It's a fairly consistent Xerneas answer while checking scarf Koraidon, non-tera ground tera blast Zacian slots, and Mega-Lucario. It also has much more utility than Eternatus because of will-o, twave, roar, rocks, etc., that come with being an arc-form rather than just mashing sludge bomb and dynamax cannon. (Side note: absorbing toxic/ t-spikes is really nice though ig that's not a reason over Etern just a bonus.) The ndu open had some replays with it but I'm not sure how much it's used on ladder which is probably why you don't see it :shrug:
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Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #5 at post 188!]
- Thread starter entrocefalo
- Start date
Why is Chien Pao ranked D? I understand that the meta is too strong for it, but it matches up decently with it's typing, allowing it to supereffectively hit the most prominent Pokemon, such as Necrozma-Dusk mane, Yveltal, Eternatus and Zygarde. This is the exact reason why weaville was usable in gen 8 ubers, and I feel like Chien-Pao should be C+ at the very least, having an offensive niche in the meta, with swords dance and choice band sets both exerting tremendous pressure against the best Pokemon in the tier.
Chien-Pao doesn't really hit as hard as one might think. Aside from priority, it provides little utility to the team. Weavile had Knock Off in Gen 8 Ubers, as well as Triple Axel which hits the opponent harder than any of Chien-Pao's ice moves. Most of the mons ranked above Pao have substantial defensive value or immense utility. Chien-Pao doesn't provide anything other Uber tier wallbreakers can't accomplish, and offense is the only thing it's capable of.
Furthermore, it simply faces far too much competition from the other two Ice Types who do its job significantly better in the current Metagame, Calyrex Ice Rider having extremely potent Subseed and Trick Room sweeping sets letting it surgically dissect balance or offense depending on the set with much more consistency than Chien-Pao, or Kyurem Black's sheer power and potential to simply end games on the spot, compared to Chien-Pao who ends up being little more than an underwhelming middle ground between the two who cannot meaningfully set itself apart from the other two options.
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Im not gonna argue about the blacklist, but it is frustrating to not be given any reason for why it is unarguably unviable. Also, kingambit is now ubers, and thus must now be placed in d-tier
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The D rank is not blacklisted in Ubers. Any tier tbh that blacklists Pokemon for simply being in a rank are idiots anyway so you are free to discuss whatever one you want if you have reasonings/success. Its sad that some mons get blacklisted due to certain users but the forums needs to be readable.
bill.is.me
Banned deucer.
when you realize choice band chien pao is still weaker than a choice *scarf* koraidon...
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 120 Def Arceus-Fairy: 204-240 (46 - 54.1%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 120 Def Arceus-Fairy in Sun: 209-246 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
It's not weak and the speed+priority is nice but it just doesn't have the raw power or ability to stick around that it would need to really make progress especially with mons like ho-oh able to scout for band and the moves it's locking into while a ton of mons can exploit the lack of immediate power or longevity if running any other set.
Furthermore zacian just owns it...
Petition to raise Heatran from C to C+
this is due to the set that i rediscovered thanks to some ruins of alph research
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
this is a set that can take on and reliably stall out top pokemon like MMY since you can sub after 1 focus blast, toxic, and protect stall, Xern lacking earth power with toxic and protect stall, Eternatus since t killer cannot hit it, and offensive can only hit it with meteor beam and resisted moves, Pdon (with tera grass) and toxic stall, Ho oh lacking earthquake, Defensive NDM, walls out kyurem white and can manage chi yu (252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) since protect gives you 2 turns of leftovers, beats mega salamence without EQ, checks special Giratina-O, and can chip down Arceus Poison
this is due to the set that i rediscovered thanks to some ruins of alph research
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
this is a set that can take on and reliably stall out top pokemon like MMY since you can sub after 1 focus blast, toxic, and protect stall, Xern lacking earth power with toxic and protect stall, Eternatus since t killer cannot hit it, and offensive can only hit it with meteor beam and resisted moves, Pdon (with tera grass) and toxic stall, Ho oh lacking earthquake, Defensive NDM, walls out kyurem white and can manage chi yu (252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) since protect gives you 2 turns of leftovers, beats mega salamence without EQ, checks special Giratina-O, and can chip down Arceus Poison
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Very accurate ranking so far. I believe as good as Ho-Oh is, S-rank is a bit much for it. Compared to PDon and Koraidon it is much less immediately threatening, and while it is one of the most prominent defensive backbone in the metagame, it can still be broken fairly easily with the right set or the right Tera play. It exerts also much less building strain than Zygarde-C. Drops to S-
Arceus-Fairy on the other hand is one of the most important Arceus form as the typing is very desirable in this metagame. Being able to check SD Draconium Koraidon and Zygarde-C in one slot helps a lot. Rises to A+
Primal-Kyogre suffers from low speed and little switch-in opportunities. Almost always needing to take one attack before retaliating is not a desirable trait, even though raw power is unmatched and actually good in certain matchups. Drops to A
I believe the drop of Necrozma-DM was too drastic, as it is still one of the bulkiest Steel out there and can alleviate some pressure on PDon as it checks Xerneas and Eternatus superbly. Rises to A
A little bump within A- for Necrozma-Ultra with only Arceus-Dark as a hard check. On the other hand, Marshadow's lack of defensive utility really hurts when building a team. This would be less of problem if it didn't get oustped and OHKO'd by Koraidon, Zacian or even Eternatus. Drops to A- and I would even argue for B+.
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Very accurate ranking so far. I believe as good as Ho-Oh is, S-rank is a bit much for it. Compared to PDon and Koraidon it is much less immediately threatening, and while it is one of the most prominent defensive backbone in the metagame, it can still be broken fairly easily with the right set or the right Tera play. It exerts also much less building strain than Zygarde-C. Drops to S-
Arceus-Fairy on the other hand is one of the most important Arceus form as the typing is very desirable in this metagame. Being able to check SD Draconium Koraidon and Zygarde-C in one slot helps a lot. Rises to A+
Primal-Kyogre suffers from low speed and little switch-in opportunities. Almost always needing to take one attack before retaliating is not a desirable trait, even though raw power is unmatched and actually good in certain matchups. Drops to A
I believe the drop of Necrozma-DM was too drastic, as it is still one of the bulkiest Steel out there and can alleviate some pressure on PDon as it checks Xerneas and Eternatus superbly. Rises to A
A little bump within A- for Necrozma-Ultra with only Arceus-Dark as a hard check. On the other hand, Marshadow's lack of defensive utility really hurts when building a team. This would be less of problem if it didn't get oustped and OHKO'd by Koraidon, Zacian or even Eternatus. Drops to A- and I would even argue for B+.
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I have questions regarding the Marshadow nominee. In my experience, Marshadow provides an excellent revenge killer into massive threats like Necrozma, Ultra-Necrozma, Arceus, Cm arceus formes (stops them from garnering boosts), and coil-garde, an excellent trait for a physical attackers. This along with being able to Revenge kill non SE targets such as Xerneas and Zacian after tera ghost sneakS+
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Very accurate ranking so far. I believe as good as Ho-Oh is, S-rank is a bit much for it. Compared to PDon and Koraidon it is much less immediately threatening, and while it is one of the most prominent defensive backbone in the metagame, it can still be broken fairly easily with the right set or the right Tera play. It exerts also much less building strain than Zygarde-C. Drops to S-
Arceus-Fairy on the other hand is one of the most important Arceus form as the typing is very desirable in this metagame. Being able to check SD Draconium Koraidon and Zygarde-C in one slot helps a lot. Rises to A+
Primal-Kyogre suffers from low speed and little switch-in opportunities. Almost always needing to take one attack before retaliating is not a desirable trait, even though raw power is unmatched and actually good in certain matchups. Drops to A
I believe the drop of Necrozma-DM was too drastic, as it is still one of the bulkiest Steel out there and can alleviate some pressure on PDon as it checks Xerneas and Eternatus superbly. Rises to A
A little bump within A- for Necrozma-Ultra with only Arceus-Dark as a hard check. On the other hand, Marshadow's lack of defensive utility really hurts when building a team. This would be less of problem if it didn't get oustped and OHKO'd by Koraidon, Zacian or even Eternatus. Drops to A- and I would even argue for B+.
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 170-202 (52.3 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 48 HP / 36 Def Xerneas: 192-228 (47.4 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO.
This lets a team handle these massive threats much easier, and while its not the most splash-able mon, saying it has no defensive utility feels questionable. This may seem minimal, but even if it only beat those 4 mons in Necro, arc, Unecro, and garde, that would still be insanely valuable to most teams because of how strong those mons are. Also most mons are revenge killed by Korai, zacian, etern, Marsh at least has sneak priority. There's more to be said about its general power, and even what I've currently said regarding defense, but I hope this gave a new lens into its potential defensive value.
did you really rank arceus poison in a tier but not even rank arceus ghostS+
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Very accurate ranking so far. I believe as good as Ho-Oh is, S-rank is a bit much for it. Compared to PDon and Koraidon it is much less immediately threatening, and while it is one of the most prominent defensive backbone in the metagame, it can still be broken fairly easily with the right set or the right Tera play. It exerts also much less building strain than Zygarde-C. Drops to S-
Arceus-Fairy on the other hand is one of the most important Arceus form as the typing is very desirable in this metagame. Being able to check SD Draconium Koraidon and Zygarde-C in one slot helps a lot. Rises to A+
Primal-Kyogre suffers from low speed and little switch-in opportunities. Almost always needing to take one attack before retaliating is not a desirable trait, even though raw power is unmatched and actually good in certain matchups. Drops to A
I believe the drop of Necrozma-DM was too drastic, as it is still one of the bulkiest Steel out there and can alleviate some pressure on PDon as it checks Xerneas and Eternatus superbly. Rises to A
A little bump within A- for Necrozma-Ultra with only Arceus-Dark as a hard check. On the other hand, Marshadow's lack of defensive utility really hurts when building a team. This would be less of problem if it didn't get oustped and OHKO'd by Koraidon, Zacian or even Eternatus. Drops to A- and I would even argue for B+.
This is exactly why I nominated for A- at the end and not B+.
Marshadow hard loses against any Zygarde as it gets Glared. It also doesn't prevent any Arceus from setting up as it cannot switch-in. It does well against defensive Necrozma, but against DD variants: 252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 234-276 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, while it is forced to burn Tera to guarantee the KO on Ultra Necrozma which can otherwise be EV'ed to survive one without sacrificing any relevant KO benchmarks.
Having to Tera and hold a CB and still only do:
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 164-194 (43 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eternatus: 200-236 (47.5 - 56%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 128-152 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
on top of the calcs you posted leaves something to be desired.
Yes, Technician-boosted Shadow Sneak is not exactly weak for a priority attack, but plenty of threats including the one you mentioned can take even a CB Tera-boosted one while KOing Marshadow back. Keep in mind you need both CB and Tera to achieve these.
Marshadow gives a team a decent revenge killer option provided the opposing threat is weakened enough, it can be hard to find a decent switch-in on CB Poltergeist, but Marshadow itself seldom finds switch-in opportunities and is forced out by pretty much every Pokemon that can take a hit and retaliate back. That's not to say it is without its qualities but A rank comprises of Pokemon such as Kyogre, whose raw power is unmatched and can actually check some specific threats in the metagame, Arceus with a stronger priority move and the bulk to set up, Flutter Mane who speed ties Koraidon and dismantle common defensive cores with Moonblast/Shadow Ball/Power Gem or Salamence-Mega who provides decent counterplay against the best Pokemon in the tier and also hits as hard as CB Marshadow.
I only did S and A ranks, some Pokemon are decent in B+/B but past this are becoming very fringe options. I encourage you to post to rise Arceus-Ghost and/or drop Arceus-Poison if you disagree. They are fairly ranked if you ask me.
im not an expert in viability rankings, so i dont like discussing exact placements, but ive seen arceus poison once in my whole time playing the format and after a swords dance, max attack arceus ghosts shadow force does almost as much damage as a +1 light that burns the sky.
Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
But, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't Phantom Force take two turns (making it predictable [unless it's 1v1 endgame])? Unless you use Power Herb, or Tera Blast (which is 10 BP lower), I don't see Arceus-Ghost doing much (no offense).
alright, now find a non normal type that can switch into it
I believe the time has arrived for a proper Koraidon suspect test. With Loaded Dice and Scale Shot, some of its semi-reliable checks like Ho-Oh are now vulnerable against it.
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 455-540 (109.6 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While this loses out benefit of other items, it gives Koraidon a reliable and stronf dragon STAB that also enhances its chances to sweep.
It does have weaknesses, such as being even more vulnerable to priority (Espeed in particular), but this set offers even greater variety to Koraidon sets, which makes it even more difficult to prepare for it (Koraidon still has sets like BU/Band up in its sleeves).
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 455-540 (109.6 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While this loses out benefit of other items, it gives Koraidon a reliable and stronf dragon STAB that also enhances its chances to sweep.
It does have weaknesses, such as being even more vulnerable to priority (Espeed in particular), but this set offers even greater variety to Koraidon sets, which makes it even more difficult to prepare for it (Koraidon still has sets like BU/Band up in its sleeves).
Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
Nah. You can do all that. I said what I said.
where is normal zygarde on the viability rankings?
Because nobody really wants 50% Zygarde, they want 100%. The only advantage having 50% has over 100% is that it's 10 base points faster, but thats definitely not worth the 108 HP you get.
i said where. its the one ubers mon not on the list, not even in d tier.
every single different form is ranked differently. zygarde is the only exception.
also, aparently dragapult is ubers now. better add it to d tier.
same goes for ogrepon.
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Theyre the same pokemon
Weirdhamster
Banned deucer.
from D - B+Mewtwo has no reason to be in the D rankings. It is nowhere near unviable as the current viability ranking says. One might be confused to as why I am nominating it to the same ranking as its more powerful version,
so I’ll begin to explain my reasonings.When looking in a vacuum, yes,
does look strictly inferior to , but that’s not really the case here. There are 2 big things that set these apart. First of all, , unlike has the pressure ability, and a defense stat 20 points higher than its mega counterpart. You might be confused to as why this matters, but I’ll come to that later. The second thing that differentiates them is the fact that is able to hold an item. Of course having forced to hold an item not make it any worse. This has been proven multiple times with the likes of 
, 
, 
and others. However, not being forced to hold an item does give it more roomspace.The nasty plot moveset is almost entirely outclassed by
, even when equipped with a 
, it still has a 44% chance to not knock out ho-oh in 1 hit after a nasty plot, and whilst it’s better than s roll, the lacking speed is crucial. However, the one set that sets it apart from its mega counterpart, is the foul2 set.If you’re someone who’s not familiar with the ubers meta historically, you might be confused to as what the set is, and what it does. But if you have played ubers for a while, you may remember it being a big threat in old ubers metas, and after playing with it myself, I do believe that it still has a niche in the current meta.
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play
- Recover
(Keep in mind that this nomination is heavily stall biased)
Using
as a defensive presence may look odd, but it does have some niches going for it. First of all, with willowisp and foul play, it can become very threatening against a lot of physical attackers. It specifically matchups up well against the mighty . While this may not look very promising at first due to a handful of other pokemon checking , still has a small niche over them all.First of all, while
may look like a straight up better check to it, as it not only is immune to a light that burns the sky, but is also sure to get a one hit knock out it decided to stay in its original form, not ultra bursting into , and thus keeping its prism armor ability. But 1 big flaw comes with this. The ability to not use another arceus form. Ever since national dex anything goes was replaced with national dex ubers, species clause has been removed, thus not allowing the use of multiple arceuses when building a team. is one of the top pokemon in the tier, with its ability to be any type a user desires, it can be fit on a lot of different team structures, which means that if you want to use another , you will not be able to use to check .But there are still other viable dark types that can be used to check
. is a prime example. With its massive hp stat in conjunction with stab foul play, it looks like all the problems are solved. Not only does check , it also leaves room for an in the tesmbuilder. This is however, when a new problem pops up. 
leads. This may seem extremely nitpicky. Glimmora leads aren’t very common, and even if you do happen to face one, there’s often another pokemon on your team that can handle it. This however, is not the case with stall teams.The only reliable pokemon commonly seen on stall that can tear apart
leads is with its infamous tkiller set. This, however runs into a new problem. Role compression. Whilst yes, you can use and to both beat and , you can still do both of that with a foultwo set. At the end of the day, you only have 6 pokemon and 36 moves to beat 1000 pokemon. This is why role compression is so important. If you can use 1 pokemon to do the job for 2 pokemon, that’s a good trade. You will not be able to just put both and on every team, which is why this set is that effective. If you still think that beating leads is too nitpicky, can still help against other matchups.It does have some small niches such as out speeding and being able to burn taunt
forms, but one of the biggest reasons to use it is due to its still effective offensive presence. Even with uninvested special attack, can still hit hard, most importantly against the rest calm mind set.With rest and calm mind, it can feel very heinous to play against this set. It can be very tough to take down with 8 rest pp and the ability you burn you with scald.
fixes that. With uninvested attack, you can make sure to be able to 3hko an opposing when switching in. This means that you won’t have to use as many resources as you’d normally need.With a base speed of 130 in conjunction with foul play, it can still be able to hit some big threats hard. Physical set up sweepers such as swords dance
that hasn’t gotten time to rock polish yet, can take about 50% damage from a foul play coming from a . But there are also other big threats that can handle. Powerful psychic types such as the aforementioned or 
aren’t able to hit with their psychic stab very hard and can take lots of damage from foul play due to their low defenses. may still look like a very niche pokemon, and some may argue that it shouldn’t be in the same tier as , and u totally agree with that. The problem comes up when you look at the lower tiers. B tier, the tier under B+ has pokemon such as 
, a pokemon that is never seen in high ladder and is mainly just a bad matchup fish pokemon into stall, and 
who lost its niche in the metagame with smash pass being banned. is a middle of the road type of pokemon in that sense. It has better niches than a lot of the pokemon in B rank, but is generally worse than the pokemon in B+ rank. If the vr gets an update, and removes the unviable pokemon from the middle tiers, would probably sit at around B or B- rank, but as of now it is now, the best i can give it is B+.I’ve personally been starting to use a foultwo team recently, and had some success on the high ladder peaking at 1930.
During the time laddering, I’ve also saved numerous replays of
doing good work.[Note that during these replays, my
was holding a 
only for speed creeping s not holding a 
. For the majority of games stood in its base form, and when it did mega, the main principle often still implied.]https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1944708352-ek1egcog44snqlfj1p3m08ylywspcjdpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1943388386-4748xzvmi57xvca171zapfgxhac6pvkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1942652961-mdr6uwntsgd1eop2qg4hu4nctnidjkmpw
Again, whilst
isn’t the most splashable pokemon ever, saying that’s it’s better than other pokemon such as 
, or 
and is unviable is just straight up not true.to be honest having the y stone on that sets seems very reasonable considering how often koraidon can get out hand even for stall teams. Not sure how that effects the ranking though because it wants to stay in its base form for obvious reasons.
You have provided some decent arguments, but none of them demonstrate why it should be ranked above C+, let alone B+.
Mewtwo has no reason to be in the D rankings. It is nowhere near unviable as the current viability ranking says. One might be confused to as why I am nominating it to the same ranking as its more powerful version,
When looking in a vacuum, yes,
The nasty plot moveset is almost entirely outclassed by
If you’re someone who’s not familiar with the ubers meta historically, you might be confused to as what the set is, and what it does. But if you have played ubers for a while, you may remember it being a big threat in old ubers metas, and after playing with it myself, I do believe that it still has a niche in the current meta.
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play
- Recover
(Keep in mind that this nomination is heavily stall biased)
Using
First of all, while
But there are still other viable dark types that can be used to check
The only reliable pokemon commonly seen on stall that can tear apart
It does have some small niches such as out speeding and being able to burn taunt
With rest and calm mind, it can feel very heinous to play against this set. It can be very tough to take down with 8 rest pp and the ability you burn you with scald.
With a base speed of 130 in conjunction with foul play, it can still be able to hit some big threats hard. Physical set up sweepers such as swords dance
I’ve personally been starting to use a foultwo team recently, and had some success on the high ladder peaking at 1930.
During the time laddering, I’ve also saved numerous replays of
[Note that during these replays, my
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1944708352-ek1egcog44snqlfj1p3m08ylywspcjdpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1943388386-4748xzvmi57xvca171zapfgxhac6pvkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1942652961-mdr6uwntsgd1eop2qg4hu4nctnidjkmpw
Again, whilst
Weirdhamster
Banned deucer.
I did say multiple times in the post that mewtwo has more niches than other pokemon in the low tiers like Gothitelle in B rank or Buzzwole in C+. I additionally provided high level replays of mewtwo preforming in high ladder play in the tier, proving it to not be an unviable pokémon.