Normal Balance

Ghoul King

Ghoul King

approved by Eevee General

Welcome to Normal Balance.

NormalBalanceBanner.png

Look ma, I can make horrifying banners that scare people off instead of drawing them in! Aren't you proud of -NO NOT THE LASH

This meta makes three broad classes of changes, all relating to Normal types.

1: Normal type Pokemon are vulnerable to Poison and Psychic, but resistant to Dragon and Fairy.

2: Normal type moves are super effective against Dragon and Fairy -if the user is Normal type.

3: Normal type moves are ineffective against Poison regardless of user.

Can you give Normal types a real niche without breaking the entire game? Hopefully this Metagame shows the answer is: absolutely!

Some notable beneficiaries of these changes include: Pyroar, who outspeeds and 2HKOs both Dragonite and Garchomp (Or even OHKOs Garchomp with a Life Orb!) and is all-around a hard-counter to Fairies with double resistance and STAB super effective attacks, Meloetta, who doesn't completely resent Relic Song, Sawsbuck, Heliolisk, and Bibarel, who alongside Pyroar appreciate anti-Dragon STAB to cover their other STAB's ineffective, and of course the myriad Poison and Psychic Pokemon who have more importance as counters to the more-prominent Normal types.

Which leads nicely into another point: Normal types can now be countered without needing a single specific (Admittedly very strong) attacking type. Snorlax and Blissey are less good of Special walls when every random Psyshock gets to hit them for super effective damage, and in general a Pokemon can fend off strong Normal types even if it lacks the likes of Close Combat or Focus Blast. This probably wouldn't unbreak Mega Kangaskhan, but it certainly makes Normal Pokemon in general less all-or-nothing, where they can either be really good and hard to counter or really bad and irrelevant because they have no niche to speak of.

What Pokemon do you think will rise in prominence or fall in importance?
 
Ghoul King said:
approved by Eevee General

Welcome to Normal Balance.

NormalBalanceBanner.png

Look ma, I can make horrifying banners that scare people off instead of drawing them in! Aren't you proud of -NO NOT THE LASH

This meta makes three broad classes of changes, all relating to Normal types.

1: Normal type Pokemon are vulnerable to Poison and Psychic, but resistant to Dragon and Fairy.

2: Normal type moves are super effective against Dragon and Fairy -if the user is Normal type.

3: Normal type moves are ineffective against Poison regardless of user.

Can you give Normal types a real niche without breaking the entire game? Hopefully this Metagame shows the answer is: absolutely!

Some notable beneficiaries of these changes include: Pyroar, who outspeeds and 2HKOs both Dragonite and Garchomp (Or even OHKOs Garchomp with a Life Orb!) and is all-around a hard-counter to Fairies with double resistance and STAB super effective attacks, Meloetta, who doesn't completely resent Relic Song, Sawsbuck, Heliolisk, and Bibarel, who alongside Pyroar appreciate anti-Dragon STAB to cover their other STAB's ineffective, and of course the myriad Poison and Psychic Pokemon who have more importance as counters to the more-prominent Normal types.

Which leads nicely into another point: Normal types can now be countered without needing a single specific (Admittedly very strong) attacking type. Snorlax and Blissey are less good of Special walls when every random Psyshock gets to hit them for super effective damage, and in general a Pokemon can fend off strong Normal types even if it lacks the likes of Close Combat or Focus Blast. This probably wouldn't unbreak Mega Kangaskhan, but it certainly makes Normal Pokemon in general less all-or-nothing, where they can either be really good and hard to counter or really bad and irrelevant because they have no niche to speak of.

What Pokemon do you think will rise in prominence or fall in importance?
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I like the meta, but I like this quote more:
Ghoul King said:
Look ma, I can make horrifying banners that scare people off instead of drawing them in! Aren't you proud of -NO NOT THE LASH
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Perseu said:
So... Are you really nerfing dragons? More than they already were?
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^ This. Give Normal a Flying resistance and the ability to hit Flying types SE instead IMO. (Even though that makes no logical sense, I feel like Flying-types deserve to be nerfed more than Dragon-types do.)

That said, Psychic might actually be a decent typing in this meta! (Also RIP Meloetta-Pirouette and Mega Lopunny.)
 
Perseu said:
So... Are you really nerfing dragons? More than they already were?
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Yep. My reasons are arcane and fairly unflinching, though if it proves to be the case that Dragons Are Never Used I'll probably switch it to Dark or shudder Electric.

^ This. Give Normal a Flying resistance and the ability to hit Flying types SE instead IMO. (Even though that makes no logical sense, I feel like Flying-types deserve to be nerfed more than Dragon-types do.)
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Not a thing that will be happening. Debuffing the Flying type makes no sense -it's already extremely well balanced, with whatever criticisms I have of it coming back to the fact that Flying's existence is a big contributor to Grass and Bug being unappealing defensive types.

(Also RIP Meloetta-Pirouette and Mega Lopunny.)
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Actually Mega Lopunny is terrifying in a meta where its two STABs can murder literally everything that isn't Poison typed. I made Poison resist Normal because Normal+Fighting+either Dark/Ghost or Scrappy is perfect coverage, and Mega Kangaskhan cleanly illustrates how powerful a combination it is. Mega Lopunny cuts out the middleman (It doesn't need Dark/Ghost) freeing up its movepool and letting its always use a STAB if it feels like it, giving it an appalling offensive edge over, again, Mega Kangaskhan, with more Speed. It may not get Parental Bond, so it's damage is somewhere above 2/3rds Mega Kangaskhan's, except Mega Kangaskhan is off-STAB when using Fighting moves and off-STAB when murdering Ghosts. (Though in fairness Mega Kangaskhan will normally be super effective against Ghosts, pulling a bit ahead in damage on them -assuming it's not a Sucker Punch build trying to hit a Will O Wisper) And Mega Lopunny can Power Up Punch on literally anything except Shedinja!

Meanwhile there's no Psychic priority move and you have to look to Deoxys, Mega Mewtwo Y or Mega Alakazam to get a Psychic type pulling ahead of it in Speed -in fact very little is faster than it and even less of that has Psychic coverage. Mega Lopunny has much more to fear from Mach Punch than it does from Psychic moves, bizarrely enough. That and Poison types, because they resist both its STABs and are STAB super effective.
 
Ghoul King said:
Yep. My reasons are arcane and fairly unflinching, though if it proves to be the case that Dragons Are Never Used I'll probably switch it to Dark or shudder Electric.



Not a thing that will be happening. Debuffing the Flying type makes no sense -it's already extremely well balanced, with whatever criticisms I have of it coming back to the fact that Flying's existence is a big contributor to Grass and Bug being unappealing defensive types.



Actually Mega Lopunny is terrifying in a meta where its two STABs can murder literally everything that isn't Poison typed. I made Poison resist Normal because Normal+Fighting+either Dark/Ghost or Scrappy is perfect coverage, and Mega Kangaskhan cleanly illustrates how powerful a combination it is. Mega Lopunny cuts out the middleman (It doesn't need Dark/Ghost) freeing up its movepool and letting its always use a STAB if it feels like it, giving it an appalling offensive edge over, again, Mega Kangaskhan, with more Speed. It may not get Parental Bond, so it's damage is somewhere above 2/3rds Mega Kangaskhan's, except Mega Kangaskhan is off-STAB when using Fighting moves and off-STAB when murdering Ghosts. (Though in fairness Mega Kangaskhan will normally be super effective against Ghosts, pulling a bit ahead in damage on them -assuming it's not a Sucker Punch build trying to hit a Will O Wisper) And Mega Lopunny can Power Up Punch on literally anything except Shedinja!

Meanwhile there's no Psychic priority move and you have to look to Deoxys, Mega Mewtwo Y or Mega Alakazam to get a Psychic type pulling ahead of it in Speed -in fact very little is faster than it and even less of that has Psychic coverage. Mega Lopunny has much more to fear from Mach Punch than it does from Psychic moves, bizarrely enough. That and Poison types, because they resist both its STABs and are STAB super effective.
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When Monotype Flying Hyper Offence (otherwise known as "birdspam") actually works in OU despite the existence of Stealth Rock, there might be a problem. (And in fact, it becomes a highly-successful team archetype in metas like Same Type Stealth Rock.) Plus Grass really does need a defensive buff, but then making Normal SE on Flying wouldn't really help that.
 
Monte Cristo said:
Isn't this a pet mod? This is just subjectively editing the typechart. Still qualifies as pet mod imo
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I think that basically depends on where you feel the cut-off point for custom changes is. The main difference, as far as I can tell, between a Pet Mod and an Other Metagame is that an Other Metagame makes as few types of changes as possible, with them having wide-ranging consequences, while a Pet Mod is more "let's tweak this move's BP and that Pokemon's stats and the duration of weather and how lethal Stealth Rock is and..."

I personally don't think this constitutes a Pet Mod -it's a small list of universal changes centering around one type- in part because if this constitutes a Pet Mod that seems to place the "line" sufficiently far to one end of that definition that it raises the question: what about all the other Other Metagames that make similarly small/large lists of custom changes? Is Stat Switch a Pet Mod because it has slightly different rules for Mega HP calculation than for base species HP? Is Haxmons a Pet Mod because it has to delineate the myriad different ways it removes randomness, even though it all comes back to a central principle? etc.

But to kick off some discussion: how well do you think Ambipom will do in Normal Balance? It's already usable in Standard, being fast and very hard hitting, but it's usually used for Fake Out+Last Resort in specific. Do you think it's role might expand, or will it just be better than ever at Fake Out+Last Resort abuse?
 
I believe the definition of a Pet Mod is something that doesn't make universal changes. This wouldn't count as a Pet Mod because it affects the entire Normal-type.

Ambipom's not usable in standards. It's kinda fast, but 100 Attack is weak thanks to power creep, and it has very little bulk. Any Ghost-type can come in and get a free turn on a FO + LR set, and now any Poison-type can as well. Please do the research.
 
But to kick off some discussion: how well do you think Ambipom will do in Normal Balance? It's already usable in Standard, being fast and very hard hitting, but it's usually used for Fake Out+Last Resort in specific. Do you think it's role might expand, or will it just be better than ever at Fake Out+Last Resort abuse?
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Kind of surprised to hear someone call Ambipom "usable in standard". I thought the general consensus here was that it's Spinda- level trash XD

That said, I like Ambipom, and I'd be happy to see it find a new niche in Normal Balance. It already had the distinction of the second strongest Fake Out in the game (after Mega Kangaskhan), and now that Normal can hit stuff super effectively, that superlative is actually going to mean something.

In fact, I just ran some calcs and... good gravy, this thing is going to be an absolute nightmare for Dragon types.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 198-234 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 283-338 (73.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 213-252 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What about Fairies?

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 257-304 (74.4 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 190-226 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It'll still have problems with Steel and Ghost types, to be sure, but it just might have the potential to shine in this metagame.
 
Dry Paratroopa said:
I believe the definition of a Pet Mod is something that doesn't make universal changes. This wouldn't count as a Pet Mod because it affects the entire Normal-type.
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That's like saying if I change every single ability that it's still not a Pet mod because it applies to the entirety of the pokemon that have those abilities. Specific type chart edits still count as pet mods imo.
 
I agree with Monte here. What makes it a petmod us that the changes are arbitary - you could of also given Grass a resistance to Normal and have Fairy not weak to Normal. Then there's the whole only Normal-types get SRlE hit from Normal moves. I understand this balance wise but its still ultimately an arbitary change. Even though they're global changes they're still arbritary. Haxmons has a specific rule that changes move effects. Stat switch has a specific rule that changes stats. This doesn't gave any rule that changes things. It has a philosophy, but all of the changes are arbritary.
 
The Reptile said:
I agree with Monte here. What makes it a petmod us that the changes are arbitary - you could of also given Grass a resistance to Normal and have Fairy not weak to Normal. Then there's the whole only Normal-types get SRlE hit from Normal moves. I understand this balance wise but its still ultimately an arbitary change. Even though they're global changes they're still arbritary. Haxmons has a specific rule that changes move effects. Stat switch has a specific rule that changes stats. This doesn't gave any rule that changes things. It has a philosophy, but all of the changes are arbritary.
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OK. Then why is Wonkymons XY an Other Metagame and not a Pet Mod? Don't tell me "it's because an RNG made the changes", it's still fundamentally arbitrary and a long list of specific changes. The only way you can summarize Wonkymon's changes is the very ambiguous and uninformative "all types are changed randomly". It's way worse than Normal Balance is about changing stuff arbitrarily, and nobody has ever questioned it's status as an Other Metagame that I've seen.

Ambipom's not usable in standards. It's kinda fast, but 100 Attack is weak thanks to power creep, and it has very little bulk. Any Ghost-type can come in and get a free turn on a FO + LR set, and now any Poison-type can as well. Please do the research.
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It's RU and I see it with surprising frequency in a variety of metas, including the very vanilla Doubles. It's not anywhere near as useful as Bisharp or the like, but it's not useless trash.

Note that I didn't say it was good. I said it was usable ie it's not absolutely worthless -it's not Farfetch'd, in short. It shows up in teams and not just teams made by players who are insane or so ignorant of the game as to not count.
 
Don't argue about the status of an OM/pet mod. It's really irrelevant to what the creator of said metagame is trying to discuss right now.

I'm going with the "changes are applied universally" rule to classify it as an OM, even though it has elements of a pet mod. Just leave it at that.
 
Holy crap.

CINCCINO!!!!!
cinccino.gif

Skill Link Cinccino can be a threat here. That Tail Slap will sting even the bulkiest of Dragons/Fairies. Of course, if you have swag, Cute Charm is usable too.

Also, Linnoone CAN work here. If you know when to use Belly Drum, it can actually sweep an entire team of dragons and fairies. :o
 
One point that only occurred to me in the last day (I actually thought this meta up around a month ago at this point) is that Stoutland might actually be useful on Sand teams rather than a novelty nobody uses, specifically as a lightning fast anti-Dragon Sand abuser. (The anti-Fairy aspect is honestly overshadowed by Excadrill) If for some reason your Sand team has a particular dislike of Dragons it might be worth implementing -or if you want anti-Fairy but for some reason you don't want to run Excadrill (I dunno, to reduce how vulnerable to Ground your team is?...) it might be worth running.

And yeah, Cinccino is already a Pokemon I see people try to use in Standard, but it's always just barely a disappointment. 115 Speed is plenty to overrun a lot of important Dragons and Fairies and 95 Attack is more impressive than it sounds when Skill Link Tail Slap is 125 BP of offense. (Miss chance though) And then it has Bullet Seed and Rock Blast providing coverage -only Steel types and certain Ghosts and Poison types are consistent walls to its STAB+strong coverage.
 
Sorry to double post, but I may have coded my own meta. For funsies.

Code: 
{
        name: "Normal Balance",
        section: "Other Metagames",
        ruleset: ['Pokemon', 'Standard', 'Team Preview'],
        banlist: ['Uber', 'Soul Dew', 'Gengarite', 'Kangaskhanite', 'Lucarionite', 'Mawilite'],
        onModifyMove: function(move, pokemon) {
            if (move.type === 'Normal' && if (!source.hasType('Normal')) onEffectiveness: function (typeMod, type) {
            if (type === 'Dragon', 'Fairy') return 1;
        },})
    }

Plus this requires the general type chart changes, though I'm not sure what the etiquette is on posting entire frickin' files like that. (And I'd rather be pleasantly surprised to learn there's a direct way to code minor changes to the type chart directly into this)

(This is the point at which a real coder tells me I ruined everything and this code actually causes servers to eat unborn babies)
 
Ghoul King said:
Sorry to double post, but I may have coded my own meta. For funsies.

Code: 
{
        name: "Normal Balance",
        section: "Other Metagames",
        ruleset: ['Pokemon', 'Standard', 'Team Preview'],
        banlist: ['Uber', 'Soul Dew', 'Gengarite', 'Kangaskhanite', 'Lucarionite', 'Mawilite'],
        onModifyMove: function(move, pokemon) {
            if (move.type === 'Normal' && if (!source.hasType('Normal')) onEffectiveness: function (typeMod, type) {
            if (type === 'Dragon', 'Fairy') return 1;
        },})
    }

Plus this requires the general type chart changes, though I'm not sure what the etiquette is on posting entire frickin' files like that. (And I'd rather be pleasantly surprised to learn there's a direct way to code minor changes to the type chart directly into this)

(This is the point at which a real coder tells me I ruined everything and this code actually causes servers to eat unborn babies)
Click to expand...
The typechart method would have been better, as I'm quite sure you can't layer onModifyMove and onEffectiveness. This is why I test my code a lot :P
 
It has to be something that causes Normal types using Normal moves to be super effective, rather than everything using Normal type moves, hence why I didn't just modify the type chart for that.

I suppose the more tedious method would be to grant every single Normal type move that behavior, if that's more functional. I can do that, it'll just be tedious and take up more filespace.

Aaaand then I realized Normalize is a problem.
 
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