Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[InfernapeTropius11]

I honestly hate that I have to say this because it's just sad that it's come to this point, but this thread is for discussing the Monotype metagame. If you disagree with someone and want to present an argument as to why you disagree, that is acceptable and encouraged as long as you do it respectfully. I don't want to overstep my boundaries, but this needs to be said: If you're looking to simply insult someone because you think they're inferior to you, I suggest you go somewhere else. You're not welcome here.

That being said, I think it's safe to say that there is very little that hasn't been brought forward as an argument for or against the bans of Mega Charizard X, Kyurem-W, or Skymin. These topics have been debated TO DEATH. Now, I'm not saying the debating needs to stop. That would defeat the purpose of this thread. But if we're going to continue to debate these topics, it needs to be more controlled and less idiotic.

Now a few posts were made in response to Eevee General 's mini project, but they only scratched the surface.



Monotype is an amazing metagame and arguably the most popular OM. There has to be a reason for that. So why don't we try to figure that out as a community?
I'm going to add on a few more questions to the original post:

-If you originally came from the OU metagame, does battling in Monotype change the way you see strategy? After experiencing monotype, did you battle differently in OU? If so, how and why do you think so?
-What makes Monotype so popular compared to most of the other OMs? Or am I just living in a fantasy world in which I imagine Monotype is the most popular OM

I'm honestly quite curious what anyone has to say in response to these questions.

OU is slightly different from monotype in the fact that lower tier Pokemon are actually viable in monotype (Weezing, Articuno, Lanturn, etc.), and it limits teambuilding to one type. As all your Pokemon share weaknesses, you need to have answers to those types. The main difference I see, is that in OU you can pick a Pokemon or two and build around them, whereas in mono, you pick a type, build around its weaknesses and expand from there. Here's an example:
Say I wanted to build a poison mono. It is weak to Ground and Psychic. Therefore, I would probably want a ground immune Pokemon, such as Weezing or Crobat and a Psychic immune Pokemon, such as Skuntank or Drapion. Now, not every type has a Pokemon immune to all of its weaknesses, so they have to do with neutralities (such as Mega Venusaur being neutral to Ground [on Poison teams] and Ice/Fire/Bug [Grass teams]).
Now lets say I wanted to build a team with Mega Scizor. In mono, this limits my options to Bug or Steel. In OU, you can use any Pokemon that's not ubers to support it. So, for example, maybe you want Heatran to take Fire moves and WoW, or Rotom-W to handle Fire moves and spread status/cripple walls or Latias for Healing Wish support and also to take the Fire moves it hates. This shows how you have many more options in OU than in monotype, as in mono, your whole team will be weak to Fire, aside from Heatran or neutralities.
I played a bit of OU before I came to mono, and I would say battling in mono has changed the way I battle. I now play a more balanced style of play, rather than picking Pokemon I like and putting cool sounding moves on them rof (back then I thought Zap Plate and Charcoal were the best items lmao). I haven't played much OU since then (mono too addicting o3o) but it did change the way I play, as I am now better at predicting and teambuilding (meaning I can cover my weaknesses better and be a more competitive battler). It also seems a lot easier to build teams after my experience from teambuilding in monotype.
Monotype is different from other OMs, because lower-tier Pokemon become more valuable. I'll elaborate on some examples of Pokemon like this later. It is also fun because it limits teambuilding--meaning you have to be good at making a solid team to be competitive. Admittedly, this can also be a challenge for some people, but if you have a good understanding of type advantages and viable sets, then you can succeed with proper predictions, making it a fun metagame. It also embraces all playstyles (Hyper Offensive, Stall, Balanced, and any variations in there).
If one type has more OU Pokemon that doesn't necessarily mean that type is OP, although generally types with lots of good OU Pokemon tend to be better (like Water). A decent example of the opposite of this is Electric (touchy subject, sorry). They have Rotom-W/Zapdos/Thundy/Magnezone, but are still a low-tier type in mono. A good example of a type with few OU Pokemon is Normal. Only Chansey/Mega Lopunny are OU, but some key members such as Porygon2/Porygon-Z/Miltank/Ditto/Diggersby/Staraptor are not OU, but very good in mono. So, having lots of good OU Pokemon doesn't necessarily mean that said type will be top-tier, and not having many good OU Pokemon doesn't necessarily mean that said type will be low-tier in mono.
I think team cohesiveness is a little more important in monotype than in OU because your type shares weaknesses, and you have to play around and address those weaknesses, whereas OU is basically supporting a powerful Pokemon and setting it up for a sweep (in my experience).
Factors making a Pokemon viable in monotype include how they support their teammates (for clerics), how effective they perform their role overall (staller, wallbreaker, sweeper, cleric, wall, etc.), and how they help address their types weaknesses (through their secondary typing, stats, or ability) allowing them to take on the weaknesses of their type.

Some examples of low-tier Pokemon in OU that shine in monotype

Lanturn (Water). Lanturn is NU but is a great cleric for water. It has access to Heal Bell to cure statused teammates, as well as a slow Volt Switch to bring in sweepers or wallbreakers such as Azumarill, Keldeo, Crawdaunt, or Greninja. Volt Absorb is an awesome ability, as it makes it immune to one of its types weaknesses without being 4x weak to another one.
Scrafty (Fighting). Scrafty is UU but it is pretty good on a Fighting mono, as it is immune to Psychic (one of their weaknesses) with a STAB to wreck them with. With decent boosting options including Bulk Up and Dragon Dance, it can become a formidable Pokemon that can cause rage with its immunity. 4x weak to Fairy though :(
Avalugg (Ice). Avalugg is PU and is one of Ice's most valuable members. With access to Rapid Spin to remove the Stealth Rocks his type hates, as well as great physical bulk, it is a mainstay on most good Ice teams. It also has reliable recovery in Recover and a boosting option in Curse to further boost its physical balk.
Swampert and Quagsire (Water). Swampert is UU and Quagsire is RU, but both are good on Water for a couple of reasons. First of all, both offer an Electric immunity to a type weak to Electric. Swampert is also a pretty good physical wall, and sets Stealth Rock for easier sweeps by Greninja/Keldeo. Quagsire has Unaware to stop set up sweepers cold, as well as reliable recovery (Recover) and Stockpile to boost and wall more stuff. Sadly, both are 4x weak to Grass :(
Weezng (Poison). Weezing is NU. It is great on Poison monos because it has Levitate negating its Ground weakness (a weakness it shares with its teammates). It also has WoW to cripple physical attackers and turn it into a somewhat scary wall, and has Pain Split for some recovery.
Drapion and Skuntank (Poison). Drapion is RU and Skuntank is RU. Both have Poison/Dark typing. This negates their Psychic weakness, which is useful for Poison. Both can threaten Psychic types with their Dark type STABs, and Drapion can run a cool Scope Lens crithax set, while Skuntank is a good hazard remover with Defog and plays mindgames with Pursuit/Sucker Punch.
Hippowdon (Ground). Hippowdon is UU, but is invaluable to Ground teams. It sets Sandstorm for Excadrill sweeps, and is generally helpful, phazing threats, access to reliable recovery, and being a good physical wall you can switch to.
Gastrondon (Ground). Gastrodon is RU, but has Storm Drain, making it immune to Water attacks. This is one of Ground's natural weaknesses, so it is very useful. It is also a decent special wall, completing the famous Gastro/Hippo defensive core.
Ditto (Normal). Ditto is PU, but is great for Normal to discourage set up sweepers, and punish them for setting up. It can even sweep back if you switch properly.
Piloswine (Ice). Piloswine is PU but on Ice it can make a decent physical wall/Stealth Rock setter with Thick Fat giving him a Fire neutrality, and Eviolite further boosting his bulk.
Meloetta (Psychic). Meloetta is RU. It is soooo good though :s. It's typing gives Psychic an immunity to one of their weaknesses--Ghost. It is also a great special wall with Lefties, or it can even run Choice or Ass Vest sets.
Eelektross (Electric). Eelektross is RU. It is one of Electrics most viable physical attackers, and its ability Levitate gives it no weaknesses. It is a pretty good Pokemon for Electric.
Cobalion (Fighting). Cobalion is RU, but is good on Fighting. It has great physical bulk, is a good Rock setter, is neutral to Fairy and Psychic (two of Fighting's weaknesses), has a slow Volt Switch to safely bring in a sweeper/wallbreaker, and is a good status spreader.
Froslass (Ice/Ghost). Froslass is BL2 and is good on Ice for its Fighting immunity. It also is a good Spikes setter for both types, is very fast, and can take a Pokemon down with it with a quick Destiny Bond. Also a good, fast anti-lead with Taunt.
Umbreon (Dark). Umbreon is UU and a great Pokemon for Dark. It is an excellent Toxic staller, and has great team support options through Heal Bell and Wish passing.
Tentacruel (Water). Tentacruel is UU. It is good on Water for its excellent special bulk, and neutrality to Grass. It also sets Toxic Spikes to help its teammates stall.
Porygon2 and Porygon-Z (Normal). Both are UU. Porygon2 is a great wall, and with Chansey forms the fearsome Eviolite twins defensive normal core. Porygon-Z is a great special wallbreaker or sweeper depending on the set you run.
Electivire (Electric). Electivire is NU, but it is one of the best physical attackers Electric has access to. It is a very effective Band/Scarf user.

I think I answered everything, and I apparently have no life, as I just spent I don't even know how long writing this :I

 

[Tyke]

Other Metas Mobile Research Laboratory

Week 4 - Monotype
Topic: Monotype viability vs OU viability

Okay leggo >:D

A pokemon's viability in the monotype meta is based upon not all too different factors than those that determine their viability in other tiers, whether that be OU or NU.

That's not to say every pokemon in PU will have a place in monotype; those pokemon are PU for a reason. But many pokemon that one might typically disregard have much greater value in the context of the monotype tier. The main reason for this is that monotypes by design restrict the pool of pokemon a player can choose from.

Overall, a pokemon's viability in monotype comes down to this (some overlap).

Typing:
If a player used a team of pure fire types, they would never escape the lower rungs of the ladder, because the most basic weakness of a monotype team is the shared typing that holds it together. Therefore a factor in a pokemon's mono-viability is whether it's typing/ability neutralizes typical weaknesses of the team either defensively or offensively. Landorus offers flying valuable electric immunity and ground neutrality. Mega-Venusaur is gives grass neutrality to bug, poison, fire and ice.

Utility:
Some monos need it more than others, but everyone wants a little utility. Utility refers to hazard control, clericing, and anti-stall measures such as taunt or trick/scarfs. The most important of the three in monotype is hazard control, as some monotypes win or lose based upon whether stealth rocks are up (fire/bug/ice/flying). This adds tremendous value to pokemon like Forretress, Armaldo, Torkoal, Tentacruel, Empoleon, and more.

Threat Addressal:
Because of the inherent restrictions monotype places upon teams, players are forced to be creative with the pokemon they have at their disposal to deal with threats from all across the Tier List. Grass teams must deal with Fire, Water teams must deal with Electric, and Flying must deal with Ice. To be successful your team must be equipped to deal with major threats like Mega-Charizard XY or Mega-Metagross or Keldeo or Mega-Sableye, lest you be crushed. Does a pokemon help counter, check, or wall a serious threat?

Team Synergy:
Last of all, Team syngergy is a large factor, perhaps a amalgam of the previous three points. Does the pokemon's typing, ability or movepool add to your team's internal defensive or offensive synergy? Do you have a balance of physical and special offense, or pivot utility, or a certain coverage move?

These are the same questions OU players ask themselves when teambuilding. The main difference in monotype is a severe restriction of choices c:

Okay, so back to this c:

I already wrote out a long enough post about what determines monotype viability that differs from OU and similar Tiers, so i quoted that above.

But I wanted to touch on some more examples of pokemon who while ill-equipped to deal with the tiers or outclassed by other pokemon, have renewed value within the monotype meta.

These are some of my personal favorites :)

Weezing

Type: Poison
Ability: Levitate
BST: 65/90/120/85/70/60
Tier: NU

What Weezing Offers: Weezing is a pure poison type pokemon with high defense, mixed offensive coverage and a strong movepool currently tiered as NU. It's defensive bulk, mono-weakness to psychic (cuz ability levitate), and access to will o wisp and various coverage moves may make it seem desirable, but weezing's lack of reliable recovery (pain split and rest) keep it from rising up the tiers.

In OU: Weezing had short-lived popularity as a Mega-Mawile counter once upon a time. Hence, such days are long gone and now Weezing is entirely outclassed by virtually any of the Rotoms.

In Monotype: Weezing is an asset to poison monotypes as a defensive wall and a check for common threats. Ground immunity is Weezing's most appealing trait, providing poison with switch ins against a huge breadth of physical threats, namely those with edgequake coverage that threatens other poison types with ground immunity like Gengar and Crobat. Access to Will o Wisp and other fire type moves provide poison teams with methods of crippling physical attackers and threatening steel teams. All in all, a solid pokemon.

I T ' S

A

S I S T E R

A C T

Armaldo

Type: Rock/Bug
Ability: Battle Armor, Swift Swim
BST: 75/125/100/70/80/45
Tier: NU

What Armaldo Offers: Armaldo is Rock/Bug type pokemon with decent attack, low speed, and respectable bulk currently ranked in NU. It's most defining feauture is access to rapid spin, but a weakness to rocks and inability to threaten common hazard setters deafens this boon. In terms of it's physical attack, it's decent but not great and without any boosting moves such as shell smash it is easily outsped, revenge killed, or otherwise walled by common defensive pokemon.

In OU: Armaldo doesn't have a place or even a niche in the Gen 6 OU Metagame. Armaldo is outclassed as a rapid spinner and a hazard setter, mostly because armaldo itself is weak to stealth rocks and lacks methods of threatening prominent hazard setter like skarmory, lando-t, or ferrothorn. Lower tiers are equipped with plenty Rock and Bug and Spinning Pokemon, all of which outclass Armaldo in most respects such as Crustle.

In Monotype: While Armaldo offers little to Rock Teams, it provides Bug teams with a combination of utility and offensive coverage they can't get elsewhere. Rapid Spin Utility is a tremendous asset for bug teams, clearing one's side of dangerous hazards (stealth rocks) while leaving any rocks, spikes, or sticky webs previously set in place, paving the way for the volcarona/genesect/mega-pinsir sweep. Additionally, access to stealth rocks helps bug teams lure out defensive nuisances such as skarmory. Armaldo's typing is also an asset for bug teams. Defensively, it grants Armaldo neutrality to Fire and Flying type attacks, allowing Assault Vest Variants to tank crucial hits from opposing threats such as Charizard-Y or Volcarona. Offensively, STAB Rock type moves aid bug against fire and flying teams. A great pokemon.

A R M A L D O

S C H W A Z N A G G E R

Lanturn

Type: Water/Electric
Ability: Water Absorb or Volt Absorb
BST: 125/58/58/76/76/67
Tier: NU

What Lanturn Offers: Lanturn is a water/electric pokemon with bulk, cleric utility, and a strong pivot. It's various status and type immunities, natural bulk, and access to heal bell make Lanturn a strong cleric, threatening physical switch ins with the always-haxy scald/thunder wave or using the switches it forces to gain momentum with a Volt Switch pivot. Lanturn, however, lacks the offensive firepower other water type walls have such as Vaporeon. Lanturn's defense and special defense stats belie it's bulk, as they are bolstered by its large 125 HP stat. Lanturn's has a 2x weakness to ground and grass.
In OU: Lanturn is outclassed in OU by other clerics such as sylveon or Chansey. Even in lower tiers Lanturns only occupies a small niche of usage. In NU it is a strong cleric and pivot, switching into many common threats; but even now audino is slowly inching Lanturn out.

In Monotype: Lanturn is a strong member of any water team. It's most appealing feature is the electric immunity, allowing Lanturn to switch into attacks that would otherwise threaten team members while recovering health via volt absorb. It provides heal bell utility and functions as a strong pivot for water teams through volt switch. It's value as a switch in comes from Lanturn's typing, bulk, and relative lack of exploitable weaknesses. A pokemon that checks one of Lanturn's teammates very rarely has the coverage to harm Lanturn. On teams with Wish Support (alomomola or vaporeon) Lanturn becomes all the more difficult to dispatch. While Lanturn performs similar roles for mono-electric, electric teams have too many other pokemon that take priority. All in all, an excellent pokemon.

L U C K Y

L A N T U R N

Eelektross

Type: Electric
Ability: Levitate
BST: 85/115/80/105/80/50
Tier: RU

What Eelektross Offers: Elektross is a pure electric type with strong mixed offensive stats, low speed, mediocre defenses and a massive movepool that is currently tiered in RU. Both offenses are high enough to run mixed or specialized sets. It's mediocre defenses belie a bulk that arises from a lack of exploitable weakness. However, Elektross's greatest asset is arguably it's incredibly diverse movepool which allows to perform a large variety of roles. Eelektross can function as a physical attacker (u-turn, knock off, drain punch), special attacker (volt switch, flamethrower, giga drain), special wallbreaker (acid spray), phazer (dragon tail, super fang, knock off), or set up physical sweeper (coil), all the while having access to both volt switch and u-turn to pivot.

In OU: Never ever used. There are pokemon that achieve Eelektross's depth of coverage with recovery, better typing, and various other benefits. While Eelektross's movepool gives it unprecedented levels of set variety,

In Monotype: I firmly believe that Eelektross can offer something valuable to every electric team due to it's diverse movepool. Almost all Eelektross wear assault vests to bolster their bulk, but the movesets used vary greatly between different monotype players and the make up of their various teams. The most common sets are usually physical, running moves like drain punch/rock slide/u-turn/knock off to address several threats to electric, such as volcarona or chansey. Other teams, however, use Eelektross's access to super fang, knock off, and dragon tail to run phazing sets that deal with specific threats. I myself use an Acid Spray set with U-turn to capitalize on forced switches and Giga Drain to dispatch of Ground-type Threats. All Electric teams benefit from Eelektross's ground immunity however, and it's a solid addition to any team.

W I G G L E

R I G G L E

That's all for now c:

 

[Crazy Horse]

If you originally came from the OU metagame, does battling in Monotype change the way you see strategy?

After experiencing monotype, did you battle differently in OU? If so, how and why do you think so?

Oh my yes. After battling in monotype teambuilding seemed like a breeze in OU. All in all, I think the exposure monotype puts you to strange mons and sets, Harsh Limits on teambuilding and Focusing on matchups; Made me so much better in OU. When I make an OU team it is as if I just went super saiyan and my limits are gone. I would recommend and player seeking to master the game's core & true potential of gameplay look no further than monotype, because what you learn here prepares you for just about anything.

What makes Monotype so popular compared to most of the other OMs? Or am I just living in a fantasy world in which I imagine Monotype is the most popular OM

Well I think it isn't as gimmicky and doesn't deride much from OU. Also it's not really something that's new. Let's be honest we all said to our friend, "Yo, let's have a battle where we can only use one type." In which there was that "one guy" who would bring dragon. Monotype's Simplicity and rather bread n butter explanation is just attractive compared to other OMs.

 

[scpinion]

-If one type has access to many OU pokemon while another type has only one or two OU pokemon, does that automatically mean the first type is better?

There have been some great posts in response to the OU vs Monotype Mobile Research Laboratory. Lets keep it rolling! I wanted to initiate some discussion on a point that has yet to be brought up, mainly the question quoted above.

Before we can really delve into this question, it would be great to compile a list of OU/unbanned Ubers for each type to aid in the analysis. Now, I would just do it and post it here, but TEG suggested this be a community effort, so I'll get us started with my favorite type and a couple others to provide a point of comparison. Feel free to c/p the quoted bit below and add more to the list!

Types Ordered by Usage

• Flying, 11, Altaria, Charizard, Dragonite, Gliscor, Gyarados, Landorus, Mandibuzz, Salamence, Skarmory, Thundurus, Zapdos
• Steel,
• Water, 6, Greninja, Azumarill, Gyarados, Keldeo, Rotom-Wash, Slowbro
• Psychic,
• Bug,
• Normal, 2, Chansey, Lopunny
• Fighting,
• Fairy,
• Dark,
• Ground,
• Dragon,
• Fire,
• Ghost,
• Poison,
• Ice,
• Electric, 5, Magnezone, Manectric, Rotom-Wash, Thundurus, Zapdos
• Grass,
• Rock,

So what can we learn from just these 4 examples?

Well first, Flying presents the most options when it comes to OU Pokemon with 11 (really there are more if you count Therian forms and Mega's). It has been the most used type since the start of ORAS, and is commonly considered the "easiest" type to use. Normal is also an excellent type in the Monotype metagame, yet it only has access to 2 OU Pokemon. Thus, we can refute the question that was initially posed: The number of OU Pokemon and Monotype viability are not directly correlated.

This assertion is further bolstered by adding Electric and Water. They provide a similar number of OU Pokemon (6 for Water, 5 for Electric), yet Water is a top tier type and Electric is generally considered one of the most difficult to utilize.

This leads me to an additional question I'd love to hear your opinions on. If the raw number of OU Pokemon does not correlate with type viability, what characteristics do? Immunities? "Bulkiness"? Raw Power?

 

[Narset]

There have been some great posts in response to the OU vs Monotype Mobile Research Laboratory. Lets keep it rolling! I wanted to initiate some discussion on a point that has yet to be brought up, mainly the question quoted above.

Before we can really delve into this question, it would be great to compile a list of OU/unbanned Ubers for each type to aid in the analysis. Now, I would just do it and post it here, but TEG suggested this be a community effort, so I'll get us started with my favorite type and a couple others to provide a point of comparison. Feel free to c/p the quoted bit below and add more to the list!



So what can we learn from just these 4 examples?

Well first, Flying presents the most options when it comes to OU Pokemon with 11 (really there are more if you count Therian forms and Mega's). It has been the most used type since the start of ORAS, and is commonly considered the "easiest" type to use. Normal is also an excellent type in the Monotype metagame, yet it only has access to 2 OU Pokemon. Thus, we can refute the question that was initially posed: The number of OU Pokemon and Monotype viability are not directly correlated.

This assertion is further bolstered by adding Electric and Water. They provide a similar number of OU Pokemon (6 for Water, 5 for Electric), yet Water is a top tier type and Electric is generally considered one of the most difficult to utilize.

This leads me to an additional question I'd love to hear your opinions on. If the raw number of OU Pokemon does not correlate with type viability, what characteristics do? Immunities? "Bulkiness"? Raw Power?

To be honest, I think its just a measure of how useful your options are as checks or counters to the most popular pokemon in the metagame. Greninja, for instance, would be less popular if flying were not a popular type, because the need for it is lower. Not to say it would be unpopular, it still checks a lot of stuff, just less popular. Type viability should therefore correlate with the number of usable options you have that check or counter multiple of the most popular Pokemon in the metagame.

 

[Gerard]

For example, let's say Mega Gallade's on a fighting team facing a ground team. They predict you to switch to conkeldurr so switch to Landorus. You predict this and instead go to Gallade. I should point out, at this point, that Landorus is one of the best wallbreakers in the game. Any mon with paper-thin defenses would be utterly destroyed by it. Instead, M-Gallade tanks the earth power, taking 85% max, and gets to +2. Now, most M-Gallade that I see run CC/Knock off or Shadow Sneak/Ice Punch. It misses out on the psychic STAB, but the coverage is very nice, with only Azumarill not being hit at least neutrally. At this point, your opponent is pretty much forced to sack hippowdon then bring in exca to force you out. If you've already taken care of either one of those pokemon, which is pretty much what the rest of the team is there for, then you've won. So no, M-Gallade isn't frail, and no, M-Gallade isn't weak either. If only one of those two pokemon is fainted, it can set up on a wallbreaker then sweep the whole team.

Or... You could sac Landorus. Bring Hippo safely and tank a CC then KO (you're against a pokemon at +2, did you really expect to come out unscarred?). Physically Defensive Hippo lives +2 Close Combat (admittedly it needs to be at 90%+ but it's not like Hippo needs to be used against a bunch of things against Psychic since the only other common physical attacker is Victini, against Fighiting I would be much more scared about Keldeo) and then does 66.9 - 79.1% back + 6.25% (sandstorm). And that is if you don't have ScarfChomp in the back, or any other scarfer for that matter. How about Mamoswine? If your only revenge killer is Excadrill then of course you're gonna get sweeped if you let it die or if sandstorm isn't up. What if that was SD Garchomp or Calm Mind Keldeo?

That's something I have yet to understand. How none of this teams have no revenge killers of any kind. Gallade's bulk might look nice but really 68/95/115 is less physically bulky that Terrakion and it's special bulk, while above average is still only good enough to survive one strong neutral hit. Add to that that your main STAB is Close Combat, how hard is to revenge a pokemon with -1/-1 defenses? It's not. MegaGallade won't be able to come in repeatedly, boost, and kill stuff then switch. If MegaGallade's team has weakened all of it's counters, got rid of revenge killers and then MegaGallade comes in and sweeps you. Then that's exactly what was supposed to happen and MegaGallade's team played right and should win.

 

[DoW]

Or... You could sac Landorus. Bring Hippo safely and tank a CC then KO (you're against a pokemon at +2, did you really expect to come out unscarred?). Physically Defensive Hippo lives +2 Close Combat (admittedly it needs to be at 90%+ but it's not like Hippo needs to be used against a bunch of things against Psychic since the only other common physical attacker is Victini, against Fighiting I would be much more scared about Keldeo) and then does 66.9 - 79.1% back + 6.25% (sandstorm). And that is if you don't have ScarfChomp in the back, or any other scarfer for that matter. How about Mamoswine? If your only revenge killer is Excadrill then of course you're gonna get sweeped if you let it die or if sandstorm isn't up. What if that was SD Garchomp or Calm Mind Keldeo?

That's something I have yet to understand. How none of this teams have no revenge killers of any kind. Gallade's bulk might look nice but really 68/95/115 is less physically bulky that Terrakion and it's special bulk, while above average is still only good enough to survive one strong neutral hit. Add to that that your main STAB is Close Combat, how hard is to revenge a pokemon with -1/-1 defenses? It's not. MegaGallade won't be able to come in repeatedly, boost, and kill stuff then switch. If MegaGallade's team has weakened all of it's counters, got rid of revenge killers and then MegaGallade comes in and sweeps you. Then that's exactly what was supposed to happen and MegaGallade's team played right and should win.

The point I was making wasn't that fighting easily won this scenario, but rather that M-Gallade could set up on the most powerful wallbreaker in the game, and still put itself in a good position. And of course it doesn't beat revenge killers, that's the way the game works. But fighting's got five whole other pokes, and its win condition is to weaken hippo and take out exca, or to take out hippo. I think I not only showed that your argument M-Gallade is weak is incorrect, and that fighting can't give enough support to bring it in was incorrect, but also that Mega Gallade is strong as well. I am not saying M-Gallade is broken against ground.

Please take another look at this post:

Anyway, I want to talk about Galladite in this post. Mega Gallade is probably even worse than Mega Medicham, due to its bulk and dirty Bulk Up Drain Punch sets that some carry. This is totally devastating to every normal team and most steel teams. Some run just an offensive SD variant, which is probably more destructive. Mega Gallade, just like Mega Mawile, needs to set one SD and the pressure is on. Unless you have a physical scarfer (assuming it is at full health and can survive a +2 shadow sneak), most will fall to a +2 CC or Drain Punch. Taking a look on how teams manage against Mega Gallade:

normal - will get dominated, even with mega arduino.

fire - can apply great offensive pressure, and runs nice scarf users, so probably neutral.

water - can hope for scald burns, but if on psychic teams, the burn will be healed. other than that, the offensive pressure gets too much for water. slowbro gets deck'd by knock off

electric - deck'd. can have rotom-w as a check assuming its at full health, lanturn with twave, but again, if these mons arent at full health, its over. fighting will never allow that and psychic can stall it out.

grass - can hope for skymin hax. not good enough reasoning though

ice - can apply heavy damage with kyurem-w draco or ice punch weavile. but drain punch will give back a lot of hp. so ice will struggle heavily.

fighting - neutral.

poison - if(psycho cut) { deck'd; }

ground - hippo can check for so long, and sand rush excadrill can hope for iron head flinches or ko with earthquake if gallade is damaged. would be a bit of a struggle

flying - skarmory can hold it off until it sd's and ruins everything with ice punch. zard mega x can be bulky and WoW but if its +2, don't think it'd survive.

psychic - whoever +2's with gallade first and shadow sneak/knock off spams.

bug - mega pinsir is tanned but its outsped, so need to make sure mega gallade is weakened before quick attacking. probably neutral matchup

rock - rof

ghost - knock off spam, sneak spam, though aegislash and mega sableye can probably hold its own and support the team well.

dragon - offensive usually, so classic outrage spam would probably be fine, but its a poor playstyle in other scenarios.

dark - reliant on mega sableye and greninja to hold off and revenge kill respectively. not good enough as mega gallade can sub/sd/bulk up

steel - overwhelming pressure. if skarmory is gone, gonna have a hard time.

fairy - clefable is a great wall, as is prankster klefki t-wave to cripple it. fairy could hold its own i believe

Just a quick analysis on how teams match against this powerful mega in my opinion and experiences, so share your thoughts on that for the community to read and think about. Having said all of that, I am supportive of a global ban for Galladite, though I want to hear what the community has to say. Also, please note anyone can talk and vent their thoughts here. You don't need an invitation to post here, as someone above implied.

THESE are the reasons I think M-Gallade is broken: it destroys far too many of these types with a little team support, or else have to rely on either hax or a single anti-fighting poke to try to deal with it.

And of course you can revenge kill it. You can revenge kill anything. Revenge killing is not enough. If your only option is to revenge kill something, then that thing gets a kill every time it comes in, and it's basically game over unless you predict its switch-in every time it comes in. So no, the fact it can be revenge killed, especially when all its teammates are doing everything they can to defeat the revenge killers, doesn't really mean all that much.

 

[BlackSchwan]

grass - can hope for skymin hax

Imo Grass would usually lose to Mega Gallade anyway. Skymin is literally the only way to take it down and hax will not help you here. Lets not forget that Mega Gallade cannot be flinched due to Inner Focus. And with its handy Special bulk it would be able to tank a Air Slash of two and then KO back with Ice Punch or hit Skymin first with Shadow Sneak. The only other ways to take it down would be Sash Loom (Assuming Sash is not broken) and Serperior depending on whether or not Serp has enough boosts to KO with Leaf Storm. And even then Serp can be KO'd by Shadow Sneak if it's within range.

Gallade can almost single-handedly or with support (Mainyly on Psychic) wreck many mono's making it a hugely unbalanced mon for the metagame. And if a full ban does not come to pass, I think a type ban to Fighting would be appropriate due to Fighting needing a large amount of force to win some matchups, due to the lack of walls/support that type has at it's disposal

 

[Lilymoding]

To be honest, I think its just a measure of how useful your options are as checks or counters to the most popular pokemon in the metagame. Greninja, for instance, would be less popular if flying were not a popular type, because the need for it is lower. Not to say it would be unpopular, it still checks a lot of stuff, just less popular. Type viability should therefore correlate with the number of usable options you have that check or counter multiple of the most popular Pokemon in the metagame.

On paper that sounds great (and I don't think Flying leaving the metagame would make Greninja less popular at all because Ice Beam(For grass)/Low Kick is extremely helpful on Water while Gunk Shot is nice on a Dark team, but that's beside the point), but the fact of the matter is that a good mono core needs to worry about it's weaknesses. When building a Water team, Grass and Electric are really not that common on ladder (That may contribute to it being such a top tier type), but those types are still running around, and still require your attention, no matter who uses them on the ladder. As for type viability, your model of being able to check the most popular types, wouldn't that cause a never-resting cycle of the meta? If you have a type that can REALLY check and destroy flying (If one exists lmao), then according to that model it would rise in popularity. Until it gets to the top, then another type moves in to check that one, and on and on, etc. Basically, where would it end? I won't hate on the idea, mainly because its a good idea in theory and it would take me a while to come up with mine, just wondering if you took this into consideration.

Basically summary: Just because a type isn't used as much does NOT mean you should prepare for it less, and that model causes the stats list to do way too many laps around the types.

Also another thing I realized while writing this post, if you are a type that has non-common weaknesses (i.e Water, Dragon, weaknesses being Grass and Ice respectively), these people will more likely than not be low on the ladder because it's just difficult to ladder with them. Ergo, if you don't prepare for those weaknesses as much, you're risking losing massive points on the ladder because you overlooked that small detail.

Imo

 

[Narset]

On paper that sounds great (and I don't think Flying leaving the metagame would make Greninja less popular at all because Ice Beam(For grass)/Low Kick is extremely helpful on Water while Gunk Shot is nice on a Dark team, but that's beside the point), but the fact of the matter is that a good mono core needs to worry about it's weaknesses. When building a Water team, Grass and Electric are really not that common on ladder (That may contribute to it being such a top tier type), but those types are still running around, and still require your attention, no matter who uses them on the ladder. As for type viability, your model of being able to check the most popular types, wouldn't that cause a never-resting cycle of the meta? If you have a type that can REALLY check and destroy flying (If one exists lmao), then according to that model it would rise in popularity. Until it gets to the top, then another type moves in to check that one, and on and on, etc. Basically, where would it end? I won't hate on the idea, mainly because its a good idea in theory and it would take me a while to come up with mine, just wondering if you took this into consideration.

Basically summary: Just because a type isn't used as much does NOT mean you should prepare for it less, and that model causes the stats list to do way too many laps around the types.

Also another thing I realized while writing this post, if you are a type that has non-common weaknesses (i.e Water, Dragon, weaknesses being Grass and Ice respectively), these people will more likely than not be low on the ladder because it's just difficult to ladder with them. Ergo, if you don't prepare for those weaknesses as much, you're risking losing massive points on the ladder because you overlooked that small detail.

Imo

The type that does destroy flying, Ice, loses to so much of the rest of the metagame that it just never got to top usage. Water, which is in my mind the second best at this job, is highly competitive in the metagame and thus is the third most popular. Also, a water team on the ladder is far more likely to plan for Grass and Electric pokemon rather than teams, because parts of the grass and electric teams are used on more prominent types while the other parts of those teams aren't. I don't see many water players planning for Electivire, for instance.

Also, the meta really is a never ending cycle, to a degree. You check Pokemon A with Pokemon B. To get past Pokemon B, the player using Pokemon A will use Pokemon C as a teammate. The player with Pokemon B will therefore use Pokemon D to get past Pokemon C. This just keeps repeating, with all of the pokemon that are the best at getting past each other coming to a full circle at some point. Now, this is all well and good, except one thing. We have teambuilding limitations. Therefore, our metagame contains Pokemon that check the most popular Pokemon that are not ordinarily seen in another tier.

This is where the viability of Pokemon such as Galvantula or Lanturn, who are not good in OU, begins to come into play. However, as those checks to specific threats become more popular, ways to get past them, if required, are used. Because of this process that eventually loops around, which is why there's only a limited number of things considered viable options in any given tier, things will eventually set into a rigid pattern. It takes a pretty big shock, such as ORAS introducing new megas or bans/unbans, to change things after the pattern sets in. The stats page offers a chance to observe this in a comprehensive manner and helps players to plan for the most popular Pokemon. For instance, 15.422184% (If I calculated this correctly) of the teams appearing in battles that were used to compile the statistics of December contained a Skarmory. This is probably the most popular Pokemon in our metagame, and it checks a significant portion of our metagame. Therefore, players should plan for it (if required).

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

There have been some great posts in response to the OU vs Monotype Mobile Research Laboratory. Lets keep it rolling! I wanted to initiate some discussion on a point that has yet to be brought up, mainly the question quoted above.

Before we can really delve into this question, it would be great to compile a list of OU/unbanned Ubers for each type to aid in the analysis. Now, I would just do it and post it here, but TEG suggested this be a community effort, so I'll get us started with my favorite type and a couple others to provide a point of comparison. Feel free to c/p the quoted bit below and add more to the list!



So what can we learn from just these 4 examples?

Well first, Flying presents the most options when it comes to OU Pokemon with 11 (really there are more if you count Therian forms and Mega's). It has been the most used type since the start of ORAS, and is commonly considered the "easiest" type to use. Normal is also an excellent type in the Monotype metagame, yet it only has access to 2 OU Pokemon. Thus, we can refute the question that was initially posed: The number of OU Pokemon and Monotype viability are not directly correlated.

This assertion is further bolstered by adding Electric and Water. They provide a similar number of OU Pokemon (6 for Water, 5 for Electric), yet Water is a top tier type and Electric is generally considered one of the most difficult to utilize.

This leads me to an additional question I'd love to hear your opinions on. If the raw number of OU Pokemon does not correlate with type viability, what characteristics do? Immunities? "Bulkiness"? Raw Power?

I commented on this a bit in my previous post, but not really in-depth. Having many OU Pokemon is a partial, and perhaps beginning indicator of type viability in Monotype, but it is not the only indicator (also, you stole all my examples, gdi scp <.<).
Anyway I will elaborate below, but here is a pretty basic summary of the OU Pokemon situation:
Flying: it has many OU Pokemon and is a top-tier type in mono.
Electric: it has many OU Pokemon, but is NOT a top-tier type in mono.
Normal: it has few OU Pokemon, but is a top-tier type in mono
Rock: it has few OU Pokemon and is NOT a top-tier type in mono
So, OU Pokemon can sometimes be a good indicator, but other times not as much.

Why? I believe there are a few reasons:
1. Type diversity. Flying exemplifies this perfectly, as it has a dual typing with every type in the game. This gives it many options when teambuilding to counter specific threats/types, or to simply form a solid core of Pokemon that can put up a fight against most types. Water is similar as well, with access to many alternate typing through dual typing, including Electric, Ground, Psychic, Dark, Flying, Grass, Rock, Fairy, Fighting, and I think a couple more (tired/not on PS so I can't check). They also have Greninja, lol. This is not the only factor however, as it doesn't explain Normal, which often has at least two single type Pokemon, and not many viable dual typing options.

2. Defensive Team Support. This is where Normal shines. With access to a variety of bulky Pokemon who can tank hits for teammates, and Pokemon with wide support movepools (through Heal Bell, Wish, Stealth Rock, etc.) they are one of the best types that exemplify this point. Another excellent (and possibly the best) example is Psychic. They have a variety of bulky Pokemon with access to moves such as Light Screen, Reflect, Healing Wish, Heal Bell, Wish, and hazards. Flying also has good team support, through Heal Bell, Defog, and often having good switchins. So basically, this point is about walls and Pokemon with wide support movepools.

3. Offensive Team Support. This is also a key to monotype, as not every team has exemplary defensive support. One of the best examples is Fighting. They have no way to cure status, no Wish passers, and limited walls that don't have reliable recovery anyway. What they do have plenty of, however, is offensive Pokemon. With access to plentiful wallbreakers and sweepers including Mega Medicham, Mega Gallade, Terrakion, Keldeo, Heracross, Hawlucha, and Infernape, their offensive pressure and offensive team support is exemplary. Whereas types such as Normal stall out threats, types such as Fighting switch to a powerful teammate who can eliminate the threat through sheer force (get it? Huh? Sorry...). Bug is also generally a more offensively oriented team with Volcarona, Genesect, Scizor (and it's Mega), Heracross (and it's Mega), Mega Pinsir, Mega Beedrill, and Galvantula. For example, let's say Heatran comes in on Volcarona, and you don't have HP Ground. You can switch to Heracross or Mega Pinsir to take it out. A variety of Phsyical and Special attackers is also necessary (if you have no special attackers, physical walls wall you and vice versa).

4. Immunities/Neutralities/Resistances to weaknesses (Weakness Control). This is one of the most important factors to consider when teambuilding. If you simply accept the fact that you will lose and win by type matchups, you won't get very far in your competitive monotype career. For example Flying covers its weaknesses well: Rock (Landorus/Skarmory/Mega Gyarados/Mega Altaria are all neutral), Electric (Landorus/Gliscor are immune, Mega Charizard X/Mega Altaria resist, Zapdos/Thundy-I/Dragonite/Altaria are neutral, Thundy-Therian is immune by ability), and Ice (Mega Gyarados resists, Mega Char X/Mega Char Y/Skarmory/Articuno are neutral). So it has answers to all of its weaknesses. Water is also well equipped to deal with weaknesses: Electric (Swampert/Quagsire/Gastrodon/Mega Swampert are all immune, Ludicolo/Rotom-Wash/Kingdra are neutral, Lanturn is immune by ability) and Grass (Tentacruel/Ludicolo/Kingdra/Empoleon are all neutral, Azumarill is immune by ability).And then there is steel with the famous immunity core: Fighting (Doublade is immune, Jirachi/Metagross/Mega Metagross/Skarmory/Scizor/Forretress/Mawile/Klefki are all neutral, Mega Aggron only takes 1.5x damage instead of 2x damage because of Filter), Fire (Heatran is immune because of its ability, Empoleon is neutral, Mega Aggron only takes 1.5x damage instead of 2x damage because of Filter), and Ground (Skarmory is immune [barring right after it Roosts], anything with Air Balloon is immune, Scizor/Forretress/Ferrothorn are neutral, Mega Aggron only takes 1.5x damage instead of 2x damage because of Filter). These are the three most used types, so it is clear that weakness control plays a large role in monotype competitiveness. Not only that, but the types they are immune/neutral/resistant to that are type weaknesses can be hit for SE damage by these Pokemon. Simply taking the hit alright does nothing if you can't retaliate and kill it back. Going down the list, Earth Power/Focus Blast, Iron Head, and Waterfall are SE on Rock, Earth Power/EQ are SE on Electric, Flare Blitz/Fire Blast/Iron Head are SE on Ice (Flying). EQ/Earth Power are SE on Electric, Acid Spray/Sludge Bomb is SE on Grass (this retaliation is kinda lacking) (Water). Whatever Psychic move you use/Brave Bird/Play Rough/Draining Kiss is SE on Fighting, Heatran has Earth Power/Ancient Power and Empoleon has Scald to be SE on Fire, Power Whip is SE on Ground (this retaliation is kinda lacking) (Steel).

5. Low number of weaknesses. No matter how much you prepare, your team will likely still have a disadvantage against your weaknesses (there is only so much you can do about it, it's a part of Pokemon, and if you over prepare too much, you will be disadvantaged in other matchups). Generally the top-tier types will have 3 or less weaknesses (the top 10 types of Flying, Water, Steel, Normal, Psychic, Bug, Fighting, Fairy, Dark, and Ground all have 3 or less weaknesses, with 4 of them having 2 or less). Teams like Grass (5 weaknesses), Ice (4 weaknesses), and Rock (5 weaknesses) are lower tier types. So, natural weaknesses also plays a role in type viability.

6. Number of OU Pokemon. This isn't the best indicator, so that is why I am listing it last. It does play somewhat of a role in the fact that types with many OU Pokemon have a teambuilding advantage in that they have more top-tier options, without having to dig through the lower tiers. If you have 5 or more Pokemon in OU then that shows you have many OU Pokemon.

To conclude, all of these points can affect a type's viability. If a type gets 6/6, meaning it is good in every category, then you should expect to see it near the top of the usage stats as a good type to use. If it gets something around or less than 4/6, chances are it is not as good. I'll rank the types now based on my opinion, feel free to correct me if you feel I got something wrong. I can also elaborate on my reasoning if you would like, put I feel most of them will be pretty self-explanatory:

Flying: 6/6 (no surprises there lol)
Steel: 6/6
Water: 6/6
Psychic: 6/6
Bug: 4.5/6 (I gave them 0.5 on Defensive support, as they have Rapid Spin/hazards which are important, especially for a type weak to Stealth Rock, but no Wish/Heal Bell Pokemon)
Normal: 4.5/6 (I gave them 0.5 on Type Diversity as they don't have a wide pool of viable dual typings--it is pretty much limited to Fighting/Fairy (which they can only have 1 of), Ground, Flying, and Psychic, and maybe Electric/Fire, but Pyroar/Heliolisk aren't really viable)
Fighting: 5/6
Fairy: 5/6
Dark: 6/6
Ground: 4/6
Dragon: 5/6
Fire: 3.5/6 (I gave them 0.5 on weakness control as they don't have a Pokemon neutral to water--they rely on Sun, which only lasts a few turns)
Ghost: 3.5/6 (I gave them 0.5 on Offensive Team Support as their physical attacking options are pretty limited--Aegislash is good, but then the next best one if Golurk or Trevenant/Gourgeist, who are better as a Rock setter and stallers respectively)
Poison: 3/6
Ice: 2/6
Electric: 4/6
Grass: 3/6
Rock: 3/6 (I gave them 0.5 on defensive support, as they have walls, but limited support movepools, and 0.5 on weakness control, as they rely heavily on Solid Rock Rhyperior, Filter Mega Aggron, and Storm Drain Cradily for weakness control, so Mold Breaker wrecks them. They also kind of rely on Ass Vest (Rhyperior or Tyranitar) for special walls, so Knock Off/Trick hurt)

Analysis:
There should be no surprise that the top-tier types rated so highly, often getting full marks. There also shouldn't be a surprise in that low-tier types generally got in the 2-3 range. There were a few surpirses--Electric had the rating of a middle tier type, like Ground/Fire, but is hardly used. At a guess, I would say this is because EdgeQuake is one of the most common move combos in the game, and hits almost everything on Electric for SE damage. Also, most Electric Pokemon tend to be fast, hard-hitting special Pokemon, and they lack excellent walls, great physical attackers, and viable Wish passers/hazard setters. Bug and Normal got pretty low for top-tier types as well. This is probably because they excel specific areas, outshining their limitedness in other areas (Bug is a more Offensive type with access to Genesect/Scizor/Mega Pinsir/Heracross/Volcarona/Mega Beedrill, and Normal is stally asf, with Chansey/Porygon2/Blissey/Bulkyraptor/Mega Audino). Dark was also surprise, getting full marks, but being only a mid-tier types. Other than that, you could pretty much guess a type's ranking based on the usage statistics--top tier types got 6/6, mid-high tier types got 5/6, middle-low tier types got 3.5-4/6, and low tier types got 2-3/6.

Now, to complete scpinion's list:
Types Ordered by Usage

• Flying, 11, Altaria, Charizard, Dragonite, Gliscor, Gyarados, Landorus, Mandibuzz, Salamence, Skarmory, Thundurus, Zapdos
• Steel, 8, Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Magnezone, Metagross, Scizor, Skarmory
• Water, 6, Greninja, Azumarill, Gyarados, Keldeo, Rotom-Wash, Slowbro
• Psychic, 9, Gallade, Gardevoir, Gothitelle, Latias, Latios, Metagross, Mew, Slowbro, Deoxys (Speed and Defense only)
• Bug, 4, Genesect, Heracross, Pinsir, Scizor
• Normal, 2, Chansey, Lopunny
• Fighting, 6, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Gallade, Heracross, Keldeo, Terrakion
• Fairy, 4, Azumarill, Clefable, Gardevoir, Sylveon
• Dark, 5, Bisharp, Mandibuzz, Sableye, Tyranitar, Greninja
• Ground, 5, Excadrill, Garchomp, Gliscor, Landorus (Incarnate and Therian), Mamoswine
• Dragon, 7, Altaria, Dragonite, Garchomp, Kyurem-Black, Latias, Latios, Salamence
• Fire, 2, Charizard, Heatran
• Ghost, 3, Aegislash, Gengar, Sableye
• Poison, 2, Gengar, Venusaur
• Ice, 2, Kyurem (White and Black), Mamoswine
• Electric, 5, Magnezone, Manectric, Rotom-Wash, Thundurus, Zapdos
• Grass, 4, Shaymin-Sky, Breloom, Ferrothorn, Venusaur
• Rock, 2, Terrakion, Tyranitar

Note that Megas and Alternate formes do NOT count as separate Pokemon, as you can only have one of them when building a team (meaning, I can't have both Lando-I and Lando-T or both Metagross (with an item other than Metagrossite) and Mega Metagross), so they don't count as different Pokemon. I also excluded banned OU Pokemon (like Talonflame) and included unbanned Ubers (such as Skymin/Kyurem-White/Genesect).

Also, thanks to scpinion for starting the list and reminding me about Deoxys D/S (Psychic) and Greninja (Dark) cuz I forgot about them.

 

[Sabella]

Narset btw sub cm raikou sets up all over zapdos and toge and articuno i suggest u watch my replay of me vs a fly team with zard x and salamence a good player knows his situations and win cons you just have to create the opportunity. its trouble some for electric but electric can deff beat it if u create an opportunity. This is not an insult just want to show u guys it can be done. If tesla can beat it we can too lol

 

[Gerard]

The point I was making wasn't that fighting easily won this scenario, but rather that M-Gallade could set up on the most powerful wallbreaker in the game, and still put itself in a good position. And of course it doesn't beat revenge killers, that's the way the game works. But fighting's got five whole other pokes, and its win condition is to weaken hippo and take out exca, or to take out hippo. I think I not only showed that your argument M-Gallade is weak is incorrect, and that fighting can't give enough support to bring it in was incorrect, but also that Mega Gallade is strong as well. I am not saying M-Gallade is broken against ground.

Please take another look at this post:
THESE are the reasons I think M-Gallade is broken: it destroys far too many of these types with a little team support, or else have to rely on either hax or a single anti-fighting poke to try to deal with it.

And of course you can revenge kill it. You can revenge kill anything. Revenge killing is not enough. If your only option is to revenge kill something, then that thing gets a kill every time it comes in, and it's basically game over unless you predict its switch-in every time it comes in. So no, the fact it can be revenge killed, especially when all its teammates are doing everything they can to defeat the revenge killers, doesn't really mean all that much.

The post you just quoted had several instances of "hope it gets flinched" to win against MeGallade, so sorry if I don't think it's a good argument.

If that thing needs to set up every time just to kill something and then has to switch out again then yeah, Revenge Killing is enough. Gallade needs to be at +2 to sweep and that is not easy to achieve unless you're

Normal: Defensive Mega Audino can survive +2 CC and proceed to Thunder Wave -> Use Dazzling Gleam to take ~70% of it's Health. The worst match of all types but Gallade's being able to sweep normal at +2 is the same as Terrakion sweeping Normal at +2. Mega Pidgeot kills without trouble. Swellow can even without status. Scarf Staraptor too. Scarf Diggersby, Exploud and Mega-Lopunny can if weakened enough (one seismic toss or one tri-attack it's enough). Also most of the things Mega Gallade can boost against carry some kind of status which means that even if it boosts it has to switch out to even have a shot at healing back. Not good but miles better than Mega Scizor vs Ice.

Fire: Good luck trying to find an opening to use SD. All the defensive pokemon has WoW and all the offensive ones are gonna take over half your health. Both Torkoal and Arcanine can be made bulky enough to tank you and either burn you or just weaken you with Lava Plume / Flare Blitz. Both Arcanine and Entei have ES to make revenge easier. Volcarona outspeeds you before Megavolving, Quiver Dances to outspeed you next turn (as you only OHKO at +1) and OHKOes with Fire Blast. The same with Charizard X. Charizard Y only needs to use FB. Scarf Darmanitan. Scarf Chandelure. Scarf Victini. Fletchinder. Mega Houndoom. All kill you at -1 and they all outspeed you even without the Scarf if you haven't Megavolved yet. You can sweep this team at +2 but getting there is almost impossible and revenging you is easy.

Water. If Rain then everything outspeeds you and kills you. Ludicolo, Kindgra, Kabutops, Swampert. SR + Water move of choice kills you. Defensive Water Teams are easier to play against but everything has Scald and having to heal and come back to boost makes it incredibly hard for Gallade to sweep through teams unless he gets lucky. Gyarados is a full stop and both Normal and Mega can boost alongside you and KO you (not to mention those annoying 50/50 in fighting about whether to use Zen Headbutt or Close Combat). Greninja 2HKOes with everything (Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Ice Beam, Bounce?) and it's just as hard to predict. Starmie is faster and KOes with Hydro pump. Mega Sharpedo with Crunch. Crawdawnt's Aqua Jet. Scarf Keldeo. All with only a little prior damage. If you're running it on Psychic it's likely to forget Zen Headbutt in which case Azumarril, Qwillfish and Tentacruel check it pretty well.

Electric. This one is tricky. It can set up on most stuff but it risks getting paralyzed or statused. Mega Manectric can switch in and Volt Switch + Thunderbolt (-1) will kill. Thundurus can Thunder Wave or KO if Gallade is under 60. About the same as Jolteon. Raikou's Specs Shadow Ball does 75+ (and thunderbolt OHKOes at -1). CS Magnezone does 70%. Galvantula can also use Sticky Web in order to make it one hundred times easier to kill (since she also beats Hitmontop and Lati@s)

Grass: Shymin-S LO Air Slash OHKOes. Venusaur walls it if you're not using Zen Heabutt (so, if you're using it in Psychic more likely). Mega Sceptile's Leaf Storm does 75+ (OHKO at -1). Tangrowth can tank a hit and do heavy damage back with Power Whip or use Sleep Powder (and it's not hard to keep alive thanks to regenerator). LO Serperior does 60%+ with Leaf Storm. Offensive Whimsicott OHKOes (Don't hate unless you try it). Shiftry's Sucker Punch does 87 minium and Cacturne's OHKOes. Meanwhile there are not many opportunities to set up. Breloom (Spore, Bullet Seed & then the shash), Trevenant, Gourgeist (Stab Ghost & WoW), Whimsicott (Encore, Memento), Amoongus (Spore), Ferrothorn (Leech Seed, Gyro Ball, Thunder Wave, Power Whip, Iron Barbs...), Chesnaught (Wood Hammer, Leech Seed). The best "chance" I can think it's Roserade if something has already been asleep. Regular Shaymin (who uses this?). NP Celebi if it hasn't boost yet. Even stuff that you think you can use SD on can really screw you over CB Breloom does 41.5 Minimum with Match Punch.

Ice: Choice Scarf Kyurem (Black of White) OHKO. Weavile's Icicle Crash OHKOes at +1 and heavily damages even without. Bulk Up is harder to kill but Kyurem works the same and now Articuno can OHKO with Hurricane. Froslass Speed Ties and either Thunder Wave, Destiny Bonds, can disable something. Not to mention Ice Shards on everything.

Fighting: Setting up against Fighting is better said than done. You can use SD if you're against Scrafty (Justified means he either does little damage or you get to +3), but only if he hasn't boosted yet. AV Conkeldurr (65 minimun), Hitmontop can't do much about it either. Still, everything on Fight outspeeds you before Megavolving, and if they took 50% or more then everything else on the team can easily revenge you. Lucario's ES. CS Terrakion / Keldeo / Heracross. Hawlucha. CB Breloom (remember 41 minimum). Mega Lopunny. Toxycroak's Sucker Punch and Mega Medicham's Fake Out can finish it if weakened enough.

Poison: In fighting this is much easier because you actually have the psychic STAB. On psychic on the other hand you're gonna be much more likely to just straight up attack. Still Crobat outspeeds you anyway and OHKOes with Brave Bird with minimal investment. MegaBeedril does 80%+ with Poison Jab and 2HKOes with U-turn + Poison Jab. Gengar speed ties and OHKOes with Shadow Ball. Scoolipede KOes with a little prior damage with Megahorn. Without Zen Heabutt Mega Venusaur, Qwilfish, Tentacruel, Garbodor all wall you. Setting up isn't easy either as you don't resist poison and many pokemon have a status move / strong STAB to hit you and live you in revenge kill range.

Ground: A ton of revenge killers and almost no pokemon to boost. Gastrodon has Scald & Clear Smog. Hippodown has Whirlwind. Gliscor outspeeds you before Megavolving and either subs or toxic stall. Quagsire doesn't mind your boosts. and Everything else has STAB ground move to pound you with. You will probably lose 50%+ of your health while setting up and at that point. CS Diggersby / Garchomp / Krookodile / Landorus-T / Flygon. CB Diggersby. LO Mamoswine. ES Zygarde. SR Sandslash / Excadrill. Dugtrio. Sucker Punch Golem.

Flying: You're gonna have a HARD time trying to set up on ANYTHING. Defog Zapdos is your best bet. either way you lose 40% of your health, just enough so that CB ES from Dragonite finishes you. Mega Pidgeot, Mega Aerodactyl, Tornadus, Thundurus, Noivern, Crobat, Gyarados, Swellow, Hawlucha, Yanmega, CS Salamence, CS Staraptor, CS Landorus, Sucker Punch Honchcrow, Fletchinder.

Psychic: You wither have Knock off to break through Slowbro / Mew (who are gonna make it REALLY hard for you to sweep) or have Shadow Sneak to beat revenge killers. Scarf Lati@s is common too. So is Scarf Gardevoir. Scarf Victini, Staryu, Azelf and Alakazam outspeed and revenge kill you. MegaMetagross, and regular Latios and Latias speed tie with you which is dangerous as they can easily end your sweep. You can set up against Meloetta but she will take a chunk of your health if you do so, Jirachi is risky, Bronzong will take 50% minimum, Non Thunder Wave Cresselia (though even that, Moonblast does 35% and you don't OHKO so you're getting hit twice). A locked Gothitelle is another good target but a) you just lost something to it & b) you're more than likely weak/neutral to the move she's locked in (Psychic / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt) thus taking 40% of your health.

Bug: Sticky Web does pretty well against Gallade. Bug Types are very offensive so you're gonna have a really hard type to set up your Gallade against them. The most passive pokemon is Forretress which you can easily set up on but at the same time Volt-Switch will bring anything that threatens you out safely. Shuckle has Encore so setting up isn't as easily as it might seem. Accelgor outspeeds and Final Gambits. Genesect OHKOes. Mega Pinsir's Quick attack does 75%+. Mega Beedril's Poison Jab does 80%+. Choice Scarf Heracross OHKOes. Scizor does 50% minimum, Scoolipede. Volcarona can't revenge but in a worst case scenario you even have a 30% shot at burning Gallade.

Rock: Rock has it hard because it's the one of the few types Gallade actually resists. MegaAero is your best bet. I've Seen Sturdy Smash Carracosta (and with Weakness Policy it can become a pretty terrifying pokemon). Mega Diance speed ties and OHKOes and so does Archeops. CS Terrakion / Tyranitar / Tyrantrum can revenge. And so can Aqua Jet Carracosta / Kabutops. Mega Aggron can survive one +2 CC if at full health and invested in defense. Your best bet here is to keep the offensive pressure and try not to let him set up at any time. Which rock does pretty well.

Ghost: Mega Gallade won't get past MegaSableye without help. And Spiritomb is just as bad. Aegislash won't live a +2 Knock Off but King's Shield is annoying like that. No Gallade uses Knock Off + Shadow Sneak so either you can revenge with Scarf Ghosts or you're gonna have an easy time walling it with Aegislash and Dusknoir / clops. Nothing outspeeds and only Gengar and Froslass speed tie, but you won't find set up opportunities very easily. As everything can kill you or burn you. CS Chandelure, Spiritomb, Sableye, Aegislash, Doublade & mega Bannette can either kill or revenge it so you should be fine.

Dragon: Revenger Killers everywhere, Dragon's offensive presence means Setting up is really hard. Every worthy dragon outspeeds you before you megavolve, and even those who don't like Dragalgae or Dudriggon are gonna hurt you pretty badly. Any Scarfed dragon can beat you, just like ES Dragonite / Zygarde if you're weakened enough, Lati@s speed tie, Duddrigon has Sucker Punch / Glare / Rough Skin & Goodra has Gooey. Really, you're just not sweeping a well made Dragon team unless weakened enough.

Dark: Mega Sableye again (Also Spiritomb). Physically Defensive Mandibuzz is a good check if rocks aren't up as it 2hkoes with Foul Play. Greninja Outspeeds and so does Weavile, Sucker Punch anything will take 75% minimum of it's health. Mega Houndoom, Mega Absol & Mega Sharpedo all outspeed and OHKO at -1 or if wekened enough (easy considering you're gonna be using CC most of the time) Crawdawnt's Aqua Jet OHKOes at -1, CS Pangoro, Krokodile, & Hydregon can revenge if weakened too.

Steel: Doublade 2HKOes and can't be OHKOed. Klefki priority T-Wave is enough to stop your sweep. Just like against Dragon there's nothing you can set up and end up unscarred. Only Bronzong (still takes 50% from Gyro Ball) and Choiced Cobalion which are not even common. Revenge killing is harder though because you can't just hope that CS Jirachi will do the trick (tough he can if <50% or it it's at -1 and slightly worn out. Mega Metagross' Bullet punch can finish it off, Choice Scarf Heatran serves well too. Scizor (normal or mega), ES Lucario or SP Bisharp. Ferrothorn can give it's own life to weaken it enough to revenge and Skarm lives a hit from full health and KOes with Brave Bird.

Fairy: You can't set up. Period. Without Zen Headbutt you're walled by every Fairy. Unaware Clefable can wall you all day long either way. Granbull can Switch in and out with little problem. Aromatisse, Sylveon, Togekiss if any of them is Physically Defensive they shrug a +2 Zen Heabutt and cripple you back. Sadly there aren't many Scarfs here but Scarf Gardevoir, CB Azumarril, Offensive Whimsicott can revenge him. Kelfki cripples him once again.

As you can see gallade can set up but not without great danger to himself, he loses half his hp when trying it and then can be revenged, just like in OU, this happens with every other set up sweeper, SD terrakion and Garchomp do the same, Calm Mind Keldeo and DD Charizard X do too. It means they will be incredibly dangerous if they manage to set up so you mucst not let that happen, or at least that if it happens they don't some come out without damage. So that you can actually beat them (or force them out) and make sure they can't so it again.

 

[Tyke]

Okay I'm going to have to wait until I've sobered up before I come back and read this.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Gerard (reply/quoting isn't working right now so tagging you instead of quoting)
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 288-339 (70.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So Mega Audino can live, but only with full defense. Any prior damage and its gone.
4 SpA Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 192-228 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It only does 82.3% max and gets outsped, so its dead. Or, the Mega Gallade user can boost again, and only take ~50%, and OHKO the following turn.
Mega Pidgeot does outspeed and OHKO with Hurricane, but can't switch in as CC OHKOs after rocks, and has a 75% chance to OHKO without rocks so the Normal user will have to sack something.
Scarf Staraptor outspeeds and OHKOs, but is OHKOed by CC so it can't switch in, normal has to sack something.
BulkyRaptor is OHKOed after rocks by +1 Gallade.
Scarf Adamant Diggersby does 95% tops with Return/EQ, so it can only kill if its had prior damage. Is OHKOed back and can't switch in. The Mega Gallade user doesn't even have to boost to OHKO it on the switchin.
Most Exploud run Specs, and as such are outsped and OHKOed. It can't switchin. If it is Scarf, it has a slim chance to OHKO -1 Mega Gallade. Otherwise it does ~60%.
So, if Mega Gallade comes in on something it can outspeed and KO (Specs Exploud, Specs/NP Porygon-Z, a weakened Chansey, Blissey, Porygon2, or BulkyRaptor, etc.) chances are it can nab a kill on that Pokemon or the switchin, or at the very least severely injure the switchin. It doesn't need to boost to hit pretty hard. It has base 165 attack and 120/80 BP STABs. Ask Mega Scizor how that Bullet Punch works out for him. He only has 150 base attack, and Bullet Punch only has 60 BP with Technician pre-STAB yet it still OHKOs stuff. I don't have time to do calcs for the rest of your post, but some stuff is simply bad. Pokemon like Swellow, Mega Houndoom (Fire--you have both Charizard Megas who are better on Fire 99% of the time), Qwilfish, Granbull, Cacturne, Gourgeist (Grass), Amoonguss, Chesnaught, Garbodor, Flygon, Sandslash, Golem, Dugtrio, Yanmega/Noivern/Hawlucha/Fletchinder/Salamence/Crobat/Swellow/Mega Aerodactyl/Tornadus (all for Flying), Doublade (Ghost--they have Aegi, nobody uses Doublade), Druddigon, Zygarde, Spiritomb, Accelgor, Staryu (like wtf, I seriously hope you meant Starmie lol), Starmie (even if you did it is still pretty bad), Cresselia, Gothitelle, Bronzong, Choiced Cobalion, and Aromatisse all have less than 10% usage on their types, and most have under 5%. Most competitive teams won't use them, so mentioning them as counters is almost asking for a ban. Also, Mega Lopunny is illegal on Fighting teams. Another thing: pretty much everything you listed can only revenge kill. If nothing can counter it it is pretty borked (there were Pokemon on Bug/Grass/Fighting who could take one hit and revenge kill Talonflame, yet it had next to no outright counters, so it was banned). You also listed the fact that most things only have a chance to OHKO it when it is at -1, and even then some of them can't kill it. In these cases, it can always switch out, and come back in to kill more stuff later after its teammates have softened up or killed threats, and be back at full health. Mega Gallade doesn't necessarily have to OHKO everything, it just has to be able to threaten the majority of a few types, or be able to come in and KO many Pokemon (which it can). There are some things Gallade should not and (used by a good player) will not ever come in on, or stay in on. The role of its teammates is to support it and eliminate or weaken threats such as opposing Scarfers, Pokemon who are bulky enough to take a hit/resist its moves, or who simply outspeed it (mostly other Megas). Then, Mega Gallade can come in on something that can't hurt it, set up and sweep the weakened team, which it does remarkably well. As well, some of your points were like "If Mega Gallade doesn't carry this coverage move, Pokemon X can wall it." That is basically saying that it's coverage is amazing. As you never know what moves it is running until it attacks (you may have a basic idea, but one of its coverage moves could have changed), you could end up with your counter dead because you didn't expect that. This also points out that it is broken. If it can slap on a coverage move and kill its counters, then it is probably broken. For example, it can run Thunder Punch to hit Azumarill, Gyarados and other bulky Water types harder while also hitting most Flying types for reasonable damage. Substitue foils the Pokemon who rely on status, and if they can't break the Sub first try, then Focus Punch says hi. Twice. A 150 BP STAB move is something most Pokemon do not want coming their way, especially coming off of 165 base attack. It 2HKOs Skarmory, BulkyRaptor, Mandibuzz, Mega Audino, and Rotom-Wash with unboosted Focus Punch, and it still has two other slots to run SD, another STAB, or more coverage. So, I think that not all of the Pokemon that you listed are A) Viable, B) Unable to be hit hard by a coverage move of choice, and C) Even able to always revenge kill (some can't even OHKO it at -1, and get killed back lol, saying stuff can murder it after a teammate has damaged it and died to it is like saying Pichu's Thundershock can kill Skarmory after previous damage lol, bit extreme [even if it is a 3HKO with Specs on though rof] but seriously if you need to sack 1 or 2 Pokemon to revenge kill it, it is likely broken or you let it set up for free, which is your fault). Mega Gallade will almost always get AT LEAST 1 or 2 kills if it is used well, and can even come in and nail stuff, playing recklessly midgame on Psychic, as Healing Wish Latias, Jirachi, or Gardevoir are there for it. Other than the fact that he mentioned flinchax (silly Nani) I agree with Articuno I that Nani Man's post is still accurate, and Mega Gallade is broken. Needs to be banned for sure on Psychic imo, but Fighting I'm not sure about, as they can't remove status/Heal it, and don't have bona fide walls for it to switch too when it is forced out. Right now I'm leaning towards ban as it is relatively self-supportive and can sweep effectively late game once faster Pokemon are gone.

 

[Tyke]

In other news;

Thoughts on where Volcanion will land in viability?

I like Scarf Volcanion for Fire teams as a check for Mega-Diancie and other ground/rock types. It has the bulk to live SE attacks from faster scarfes as well.

 

[Narset]

In other news;

Thoughts on where Volcanion will land in viability?

I like Scarf Volcanion for Fire teams as a check for Mega-Diancie and other ground/rock types. It has the bulk to live SE attacks from faster scarfes as well.

Isn't it obvious? Over nine thousand.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

In other news;

Thoughts on where Volcanion will land in viability?

I like Scarf Volcanion for Fire teams as a check for Mega-Diancie and other ground/rock types. It has the bulk to live SE attacks from faster scarfes as well.

I personally thought it would make a great Assault Vest user, as it has great 130 Special Attack, and above average bulk. 80/120/90 is great, especially when the SpD is boosted by Assault Vest. With good STABs in Steam Eruption and Fire Blast, as well as good coverage in Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Focus Blast, Hidden Power (Ice probably, for Lati@s, Garchomp, and other Dragons), and Sludge Bomb/Wave (Sludge Bomb gives it 2 moves with a 30% chance to inflict harmful status) it will be a decent Scarf or Specs user as well. It even gets Solarbeam, so it can partner well with Mega Zard Y/Ninetales on Fire to nail Water types. It also has a 110 Attack stat, so physical or mixed sets may be viable. It has access to moves such as Flare Blitz, Flame Charge (attack that gives a Scarf!!!), Earthquake, Superpower, Frustration/Return, and Stone Edge. No physical Water STAB though, so physical sets will probably be rare. I could see Superpower for Chansey though, or even mixed sets, like Steam Eruption/Fire Blast or Overheat/2 of Stone Edge, Superpower, and Earthquake with Scarf or Assault Vest. With Neutralities to Grass and Water (Fire finally has something good neutral to Water!!!) it will probably be a mainstay on both of its types. It is kinda slow even with Scarf, but it could use an EV spread to outspeed the 115 speed tier, and hit Raikou, Lati@s, Mega Lati@s, Thundurus, Mega Absol, Mega Houndoom, Mega Metagross, Ambipom/Cincinno, Mega Diancie, Mega Pinsir, Infernape, Froslass, and Serperior hard with its STABs or coverage. Sadly, it needs a positive speed nature to do this, as it needs minimum 241 points to outspeed full speed base 115s with Scarf, and with max EVs and a neutral nature, it only hits 239. It will still be a great Pokemon as it has good bulk, awesome Special Attack, and decent attack as well as a couple of handy resistances for its types. Probably at least A Rank for both types, and maybe even S Rank. Is it released now?

 

[Gerard]

Stuff

What are you supposed to switch into Terrakion? All the normal pokemon die just as easily to him. It's normal and since Normal doesn't have yet a Normal/Ghost type to work with then it's going to have to sac something once a fighting type comes in. It's as simple as that. SD Terrakion destroys normal the exact same way and can only be revenged killed too.

My post was that Gallade will have trouble tryng to find an oppenning where to sweep against most teams because his low 80 speed before megavolving which will make it easy for teams to revenge. Just like Electric needs to paralyze Charizard-X in order to deal with it, some teams have to keep the pressure and force out Gallade or Revenge him. It's just like how you were against any high tier threat, you need to keep it weakened, and never lose your checks, in order for it not to sweep your team.

 

[Narset]

What are you supposed to switch into Terrakion? All the normal pokemon die just as easily to him. It's normal and since Normal doesn't have yet a Normal/Ghost type to work with then it's going to have to sac something once a fighting type comes in. It's as simple as that. SD Terrakion destroys normal the exact same way and can only be revenged killed too.

My post was that Gallade will have trouble tryng to find an oppenning where to sweep against most teams because his low 80 speed before megavolving which will make it easy for teams to revenge. Just like Electric needs to paralyze Charizard-X in order to deal with it, some teams have to keep the pressure and force out Gallade or Revenge him. It's just like how you were against any high tier threat, you need to keep it weakened, and never lose your checks, in order for it not to sweep your team.

Doth thou not use bulkraptor? Scarf Terrakion actually has trouble against it when played well.

 

[Anttya]

What are you supposed to switch into Terrakion? All the normal pokemon die just as easily to him. It's normal and since Normal doesn't have yet a Normal/Ghost type to work with then it's going to have to sac something once a fighting type comes in. It's as simple as that. SD Terrakion destroys normal the exact same way and can only be revenged killed too.

My post was that Gallade will have trouble tryng to find an oppenning where to sweep against most teams because his low 80 speed before megavolving which will make it easy for teams to revenge. Just like Electric needs to paralyze Charizard-X in order to deal with it, some teams have to keep the pressure and force out Gallade or Revenge him. It's just like how you were against any high tier threat, you need to keep it weakened, and never lose your checks, in order for it not to sweep your team.

Just a small thing about Terrakion. They generally run a scarf to beat Flying and Bug. (choicescarf 68.7% focussash 19.5% choiceband 5.5% lifeorb 2.7% leftovers 1.1% according to the Monotype Stats, and only 3.2% run Swords Dance.)

Never underestimate a good Psychic user. U-turn users such as Victini will easily lure in Heatrans, Slowbros, and Porygon2s to take advantage of. Fighting can just sack the least useful thing to get a safe switch in. Furthermore, Psychic has Gardevoir who acts as a Healing Wisher, and a Mega-Sableye counter at the same time.

Edit: I personally don't have too much trouble against generic Fighting since as Narset said, Bulkyraptor walls everything except Keldeo

 

[Tyke]

LOLGODDANGIT I TOLD THIS THING TO STOP SAVING THAT LINE, I DIDN'T WANT TO POST IT!!!

Sorry, I've just deleted that line from here, like, five times and it wouldn't go away. I thought it was gone. ;~; I'm sowwwy.

i'm still confused what line you were referring too rof.

 

[Tyke]

Btw, when are we re-banning Genesect?

 

[Gerard]

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 257-304 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 129-153 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

BulkyRaptor can only switch in if SR is off the field and can't do anything against SD Terrakion (SubSD is good against Flying and Bug too). Versatility doesn't just apply to things you want gone and Terrakion has as many dangerous sets as Gallade.

 

[DoW]

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 257-304 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 129-153 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

BulkyRaptor can only switch in if SR is off the field and can't do anything against SD Terrakion (SubSD is good against Flying and Bug too). Versatility doesn't just apply to things you want gone and Terrakion has as many dangerous sets as Gallade.

Bulkraptor beats all notable rocks setters on fighting assuming it predicts around taunt:
-1 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 102-120 (27.2 - 32%) -- 42.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, while rocks are almost always calculated in OU games, they can be somewhat harder to keep up in monotype. For example if we assumed rocks were always up, Flying would be one of the worst type (like it was in gen 5) rather than one of the best (as it is now). There are probably tens of pokemon that are unbeatable if we assume that rocks are always up, so because of that in monotype I generally presume they aren't unless I have a very good reason for them to be up.