Okay, after a long day at work and night without enough sleep, I've decided to come back to this thread one last time. I will not respond and continue conversations because it won't end up well. OU is the primary tier I play and I genuinely care about what happens during this suspect test. I may continue playing OU if Megagross stays but I'll likely take an extended break because regardless of if I'm wrong about him being too good for OU, his presence is a notable and heavy contributor to what I view as the extreme staleness of the current ORAS OU meta. It's for that reason, the fact that I care about the outcome, that I will try to present my argument once and as best as possible. If I continue to make shaky responses with poor grammar without much effort or thought I will get nowhere.
I'm going to very briefly address most of the bullet points in the suspect thread etiquette thread just because a ton of them actually apply to conversations that have been had the last several pages:
- Just because Megagross may lack checks/counters does not make it broken, though it's notable that the coil is true, that having checks/counters doesn't make it not broken/good for the meta
- We cannot assume that Megagross will stay in on its checks
- When making a prediction argument, we must be careful to use a risk/reward prediction argument
- Performance in Ubers is irrelevant
- This one is good: Do not discuss past/future tiering. The future of the meta with megagross is irrelevant. I assume this is not because it's actually irrelevant and nobody cares, it's because you can't pretend to know what will happen if megagross goes, so don't bother arguing about it
With that said I'll go on. I've brought up suspect threads from Greninja to Deoxys, skipping the obvious Salamance and I've read through them to discover generally speaking what the community in the past year or so has had to say about mons that we've perceived as broken for OU.
I've found, funnily enough, that much of the arguments arguing for Greninja to be banned revolved around its ridiculous coverage and massive overcentralization of the meta. Much of the anti-ban posts focused in its 4mss and inability to carry every move it needs to truly be counter/checkless. It's safe to say that Megagross's coverage isn't quite as good as Greninja's (what is tho?), but it's extremely overcentralizing and its coverage is absolutely insane. No it can't carry every move for every mon at once but can we stop pretending like 4mss is a bad thing? Teambuilding allows for you to make up what you're lacking if you're building around Megagross and he can pretty much choose his checks/counters by choosing his last 2 moves wisely depending on the team backing him up. Megagross is also sort of similar to Greninja, based on arguments against Greninja, in the sense that it's a solid offensive glue you can sort of just slap on a team (unless you have like 5 ground weaknesses or something) and it takes little to no effort to perform. I suppose you could say the same thing for plenty of other wallbreakers but let's look at popular wallbreakers. Specs Keldeo, albeit not as common as it once was, was always reliant on its prediction and making sure it picked the right move. It had to commit to whichever move it made. Same with Banded Azu. Zard-x relied on getting a boost in order to perform and its weakness to stealth rock was debilitating. While we're at it, Zard-y's weakness to rocks never even gets mitigated by evolution preventing it from truly dropping bombs even if it comes in safely because for its own longevity it was often required to roost up. Mega-Medicham's coverage was pretty much boiled down to STABs + Ice punch and worst yet, its speed tier was not enough for it to perform in the way that Megagross does. Orb Lati is on a timer and can only drop one Draco before its power is severely limited. Pinsir's weakness to stealth rocks hurt him as while he could severely dent teams, +2 is where he really put in work. Without the +2 any given team had solid switch-ins (especially when it had to run EQ for Aegi) and ways to deal with it. On top of that, its speed tier, while impressive, is not as great as Megagross's and it had to rely on quick attack more often than not. Banded scizor suffered the same thing as banded Azu and Keldeo. Now, I've only gone down from S-A on the viability ranking thread, picking out wallbreakers, but Megagross's bulk/defensive typing is noticeably better than most if not all of these mons and its faster than every single one. He just comes in and punches holes in a way that your average wallbreaker cannot. Then tack on its coverage (which mons like Keldeo and Medicham lacked, generally having one slot open for an HP or Icy Wind and Ice Punch for 'cham) and its secondary chances on its STABs, plus priority allowing it to pick off the faster foes it may come up against, especially if dented enough over the course of a match. Another argument against Greninja was the fact that it was unpredictable, you had to hope they didn't have the coverage that would hurt your shaky check/counter and Megagross is very similar in that right. You can pretend that it must run dual stab + hammer arm all you want but it's thought processes like that that get you fucked up by a dual stab + EQ, Ice Punch set. And to call that less viable is ridiculous because Megagross can slap on whatever he wants in those last 2 slots and rely on his team to patch up weaknesses for him. He isn't Greninja, no, Greninja had STAB on everything and practically every coverage type a 'mon could ask for....but I do see similarities.
Mega Mawile, I'm not going to expand on this one too much but this one went down in exactly the way anti-banners are arguing against. Mawile during the suspect test had at all times fire fang, Sub FP, and standard SD, PR, IH, SP all at once, that's what gave Mawile 0 switch-ins and counters, its ability to run 3 sets at once. Obviously Mega Metagross does not have every move it needs to destroy your team but don't pretend like it can't just pick its moves and demolish your "counters". And even if it doesn't, it generally requires a (defensive, sorry offense) core to get around safely and that to me highlights its affect on teambuilding and overcentralization. I have to run Slowbro with too much SpDef investment and defensive Lando in order to feel comfortable (as an example) and I shouldn't have to. Let's look at other S-tier threats: Keldeo...I can just slap Lati on the team and hope they don't catch me with a Icy Wind...and even if that happens I could give it enough investment to avoid 2hko from Icy wind after rocks and handle keldeo even better. Obviously it'll be shakier than I'd like it to be but I can generally rely on that. Sableye? Fairy that hits hard. Status absorber. Special wallbreaker. Etc. To me there is a very clear difference between preparing for Megagross compared to preparing for other top tier threats. (Perhaps I should note that MMaw's suspect obviously had more arguments than its sets being counterless, lol. The thing was a monster)
I'll keep Aegi simple. It had pseudo-720 stats (while Megagross has actual 700), it was the most overcentralizing thing in the universe, and the most common/best answers (bisharp and mandibuzz as examples) got absolutely demolished by the right set. Sounding familiar to anybody?
And even though I had a nice little nostalgia trip going through the Deo suspect thread, I won't touch on it because the roles are completely different and there really is no comparing Megagross to them. Unless he learns spikes in the future or something.
A few pages back there was a nice post where somebody posted all of the potential switch-ins to a standard MM, ZH, HA, GK set by Megagross. I'm not arguing against this person, I'm just gonna use their hard work to address checks/counters to the standard set:
Bisharp, Tran (potential scarf), Lando (potential scarf), Slowbro, Ferro, Chomp (potential scarf), Celebi, Drill, Scizor, Gyarados, Starmie, Mew, Skarm, Cress, Houndoom, Mandibuzz, Victini, Alomomola, Hydreigon (potential scarf), Talonflame
can all switch in on meteor mash.
Bisharp has to play 50/50s after is comes in, Tran's set can be scouted by damage/reveal of lefties and then Megagross user can respond by severely denting or even OHKOing the tran if packing EQ, Lando's set can also be scouted and can be busted up by Ice Punch. If scarf, it has to lock himself and either go for momentum, predict, or lock itself into EQ allowing mons like talonflame/gyarados to set up or Lati to defog, to name a few possible scenarios. Still looking in Megagross's favor generally. Slowbro can get bopped by GK if not packing enough SpDef but I maintain that 156+ SpDef Slowbro is bad. My opinion though. Ferro has to be extremely healthy because it can quickly get worn down and has to watch out for potential +1 HA. Chomp is similar to lando in that the set can be scouted and 2 of its STABs are easy to set up on in this tier if its choice-locked. There is also fire blast but that doesn't even 2hko and is also not a move you want to be locked into. Celebi which is a really good switch-in to the standard set also fears Ice Punch even if max/max def. If a +1 is achieved there's a 0% chance of it living a potential Ice Punch. Drill has to be scarf/in sand in order to offensively check Megagross. It also has the terrible predicament of being locked into EQ and if its sand, let's not forget that Megagross is a decent answer to the best sand-setters under certain circumstances (packing GK, not scarf ttar, etc) meaning it can generally eliminate sand setters before drill comes in, it can't risk dying on switch, and the team can try to stall out sand so that Megagross can come back in. Scizor is solid. Gyarados is pretty decent to, primarily fearing thunder punch which is extremely uncommon. But it also can get bopped. Starmie is similar to Gyara in that right but definitely forces Megagross out most of the time. Potential scald burn isn't worth it imo. Mew is not common in this meta for a reason (mmmm Keldeo set-up fodder) but I guess I'll give it to you for the standard set. Skarm can't do much if anything back, other than get a defog, whirlwind, set up rocks. Cress is not the world's most impressive mon but I suppose it's viable enough (can be severely dented if +1 is achieved). Ew Houndoom, ew Mandibuzz (Keldeo set-up fodder, nice n S-rank cores), Victini set can be scouted upon switch and scarf suffers from choice lock a LOT due to its coverage. Ew alo but I suppose it's true against common set. Hydreigon has to choose between being walled by a potential fairy or gaining momentum if scarf, if not it will get demolished. Talonflame vs MM + rocks is a dangerous game as a switch-in (dies after rocks depending on roll and without rocks it gets 2hko'd depending on roll).
Sableye-Mega, Gliscor (max def only), Weavile, Sharpedo-Mega
for switching in on ZH (skipped repeats because =/)
Sableye-Mega wins only if it switches in on ZH and even then Megagross can easily just leave, plus if Sableye has been weakened enough (45% with rocks up) MM still just kills it after it comes in, Gliscor must be max Def and dies to potential Ice Punch, Weavile ew but I guess it does force it out if switching in on ZH, then there's the ever uncommon Sharpedo-Mega who dies to GK, meaning it can't have mega-evolved yet so that it can get its speed boost.
I'm not trying to say that Mega Metagross has all of the moves to demolish all of the mons but what I'm saying is look at this. Look at these mons that can switch in and take him on. They're almost all shaky across the board, not good, or less viable sets.
At the end of the day Megagross has the freedom of not even having to predict. It just gets to punch holes through teams and leave when its threatened, gain information, utilize team support to help it, and nuzzle its way back onto the field (which is extremely easy with its bulk/defensive typing/resistance to hazards). This bulk which allows it to come in easily is a factor that adds to its wallbreaking power which is insane compared to other highly-ranked wallbreakers. Then combine that with its speed tier which is ridiculous in-and-of-itself let alone when factoring in its wallbreaking ability/defenses. Its coverage/movepool is what rounds it out and makes it a bit too much for OU in my honest opinion.
Ignoring the amazing secondary chances of its STABs, people like to bring up its low damage output for its STABs. Let's address that his typing allows for him to hit a significant portion of the meta neutrally and then let's do some math: MM becomes 180 neutrally on every neutrally-hit threat (that's 90 BP on resisted mons) and ZH becomes 160 on every neutrally-hit which is 80 BP on resisted mons. I don't call that particularly weak tbh. And yes I will admit that the sheer power of his moves compared to moves like Draco coming from Lati are not comparable but the difference between comparable wallbreakers to Megagross is the severe lack of weaknesses he has. He doesn't worry about a drop, being choice-locked, poor speed tier, bad defensive typing. He doesn't worry. He just comes in, punches things, leaves, and does it again. Obviously me and many other players have learned to deal with Mega Metagross rather effectively but it's what's required in order to do it compared to other threats that makes it too much. The risk/reward of running Mega-Metagross is almost always in favor of Mega-Metagross. You just run it and it performs, it takes little no skill to make it perform, it's overcentralizing, and it requires more than other top-tier threats to cover. It's just a bit too much for the current OU meta imo.
And even if I'm wrong, this meta is stale and boring and I think Megagross is a major, if not the major, factor.
