don't think Golurk gets Magic Bounce. It'd be great if it did.

As for the balancing stuff, viable would be a better word for what I had in mind. imo, Ghost can only play HO extremely well because of its defensive flaws. Sableye once again changes that. It gives Ghost cores to work with, and it makes Balanced teams viable.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Especially on bulkier teams, Sash Froslass can easily be played around. Rocks do not have to be set within the first two turns, you can set them up later when Froslass is gone. Or you can Defog them once Froslass is dead. Also, I don't think Golurk gets Magic Bounce. It'd be great if it did.

As for the balancing stuff, viable would be a better word for what I had in mind. imo, Ghost can only play HO extremely well because of its defensive flaws. Sableye once again changes that. It gives Ghost cores to work with, and it makes Balanced teams viable.

Golurk gets Magic Coat as a Move, which is what I meant to say.

Let me ask you this: what would be best, saving a single Playstyle or Balancing several?

 

[BlackSchwan]

It's really hard to find middle ground in situations like this, especially with the one surround M-Mawile. If it is kept on Fairy then there will be teams that will struggle to get past it such as Dark,Psychic and Ghost, but now that it is taken away Fairy has to resort to using BD Slurpuff which with so many teams running phazing moves can really leave much to be desired when Azumarill is doing exactly the same thing.

The balance of the metagame is never going to be completely stable but having M-Mawile made it incredibly unstable. All in all I agree with what DEG said that M-Mawile cannot stay just so Fairy can have the advantage of possibly beating Steel when it can tear through other teams like they are nothing especially once it has set up...

 

[scpinion]

It's really hard to find middle ground in situations like this, especially with the one surround M-Mawile. If it is kept on Fairy then there will be teams that will struggle to get past it such as Dark,Psychic and Ghost, but now that it is taken away Fairy has to resort to using BD Slurpuff which with so many teams running phazing moves can really leave much to be desired when Azumarill is doing exactly the same thing.

The balance of the metagame is never going to be completely stable but having M-Mawile made it incredibly unstable. All in all I agree with what DEG said that M-Mawile cannot stay just so Fairy can have the advantage of possibly beating Steel when it can tear through other teams like they are nothing especially once it has set up...

I agree with the statements on Mawile/Slurpuff, but Azu has other useful sets. Fairy teams are going to change; the exact builds and styles that worked with Mawile may be sub-optimal without it. For instance, I expect to see a rise in the usage of Banded Azu on Fairy. Slurpuff will be taking over the role of BD sweeper, while Banded Azu is a replacement for the powerful priority Mawile provided.

 

[Anttya]

Magic Coat is still gimmicky, and is nowhere near a reliable way to prevent hazards- esp if you have no way of getting rid of them.

Of course balancing several would be the best, but I have used Mega Sableye on Ghost and I have found it to be extremely lacking tbh. It saves Ghost, but it doesn't harm other types.

~

Scizor / Metagross vs Fairy is like Chansey vs Electric. It's pretty much one sided, and the odds are against you. But we can all agree that we shouldn't unban Zekrom just to deal with Chansey right? It's plain broken. The same could be said for Mawile. It's obv broken, but it gives Fairy a better chance against Steel. I'm going to quote Enoch on this:

Let me ask you this: what would be best, saving a single Playstyle or Balancing several?

Bringing back Maw saves Fairy, but it several types are instantly crippled by the sheer force Maw carries. Leaving it be will nerf Fairy, but it gives certain types such as Fighting a chance. What would you do?

Will write more tomorrow if I have to :P

 

[BlackSchwan]

I agree with the statements on Mawile/Slurpuff, but Azu has other useful sets. Fairy teams are going to change; the exact builds and styles that worked with Mawile may be sub-optimal without it. For instance, I expect to see a rise in the usage of Banded Azu on Fairy. Slurpuff will be taking over the role of BD sweeper, while Banded Azu is a replacement for the powerful priority Mawile provided.

Yeah that is a great point you made Scpinion. I can see Band Azumarill rising in usage due to strong immediate priority that requires no setting up. Also with Unburden and base 72 speed and add some needed speed that Azumarill could never provide to Fairy until phazed or forced out. Base 72 with Unburden after Sitrus has been consumed put Slurpuff in a nice position to sweep with only it's lack of coverage being it's main flaw

 

[Acast]

Magic Coat is still gimmicky, and is nowhere near a reliable way to prevent hazards- esp if you have no way of getting rid of them.

Of course balancing several would be the best, but I have used Mega Sableye on Ghost and I have found it to be extremely lacking tbh. It saves Ghost, but it doesn't harm other types.

Completely agreed. I've been using Mega Sableye and yes it is extremely good compared to most of the other options Ghost has, but on Ghost teams it simply doesn't live up to its reputation. Ghost doesn't have quite the support that Dark teams have. You could argue that there are good Ghost type support pokemon, but not like Dark has. Jellicent is lacking in bulk (despite what many people think). Cofagrigus, beyond its Defense stat and Toxic Spikes, can't do much. Golurk has no notable bulk so the best way to run it is Sash with 252 attack and 252 speed. Spiritomb is laughable compared to Sableye. Froslass is the definition of frail and if you predict wrong and use Taunt when you shouldn't, you're done. I use Gourgeist and pretty much everyone knows how good I think Gourgeist is, but it doesn't provide the same support that Dark teams can provide. If I could have something like Mandibuzz on my Ghost team, I'd replace Gourgeist immediately. The best partner, and imo the only good one, that Mega Sableye has is Aegislash. With only one other pokemon that can reliably switch into the Fairy moves that will be sent Mega Sab's way, that hazard damage will add up. Ghost simply has no reliable method of hazard control. Once the rocks/spikes/toxic spikes are up, they're staying up. Sableye and Aegislash will feel the effects of all that switching and it will wear them down.

Mega Sableye is good on Ghost, but I would never say it's broken on a type that has so few viable ways of supporting it.

 

[all falls down]

In response to the argument that Sableye has less support on Ghost, how so? Like I said before, Ghost has Aegislash and more Will-o-wisp users and defensive behemoths. The only real support that Dark has over Ghost like I said also is Defog, and Sableye supports the team here with magic bounce, and like Enoch said, Ghost still has things like lead Froslass. When you think of the pressure Ghost is able to put on with both Sableye and Aegislash, the other player will constantly be second guessing if they can set hazards or not. While this may seem repetitive, Ghost's team with both Mega Sableye and Aegislash together is simply too unbreakable of a core.

You can't say that Mega Sableye "doesn't receive as much support" on ghost because that simply isn't true.

As of now I haven't heard any real arguments to keeping on Ghost other than the fact that Dark as a whole performs better as a type than Ghost. If we're going to ban it from Dark and leave it on Ghost we need to think of better reasons to keep it on Ghost rather than the only argument being that Ghost is a bad type.

If we keep the mentality that just because a type is subpar we can add overpowered Pokemon to it, we're going to keep corrupting the meta by keeping pokemon like Shaymin Sky, Kyurem White (we need to revisit these) and Mega Sableye.

(This post isn't directed to anyone specifically)

 

[LivingstonePHD]

I play mostly monotype on showdown and its gotten to the point where I have reached a rank barrier 1400 to be precise, before I was in the 1200 region but I created a new team with better coverage overall and its worked out well until this point.

I run a Steel Team Skarmory, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Mega-Metagross and Bisharp.

The question is how do I advance beyond this point, do I need some sort of gimmick to work off of? must I find a strat that no one has ever thought of before? or do I just keep banging my head against the wall hoping one day I will get past?

 

[Acast]

I play mostly monotype on showdown and its gotten to the point where I have reached a rank barrier 1400 to be precise, before I was in the 1200 region but I created a new team with better coverage overall and its worked out well until this point.

I run a Steel Team Skarmory, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Mega-Metagross and Bisharp.

The question is how do I advance beyond this point, do I need some sort of gimmick to work off of? must I find a strat that no one has ever thought of before? or do I just keep banging my head against the wall hoping one day I will get past?

If you've never tried other types before, I recommend it. Learn how other types work and your predictions will become much better. I'm speaking from experience as a former exclusively Ghost user. Once I branched out and learned the other types, my skills at prediction and preparing my team beforehand became much better.

In response to the argument that Sableye has less support on Ghost, how so? Like I said before, Ghost has Aegislash and more Will-o-wisp users and defensive behemoths. The only real support that Dark has over Ghost like I said also is Defog, and Sableye supports the team here with magic bounce, and like Enoch said, Ghost still has things like lead Froslass. When you think of the pressure Ghost is able to put on with both Sableye and Aegislash, the other player will constantly be second guessing if they can set hazards or not. While this may seem repetitive, Ghost's team with both Mega Sableye and Aegislash together is simply too unbreakable of a core.

You can't say that Mega Sableye "doesn't receive as much support" on ghost because that simply isn't true.

As of now I haven't heard any real arguments to keeping on Ghost other than the fact that Dark as a whole performs better as a type than Ghost. If we're going to ban it from Dark and leave it on Ghost we need to think of better reasons to keep it on Ghost rather than the only argument being that Ghost is a bad type.

If we keep the mentality that just because a type is subpar we can add overpowered Pokemon to it, we're going to keep corrupting the meta by keeping pokemon like Shaymin Sky, Kyurem White (we need to revisit these) and Mega Sableye.

(This post isn't directed to anyone specifically)

I never once said that Mega Sableye was overpowered on Ghost teams. On Dark teams, it is, and that's obvious. As far as I've seen, no one is disagreeing with banning Mega Sableye on Dark teams. There has to be a reason why so many people, including the tier leader as far as I know, think that Sableye can stay on Ghost teams. That reason is that it is not overpowered on Ghost, at least in our opinions.

On Ghost teams, it is entirely up to the Ghost user's prediction abilities. On Dark, even if the battler screws up and lets the hazards get set up or accidentally lets Sableye get statused before it mega evolves, you have safety nets. That's basically what it comes down to. Dark has Heal Bell on Umbreon, Defog on Mandibuzz, Bisharp to take advantage of Sticky Web or Defog if the opponent uses either of those, and Greninja (for now) to clean up anything left alive after Sableye is gone. Essentially the reason why Sableye is overwhelming on Dark teams and it's not on Ghost is that Dark teams are much more forgiving of mistakes. Screw up with Mega Sableye on a Dark team? No big deal. It's teammate can cover for it. Screw up on a Ghost team? Oh, too bad. You're stuck with that mistake and it's not going away for the rest of the battle.