Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Lilymoding]

LO Low Kick is a waste of your Greninja in Monotype. You take LO + Iron Barbs damage against Ferrothorn (which is one of the main things you would run Low Kick for), plus all the hazard damage from Steel teams. .

Low Kick isn't necessarily a waste. It OHKOs TTar who would usually live a Hydro Pump, it does 2HKO Ferrothorn, which would in most cases force a switch or just get rid of a major wall, 3HKOs Chansey, meaning it can switch out on the softboiled and set up with Keldeo/Go into Sableye and taunt, or Cause massive damage on a wish passing Chansey and proceed to go into sab/Keldeo, helps obliterate almost the complete ice type, Etc. The main point is, no matter how much you think "Why would he run Low kick it's a waste", it is still a very viable move that you don't know if it has or not.

212+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 135-164 (33.6 - 40.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 185-218 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

52 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lanturn: 263-309 (57.9 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering most Water teams run specially defensive Lanturn, it can't switch into a Gunk shot, but if you ARe running defensive:
200 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lanturn: 174-205 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Basically massive damage, and after Stealth Rock...
(Grass knot on a spdef Lanturn Switch)
26.4(min damage grass knot does to a spdef lanturn)+57.9+around 12... That's a clean 96.3%. And that's using min damages only.
(Gunk Shot on a Def Lanturn switch)
37.8(min Gunk shot against max Def Lanturn)+38.3+12=88.1. That's a lot of damage for only being max damage rolls both times. But the max defense set has more of a chance of living, but again it's not that common from what I've seen. Most electric types that could threaten you like Galvantula and Thundurus carry Grass Knot or Giga Drain, so Lanturn needs to be able to take that.

However you got me on Tentacruel, I didn't take that into account.

Also Hydro Pump is NOT needed on a water team nor is Dark Pulse on a dark team. It may be vice versa, but not always. I.e like you stated sharpedo can help with Psychic. Sub mega gyar can absolutely tear through Psychic. Dark Pulse is NOT a necessity. Ice beam is almost standard, that's right, so you can almost always expect that. Keyword almost. Greninja has so many viable moves that it may not even carry Ice Beam, you don't know for sure. It isn't like Gengar, where there are a group of viable moves but you almost always run the same thing, Greninja can literally do whatever it wants, it can fill any role it needs to, whether it be spikes lead, scarf sweeper, LO Late game sweeper, or an anti lead with Taunt. As common as things may be, it's not as safe of an assumption as debating Physical Keldeo v special is. There are multiple sets that are viable, which you can't really know until you scouted out what it has.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

LO Low Kick is a waste of your Greninja in Monotype. You take LO + Iron Barbs damage against Ferrothorn (which is one of the main things you would run Low Kick for), plus all the hazard damage from Steel teams. Empoleon is the other thing to run Low Kick for, and neither Dark, nor Water, are threatened by it. LO Low Kick is also worthless vs Chansey/Porygon2 as it does the same amount of damage as Gunk Shot, costs you a coverage move for the rest of the metagame, and the opponent can just laugh as they click recover/soft boil. Hydro Pump hits Heatran harder. Ice Beam+Hydro Pump beats Rock w/o the need for Low Kick.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (31.3 - 37.6%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO

A water core?
Lanturn eats Grass Knot up and will para if it uses Gunk Shot. Tentacruel tanks Grass Knot and Gunk shot too. Same for Empoleon. All can retaliate via status or significant damage.

212+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 135-164 (33.6 - 40.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 185-218 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
212+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 144 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 99-117 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Klefki forces Greninja out. Period. Unless they are absolutely forced to, no one is going to let it para Greninja. Klefki can then just set another layer of Spikes or use Reflect/Light Screen. Advantage goes to the Steel or Fairy Team unless you catch it with Hydro Pump on the switch. That probably won't happen b/c clicking Hydro Pump over Gunk Shot is a good way to die to almost every other Fairy in the metagame.

Your hypothetical set is Grass Knot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot. Psychic teams will love you (hope you run Sharpedo if its a Water team), Steel can just let the Ferro take the 2nd Low Kick and watch as Greninja takes half its own HP away (more if rocky helmet). Normal teams have no trouble with that set. Bug is already a bad matchup for Greninja w/o Rock Slide. Fighting just clicks Mach Punch. The only type from the top 7 in usage you threaten is Flying, which will be prepared to face Greninja.



In OU, I completely agree with you, but identifying the set really isn't so hard in Monotype. Sure, it gets all those awesome moves, but most of the LO Greninja you encounter will have the 3 standard moves of Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump (for Water/Dark teams respectively), Gunk Shot and Ice Beam because that is what helps vs. the most used types. That leaves 1 move for coverage, which really isn't so bad, or different from other offensive threats. On Water teams you should expect it to be Extrasensory b/c of m-Venusaur. On Dark, Grass Knot b/c it struggles with Water teams. If you send in your wall and it gets bopped by something else then just look at the rest of the team and figure out what of the 4 most common moves they can afford to leave off.

Choiced sets are a different story. If you want to run Banded Low Kick, that can work, but you're then choice locked and all of the awesome coverage that Greninja gets goes out the window. Same for scarf Greninja, which is one of the best cleaners in the meta, but you miss out on what makes Greninja so threatening throughout a match.

Heya man and sorry to burst your bubble but there are a few things that I must pick on from your post. To start off..you act as if low kick is the only thing that greninja has to hit ferro..it's not, I being a bug user see hp fire on greninja it's insane and that can destroy ferros.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 333-395 (94.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 317-380 (90 - 107.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I've never seen fully special d ferro once but if you want here's another calc.

212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 270-328 (76.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 286-343 (81.2 - 97.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also one thing about the water cores, lanturn is a check and your very own calc proves that. Gunk shot can 2hko with no rocks needed and the 30% poison can just make life easier. Also where did you get the evs for tentacruel, most i've seen run physically defensive and the calcs don't even have any ev spread anywhere near that. I even asked water users what they would run and it's not a spread like that. Anyways here is your all amazing tentacruel tanking the not so uber greninja in a norm spread.

212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 242-283 (67.7 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Just so you know, unless you used like a water/ice attack on that mono water the tentacruel is not going to be living that hit.
Also one last poke you mentioned but never showed a calc for was empoleon.

44 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 250-296 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
44 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 174-211 (46.9 - 56.8%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So yeah that all amazing water core you listed just to show how greninja isn't ban-worthy didn't include 1 counter, great counter argument. Now onto the rest of the post. Klefki DOES force greninja out but on the other side of the coin you need to realize something, first off klefki can only switch in on like..one move. Also Greninja is a late game sweeper, this means it's not supposed to stay in on pokes with like 100% health that can guaranteed paralyze it. Greninja wrecks fairy not because once that dual screen lead dies there are no checks/counters unless you're running like granbull or something.

One last thing but that "hypothetical" set has 10 other viable moves that can be put on or taken off, if someone has trouble with psy than maybe they would run dark pulse wouldn't you say? Overall if anything i'll say the hypothetical set fits the team you have in mind but not everyone else's and if anything i'll say this is why it's getting banned. Overall man you gotta think of all the other greninja's out there because the amount of sets it can run are endless.

Overall I say it deserves the ban

 

[scpinion]

Heya man and sorry to burst your bubble but there are a few things that I must pick on from your post. To start off..you act as if low kick is the only thing that greninja has to hit ferro..it's not, I being a bug user see hp fire on greninja it's insane and that can destroy ferros.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 333-395 (94.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 317-380 (90 - 107.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I've never seen fully special d ferro once but if you want here's another calc.

212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 270-328 (76.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 286-343 (81.2 - 97.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also one thing about the water cores, lanturn is a check and your very own calc proves that. Gunk shot can 2hko with no rocks needed and the 30% poison can just make life easier. Also where did you get the evs for tentacruel, most i've seen run physically defensive and the calcs don't even have any ev spread anywhere near that. I even asked water users what they would run and it's not a spread like that. Anyways here is your all amazing tentacruel tanking the not so uber greninja in a norm spread.

212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 242-283 (67.7 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Just so you know, unless you used like a water/ice attack on that mono water the tentacruel is not going to be living that hit.
Also one last poke you mentioned but never showed a calc for was empoleon.

44 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 250-296 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
44 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 174-211 (46.9 - 56.8%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So yeah that all amazing water core you listed just to show how greninja isn't ban-worthy didn't include 1 counter, great counter argument. Now onto the rest of the post. Klefki DOES force greninja out but on the other side of the coin you need to realize something, first off klefki can only switch in on like..one move. Also Greninja is a late game sweeper, this means it's not supposed to stay in on pokes with like 100% health that can guaranteed paralyze it. Greninja wrecks fairy not because once that dual screen lead dies there are no checks/counters unless you're running like granbull or something.

One last thing but that "hypothetical" set has 10 other viable moves that can be put on or taken off, if someone has trouble with psy than maybe they would run dark pulse wouldn't you say? Overall if anything i'll say the hypothetical set fits the team you have in mind but not everyone else's and if anything i'll say this is why it's getting banned. Overall man you gotta think of all the other greninja's out there because the amount of sets it can run are endless.

Overall I say it deserves the ban

You've never seen that spread in the calc or team builder b/c that is designed for Mono-Water. It is a Sp. Def wall that takes Grass attacks, so 252+ in Sp. Def. 108 Speed ev's gets the jump on Jolly Breloom so it gets its sash broken before putting you to sleep or KO'ing with Bullet Seed. The rest into HP leaves it plenty bulky enough to take Grass attacks from a large portion of the meta. I didn't put an AV on there when I calc'd, but that is quite common as well.

If Greninja is carrying Grass Knot and Extrasensory then it probably doesn't have Gunk Shot (Ice Beam+Hydro Pump would hit the whole meta for neutral damage). In your Tentacruel example, Lanturn, Azu, Sharpedo, Scarf Keldeo, Manaphy, etc. will all threaten it or will not be KO'd without some significant damage. One switch-in vs. a semi-unexpected attack and you already know multiple ways to beat it, also it has taken 20% + hazards.

The other side of this is if it is running some funky set that happens to beat your team, it will lose to 2-3 others b/c it is not viable against a large part of the metagame.

 

[bubblymaika]

I would like to know where I said Gyro Ball in that post. I am pretty sure I never mentioned it once, as I run Power Whip/Leech Seed/Protect/Knock Off on my Ferrothorn. Actually, you yourself said in your response to AFD that greninja would be greeted with gyro after an ice beam. Either way, it is a common move on ferrothorn as a whole, so of course I would bring it up. Not everyone runs the same set as you do. Mostly I'll be spamming Leech Seed/Protect, with Power Whip when I want to hit hard and Knock Off to remove items. If Mega Sableye comes in without being seeded, then I will Protect (from the Will-o-Wisp while it Mega evolves and loses Prankster) , then Power Whip (does 25-30%), then switch to Mega Venusaur to poison it via Sludge Bomb, then Giga Drain stall, Synthesising when necessary. Both Sap Sipper Azumarill and Ludicolo are rekt by Sludge Bomb, so I asked you not to mention them <.< I honestly wonder if you misread what I posted or are intentionally nitpicking here. The leech seed switchins were for FERROTHORN, not venu. There is absolutely no way I would switch those two in when Sludge Bomb is almost always a threat. You've rather extravagant scenarios planned out here as well. BTW on the second turn when you powerwhip, what makes you think the sable player won't try to burn you again? and Recover has more PP than Synthesis, plus sable can burn venu as well and set up calm minds when it can. It is entirely possible that this plan can backfire and that Sable ends up getting the set up it needs to sweep.
I do have something to ask though: If Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn can outstall Greninja and consistently force it out, then why do we keep talking about what the opponent will send in next? If Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn can consistently wall everything Greninja tries, and I usually beat it, how is that broken? Except, they technically can't force it out consistently (HP fire and extrasense remember? Also low kick, though that's not as common in mono) That's the frightening part about greninja, until you see the other three moves it currently has (because let's be honest here, Icebeam's mandetory at this point), you have no idea what it's carrying. Your only hints are its teammates, and even then you would be dangerously wrong (THIS ALSO APPLIES TO A CERTAIN BUG THAT SHOULD NOT BE HERE but that's a rant for another time...)
Another point is that even if Greninja beats your mono, 4mss means it will struggle against another. I admit, all falls down's moves hit a majority of the metagame, but they can't nail everything. And, Greninja rarely gets OHKOs, as even though it gets STAB on everything, it only has base 103 SpA and base 95 Atk. It needs walls to be weakened considerably before it can sweep, which is different from something like Mega Metagross, who can occasionally sweep from right off the bat. If you can keep your walls at reasonable health and they have reliable recovery, Greninja will struggle with them, as it usually only does around 50% to most walls. Here's the thing about greninja, IT CHOOSES ITS WALLS. Greninja is generally the last thing slapped onto a team and its moveset is usually determined by whatever the rest of the team struggles with. Got a water team that struggles with Venu or a dark team that hates fighting types? Extrasensory. Are Fairies a pain for most of the team to handle? Gunk Shot. Gastrodon being a bitch? Knot. I could go on and on, but the point's been made. It's definitely gonna get walled by shit, but what it gets walled by is generally something that the rest of the team doesn't struggle with too much or handles fairly easily/well.
I thought I said Earth Power and Sludge Wave, I know Swampert resists poison, just a typo.
GutsCross has 18.5% usage on Bug and 33.5% usage on Fighting. Now that I was unaware of, good to know. Conkeldurr can 3HKO Mega Sableye after Rocks damage, which Fighting gets up really easily, and it is also an annoyance, as it forces Mega Sableye to Recover more often. And then there is freeze hax, which becomes statistically more likely the longer these two stay in on each other. I know, I said this. I wouldn't call relying on freezehax very healthy though. Also, as soon as MegaEye is dead or switched out, it gets recovery again through a +1 (Guts) STAB Drain Punch. I said Toxic because I don't run Heat Wave anymore, Again, not everyone runs the same sets that you do. so it really depends on how healthy my other walls are. You're running flying, unless you have an articuno, I doubt your other walls are going to take an icebeam well. Either way toxic damage only racks up if ninja stays in and if you do bring said wall out, odds are ninja's gonna switch out if it can't touch it, meaning the toxic damage resets. Nice strat. If they are healthy, I Toxic, otherwise I Discharge for the chip damage. Heat Wave by all means if you have it though. If Togekiss threatens Greninja out, again, how is that bad :I Because greninja still remains healthy and against flying, it can sweep the entire team if given the opportunity.
I think you may have forgot that Protean actually changes your type, and Flare Blitz is a guaranteed OHKO after everything Greninja uses except Hydro Pump: I know because I already said this. Nice job reposting it, though.
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 198-234 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO if Hydro Pump, this does more than Flare Blitz
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 148-175 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO it still does a lot, even if Ninja does Hydro, and it only gives Greninja 4 other turns max
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 297-351 (104.2 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO if anything but Hydro Pump, or Ice Beam (which is double this lol)
I'm not sure why we got around the same numbers when you used 252+ though... Probably because I kept the water typing in my calcs, not sure. I was very tired when I made that post, so it's possible I could have made some errors; If so, my apologies. Dragon Claw is a guaranteed OHKO after Rocks if full attack, and Flare Blitz does 70-80%, killing it after Rocks and LO recoil most of the time (on Ninja after Hydro Pump). I honestly don't know why everyone uses Brave Bird. Skarmory's main role is to take every physical Rock and Ice move. Why not threaten these types back, instead of running a move that breaks one of its main advantages (Sturdy)? But whatever, I said it cuz that's what I run. Repeat after me: not everyone runs what you run. This is especially crucial to remember when discussing suspects
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 220-259 (66 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It still tanks one, and attacks back.
8 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 150-177 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Shortening Greninja's life span, if it takes 2 rounds of LO recoil, hazard damage, and that ^ Hell, it could be at like 6% right now if you got a high roll. Hydro Pump also doesn't OHKO it.

It tanks one yes, but sturdy is broken and it takes recoil from the brave bird to boot. And as your calcs just proved, Ninja can take a BB as well. In this situation it's save skarm from death or sac it (and sacking skarm could easily ruin up your game)

Landorus-Incarnate, not Scarfed, I don't need it to be. It's job is to clean up after Togekiss, Zapdos, and Thundurus-Incarnate have Paralyzed everything. Implying that said greninja player will let it get paralyzed. Also both types have ways to absorb/deflect said paralysis and have access to clerics in the event that ninja does get paralyzed.
Of course, scpinion made a post before this, that both sniped a couple of my points, and was better :I icrievrytim :( Anyway, I agree with him

Comments in blue.

With all that being said, I'm still unsure about Greninja on water. I do however believe it to be broken on dark with Mega Sableye. If mega sable was out of the picture, I would be perfectly fine with frogger staying on dark, as it no longer has the wicked backup that Gollum provides. Kinda noticed I ended up drifting off in these responses and ended up talking about Mega Gollum a bit more than I should have, so I might as well say that Gollum's mega forme should probably get out of dark monotype.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

You've never seen that spread in the calc or team builder b/c that is designed for Mono-Water. It is a Sp. Def wall that takes Grass attacks, so 252+ in Sp. Def. 108 Speed ev's gets the jump on Jolly Breloom so it gets its sash broken before putting you to sleep or KO'ing with Bullet Seed. The rest into HP leaves it plenty bulky enough to take Grass attacks from a large portion of the meta. I didn't put an AV on there when I calc'd, but that is quite common as well.

If Greninja is carrying Grass Knot and Extrasensory then it probably doesn't have Gunk Shot (Ice Beam+Hydro Pump would hit the whole meta for neutral damage). In your Tentacruel example, Lanturn, Azu, Sharpedo, Scarf Keldeo, Manaphy, etc. will all threaten it or will not be KO'd without some significant damage. One switch-in vs. a semi-unexpected attack and you already know multiple ways to beat it, also it has taken 20% + hazards.

The other side of this is if it is running some funky set that happens to beat your team, it will lose to 2-3 others b/c it is not viable against a large part of the metagame.

Thanks for telling me but one of the points I was trying to make is that if you have trouble with a core you can easily run a set that would ruin it, in the case with the mono water nobody may run the given moves I used but at the same time not all greninja users have trouble with mono water. If someone wanted to beat mono normal with greninja they could easily run a physically based mix with max attack low kick which can 2hko max hp/defense chansey after rocks. In the end a user could be running the most messed up moveset simply made to beat monowater cores but you might not realize this until you already lost 1-2 crucial pokes to the core. This is why greninja is getting banned, if mono steel is the one type that troubles your team you could run moves simply to beat cores and in the end it could be impossible for them to win.

One thing you should know is that greninja isn't the only example of people trying to prepare for a specific type. For example bulky volcarona on bug commonly have fiery dance/hp ground and on offensive fiery dance/hp ground/giga drain. The coverage may be better in the long run if you have bug buzz lets say, however; people don't run bug buzz to make it easier to beat mono steel and fire. The reason why is that the rest of your team can beat the given types that wall volc, just like with greninja being made to destroy cores against specific types and having to rely on the rest of the team when it's absolutely walled.

 

[scpinion]

Thanks for telling me but one of the points I was trying to make is that if you have trouble with a core you can easily run a set that would ruin it, in the case with the mono water nobody may run the given moves I used but at the same time not all greninja users have trouble with mono water. If someone wanted to beat mono normal with greninja they could easily run a physically based mix with max attack low kick which can 2hko max hp/defense chansey after rocks. In the end a user could be running the most messed up moveset simply made to beat monowater cores but you might not realize this until you already lost 1-2 crucial pokes to the core. This is why greninja is getting banned, if mono steel is the one type that troubles your team you could run moves simply to beat cores and in the end it could be impossible for them to win.

One thing you should know is that greninja isn't the only example of people trying to prepare for a specific type. For example bulky volcarona on bug commonly have fiery dance/hp ground and on offensive fiery dance/hp ground/giga drain. The coverage may be better in the long run if you have bug buzz lets say, however; people don't run bug buzz to make it easier to beat mono steel and fire. The reason why is that the rest of your team can beat the given types that wall volc, just like with greninja being made to destroy cores against specific types and having to rely on the rest of the team when it's absolutely walled.

I completely agree with your points! That is exactly why it shouldn't be banned.

There are 18 different types you will play against in Monotype. If you design your Greninja to beat a couple of them, expecting the rest of your team to handle the others, then there is nothing broken about that. If it works, that's good team-building in my book. I guarantee all the top players in our metagame have done, and are currently doing, that with almost every type they use.

I'm by no means one of the top players, but I do that exact thing with my current Water team. I run U-turn, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam and Gunk Shot on Greninja because I'm weak to Psychic. I'm walled by almost every Steel type, but I've picked teammates that are capable of handling that type. I'm walled by the defensive cores in Dark, Water and Normal too. I threaten Flying and I beat Psychic though. The point is there is not a Greninja set that just decimates the metagame. Every single one has a weakness. Without strong team-building and play on your part, you will be beaten.

The example Pokemon that fall into this category of bans were Mega-Mence, Mega-Bro, Mega-Mawile and (possibly) Mega-Sableye. In many cases, you just have to send those things in and start setting up after you bait and kill a single Pokemon. Winning games was/is mindless because clicking Dragon Dance or Calm Mind against most of the metagame won/wins you the game.

Greninja is nothing like those Pokemon. It doesn't tank hits. It often needs more than one Pokemon on the opposing team removed for it to sweep. It also needs more than just a bit of hazard damage to sweep, even with the optimal set.

 

[DoW]

It's 1am but what the heck
To expand on scp's point, I think there's an important distinction to draw between a very good player using a pokemon to dominate a matchup and mindlessly clicking the "win" button just by sending it out. Greninja may be very strong in certain instances, perhaps at times even as strong against certain types as Talon was against Bug, Grass and Fighting, but with Talon it was a simple case of keep rocks of the field, come in safely, click "Brave Bird". And given both fire and flying were likely to have the best hazard control they could get, this meant it could practically be stuck on any team and act as a powerful revenge killer in any matchup, as well as completely annihilating these teams.
Similarly, Kyurem-W and Skymin may occasionally have required a prediction, but for the most part there was a simple option of "spam ice beam vs. that ground team" or "spam air slash against that fighting team", which would be very unlikely to lead to a bad situation. And while they didn't have amazing team support, there was enough there that they could do a whole load of work in almost any matchup, without a whole load of thought going into it.

Greninja, however, most certainly requires skill to be used well. Once it's in, it can deal some damage, sure. But it doesn't have Kyu-W's bulk, and the LO recoil (for the majority of greninjas) plus hazards means that you have to be careful choosing when to bring it in, especially on a type like water where hazard control isn't a particularly high priority. Equally, there isn't one simple default moveset you go with that will be its best moveset against almost any matchup. If you don't plan it carefully it could be walled by any number of things making it near useless in those matchups. Dark and Water can provide team support, but it still needs prediction not to be squandered. It can be very tough on one or two types, or reasonably powerful against a wide range, but this all requires careful thought and, moreover, can be predicted from how it comes in allowing for the opponent to play around it.

And even if you do get something like Ice beam / Hydro Pump / Grass Knot Greninja vs. ground, it's still not over. Gastrodon walls hydro pump and ice beam. Scarf Garchomp checks it coming in on grass knot, whether LO or scarf ninja, as I showed a while ago. It takes careful predicting, sure. It may not be easy to beat more than once, it's true. But even in that worst-case scenario, it's by no means an insta-win. If the ground player plays particularly well, and takes advantage of any momentum they can get over the greninja user, then the matchup is down to skill at least to some degree. It's playable, despite not being even. And after all, this is what Nani has said we are looking for in the meta: All types being playable.

I'm not entirely persuaded either way, but from the way people have been arguing there seems to be somewhat stronger argument towards one side here. Because of that, I'm going to say don't ban greninja.

 

[pokecole]

I recover health via Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Giga Drain, so yes, I am almost always at 100%. Mega Sableye isn't Mega evolved automatically, so it switches in to Leech Seed, and I laugh my ass off. Or, if I'm forced to Synthesis (let's say Ice Beam got a crit), then I use Sludge Bomb until it is poisoned (30% chance, should only take 4ish turns max). Then I stall. Celebi also has screens, so I can set them up whenever I want, or I can bring in Serperior to set up via Leaf Storm faster than it can set up via Calm Mind.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 253-300 (83.2 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, I switch in when it Calm Minds, then I attack, while it Calm Minds, then I attack, and have a decent chance to have killed it by now. Or, now I'm at +4 and nothing wants to switch in. Don't say it can burn me, cuz I have Heal Bell Celebi waiting in the back to come in, set screens, and cure it so it can come back and wreck later if need be.. And I've told you, if Mega Venusaur does get weakened, I go to Ferrothorn, Leech Seed, then switch to Mega Venusaur, so it recovers enough health to live by and can Synthesis. Or bring it in on something weak and recover health then. Hell, I can even Giga Drain, Water is weak to it, and Dark is neutral to it. Btw, I chose grass for a few reasons.
1.) It's considered a weak type
2.) It is weak to HP Fire/Ice Beam/Gunk Shot/Extrasensory (some of Greninja's main moves)
3.) It's what I have been using a lot recently (outside of the core challenges)

Not much walls Mega Venusaur, except Magic Bounce users as its role is to Leech Seed stall everything threatening on the other team. Even then, it can poison Mega Sableye, Espeon, Xatu (lol), and Mega Absol (who uses this anymore, now that Dark has MegaEye?), and Mega Diancie is weak to Giga Drain and can't really hurt me. Yeah, a good Greninja user will switch out, but then Aegislash goes ham on your team with Sacred Sword for Dark and Empoleon, Shadow Ball for Mega Sableye, Slowbro, and Alomomola (and most of Water is hurt by it for that matter), and Shadow Sneak for priority.

Alright, I'd just like point out some things.
Grass isn't a weak type. Ferrothorn + Mega Venusaur is a scary core for most types. Mega venusaur is one of, if not the, best wall in the game.
You are pointing out a type that is super effective against greninja and acting like it's crazy that it walls it. "Guys, grass can wall/beat greninja!" "Woah, I heard rock can beat talonflame also!". It's just silly.
Grass also has just gained leaf storm contrary serperior and gotten an out to mega sableye, which may be their only reliable one.

Not all types have things that can switch in on greninja. In fact, a lot of types don't. Psychic and flying don't have a swap in to ice beam/gunk shot unless they're running the occasional articuno, which isn't that good imo but w/e. It has a niche.

Greninja creates problems for too many types and stresses dark or water vs. types they are SE against. It needs to go imo. More so on water than dark, but w/e.

 

[Lilymoding]

It's 1am but what the heck
Greninja may be very strong in certain instances, perhaps at times even as strong against certain types as Talon was against Bug, Grass and Fighting, but with Talon it was a simple case of keep rocks of the field, come in safely, click "Brave Bird". And given both fire and flying were likely to have the best hazard control they could get, this meant it could practically be stuck on any team and act as a powerful revenge killer in any matchup, as well as completely annihilating these teams.
Similarly, Kyurem-W and Skymin may occasionally have required a prediction, but for the most part there was a simple option of "spam ice beam vs. that ground team" or "spam air slash against that fighting team", which would be very unlikely to lead to a bad situation. And while they didn't have amazing team support, there was enough there that they could do a whole load of work in almost any matchup, without a whole load of thought going into it.

Greninja, however, most certainly requires skill to be used well. Once it's in, it can deal some damage, sure.

Okay first of all, this post is a nice post, and thanks for the insight ^^

Anyways let me get down to business: From what I can take from this, it's like the double edged sword of having 4MSS. While being unpredictable, it can sometimes leave you in a situation where you can't do anything to the opponent, and are left helpless, and I get that, I really do (This also brings up scpinion 's point about contrasting it to OU, which I guess I didn't understand fully before, but now I do). Unfortunately, I can't tell you the definite most common set for Greninja to compare it to other types because the Monotype stats page won't load for me (qq), but like I said previously, its a double-edged sword. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it can be made to decimate a type. I have heard of bug users complaining how hard it was to get past Hydro Pump/Rock Slide. That leaves you weak to other types, that is true, but harking back to Talonflame, what could it do against Rock types? Even Water could completely wall it(Rotom-W, Alomamola, Slowbro, Crocune, Lanturn), and that's one of the most common types in the meta. Other types that can wall it include, but are not limited to: Electric (Mega Ampharos says hi, Rotom-W again, Rotom-H, Lanturn, Zapdos), Fire (Heatran, Rotom-H, Torkoal), and Normal (Porygon2, Chansey, Def Raptor). However, because it was so good at absolutely maiming Bug Grass and Fighting, that ended up with a ban. I feel like the same applies to Greninja. Greninja, with its astounding movepool, can be made to completely ruin a set of types. Yes, this leaves it open to be almost useless against other types, but what is Talonflame going to do against rock? Electric? Any of the types I just listed? Talonflame was semi limited as well, but because it completely maimed the other types, that ended up in a ban. A Rock Slide/Hydro Pump/Low Kick/Taunt Greninja can decimate Ice, Steel, Fire, Bug, and Normal, but that leaves it open to other types, but I don't think that necessarily means it's not broken. Greninja takes it a step further, not being restricted like Talonflame was. Greninja can change it's moveset to counter another set of types. Now you check all of these other types, but you still can't hit certain ones well. I feel like that was apparent even with Skymin and Talonflame, two things clearly banned for being broken because they annihilated the types that they ere good against. Greninja does this as well, so I feel like it's kind of being in the same boat.

Oh and looking the dex... Talonflame had base 81 attack. Greninja has higher attack than Talonflame, and is able to change it's moveset. The only thing that Talonflame had going for it was priority Brave Bird being able to decimate Bug Grass and Fighting, but Greninja, while at a slightly lower standard, has this huge movepool where it can literally pick and choose what types it want's to hit and miss, and it can do it extraordinarily well.

So while yes, I do agree that Greninja can be left almost useless in some matches, I think the ability to hard check a variety of certain types at will is pushing the boundaries a little bit.

I still say suspect Greninja, But thanks Articuno I for the nice post :DDD

 

[Mystletainn]

If Skymin was banned because it was uncompetitive, why is Togekiss untouched when it does the exact same thing? Is it just the lower base speed? Just wondering.

 

[n64lord]

I talked about greninja during the last discussion. While greninja is insanely fast compared to most of the metagame, dark teams on the whole are not. Their full range of pokemon isn't usually explored, but that aside, they don't regularly run scarf on non-grenja pokemon (and most grenija don't run it according to usage) and all of the other dark pokemon to even crack 100 speed are kind of bad... Dark teams are even slower if you consider their defensive core. A base form gardevoir, or even speedcreep azumarill can reliably outspeed 4/6 of a dark team (sorry bisharp) while p0kemon with an average timid/jolly speed peak like charx and landorus HAVE to be dealt with defensively.

I still kind of stand by the other stuff in my last post as well.

You had me until this part.
Dark is actually one of the stiffest types when it comes to teambuilding. Although sets differ, both now and pre oras effectively always wanted ttar/mandi/sablye (mega now, used to be cherry picked) and if these three are on 100% of high dark teams, then greninja is added as a 4th mandatory man on at least 80% of those. Greninja is good for the reasons it is in OU, but if you look at dark pokemon above the very centralized 100 speed tier, you notice that other than greninja they all have some unavoidable tradeoffs. Some of them have awkward usage AND need a mega stone.

Dark teams are worth considering when team building and you can ladder with them, but they have several match ups that are hard to win even with inteligent play. As for the water is good without greninja arguement, what vs water matches do you see changing without greninja? Fairy? Dragon? how often does that come up these days? In fact I see water team's NOT using greniga potentially adding a couple of unpopular members that could make games vs low types even more lop sided.

I think a greninja ban would fail to diversify dark AND make water slightly weaker against steel/fairy/psychic at the cost of indirectly buffing water vs about 5 other types

No ban on Greninja

MegaSableye

is a hugely effective support mon just considering magic bounce, it's bulk, wisp+recover, even against teams with a counter to it, it can be kept in the back so that bisharp or greninja can freely attack instead of having to think about double switching when a wall comes out, because the wall will be useless imeediately. And sablye will add to that chip damage himself with 12.5 wisp, which has many uses even on special attackers (think of all those pokemon LO bisharp is just 2-3 hazards away from OHKO with sucker punch).
Calm Mind allows it to sweep a couple bad types, and makes losing your checks to him into a wincon for the dark team.

It has to switch out on a couple of fire pokemon(which are typically high usage for their own types), the strongest special attackers if they are already out during it's first boosts(IE landourus), almost any other calm minder or nasty plotter, not only viable ones, but also absolute shit like dazzling gleam espeon, repeated physical pressure (which is admittedly costly to most teams longterm outside of monsters like crawdaunt), and a couple limited but applicable methods (restalk,haze, acid spray, scald)

Luckily dark teams don't really like switching their other pokemon into many these things, and will just lose the rest of their defensive core due to not having enough free turns to use after absorbing the attack that only that team member can take.

Teams that have been weakened by dark's offensive pressure (not as in your face as on a fighting team, but still pretty reliable) can also be swept by calm mind.

The defensive support offered by ghost teams is not as useful, as the nature of a full on cm sweep has it against most of an opponent's team, with the lmitiation getting KOs on it's checks (jellicent and doublade aren't really forcing people to stay in on them and do little to other pokes, so they can continue using safe attacks with their special attackers and such to force you to switch, and then retreat without penalty)

If you decide to build a team without a dedicated check or use ceirtain types it can autosweep (or at least bring 3+ pokemon low in the case of say, generic steel) as well as provide an immediately free setup for it's offensive pokemon against most of their walls, tank attacks for the team, and whittle away at them before running away. Not to mention that a couple more types are only 1-2 KOs away from being vulnerable to a sweep from this thing, so they have to use parts of their teams more sparingly. Coincidently tyranitar, greninja, and bisharp are good at getting KOS

Easy Ban on Dark. Ban on ghost just because logical conclusion of the kyurem/shaymin decision. I like to be called brave or jelly for using ghost instead of cussed at for this thing anyway, and autowins and being able to tell everything the rest of your team has to do from team preview are still present.

Metagrossite makes people into slaves of matchmaking AND is almost always useful to an extent in all neutral matchups. Diff set's let you tailor to not needing "as much" anti-flying or water on other members of team which opens up using less... expected partners. Ban written all over his face.

Genesect

.... I usually use types that are weaker to E-speed (LO or band) than scarf, so I'm usually happy when I fight against it because most people will just be using the most versatile set. I still would favor a psychic team against a bug team as a general rule, but the new most common psychic teams in oras are weaker to bug than before. (Their is always victini, and pokemon that can tank a STAB attack and still get rocks up, as well as things like t-wave slowbro) Metametagross and the Hidden Power Lat@s that paranoid people use are worth mentioning also.

Flying could complain, but bug dosen't like that every flying that hasn't 6-0d with charizard jwill almost ceirtaintly just paras it with gyara/togekiss/thundy, or even surprise killed by honchkrow before just hamming on the rest of their team.

Dark shouldn't be able to deal with it's pressure fast enough due to swapping between volc/scizor or simply foddering non-sableye pokes when they have a chance to tank/status. So that's a kind of autowin, but you could do as much with beedrill or even scarf scizor due to aforementioned speed problem on dark.

Overall I'm neutral on him, but I'm kinda biased against bug and even at his best, he's not worth looking at before the above two megas.

 

[DoW]

Okay first of all, this post is a nice post, and thanks for the insight ^^

Anyways let me get down to business: From what I can take from this, it's like the double edged sword of having 4MSS. While being unpredictable, it can sometimes leave you in a situation where you can't do anything to the opponent, and are left helpless, and I get that, I really do (This also brings up scpinion 's point about contrasting it to OU, which I guess I didn't understand fully before, but now I do). Unfortunately, I can't tell you the definite most common set for Greninja to compare it to other types because the Monotype stats page won't load for me (qq), but like I said previously, its a double-edged sword. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it can be made to decimate a type. I have heard of bug users complaining how hard it was to get past Hydro Pump/Rock Slide. That leaves you weak to other types, that is true, but harking back to Talonflame, what could it do against Rock types? Even Water could completely wall it(Rotom-W, Alomamola, Slowbro, Crocune, Lanturn), and that's one of the most common types in the meta. Other types that can wall it include, but are not limited to: Electric (Mega Ampharos says hi, Rotom-W again, Rotom-H, Lanturn, Zapdos), Fire (Heatran, Rotom-H, Torkoal), and Normal (Porygon2, Chansey, Def Raptor). However, because it was so good at absolutely maiming Bug Grass and Fighting, that ended up with a ban. I feel like the same applies to Greninja. Greninja, with its astounding movepool, can be made to completely ruin a set of types. Yes, this leaves it open to be almost useless against other types, but what is Talonflame going to do against rock? Electric? Any of the types I just listed? Talonflame was semi limited as well, but because it completely maimed the other types, that ended up in a ban. A Rock Slide/Hydro Pump/Low Kick/Taunt Greninja can decimate Ice, Steel, Fire, Bug, and Normal, but that leaves it open to other types, but I don't think that necessarily means it's not broken. Greninja takes it a step further, not being restricted like Talonflame was. Greninja can change it's moveset to counter another set of types. Now you check all of these other types, but you still can't hit certain ones well. I feel like that was apparent even with Skymin and Talonflame, two things clearly banned for being broken because they annihilated the types that they ere good against. Greninja does this as well, so I feel like it's kind of being in the same boat.

Oh and looking the dex... Talonflame had base 81 attack. Greninja has higher attack than Talonflame, and is able to change it's moveset. The only thing that Talonflame had going for it was priority Brave Bird being able to decimate Bug Grass and Fighting, but Greninja, while at a slightly lower standard, has this huge movepool where it can literally pick and choose what types it want's to hit and miss, and it can do it extraordinarily well.

So while yes, I do agree that Greninja can be left almost useless in some matches, I think the ability to hard check a variety of certain types at will is pushing the boundaries a little bit.

I still say suspect Greninja, But thanks Articuno I for the nice post :DDD

Talon was always useful on Flying even in matchups where it couldn't hit particularly hard because, despite this, it had both banded U-turn and could revenge kill anything on ~35% even if it resisted. Let's take Electric for example. Talon comes in on a weakened Zapdos, where Flare Blitz doing around 50-60%. The electric user obviously wants to keep their wall alive, so predictably switches to M-Ampharos. Talon's U-turn not only gains momentum, allowing perhaps Landorus to come in for free, but also means that M-Amph (a pokemon without recovery) takes 25% from a move that's primarily momentum-grabbing. The fact that it can u-turn without giving up an important moveslot (Given it only really needs two moves), and that its u-turns hurt pretty much any team while being able to revenge kill even weakened resists, make it at least somewhat useful in any matchup. Greninja can perhaps find itself walled just as easily, however it has to give up a much-valued moveslot for U-turn and is, I would argue, weaker to residual damage given the hazard control flying and dark run, meaning it is somewhat eaiser to deal with even in situations where it is walled.

The main point, however, is that it is unthinking in its destruction of Bug, Grass and Fighting. Even Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Grass Knot Greninja has to think in order to beat Ground, where gastro tanks water/ice moves and scarfchomp checks it on grass knot. It also has to make sure not to come in on rocks only to find the opponent double switched to exca, meaning it takes sand damage as well then has to switch with nothing gained and momentum lost. Greninja isn't easy to beat if it's optimised to defeat your team, however it has to be optimised to beat your team in the first place and it'll still be beatable. These are two key differences between Greninja and Talonflame: It still requires thought to win even if it does slant the matchup a whole load, and it's not automatic that it destroys three types; again it requires thought as to what you wish to defeat to help the rest of the team and it's unlikely to be making bad matchups worse. More likely it'll be evening up matchups such as vs. flying and psychic as Scp's greninja does.

 

[n64lord]

If Skymin was banned because it was uncompetitive, why is Togekiss untouched when it does the exact same thing? Is it just the lower base speed? Just wondering.

A scarf skymin will outspeed and still be able to air slash almost any other scarfed pokemon, instead of just the unboosted game like togekiss doe. If the togekiss is a cleric, it has to take a hit as it paras people due to being only 80 speed, while skymin's alternate set is a wallbreaker that can still flinch most maxed timid/jolly pokemon if it really needs to flinch something. It's better coverage and having higher Special attack (Bigger hits mean you need less luck). Togekiss is weakened by electric types getting immunity to para 6th gen as well. You can't even switch in a special tank or assvest user on skymin reliably because of a potentional spdef drop from seedflare. Yes toge could gamble on flinching 14 times in a row, but shaymin can take that gamble OR take it out in 3 hits.

 

[Mystletainn]

So it is the lower SPA/SPE. Mmk then.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Comments in blue.

With all that being said, I'm still unsure about Greninja on water. I do however believe it to be broken on dark with Mega Sableye. If mega sable was out of the picture, I would be perfectly fine with frogger staying on dark, as it no longer has the wicked backup that Gollum provides. Kinda noticed I ended up drifting off in these responses and ended up talking about Mega Gollum a bit more than I should have, so I might as well say that Gollum's mega forme should probably get out of dark monotype.

Alright, first of all, I think we are getting a bit side tracked, as you are saying stuff like, "MegaEye or Azumarill or Ludicolo can switch in, what then?" and I think we need to refocus on Greninja (I will obviously have ways to play around these Pokemon). Yes, I agree Greninja chooses its walls, but as scpinion said, that is a disadvantage as well. Let's say, for example, that you hate Flying, Ground, Grass, and Fairy. So, you run Ice Beam/Gunk Shot/Rock Slide/Grass Knot to handle those types. Now, you are walled by every Steel type ever, in the history of Pokemon (although I've heard that Ice Beam/Rock Slide Greninja is the bane of ArVaDa-'s existence :^) lol). As scp said, if it works for you, that's good teambuilding, good job. But it also leaves you shorthanded against these other types. If you go into the Steel matchup knowing that you have only 5 Pokemon to their 6, this leaves you obviously at a disadvantage from the start. I know that not everyone runs the same sets as me, I'm explaining how I handle it (although ArkenCiel runs Iron Head Skarmory too, I learned today, so that's two people who do that :] ). Generic answers are generic, and most experienced players should already know them. I'm explaining alternate methods, but by all means, Heat Wave if you run it, or Discharge if you're feeling lucky. Lots of people do run Toxic>Heat Wave though, to put opposing walls on a timer. Char X happens to be neutral to everything that Greninja tries, outside of the rare Rock Slide, but it has great defensive bulk even without investment, WoW, and Roost. Sure, Ninja can switch out to reset the Toxic damage, but it still takes hazard damage the next time it comes in, it is still poisoned so it's still getting chip damage, and LO Recoil. So, it has probably taken around 58% damage at this point. Ouch, and it's ony attacked twice. If a Pokemon can threaten another Pokemon out consistently, and said Pokemon has reliable recovery and is bulky asf, then it can most likely do this multiple times throughout the game. Actually, you didn't say that, and your calcs were wrong :I Even if you kept the water typing, it should have done more damage (my first two calcs included the water typing, and were both with 0 Atk). Again, I know not everyone runs my sets, I'm displaying alternate methods of countering it, as generic answers are generic, and most experienced players should know them. Yes, in that situation I was saying sack Skarm. If you bring in Skarm on a special Greninja, you are probably aiming to sack it. In that situation that might actually be a good decision, assuming you have a way to handle Mega Gyarados/Mega Swampert and Azumarill or have already beat them (Water is predominantly special, after all). Yes, Greninja can tank the BB, but it took 2 rounds of LO recoil, the BB, and Rocks damage, which is around 85%-95% damage to take out one Pokemon. You can then go to Zapdos or Char X, and Roost until the LO recoil kills it. Yes they have clerics, so my job is to eliminate said clerics ASAP. Even if they have a switch-in for the status, it still means I outspeed whatever it is, and can deal with it accordingly.
So basically, I agree with scpinion in his opinion that Greninja isn't broken by any of the factors listed by Nani Man, and saying what do you do if said Pokemon comes in on your counter is irrelevant--I don't think explaining how I counter every individual Pokemon contributes to the ban discussion. Besides, I can always switch out my Greninja counter to my counter of their counter to my Greninja counter XD

 

[feen]

Let's say, for example, that you hate Flying, Ground, Grass, and Fairy. So, you run Ice Beam/Gunk Shot/Rock Slide/Grass Knot to handle those types. Now, you are walled by every Steel type ever, in the history of Pokemon

Yes you're walled by steel type, but you have access to Keldeo, which, if you do not know, destroys steel. And the way you're saying that isn't logical. For example, who needs a skarm v fire teams in fly? Who needs a Tran v ground teams in steel? Also this following quote is unrelated because 1 mon can mean autowin against another type provided the set and the skills. eg- Talonflame v fighting teams in fire.

If you go into the Steel matchup knowing that you have only 5 Pokemon to their 6, this leaves you obviously at a disadvantage from the start.

Char X happens to be neutral to everything that Greninja tries, outside of the rare Rock Slide, but it has great defensive bulk even without investment, WoW, and Roost

Not all Zard X are spD variants and but it has great defensive bulk
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 187-220 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sure, Ninja can switch out to reset the Toxic damage, but it still takes hazard damage the next time it comes in, it is still poisoned so it's still getting chip damage, and LO Recoil.

Water has access to defog Empoleon and Rapid Spin Tentacruel for hazards.

Also, the reason Greninja is broken is because it can nuke a mon regarding it's sets, which you don't know and when you figured out, you find out you lost 2 crucial mons. Also, yes it's frail as hell and you can outspeed with a scarfer and revenge kill it. He can always switch out to his bulky teammates in water: Alomomola, Swampert, Slowbro, Lanturn, Tentacruel and in dark: Umbreon, Tyranittar, Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye, Krookodile. And it can always come back in on a safe switch and nuke something else and leave ez pz.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I would like to add another point to the ban Mega Metagross discussion, in that it forms amazing cores. Yes, plural. It works well with multiple Pokemon specifically, as well as appreciating certain other traits:

Mega Metagross + Magnezone
Mega Metagross and Magnezone form an amazing Offensive core. Some of the biggest threats to Mega Metagross include Skarmory (wall), Bisharp (Sucker Punch), and Ferrothorn (wall). Magnet Pull Magnezone can easily trap and eliminate these Pokemon, allowing Mega Metagross to sweep the rest of the team unhindered. It also helps against Jellicent, as it threatens with a STAB Thunderbolt, but this can be bad for the opponent, as you may decide to Volt Switch for momentum instead, hurting whatever came in, and switching to your appropriate counter or to Mega Metagross itself, to clean up.

Mega Metagross + Scizor
The Bullet Punch twins will wreck almost every Ice, Rock, and Fairy teams in existence. I did the Ice core challenge, and the only way I could beat this was to hope that Mega Metagross used Meteor Mash>Bullet Punch against Specs Froslass, who can't even OHKO, then let Piloswine take 30% from Bullet Punch to finish up. For Scizor, I have to sack whatever was in to bring in HP Fire Walrein safely, and if it is Band or there are Rocks or it is SD, it was pretty much gg. Especially now that Kyurem-W is banned, Ice struggles a lot against a well played Mega Metagross + Scizor core. One is usually too much--both of them make Ice, Fairy, and Rock almost autowins if you play right, while also threatening other monotypes that don't resist them.

Mega Metagross + Klefki or Mega Metagross + Espeon/Latias/Cresselia/Celebi
Mega Metagross is sooo bulky on its own, and is a pain to kill at the best of times. When you put it behind screens, it is very hard to kill.

Mega Metagross + Jirachi or Mega Metagross + Jirachi/Gardevoir/Latias/Chimecho
Pretty self explanatory. YAY, you managed to burn or paralyze and weaken Mega Metagross! Never mind, Healing Wish exists. Facing this monster twice is horrible to consider. You could even potentially face it up to 4 or 5 times on Psychic if the Psychic user feels like it. *shudder*

Mega Metagross + Heal Bell/Wish support
I didn't list Pokemon for this one, as Psychic has so many bulky clerics and Wish passers, pick any of them and they can consistently keep Mega Metagross healthy without having to sacrifice themselves. It only has Jirachi for Wish passing on Steel though.

Mega Metagross + Hazards
Just break Sashes/Sturdy leading to more OHKOs and easier sweeps.

Mega Metagross + Heatran + Skarmory
A hard to break defensive core that covers each other's weaknesses very well. Heatran takes every Fire hit, as well as taking neutral damage from Dark, Ghost, and Electric. Skarmory is immune to Ground and neutral to Fighting. Mega Metagross is also neutral to Fighting, and balances out the core by giving it a physical offensive Pokemon.

Mega Metagross + Victini + Gardevoir/Latios
This offensive core is amazing. It has an excellent physical attackers, an excellent special attacker, and a Pokemon who could go either way, or mixed. They each check each other's counters really well, and are generally dangerous, threatening much of the metagame. Victini especially pairs well with Megagross to eliminate walls such as Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Jellicent for it.

So in conclusion, I still think Mega Metagross deserves a ban, as not only is it powerful, bulky, and fast on its own, but it completes many fearsome cores that either aid it to sweep, or support it defensively, making it broken in the current monotype metagame.

 

[Lilymoding]

I feel like I should repost my old post, for it goes well in conjunction with the post before this:

Okay so enough talk about Mega Sableye because as far as I know thats been tabled. The focus is on Greninja and Mega Metagross.

I'm not even gonna start with Greninja. All I ever use is water so I'm a tad biased and can't come up with an actual educated opinion atm.

On the other hand... Mega Metagross is a problem. To be honest I'll do another post about it on Psychic, but for Steel... How about we go through the checklist for banning a pokemon:

1. If a pokemon promotes type based matchups mattering a whole lot more, it will also be banned. (eg Kyurem-W,Skymin)

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Well first of all, just for anybody who says Fairy can beat Mega Meta because Mega Diancie Earth Power...
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 348-412 (144.3 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Good luck E Powering from the grave. However there is team support from klefki (On fairy) to put up a reflect, which could help.. but that leads us into point number 2, so we can come back to that.

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 180-214 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 176-208 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 162-192 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
--Reflect up---
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 90-107 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

Looks like Klefki has a slight chance.

As for fighting... good luck. If Mega Metagross want's to carry psychic STAB (which to my knowledge I could see being useful on steel teams) you're check is what, Scrafty? Pangoro? Dark Pulse Lucario?? I don't have much experience, but I see this thing EASILY tearing through fighting teams. Oh and as for Terrakion coming in and revenge killing it:
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 170-202 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 464-548 (143.6 - 169.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 206-246 (63.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if Terrak literally has a scratch on it, it will die to priority if Mega Meta isn't at full health. However, if you are in the wonderful situation where Mega Meta is at below 56.4% and Terrak is at full health, guess what can come right in and save the day? A wonderful little bird that we can discuss later on.

Ice: Do I even need to try. If Ice has problems with scizor than it's gonna have major problems with Mega Metagross, and with Kyurem-White back home it makes matters worse. However, just to amuse you, let me run some calcs on some of Ice's supposed walls.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 248-294 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Done. Get it because Ice has no walls. just kidding I better throw some neutral damages in there as well.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 232 HP / 220+ Def Walrein: 169-199 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Walrein is EXTREMELY passive, so it isn't going to do anything to mega meta either way.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 256-303 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah same with this one.


Electric: Here's a type that I'm more experienced with. I've been playing electric for a while and let me tell you this thing is an absolute, egregious monstrosity of a Pokemon. Literally the only true check would be max defense Zapdos... but even then...

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Still massive damage. At least Zapdos can hurt bad with Heat Wave back right?

4 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can!!!.... until you realize there's a spider in the background.

Okay I've spent WAY too long on this post, next rule:

2. If the pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength, it will be banned. (eg Mega Slowbro/Mence)

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Ohohohoho the infamous steel core. Skarmory and Heatran give Mega Metagross EXCELLENT Team Support for any situation, whether it be defogging away screens or absorbing Fire moves, evading equake (or physical attackers in general for that matter), Hell it even has Doublade if it MUST switch away from a fighting type move. Worried about Dark Pulse? Well if Mega Meta didn't already maim the attacker, Bisharp can eat it up nicely and EASILY Sucker Punch/Iron Head/Knock Off it's way to victory. Also back to the spider in the back, Heatran literally eats everything up special wise (save like specs keldeo) and Skarm can happily take physical hits.

Ok that was quick. Not much to say about the Steel core in general, we all know it's amazing. Last point:

3. If the pokemon forms a deadly core that cannot be beaten by most teams, it will be banned. (eg Aegislash on Steel)

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Well I don't really know about being in a defensive core, but what I do know that this thing does have a good amount of bulk to it, and should't be over looked. Overall, I don't see it necessarily infringing on this rule, but who knows maybe someone else sees otherwise

Okay that's all I gotta say. Since I know I probably messed something up somewhere up there, feel free to point out all of the places I fucked up and tell me. thanks plz like and fite the power

Also I recently got to look at the stats, and Steel has just about a 75% win rate against Ice, Rock, and Fairy. I think that needs a tad bit of a nerf, don't you? I mean it won't help that much, but it's a step in the good direction.

Also I was looking through older posts, and i saw complaints about Kyu W's ban, all i have to say is: Just because your type is bad doesn't mean you get to have a broken mon. Sometimes there is no solid middle ground, but just because you autolose to steel doesn't mean you should be able to autowin against it. It's like Ghost needing Giratina for defog, just because you don't have a defogger doesnt mean you get to bring down giratina no matter how much you need it.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Yes you're walled by steel type, but you have access to Keldeo, which, if you do not know, destroys steel. And the way you're saying that isn't logical. For example, who needs a skarm v fire teams in fly? Who needs a Tran v ground teams in steel? Also this following quote is unrelated because 1 mon can mean autowin against another type provided the set and the skills. eg- Talonflame v fighting teams in fire.




Not all Zard X are spD variants and but it has great defensive bulk
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 187-220 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Water has access to defog Empoleon and Rapid Spin Tentacruel for hazards.

Also, the reason Greninja is broken is because it can nuke a mon regarding it's sets, which you don't know and when you figured out, you find out you lost 2 crucial mons. Also, yes it's frail as hell and you can outspeed with a scarfer and revenge kill it. He can always switch out to his bulky teammates in water: Alomomola, Swampert, Slowbro, Lanturn, Tentacruel and in dark: Umbreon, Tyranittar, Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye, Krookodile. And it can always come back in on a safe switch and nuke something else and leave ez pz.

Yeah Keldeo does work against Steel, but good Steel players should have a way to counter it, and tbh, I think my point stands. If you have one Pokemon that is useless, and they have a solid team of 6, it is an uphill battle for sure. Skarm is still useful vs. Fire to A) Set Rocks (Sturdy means it lives one hit) and B) Sack for death fodder, and get Rocky Helmet chip damage on something like Entei or Darmanitan. If you know it struggles with that type it makes decision making on who to sack easier ;)
Great DEFENSIVE bulk=111 base defense stat. And the top 16 most common Char X spreads have AT LEAST 224 HP rof. And that calculation does show its bulk, as well--it can take the Ice Beam (even if it crits), Dragon Dance up, then KO with Flare Blitz or Fire Punch. It also has Roost for reliable recovery.
One good EQ bops Empoleon and Tentacruel, and you can also reset Rocks.
I think it's been said before that yes, Greninja can run a move to beat something, but that weakens it against another type. Running Rock Slide/Ice Beam leaves you walled by Gastrodon for example. Overall its frailty and not overwhelmingly strong attacking stats mean it isn't broken. It doesn't form any broken cores, and it doesn't sweep types without sacrificing its utility against others. It is a pretty powerful threat that has to be considered when teambuilding, but then again, so are others, such as Sand Rush Excadrill or Volcarona.

 

[feen]

Yeah Keldeo does work against Steel, but good Steel players should have a way to counter it

Lol like what? AV Jirachi?

Skarm is still useful vs. Fire to A) Set Rocks (Sturdy means it lives one hit) and B) Sack for death fodder, and get Rocky Helmet chip damage on something like Entei or Darmanitan. If you know it struggles with that type it makes decision making on who to sack easier ;)

That's what everyone does if a pokemon is useless

And the top 16 most common Char X spreads have AT LEAST 224 HP rof.

No they all run DD unless they stole the set from me and runs Bulky WoW set because I'm the only user in high ladder.

One good EQ bops Empoleon and Tentacruel, and you can also reset Rocks.

Zard usually runs DClaw+Blitz because EQ can be found in Lando, Gliscor which hits harder.

I think it's been said before that yes, Greninja can run a move to beat something, but that weakens it against another type. Running Rock Slide/Ice Beam leaves you walled by Gastrodon for example. Overall its frailty and not overwhelmingly strong attacking stats mean it isn't broken. It doesn't form any broken cores, and it doesn't sweep types without sacrificing its utility against others. It is a pretty powerful threat that has to be considered when teambuilding, but then again, so are others, such as Sand Rush Excadrill or Volcarona.

Yes but finding out the set requires you to sack/dent your walls upto a point where it costs you the game. Also what does flying have for scarf ninja? SpD Gyarados and Articuno? They have Bisharp, Ttar and Azumaril for that. You stated "It is a pretty powerful threat that has to be considered when teambuilding, but then again, so are others, such as Sand Rush Excadrill or Volcarona" But tell me this how can flying legitimately win against this thing? It can switch out and then come back and kill something else :\

Ban this Uber.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Lol like what? AV Jirachi?

That's what everyone does if a pokemon is useless

No they all run DD unless they stole the set from me and runs Bulky WoW set because I'm the only user in high ladder.

Zard usually runs DClaw+Blitz because EQ can be found in Lando, Gliscor which hits harder.

Yes but finding out the set requires you to sack/dent your walls upto a point where it costs you the game. Also what does flying have for scarf ninja? SpD Gyarados and Articuno? They have Bisharp, Ttar and Azumaril for that. You stated "It is a pretty powerful threat that has to be considered when teambuilding, but then again, so are others, such as Sand Rush Excadrill or Volcarona" But tell me this how can flying legitimately win against this thing? It can switch out and then come back and kill something else :\

Ban this Uber.

Alright, that's weird Char X doesn't run that much HP always, I must have clicked another Pokemon, but I was sure I was on Zard :L Only 44.1% of Charizards run DD though. Also, you're right, Lando or Gliscor do Ground moves better. That makes the opposing hazard remover even more scared though. Yeah, you have bulky Gyarados, Articuno, or bulky Zard X. You can say that they have Bisharp and Azumarill and Tyranitar, but guess what? You have Skarmory and Landorus-T and Gliscor.
Flying can run Thundurus-Therian for Prankster Paralysis
Zapdos tanks an Ice Beam and Heat Waves
Anything with a Scarf outspeeds LO Greninja (Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Staraptor, or Salamence)
If it is Scarf you can tank the move it is locked into accordingly
You have priority (Sucker Punch from Honchkrow, Extremespeed from Dragonite)
Char X and Gyarados can tank an Ice Beam then use Dragon Dance to outspeed LO Greninja and hit hard
Hawlucha outspeeds even Scarf Greninja after Unburden has activated
Also, I think you probably have a way to beat Greninja--you wouldn't be a top 2 player if you couldn't.

 

[all falls down]

Shifting the topic a little, Mega Metagross:

As we've seen, Steel has always been a dangerous type in that it has always been borderline powerful and one Pokemon can put it over the edge. We've seen that with Mega Lucario, Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and now Mega Metagross. Steel's core is still one of the best in the metagame without Aegislash, with Ferrothorn, Heatran and Skamory being a huge threat to pretty much every type except perhaps Fire. Before ORAS, Steel was still a top type due to its offensive core, but some gaping weaknesses prevented it from being too overpowered. Weaknesses like speed, coverage, and the threat of being walled by Slowbro, swept by Landorus-I, and more all shaped Steel to being a very balanced and fair type. Metagross breaks this balance in a few ways:

• Mega Metagross remedies almost all of these weaknesses, with its blazing 110 speed being able to easily OHKO threats that previous swept all of Steel like Landorus-I, and coverage in Grass Knot being able to destroy bulky walls like Slowbro that previously were able to wall almost the entire Steel team. Not only does it help against these weaknesses, it also is able to demolish teams that Steel already had an easy time with. Fairy, Rock, and Ice are utterly decimated by Metagross to the point where many People agree that winning Fairy vs Steel or Ice vs Steel is impossible outside of insane luck. Prior to Metagross, both of these types had at least a fighting chance. Metagross is unhealthy for the Monotype Metagame because it makes an already top tier type even better and reduces the viability of two lesser used types.
• Furthermore, Metagross is already being suspected in OU, and while I predict that it will stay unbanned for OU, I think that it is much worse in Monotype. Only a few counters exist for Metagross, but on top of this, these few counters only exist for a few types (example - Skarmory on Steel and Flying). I have also seen a rise of Magnet Pull Magnezone + Metagross on Steel teams recently, and this can completely decimate Flying teams if used correctly because once Skarmory is gone, Metagross OHKO/2HKO's the whole team. Other checks like scarfed Landorus-Therian again pretty much only exist on Flying teams (Ground teams opt for Incarnate).
• Adding to Metagross' insane offensive potential, it has absolutely phenomenal bulk which makes it extremely difficult to revenge kill for many types. 80/150/110 bulk is too much when combined with its ability to OHKO or 2HKO most things. This demolishes offensive types like Fighting, where everything is frail and OHKO'd by Metagross while also being unable to do significant damage to Metagross.

just because im still amazed by its bulk:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[ArkenCiel]

Yeah, that's the thing about Greninja. It can choose what type it will beat with its colorful movepool in tandem with its offensive stats and amazing ability. What's worse is that the two types it belongs in have great walls that will absorb any revenge-killing attempts against this frog.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-212679404

Greninja said, "Let the Flying types become familiar with the ground," he willed it, and so it happened. The Flying Pokemon were buried on that day. That team had no chance. You're probably questioning the replay, like why didn't Thundurus t-wave? We can assume it lacked it, but even if it had it, Swampert would then become a clean switch-in to Thundurus' t-wave. After revealing it, all Greninja has to do is play around it while picking off the rest of the team and gg Flying.

It's noteworthy to add that it's a much more potent threat on water just because the type itself is just so diverse. Only 3 Pokemon are used more than 50% of the time on Water whereas double that amount sees more than 50% usage on Dark. Are Dark users just uncreative? Lol, I wouldn't say that, but it's just that Water has A LOT of options. What Greninja is lacking against can be picked up easily from the vast amount of options that the Water-type has. Dark isn't as fortunate in that regard. When you compare the moves used on both types in the higher ladder, Greninja on Dark is primarily restricted to just special moves bar Gunk Shot, but on Water, it can easily be physical, special, or a mix between the two.

While it may be the same broken Pokemon, I am willing to admit that it's not as big a problem on Dark monos because its moveset is more predictable due to the lack of the type's diversity.

Just a silly note, but if we just ban Protean on Greninja.. I don't think anyone would have a problem with keeping it in the tier minus the people against complex bans.

 

[feen]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-213164483

Greninja said, "Let the ground types be crumbled" and so they did. With a combination of Grass Knot, Ice Beam and Surf (and prediction) it has managed to clean an entire ground team. How is that even fair? Ground has literally nothing for this. Although he did do well with the RP Lando, (although alomomola would have killed it), so the scald burn didn't matter.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 286-337 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Ban pls.

 

[Funbot28]

When did Shayman-Sky get global banned?